Support NeoGAF

[SomTervo]

I'm all for the equal opportunity side of the argument. The problem seems to be that women aren't necessarily turned on by the mirror-image of what excites men. I remember reading that Playgirl, at it's height, was subscribed to by more gay men than straight women. OTOH, I'm not aware of that many men reading romance novels though I don't have any numbers on it.

Probably because straight men would have been in charge of Playgirl.

No doubt similar to how an office of straight men probably worked on Quiet. I don't know if this is true, but I doubt Quiet's scenes would be the same if one of the senior staff were a woman.

The thing that makes the "b-b-but gais we need to talk about violence too" deflection is that violence is often contextualized down to a in video games and is the main interaction.

Bear in mind it's also a strawman argument.

Violence is its own problem in videogames (if one considers it a problem). The gender-bias thing is a totally different issue and they shouldn't be conflated.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Probably because straight men would have been in charge of Playgirl.

No doubt similar to how an office of straight men probably worked on Quiet. I don't know if this is true, but I doubt Quiet's scenes would be the same if one if the senior staff were a woman.



Bear in mind it's also a strawman argument.

Violence is its own problem in videogames (if one considers it a problem). The gender-bias thing is a totally different issue and they shouldn't be conflated.

I'm aware. Granted there are more attempts than ever to not force the player to use violence even in triple A games.

 

[Diffense]

Probably because straight men would have been in charge of Playgirl.

No doubt similar to how an office of straight men probably worked on Quiet. I don't know if this is true, but I doubt Quiet's scenes would be the same if one if the senior staff were a woman.

Yes...you would need more straight women creating games in order to create the right kind of sexy for them.

 

[SomTervo]

Yes...you would need more straight women creating games in order to create the right kind of sexy for them.

Yeah, and it's something which is definitely happening in the industry, which is great.

 

[Mooreberg]

No one has said that critics are infallible, the implication that creators are keeps coming up whenever someone states yet again "He can do what he wants."

Someone being able to do what they want has nothing to do with fallibility. Uwe Boll is a one man garbage plant. He gets to keep doing what he wants to the extent that he can get German taxpayers or some private equity sucker to finance it.

 

[Basketball]

Bit off topic but

Kudos to Kojima for creating memorable females I guess

People remember the short scenes with Meryl, Eva, the boss fights. Be damn sure people will remember Quiet for years to come. She might even be the most memorable new female character of the year "when the dust is settled".

Side note people keep bringing up the words and deeds tweet but far was that tweet from the hope there will be more Quiet cosplays tweet he did ?

 

[Fuchsdh]

Well, we disagree there. But on the whole, yes, I think Quiet is extremely embarrassing. If you can sit through her writhing around nearly naked in the rain as the camera pans around her ass and boobs and not feel embarrassed, I just don't understand. She is pure objectified garbage. Worse yet, Kojima apparently felt like there was an excuse for it all with that "you'll be ashamed of your words" bullshit. No, Kojima, you should be ashamed of your work.*

*(On Quiet. I like MGS as a whole.)

Well, that's what gets me. I don't care about objectifying your characters either, and if you wanna' have a character that's just there to pander to people who like nearly-naked women or men, more power to you. But pretending that there's some "deep reason" for it... it just comes off to me as completely distasteful and regarding your audience as idiots.

Just say "I wanted a cool character who I also found sexually attractive." You'd still get flack, but at least you'd be honest.

 

[BadAss2961]

...But she is!!! How do you not see this?

Every man in the game is stern, unobjectified, dressed realistically, and physically restrained (unless exhibiting anger - so 'manly') while the only woman in the game routinely lounges around near-naked, rolls in rain, wiggles butt for the player.

She is a professional soldier standing naked next to lots of professional soldiers who are fully clothed. And the only difference is the clothed soldiers are men.

Are people blind? I just can't believe what I'm reading ITT. Especially people who are one-and-done-ing the issue with horrid, ignorant drive-bys.

She's not one of them though. She's originally XOF, whose camouflage unit dresses similarly to and has the same abilities as her.

While this might add to your point that every female in the game is sexualized, the camo units are just randoms. Just like the female soldiers on Mother Base who are all dressed appropriately.

 

[WickedLaharl]

They don't give a rats about her actual motivations, her emotional journey in the game or her character or the arc she travels on.

Because her "development" (not sure i even want to call it that) is handled so poorly.

 

[captainpat]

Bit off topic but

Kudos to Kojima for creating memorable females I guess

People remember the short scenes with Meryl, Eva, the boss fights. Be damn sure people will remember Quiet for years to come. She might even be the most memorable new female character of the year "when the dust is settled".

Side note people keep bringing up the words and deeds tweet but far was that tweet from the hope there will be more Quiet cosplays tweet he did ?

Never underestimate the power of spite. This is the most talked I've seen a female character get talked about.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

One of the jokes of Raiden's character, a common joke, is that he is very feminine in appearance. So moments like this aren't meant for titillation. Not to mention just how short the segment is, the two are incomparable.

That's 100% open to interpretation, particularly when Raiden's entire existence is based on female focus testing. With how the flipping and sneaking around is framed, it's consistent with either interpretation.

Another thing to keep in mind with these conversations is attractive physical properties in different cultures. This isn't a comment on what is true or not in regards to "what women want", but a more feminine, androgynous man is absolutely considered attractive in Japan. There is some push-back here and there (though that's more based on personality), but it's still a widespread phenomenon. Meanwhile, big buff guys that may or may not be bald is a gay stereotype.

It's the opposite here.

 

[Curufinwe]

People who say they refuse to use her cuz they make them uncomfortable has gotta be joking or trolling. You barely see her during missions and you only see what she does in the chopper if you aim your camera at her. You can ignore her presence if you want to. She's an awesome Buddy and fun to use. Great backup too.

It is hard to tell if those posts are parody or not.

 

[Ekai]

Character was dumb. But in terms of too embarrassing to show people or play with people in the same room, she's not even in the same level as like bayonetta or some anime ass shmup

But Bayonetta is actually well written. And designed by a woman. And is in control of her own sexuality, ie sexually empowering (or sex positive) and not purely just an object like Quiet literally is. Like, Quiet is a shut and close case of a character designed as nothing more than a sexual object. She doesn't talk, blindly falls in love with her enemy because of stockholm syndrome, and dances sexually for you just because as a reward. Bayo has her own agency, Quiet does not.

 

[Tain]

Character was dumb. But in terms of too embarrassing to show people or play with people in the same room, she's not even in the same level as like bayonetta or some anime ass shmup

i find her way more embarrassing than bayonetta

 

[Crossing Eden]

That's 100% open to interpretation, particularly when Raiden's entire existence is based on female focus testing. With how the flipping and sneaking around is framed, it's consistent with either interpretation.

Another thing to keep in mind with these conversations is attractive physical properties in different cultures. This isn't a comment on what is true or not in regards to "what women want", but a more feminine, androgynous man is absolutely considered attractive in Japan. There is some push-back here and there (though that's more based on personality), but it's still a widespread phenomenon. Meanwhile, big buff guys that may or may not be bald is a gay stereotype.

It's the opposite here.

That is strange, but it's also hard to tell since Kojima is very influenced by the West. Although arguably that influence showed ore and more over time culminating in MGSV being the least anime influenced game of the series despite the mecha.

 

[Screaming Meat]

But Bayonetta is actually well written.

In what way is she well written?

 

[Sheriff_Battlesnake]

If only every Quiet was The Boss

 

[cosmicblizzard]

That is strange, but it's also hard to tell since Kojima is very influenced by the West. Although arguably that influence showed ore and more over time culminating in MGSV being the least anime influenced game of the series despite the mecha.

Not disagreeing there. I feel like Kojima's works are kind of divorced from cultural influence (in terms of differences between Japan and America) and more a product of his own mind beyond some Hollywood tropes here and there.

But I do feel in some way that he legitimately thought having Raiden running around naked was something "for the ladies". Whether he did it well or not, that's up for debate.

 

[The Technomancer]

In what way is she well written?

Insomuch as her characterization is consistent and it fits coherently with both her behavior and her visual design I'd say its "well written". Weather you find it compelling is a different question, but as a character I'd say she's well put together

 

[Screaming Meat]

But I do feel in some way that he legitimately thought having Raiden running around naked was something "for the ladies". Whether he did it well or not, that's up for debate.

You don't think it was more about humiliating him? That's pretty much what happens to Raiden for a substantial portion of the game.

Insomuch as her characterization is consistent and it fits coherently with both her behavior and her visual design I'd say its "well written". Weather you find it compelling is a different question, but as a character I'd say she's well put together

So just getting the basics right is considered "well written"?

 

[SarusGray]

Not disagreeing there. I feel like Kojima's works are kind of divorced from cultural influence (in terms of differences between Japan and America) and more a product of his own mind beyond some Hollywood tropes here and there.

But I do feel in some way that he legitimately thought having Raiden running around naked was something "for the ladies". Whether he did it well or not, that's up for debate.

women would definitely tell you otherwise.. ,-, it wasn't hot for me at all...

 

[MrBadger]

Character was dumb. But in terms of too embarrassing to show people or play with people in the same room, she's not even in the same level as like bayonetta or some anime ass shmup

I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with a sexualised character and I don't think Bayonetta is the way she is purely for fan service like Quiet is.

 

[Crossing Eden]

If only every Quiet was The Boss

Seriously wtf happened to the guy who made the Boss? We went from that and actually appropriate femme fatale spy parody Eva to a downward spiral of the representation of women.

Not disagreeing there. I feel like Kojima's works are kind of divorced from cultural influence (in terms of differences between Japan and America) and more a product of his own mind beyond some Hollywood tropes here and there.

But I do feel in some way that he legitimately thought having Raiden running around naked was something "for the ladies". Whether he did it well or not, that's up for debate.

It very much is. It would be a very strange nod to the audience of women not just at the time but in general.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

You don't think it was more about humiliating him? That's pretty much what happens to Raiden for a substantial portion of the game.

Yeah maybe, but doing handless cartwheels where your eyes are immediately drawn to Raiden's covered crotch (for a significant fraction of a second) leads me to believe otherwise. Guess if that was the case, they could have made it more explicit by having him cartwheel in slow motion and zooming in on his crotch during that time.

women would definitely tell you otherwise.. ,-, it wasn't hot for me at all...

Well, I have no stake in that fight. Just trying to make a logical conclusion on Kojima's mindset based on what we know. If Raiden's inception was intended female fanservice, then I feel like the scenes where he's naked with the "almost showing but not quite" tease were intended to be as well.

 

[The Technomancer]

So just getting the basics right is considered "well written"?

I mean, even major movies frequently suffer from inconsistent characterization, in the current landscape I wouldn't say its the lowest of bars. Should it be better? Obviously. But if we're grading on a curve Bayonetta does pretty well

 

[Screaming Meat]

Yeah maybe, but doing handless cartwheels where your eyes are immediately drawn to Raiden's covered crotch (for a significant fraction of a second) leads me to believe otherwise. Guess if that was the case, they could have made it more explicit by having him cartwheel in slow motion and zooming in on his crotch during that time.

I don't know many women who have given an indication that they get a lot out of staring at crotches

I'm pretty certain it was more about humiliating him and, by proxy, the player, who so desperately wanted to be the gruff badass, rather than the foppish oik. But hey, I'm not Kojima, so I could very well be wrong.

I mean, even major movies frequently suffer from inconsistent characterization, in the current landscape I wouldn't say its the lowest of bars. Should it be better? Obviously. But if we're grading on a curve Bayonetta does pretty well

I dunno. I find Bayonetta being held up as the line for well-written women (or otherwise) a bit off when we have an industry that has much better examples in its history: Mona Sax, The Boss, Ellie, Maxine Caulfield, Jade, Alyx etc.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

So just getting the basics right is considered "well written"?

IMO, consistency is the only thing that should be considered an objective measure of "good writing", and even that I'm not totally sure of as there are cases where inconsistent characterization may be effective (intent or not).

 

[igordennis]

So just getting the basics right is considered "well written"?

In gaming? It pratically is.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I don't know many women who have given an indication that they get a lot out of staring at crotches

Anecdotal evidence or not, female gaze is still very much a thing. Whether it's misreading the market or it actually is what the intended audience wants, it's still something that creator's utilize.

 

[sonicmj1]

So just getting the basics right is considered "well written"?

Well, she's being compared with Quiet, so...

 

[DrunkDan]

Would the people that feel embarrassed if someone came in whilst Quiet was on screen also feel the same if a similarly dressed woman was on screen during a film and somebody walked in?

I almost feel like the feelings seem to be exclusively related to gaming, possibly because it's accepted for film - and has been for a long time. Are the same people up in arms about scantily clad women in film? Are the GOT/true blood scenes causing the same ruckus?

Again, I'm not saying portraying women like that is right but I wonder why it seems to be a much bigger deal with games compared to other media. Do you think it's because there are enough well written females within film that it creates balance?

 

[rhandino]

One of the things that disturbed me a little about Quiet is that even in the scenes in which she is supposed to be enjoying herself while being "casually" sexy she doesn't seem to like to be in those situations in the first place anyway so that makes them, imho, pointless and instead of being empowering they seem more humiliating.

Something about her facial expressions and her body movements seems off to me and that's kind of what killed the rain scene for me when I saw it. idk

 

[cantthink9]

Quiet is awesome and yeah I like the fact that she's so sexy. It's a video game. Leave real world problems in the real world. Put a half naked guy in the game and call it a day. Don't ruin Quiet's awesome ass.

 

[SarusGray]

Yeah maybe, but doing handless cartwheels where your eyes are immediately drawn to Raiden's covered crotch (for a significant fraction of a second) leads me to believe otherwise. Guess if that was the case, they could have made it more explicit by having him cartwheel in slow motion and zooming in on his crotch during that time.



Well, I have no stake in that fight. Just trying to make a logical conclusion on Kojima's mindset based on what we know. If Raiden's inception was intended female fanservice, then I feel like the scenes where he's naked with the "almost showing but not quite" tease were intended to be as well.

ehhh I don't think Kojima at all intended that to be female fan service.

Quiet is awesome and yeah I like the fact that she's so sexy. It's a video game. Leave real world problems in the real world. Put a half naked guy in the game and call it a day. Don't ruin Quiet's awesome ass.

Sexualizing males the same way as females does nothing for the fight or battle.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Anecdotal evidence or not, female gaze is still very much a thing. Whether it's misreading the market or it actually is what the intended audience wants, it's still something that creator's utilize.

I was expecting a study, not TV Tropes! XD

IMO, consistency is the only thing that should be considered an objective measure of "good writing", and even that I'm not totally sure of as there are cases where inconsistent characterization may be effective (intent or not).

If you're judging "good writing" on consistency but find inconsistency can also be good, I'm not sure that's a viable way of measuring it. Hell, I'm not even sure you can.

In gaming? It pratically is.

I'm sorry, but I listed a handful of fairly well written (if not great) female characters a few posts up. We gotta have higher standards for that if we value the medium, otherwise why are we even debating this?

Well, she's being compared with Quiet, so...

Tallest dwarf though.

 

[igordennis]

Quiet is awesome and yeah I like the fact that she's so sexy. It's a video game. Leave real world problems in the real world. Put a half naked guy in the game and call it a day. Don't ruin Quiet's awesome ass.

Someone with an Ellie avatar saying this... I cant.

Edit: to above. Ok that was hyperbole but those examples you listed are the minority in the bigger picture. And i said pratically because i didn't really mean it.

 

[Ekai]

I dunno. I find Bayonetta being held up as the line for well-written women (or otherwise) a bit off when we have an industry that has much better examples in its history: Mona Sax, The Boss, Ellie, Maxine Caulfield, Jade, Alyx etc.

Sorry to say this but we women are varied as human beings. Bayonetta easily outclasses Quiet in terms of writing and actually has development, an arc, and I already went over one of her other positives as well, ie: being sexually empowering. She's not an object like Quiet is, she is designed to be in charge of her own self. A woman being sexually empowering in a video game? Yea, that's nice to see because the industry largely ignores that or does it in a very juvenile and male gaze manner. Men get plenty of power fantasies, women rarely do. Saying Bayo is well-written because of this does not at all degrade or dismiss other examples of well-written women in gaming. Beyond your examples (though Ellie is honestly horribly written and lacks all sorts of her own agency) there's the FeMC of P3P, Maya in the Persona 2 duology, really all the women of Pathologic, Kaine from Nier, Laura Bow from those early Sierra mysteries, Aya Brea from Parasite Eve, Rosa Blackwell from the Blackwell series, Alex Roivas from Eternal Darkness, etc. etc. it goes on and on and on.

 

[cosmicblizzard]

I was expecting a study, not TV Tropes! XD

I mean there's plenty of research papers on it as well if you want to search for them.

If you're judging "good writing" on consistency but find inconsistency can also be good, I'm not sure that's a viable way of measuring it. Hell, I'm not even sure you can.

I mean in the sense that inconsistent characterization can be intentional, which is often used with characters that have a very loose grip on their own identity, and can be great when done well. Hell, one of my favorite villains ever falls under this; a Joker-like character from Danganronpa that frequently gets bored of

Spoiler

her

personalities.

Bit harder to justify when it's not the intent, but it can still be unintentionally meaningful, maybe from a symbolic standpoint, maybe from a foreshadowing one, etc. That's purely a death of the author thing.

Everything else is subjective.

 

[Sushi Nao]

Quiet is awesome and yeah I like the fact that she's so sexy. It's a video game. Leave real world problems in the real world. Put a half naked guy in the game and call it a day. Don't ruin Quiet's awesome ass.

Mass-market pieces of media that millions are exposed to are pretty damn real-world

 

[SapientWolf]

The thing that makes the "b-b-but gais we need to talk about violence too" deflection is that violence is often contextualized down to a in video games and is the main interaction. Snake shooting a gun while wearing a military outfit doesn't look out of place, assassins don't look out of place, Drake shooting mercenaries doesn't look out of place, they're all explained and feel right. Quiet however, has such a flimsy explanation that has more holes than a a slice of cheese that it's incredibly out of place, which is common for sexual objectification in serious narratives.

MGS is full of oddly comical or out of place elements. The problem with how Quiet is handled is that the bizarre, overdone cheesecake isn't fun, likeable or entertaining enough to justify its dissonance with the rest of the narrative. So it comes off as creepy instead.

And honestly, it probably still would have went over fine if the game wasn't constantly ramming the players face in Quiet's boobs like a 40 hour motorboat. It's like, OK, we get the point. Even the DoA franchise is more subtle.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

(though I have heard people with sexism complaints about Bloodborne)

Wait what

Are you sure (Please keep in mind that 'political correctness' is used as dictum here)? I was lurking in many of those hot-topic threads and always had the impression that it was a one-sided discussion, because those who dared to express their personal opinion -which did not allign with the norm of being super-correct- received their brand mark almost instantly by the correctness police. That's why I'm avoiding those threads and won't even try to start a discussion here,

Yet here you are, posting inflammatory shit like:

because some folks start to get paranoid when it comes to topics like this. Once upon a time a male human being was either seen as a macho or a gentleman. Today it's either rapist or yea-sayer.

Uh-huh...
And of course the whataboutism:

We have more severe issues in the world than a video-game character's clothing and behaviour. For every Quiet there are hundreds and thousands of real-life females inflicting more harm to the female emancipation and equality movement than any fictional character could ever do.

I'm sure you're posting all of this in good faith though, right?

I was clearly not refering to this thread, but note this is a mind-game taken to the the extreme by the so-called activists on both sides. It's not about the exact wording but the interpretation of expressions. For example: when you answer to someone with: 'Holy shit', 'Jesus' 'What the fuck' you are intentionally putting strong emotions into an expression.

In discussions like these...one wrong word or phrase and everything shouts 'heretic', followed by the holy inquisition of low-level SJW. You can argue against this, but this is my gut-feeling about this.
Once again, I'm not refering to Gaf threads here, but I've seen enough threads (Gamergate)
where it was heading in this unhealthy direction.

...I see.

The scenario itself is clearly not realistic, that makes it in my opinion immune to criticism of its social structure and values

Are you serious?
No video game or even movie is really all that realistic. By that logic we couldn't criticize Hatred or blackface in old movies either.

 

[Screaming Meat]

Sorry to say this but we women are varied as human beings.

I am aware of this.

Bayonetta easily outclasses Quiet in terms of writing and actually has development, an arc, and I already went over one of her other positives as well, ie: being sexually empowering.

She definitely outclasses Quiet, I simply don't think she's an example of a "well written" character. Like, at all. As you point out, she's a power fantasy; a comic book character. She's two dimensional. It works for the game, no doubt, and there is absolutely a place for power fantasy characters in the cultural landscape, but I don't think that makes her "well written".

Saying Bayo is well-written because of this does not at all degrade or dismiss other examples of well-written women in gaming. Beyond your examples (though Ellie is honestly horribly written and lacks all sorts of her own agency) there's the FeMC of P3P, Maya in the Persona 2 duology, really all the women of Pathologic, Kaine from Nier, Laura Bow from those early Sierra mysteries, Aya Brea, Rosa Blackwell, etc. etc. it goes on and on and on.

Not played any of those myself. It makes me doubly concerned that Bayonetta would be held up as "well-written" considering the vast number of other much better examples out there to choose from.

 

[SarusGray]

Two questions about this.

1: Doesn't the existence of those first four games (though I have heard people with sexism complaints about Bloodborne)

Huh?

 

[Moonkid]

Would the people that feel embarrassed if someone came in whilst Quiet was on screen also feel the same if a similarly dressed woman was on screen during a film and somebody walked in?

I almost feel like the feelings seem to be exclusively related to gaming, possibly because it's accepted for film - and has been for a long time. Are the same people up in arms about scantily clad women in film? Are the GOT/true blood scenes causing the same ruckus?

Again, I'm not saying portraying women like that is right but I wonder why it seems to be a much bigger deal with games compared to other media. Do you think it's because there are enough well written females within film that it creates balance?

I think it largely has to do with how young video games are as a medium, especially compared to film. The conversation we're having today has already happened, still happening really, for films and hence we are influenced by feminist film theory. It may seem like a bigger deal because it's being discussed more but we're playing a sort of catch-up. And also the fact that this is a video game forum so we're going to discuss it more than the same issues in say comic books which is just as pervasive and demanding critique.

 

[Ekai]

She definitely outclasses Quiet, I simply don't think she's an example of a "well written" character. Like, at all. As you point out, she's a power fantasy; a comic book character. She's two dimensional. It works for the game, no doubt, and there is absolutely a place for power fantasy characters in the cultural landscape, but I don't think that makes her "well written".


Not played any of those myself. It makes me doubly concerned that Bayonetta would be held up as "well-written" considering the vast number of other much better examples out there to choose from.

I didn't say she's two-dimensional. I said she has development and an arc. Just because she's partially a power fantasy doesn't mean she can't have some depth to her. Is it the most depthful? No. I haven't been arguing that at all. But that combined with her being sex-positive in an industry that almost entirely lacks sex-positive women? It's refreshing to say the least. It's a huge step-forward for gaming honestly.

My point in mentioning that women are varied as human beings is that we can have multiple women who cover multiple gamets of the human experience. Being sexually-positive isn't a negative thing. It's far better than the alternative. There are vast amounts of examples for a reason is my point. There are many more I could have listed that I frankly didn't either.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

though Ellie is honestly horribly written and lacks all sorts of her own agency

Wait what

 

[ZombiePlatypus]

But Bayonetta is actually well written. And designed by a woman. And is in control of her own sexuality, ie sexually empowering (or sex positive) and not purely just an object like Quiet literally is. Like, Quiet is a shut and close case of a character designed as nothing more than a sexual object. She doesn't talk, blindly falls in love with her enemy because of stockholm syndrome, and dances sexually for you just because as a reward. Bayo has her own agency, Quiet does not.

Bayo also has humor and feels self-aware by hamming it up so much. Quiet on the other hand comes across like an animated sex-doll. Which, I don't think is inherently bad, had they handled her in a more forthcoming manner in a game that felt less self-important.

 

[kavanf1]

The thing that makes the "b-b-but gais we need to talk about violence too" deflection is that violence is often contextualized down to a in video games and is the main interaction. Snake shooting a gun while wearing a military outfit doesn't look out of place, assassins don't look out of place, Drake shooting mercenaries doesn't look out of place, they're all explained and feel right. Quiet however, has such a flimsy explanation that has more holes than a a slice of cheese that it's incredibly out of place, which is common for sexual objectification in serious narratives.

I'm not disputing that some of the Quiet scenes are daft, I said as much already. I think Kojima was aiming for romantic, sultry and mysterious with Quiet, but unfortunately fell well short of that in her execution - at least from a Western pov. Perhaps it's a cultural thing and from his perspective he absolutely nailed it, but then there comes an odd juxtaposition considering that this forum loves Japanese games so much: if we're pushing creators to dilute aspects of their culture to prevent offending anyone, we will end up with "games by committee" where every component of a game is a result of focus group testing and the end product is a bland, homogenous success. The very aspects that make Japanese games so great disappears.

Bear in mind it's also a strawman argument.

Violence is its own problem in videogames (if one considers it a problem). The gender-bias thing is a totally different issue and they shouldn't be conflated.

You'd be right if I was trying to conflate the two, but I wasn't, I was simply comparing them to highlight an inconsistency in how they are viewed. The fact that violence isn't reacted to in the same manner as sex in games is down to cultural acceptance, not because it's any better developed or refined than the medium's treatment of women. Killing in most games is utterly without consequences, which is entirely unrepresentative of reality.

My point being that (i) games are still an immature medium, and not every game needs to aim to be Citizen Kane to be enjoyed for what it is and (ii) the creation of gaming's version of Citizen Kane does not mean game creators need to stop making games with gratuitous sex or violence.

Ultimately, I say let the game creators get on with creating games according to their vision - we should feel free to criticise their output, but not to censor it because it offends our sensibilities.

 

[LPride]

Would the people that feel embarrassed if someone came in whilst Quiet was on screen also feel the same if a similarly dressed woman was on screen during a film and somebody walked in?

I almost feel like the feelings seem to be exclusively related to gaming, possibly because it's accepted for film - and has been for a long time. Are the same people up in arms about scantily clad women in film? Are the GOT/true blood scenes causing the same ruckus?

Again, I'm not saying portraying women like that is right but I wonder why it seems to be a much bigger deal with games compared to other media. Do you think it's because there are enough well written females within film that it creates balance?

Theres an incredibly strong undercurrent of insecurity and perhaps shame in the gaming community. Its why the Games are Art debate never stops going on, people inside the hobby want it to be viewed as legitimate by people outside of the hobby.

I think this is a ridiculous way to view your hobby (youll never see any fans of whittling insisting its just as legitimate as carving stone) but so many people crave that validation that anything viewed as diminishing gaming as an artform is immedaitely labeled the Worst Thing That Ever Existed, Ever.



Like, just look at the thread title. Regardless of your thoughts on Quiet do you really think shes the most embarrassing character in all of Videogame-dom? When characters like Ivy from Soul Calibur exist? Or the two heroines from Fear Effect? Or any other insanely ridiculous caricature of women (who isnt intended to be a caricature, somethign like the Sorceress from Dragons Crown is such an obvious parody it still blows me away people have problems with her). However, MGSV is a big game with lots of eyes on it, so people need to publicly, loudly, overreact in order to make sure gamings reputation isnt tarnished.

 

[Ekai]

Bayo also has humor and feels self-aware by hamming it up so much. Quiet on the other hand comes across like an animated sex-doll. Which, I don't think is inherently bad, had they handled her in a more forthcoming manner in a game that felt less self-important.

Mostly agreed, I suppose.

Wait what

You heard me. Ellie lacks agency. It's one of the biggest issues with LoU and it's writing. She's regulated to replacing the

Spoiler

fridged

character for Joel and that's it. Though the writing in that game does a disservice to literally everyone in it, not just Ellie.

Spoiler

Joel's entire character is "replace my lost loved one" and every side characters role barrels down to Joel talking to them about said lost loved one. The game does nothing but build up to the ending where Joel robs Ellie of her agency. He robs her of the very little character she ever had. Though he's not the only one guilty of this, her agency is robbed from her at every corner. On top of that it's distressing that the game relies so much on fridging women in particular.

I would never come close to including her in a list of well-written women.