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Digital Foundry Performance Analysis: The Division beta (PS4 Vs. Xbox One)

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
It is clearly not that simple, but with architectures being so close for both consoles (and PC like), expectations of direct scalability are higher than ever.
CPU: advantage XB1 by a mere 10% clock speed (available cores are now the same)
GPU: advantage PS4 by around 40% overall, but also on a much higher amount in other terms
RAM/ Architecture: Advantage PS4 in terms of simplicity and unified high speed GDDR5
SDK: Advantage PS4 (as reported by devs)

I get the power advantages the PS4 has, i dont need to be told. that myself...
Let's make it a fun comparison.
It's like if... say Andy and Phil (all similarities to existing persons is purely coincidental) are very thirsty, and each bring their own cup at school to drink at the cafeteria fountain. Andy brought a 6oz cup, while Phil only brought a 4oz cup. A teacher then tells Andy that he should only fill his cup up to 4oz, because that's only fair.
Another teacher tells him that 5oz is ok, but that he really should be happy to get 5 and he better not brag about it!
This whole time, Andy is wondering why he can't get a full cup...

:)

I don't get the comparison....

A better comparison would be that Andy brought a 6oz cup and got told he could only get 4oz because Phil had a 4oz cup and got his cup filled to the top.

They both got the same amount, and its only in one situation because every other time, Andy and Phil could fill theirs up, even though they got unequal amounts in the end of 6oz and 4oz respectively
 

EGM1966

Member
every time it ends up arguing over how many more pixels has a version instead of the other, but what really matters is that the game is finally a good product of Ubisoft, that all this waiting was not in vain and that I expect dozens and dozens of hours of fun with my friends.

IMHO
It is a "face off" and the culture fostered last gen with these. Not my favourite thing but it's like when similar models of cars are compared and every little detail of difference and potential advantage called out.

Not sure what else people expect from a Vs comparison? The goal isn't too be "we're all happy" it's to point out differences and by the nature of the beast those will mainly focus on better/worse differences.

The issue in this thread isn't pouring over pixels its conspiracy theory arguments and arguing over what devs should/shouldn't do with their development budgets and console war nonsense.

The actual pouring over fps and tearing and textures is 100% correct for this thread.
 

Ombala

Member
Heh, anyone remember last generation? Xbox 360 versions of games were almost always better than the same game on PS3 thanks to the complicated Cell processor and weak RSX. In order to achieve parity, additional time and resources needed to be spent on the PS3 version of the game. It was SIGNIFICANTLY more challenging to exploit the PS3 hardware efficiently and get it up to snuff. When developers DID actually achieve great results on PS3 these releases were celebrated. Dead Space, Burnout Paradise, and the like were all basically identical on PS3 and Xbox 360.

So why are we seeing people become so angry this generation when developers have to pour more time and money into an Xbox One version of a game in order to get decent results? The console is trailing behind PS4 in sales, is less powerful, and requires more engineering effort - a situation nearly identical to PS3 and Xbox 360.

Now, one could argue that PS3 had more potential over 360 due to its CPU but taking advantage of that would require more resources than it takes to exploit the architectural Xbox One issues.

It's certainly interesting to see the reactions here and compare them to the same topics from ten years ago.
I don't get the point of this post. PS4 is stronger than XB1 by a big margin.
Last gen PS3 could be more impressive then 360 if utilized it right, something thats not the case for XB1 this gen.
 

onQ123

Member
based on this pic ps3 is more powerful then ps4, lol. even some mulitplatorm games that lead on ps3, were better on 360.

PS4 has a much more powerful GPGPU & the 7th CPU core is now unlocked so no.

Xbox 360 on the other hand only had a few more gflops on the GPU side & only a 1/3 of the CPU flops.
 

Ghazi

Member
Just because the PS4 has more power doesn't mean that the devs HAVE to take advantage of it. This is how they've made the game and if it runs and looks about the same on both platforms then that's how it is. If they find the time and want to put the effort in some use of the extra power (we already know that PS4 maintains its frame rate a bit better than the One), then that's awesome but it shouldn't be expected from every release. People should just get excited for games and not console wars.
 

onQ123

Member
Just because the PS4 has more power doesn't mean that the devs HAVE to take advantage of it. This is how they've made the game and if it runs and looks about the same on both platforms then that's how it is. If they find the time and want to put the effort in some use of the extra power (we already know that PS4 maintains its frame rate a bit better than the One), then that's awesome but it shouldn't be expected from every release. People should just get excited for games and not console wars.

When the PS4 has a better memory setup & more powerful GPU that's in the same family as the GPU that's in the Xbox One devs damn near have to go out of their way not to have a better game on the PS4.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
I don't get the point of this post. PS4 is stronger than XB1 by a big margin.
Last gen PS3 could be more impressive then 360 if utilized it right, something thats not the case for XB1 this gen.
As I said after, it has little to do with power and more to with resource management. XO and PS3 both require more time, money, and effort to use well.
 

AlStrong

Member
As I said after, it has little to do with power and more to with resource management. XO and PS3 both require more time, money, and effort to use well.

There are certainly memory considerations as both systems have roughly similar amounts for game titles, so one console sporting +40% pixels means a non-insignificant amount of RAM allocation on there.
 

Conduit

Banned
CPU: advantage XB1 by a mere 10% clock speed (available cores are now the same)

According to previous readings, Xbone can use 80% of 7th core, while PS4 can use full 7th core. And also problem for Xbone CPU is bigger OS overhead because "multi-OS" stuff.
 
There are always so many projections in this kind of thread, and unknown information, and that's what bothers me in these circuitous arguments that ultimately lead nowhere. The main issue is you all don't know how each game has set up their engines, so there can be little in terms of direct comparisons that allow you to see whether each system has been maxed out. You just have a general pattern to point to, which is somewhat valid. That pattern of multiplatforms performing at 1080P/30fps for PS4 and lesser on XB1 doesn't explain away the examples on XB1 from Forza 6, ROTR to Quantum Break which is already confirmed at 1080p. So that pattern of games that XB1 can't run at 1080p, it gets disrupted by these examples of great graphics/performance on XB1...we have to consider that a lot of the games being brute forced on PS4 at 1080p and reduced to 900p on XB1 could probably be examples of engines not optimized on XB1's memory system, and examples where better engine tech will improve graphics and performance on both systems. I hope and know we're not two years in and already tech has maxed out.

All that being said, I understand if the point of this thread is to objectively find out which system runs the game better and then to arrive to that conclusion and make the recommendation based on that. In that case we could end the thread in one page. PC if you can afford it, and consoles are practically even. But to drag this out into pages and pages of arguments is really just about one side subjectively getting what it wants out of the discussion.

My point is ultimately, we haven't seen the most that either system can do yet, so it's too much of a stretch to say that any game handicaps any architecture. What we can say is that engines will continue to work better with the 8-core CPUs, memory management and programming techniques will continue to evolve on both architectures, and as time allows.

So, for me, this thread is just about confirmation bias. Those wanting more on PS4 want proof that their hardware is the winner. If you just played your own version of it, and realized that it looks great and performs well, you wouldn't need to be worried about the other version. you also have no ownership over any private entities' developing decisions, you cannot frame Ubisoft or Massive's development decisions unless you are a stakeholder, at which point you wouldn't give two shits about a 40% difference in ROPs on console tech. Moreover, all that this thread and threads like it ultimately are geared at doing is taking a shit on developers, a shit on publishers, a shit on the hobby you are supposedly so in love with, a shit on XB1 fans, and voicing your own point of view for superiority/argumentation/condescension reasons.

Again, if the only basis for threads like these were to talk about technical comparisons and proclaim the winner and make a recommendation on that basis, this thread could be over in one page. Instead there are pages and pages of hot air over things that don't actually exist.
 

thelastword

Banned
I hope that the PS4 gets as big as the PS2, forcing third party devs to develop exclusively for Sony.
That's not even necessary, XB1 owners can have the games too, it's just that equal allocation of time and resources should be a priority. Some current development results even suggest that PS4 don't even get a valid fraction of development, much less than the XB1 in some instances, which is when we get something like RE-R2 (same resolution worse performance). So yes, something is awry here with some of the current development paradigms.

There are many factors to consider though, a valid solution would be to develop on the best hardware and have that running as best as you can, then scale down on lower end hardware within acceptable performance parameters, but clearly that's not happening in many scenarios. PS4 seems to be eeking out as the best platform just by bruteforce in many side by side cases, we hardly see a tangible difference in asset detail in many scenarios just the standard resolution and framerate advantages on PS4, with the occasional AO/AF/AA uptick every now and then.

Clearly there are always devs which do more than others and have a good development plan for all platforms which they engage, Rocksteady did an excellent job on each piece of hardware, AK looked great on both systems with highly detailed assets with performances and rez differences to highlight hardware differences, perhaps hindered by UE3 and it's high CPU utilization, but through that you could see a dev worth it's salt on the multiplat dev turf. 4A is another.......

I feel somehow that there are too many misc elements and deals which affect current multiplat results or even development; marketing deals are one, it's money on the table or money the dev or publisher won't have to spend directly, so they give a bit more love with the contracted party or make sure that nob gets due attention or is slobbered adequately. It's not as black and white as some people will have you believe, that's why when that Ubisoft guy said their policy "was to avoid debates and stuff", I'm glad that that came out the way it did, because too many are quick to call persons conspiracy theorists...lacing the dev world as all hardworking people, or "they did the best they could" as a response to mediocre or "not good enough results"....Well I'll tell you this, "everybody is hardworking and every development process was veritably fulfilled" is hardly the case in many many many projects across many industries, gaming development is certainly not the outlier.

In any case, there are too many reasons why we get the results we do with released games, especially when they're inconsistent and blatant as opposed to prevailing efforts, we should call for better relations between producer and devs. Quality assurance should also be inclusive of devs using the best of the hardware they have and meeting standards relative to each piece of hardware in development, yes PS4, XB1 Wii, no piece of hardware should be gimped with a generalized approach.

The way I see it, it seems only games developed separately or through good technical studios gets good results on all systems. I'm looking at ROTR and I wish it was Nixxes handling development of that over CD, they have always done better than CD at their own game (technically). So I have no doubt they would make a better port of ROTR on PS4. I also look at SF5 and Tekken 7 and ask if these games were on all platforms would they look as good, T7 especially, the answer may be no and that's a revelation since that fits well with your sentiment on the issue, but I still maintain that all persons can enjoy the games, don't give me a generalized console effort, give me a quality PS4 release, a quality XB1 release a quality Wii release commensurate with what their specs can achieve. Current development paradigms have to be changed and bolstered for the better.

We are long past the days when it was anywhere near feasible for developers, and well, it hasn't been worth the resource investment on doing per console asset levels (in clear terms, putting tons of env. artist tech and QA resources for 1/3 audience vs. using it to create content for the whole audience. Not to mention that it doesn't matter for >95% of the audience). There are of course ways of automating this and using the lodX/HQ/PC models/textures, but even then it generally isn't worth the effort. The rising budgets are already hindering games and teams massively, and for the sake of actually keeping the industry of healthy, it's better if developers would rather try to scale down (which they, in some ways are). It used to make sense when games weren't as complex, hardware/software-side varied a lot between consoles, and the teams much smaller, but again, it's completely unrealistic for today's challenges on the development side (especially when the bulk of it just scrambling to make games technically feasible at all, and make the experience smooth for the majority of users, which as this generation has proven, is a challenge in itself).
Aren't there more middleware programs available now than anytime before, pre fab assets (art, gpu rendering tech) that makes the life of devs much easier than it's ever been. I keep hearing of how hard things are, mostly budgetary/financial, but there have been a lot of improvements to how quickly a game can me made in 2016 too. I'm talking both time-wise and finance-related.

I remember a time when devs had to spend eternal hours making sound assets, art development assumed a mortar and pestle type approach, coding was certainly more janky with crap compilers and syntax hell. With all of these high level OOL's of today, I think we've come a long way with how easier things are...... Imagine a current gen (new age) dev having to write an entire language (GOOL), or developing their own engine from scratch as well, yes, things are much easier now in many instances....

Talking about QA, with big budget games like Unity, Fallout4, is that the right approach? Lots of money, more bugs, worse performance, more useless jank. QA? What does that even mean in 2016......I've seen many lower budgeted games with much more polish and quality than many big budget AAA games.........I'm talking about visuals and performance. Too much money wasted on snoop dogg features, marketing gimmicks, QA that fail and fail. You have to admit a lot of AAA games budgets are wasted.
 
I wonder how many of the people bitching about parity not taking advantage of the PS4's power have ever laughed at a PC gamer for being critical of consoles' technical limitations.
 

Conduit

Banned
XB1 owners can have the games too,

9QzkAr7.png



Just kidding! :D
 

Inuhanyou

Believes Dragon Quest is a franchise managed by Sony
I wonder how many of the people bitching about parity not taking advantage of the PS4's power have ever laughed at a PC gamer for being critical of consoles' technical limitations.

I'm sure there are many.

There were a hell of a lot for the Witcher 3 anyway.

It was the same for last gen when PC's got basic up ports of 360 and PS3 games.

"The money is with consoles, you should not expect a different game for PC"
 

Intrigue

Banned
There are always so many projections in this kind of thread, and unknown information, and that's what bothers me in these circuitous arguments that ultimately lead nowhere. The main issue is you all don't know how each game has set up their engines, so there can be little in terms of direct comparisons that allow you to see whether each system has been maxed out. You just have a general pattern to point to, which is somewhat valid. That pattern of multiplatforms performing at 1080P/30fps for PS4 and lesser on XB1 doesn't explain away the examples on XB1 from Forza 6, ROTR to Quantum Break which is already confirmed at 1080p. So that pattern of games that XB1 can't run at 1080p, it gets disrupted by these examples of great graphics/performance on XB1...we have to consider that a lot of the games being brute forced on PS4 at 1080p and reduced to 900p on XB1 could probably be examples of engines not optimized on XB1's memory system, and examples where better engine tech will improve graphics and performance on both systems. I hope and know we're not two years in and already tech has maxed out.

All that being said, I understand if the point of this thread is to objectively find out which system runs the game better and then to arrive to that conclusion and make the recommendation based on that. In that case we could end the thread in one page. PC if you can afford it, and consoles are practically even. But to drag this out into pages and pages of arguments is really just about one side subjectively getting what it wants out of the discussion.

My point is ultimately, we haven't seen the most that either system can do yet, so it's too much of a stretch to say that any game handicaps any architecture. What we can say is that engines will continue to work better with the 8-core CPUs, memory management and programming techniques will continue to evolve on both architectures, and as time allows.

So, for me, this thread is just about confirmation bias. Those wanting more on PS4 want proof that their hardware is the winner. If you just played your own version of it, and realized that it looks great and performs well, you wouldn't need to be worried about the other version. you also have no ownership over any private entities' developing decisions, you cannot frame Ubisoft or Massive's development decisions unless you are a stakeholder, at which point you wouldn't give two shits about a 40% difference in ROPs on console tech. Moreover, all that this thread and threads like it ultimately are geared at doing is taking a shit on developers, a shit on publishers, a shit on the hobby you are supposedly so in love with, a shit on XB1 fans, and voicing your own point of view for superiority/argumentation/condescension reasons.

Again, if the only basis for threads like these were to talk about technical comparisons and proclaim the winner and make a recommendation on that basis, this thread could be over in one page. Instead there are pages and pages of hot air over things that don't actually exist.

1080 is one of the things to look at, textures/details is the key.

DF has shown many times that the xbox one need lower resolution to have "same" graphics to PS4, thats not the issue, even in this thread you see the PS4 appears to have nicer/smoother details. So those PS4 fan boys should be happy i guess.


My issue is, Parity is just another "leave no kid behind" mentality, everyone gets a trophy.

Where does it end? PC gamers get 1 graphic setting?
 
I hope that the PS4 gets as big as the PS2, forcing third party devs to develop exclusively for Sony.

If I were you, I would pressure Sony into going even further by releasing their titles exclusively on your console : Contact their customer service department and provide them the serial number, they'll probably escalate the issue to Kaz and make sure nobody else enjoys the futur title...
 

_machine

Member
Aren't there more middleware programs available now than anytime before, pre fab assets (art, gpu rendering tech) that makes the life of devs much easier than it's ever been. I keep hearing of how hard things are, mostly budgetary/financial, but there have been a lot of improvements to how quickly a game can me made in 2016 too. I'm talking both time-wise and finance-related.
A lot of AAA companies rely on proprietary engines to create the "best possible experience" so that's a no. And even with the likes of UE4, game development is still extremely hard (hell, going back half a year it still felt like the engine had years of work ahead to support actual 100-man productions). Middleware in general is also very, very complicated matter (in likes of Enlighten or Umbra etc.), but while they can be helpful, it's never anything close to easy. Games "can" be made faster, but the complexity of AAA titles in rendering for example is still rising much faster than the quality of tools.

I remember a time when devs had to spend eternal hours making sound assets, art development assumed a mortar and pestle type approach, coding was certainly more janky with crap compilers and syntax hell. With all of these high level OOL's of today, I think we've come a long way with how easier things are...... Imagine a current gen (new age) dev having to write an entire language (GOOL), or developing their own engine from scratch as well, yes, things are much easier now in many instances....
I can't really speak about those days without experience, but I think in general it's a matter of "you win some, you lose some". Some things are much easier, whilst other problems have arisen that weren't even in the cards back those days.

Talking about QA, with big budget games like Unity, Fallout4, is that the right approach? Lots of money, more bugs, worse performance, more useless jank. QA? What does that even mean in 2016......I've seen many lower budgeted games with much more polish and quality than many big budget AAA games.........I'm talking about visuals and performance. Too much money wasted on snoop dogg features, marketing gimmicks, QA that fail and fail. You have to admit a lot of AAA games budgets are wasted.
Sure, I won't even pretend that there isn't a lot of waste in the budgets, but then again "marketing gimmicks" are thousandfold more worth the investment compared to some asset details that 99% of the audience won't even care about. I'd rather not even comment on the QA, but having shared beers with engineers working on some of these titles it's not something you can reduce to a couple of sentences (nor is it definitely "lack of QA"). Sorry I can't give a longer answer, but I just feel that I really shouldn't spend so much time lately on forums when I'm already working full-time in a new city etc.
 

blue wing viper

Neo Member
360 had the better GPU and was easier to develop for due to the more efficient architecture, the PS3 however had the far superior CPU, and as a result had a higher overall flop count (GPU+CPU) than the 360, though naturally that doesn't tell the full story. With the PS4 that performance gulf is extended in a bigger way, where the PS4 has the better GPU by an appreciable margin, and near enough the same CPU, it also happens to have the superior architecture and is easier to develop for. It's one of the reasons it's a bit more surprising when certain multi platform games are so similar in visual parity or performance. Having said that, I don't think it's necessarily the norm with some of the bigger titles (Witcher 3, Arkham Knight, COD, Battlefront, MGSV etc all show otherwise). Ubisoft in particular seem to gravitate more towards it.

But is it really surprising? I still say the gap was bigger last gen even though the ps3 at the core was more powerful due to the cell alone. So how does that make sense people may ask?

....because the the GPU that was put into the 360 on release was a beast for its time. As a matter of fact I think when it first came out it was on par or slightly ahead of the latest cards out on PC.

Couple the fact that devs couldn't even "reach" the full potential of the cell and therefore the ps3 was just "dead weight". While this gen the Xbox One has a slightly faster cpu with the ps4 having a slightly better gpu.

The big memory space of gddr5 (ps4) vs. small space of speedy esram & big space of ddr3 (XOne) seems to be the factor. My point is that I feel that there is much more flexibility for devs to work with DDR3 and ESRAM this gen with the X1 than they had with the Cell which was a pain in the a**. So again I don't find it surprising at all when devs really focus in on optimizing X1 multiplats.

A great example of this is Mad Max where there was true parity. Avalanche did a great job with that game and optimized the X1 well which actually according to DF edged the ps4 version of that game.
 

Rembrandt

Banned
Holy moly. I wonder how many think the same but don't dare to say it.

We have had several threads with similar sentiments. We had people seriously arguing that competition wasn't necessary in gaming and Sony should be the only console makers.

Is there a reason for this?


If the game can be made for both without hurting gameplay I see no reason for wanting this. But as far as the Xbox One holding back 3rd party devs from making games that take advantage of the DS4 for gameplay I hope PS4 install base get big enough that devs can try new gameplay ideas without worrying about having to make the game work on other platforms.

You basically asked for the same thing, lmao.
 
As I said after, it has little to do with power and more to with resource management. XO and PS3 both require more time, money, and effort to use well.

Even after all the Dev-Kit updates and the updated Pix-Tool for the ESRAM optimization...is it really that much more difficult and costly to develop for the XB1 vs. PS4?

Layers of Fear dev announced they've got their game running at 1080p/30fps on the XB1 and they didn't use the 7th core.

Do we have any recent examples of devs complaining about developing for the XB1 & extra cost?
 

_machine

Member
Layers of Fear dev announced they've got their game running at 1080p/30fps on the XB1 and they didn't use the 7th core.
Well they did use Unity, so probably not the best case to say anyway. Sure, it's not hard to find performance differences when working with a middleware on the platforms, but at the same time it's far too complex of a matter for these kinds of generalizations. Sure, XBO can be a bit more likely to be harder to write in certain situtations, but notice how vague that even sounds? There's scenarios where the platforms will behave nigh identically and scenarios where you have do stuff from the scratch for both platforms. Generally though, I wouldn't say there any noticeable cost differences just in development.
 

krang

Member
Let's make it a fun comparison.
It's like if... say Andy and Phil (all similarities to existing persons is purely coincidental) are very thirsty, and each bring their own cup at school to drink at the cafeteria fountain. Andy brought a 6oz cup, while Phil only brought a 4oz cup. A teacher then tells Andy that he should only fill his cup up to 4oz, because that's only fair.
Another teacher tells him that 5oz is ok, but that he really should be happy to get 5 and he better not brag about it!
This whole time, Andy is wondering why he can't get a full cup...


I get the power advantages the PS4 has, i dont need to be told. that myself...


I don't get the comparison....

A better comparison would be that Andy brought a 6oz cup and got told he could only get 4oz because Phil had a 4oz cup and got his cup filled to the top.

They both got the same amount, and its only in one situation because every other time, Andy and Phil could fill theirs up, even though they got unequal amounts in the end of 6oz and 4oz respectively

What the actual fuck.
 

Journey

Banned
"Who cares if this game looks and plays good on my console? I will only buy the game if it looks notably worse on a console that I don't even own!"


giphy.gif



The game could look amazing, BUT... if it looks the same on Xbox One, then damn, the game is suddenly not good enough and cries of parity spread throughout the land lol.
 

Pif

Banned
I get the power advantages the PS4 has, i dont need to be told. that myself...


I don't get the comparison....

A better comparison would be that Andy brought a 6oz cup and got told he could only get 4oz because Phil had a 4oz cup and got his cup filled to the top.

They both got the same amount, and its only in one situation because every other time, Andy and Phil could fill theirs up, even though they got unequal amounts in the end of 6oz and 4oz respectively

Phill will just stand in the rain and get the remaining 2oz from the cloud.
Couldn't resist
[/
 

omonimo

Banned
But is it really surprising? I still say the gap was bigger last gen even though the ps3 at the core was more powerful due to the cell alone. So how does that make sense people may ask?

....because the the GPU that was put into the 360 on release was a beast for its time. As a matter of fact I think when it first came out it was on par or slightly ahead of the latest cards out on PC.

Couple the fact that devs couldn't even "reach" the full potential of the cell and therefore the ps3 was just "dead weight". While this gen the Xbox One has a slightly faster cpu with the ps4 having a slightly better gpu.

The big memory space of gddr5 (ps4) vs. small space of speedy esram & big space of ddr3 (XOne) seems to be the factor. My point is that I feel that there is much more flexibility for devs to work with DDR3 and ESRAM this gen with the X1 than they had with the Cell which was a pain in the a**. So again I don't find it surprising at all when devs really focus in on optimizing X1 multiplats.

A great example of this is Mad Max where there was true parity. Avalanche did a great job with that game and optimized the X1 well which actually according to DF edged the ps4 version of that game.
You kidding me now? For a bunch of titles with parity now the consoles hardware it's just slightly more powerful? CPU difference are comparable to the GPU difference? Uh. By the way Mad Max it's a desert scenario. Just put on it the same amount of vegetation of Just Cause and 900p it's inevitable.
 

Rembrandt

Banned
I want every version besides the PC one to get canceled. We can't support this practice. I'm not spending $60 for my game to look like anyone else's.
 

Journey

Banned
I want every version besides the PC one to get canceled. We can't support this practice. I'm not spending $60 for my game to look like anyone else's.



Eff that, any version that is compromised to run in less hardware than my future quad SLI Pascal GPUs should be cancelled!! screw all that scaling noise!
 

onQ123

Member
You basically asked for the same thing, lmao.


Nope I only hope that the PS4 install base is big enough to support new gameplay ideas from 3rd party devs.

If the game can be played on Xbox One & PS4 without any change to game play I see no reason for wanting it to be PS4 only.

IMU & Touch controls are better than analog & face buttons for a lot of different things so devs should be able to come up with new gameplay ideas that use them & not be held back by the fact that Xbox One controller don't support them.

Hopefully NX will be successful & feature a controller with IMU & touch also.
 
People simply miss the days when devs use to push every piece of hardware as best as they could, no stop at this point because we have done enough. We need more "there's still time, let's push things a bit further"........"We are hitting a solid framerate on this platform, lets increase asset detail", spending lots of time optimizing only one platform to get it on par with the most powerful platform is not ideal, have a team optimize and continue working on the other as well .
When were these "days" you are talking about?
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Even after all the Dev-Kit updates and the updated Pix-Tool for the ESRAM optimization...is it really that much more difficult and costly to develop for the XB1 vs. PS4?

Layers of Fear dev announced they've got their game running at 1080p/30fps on the XB1 and they didn't use the 7th core.

Do we have any recent examples of devs complaining about developing for the XB1 & extra cost?
Yeah, as if using the 7th core is somehow going to allow them to hit 60fps. I highly doubt THAT is the bottleneck. It was foolish for them to even MENTION it.

The real issue with Layers of Fear is that it runs on Unity. Locking at 30fps is probably the better choice as every single OTHER Unity console title that runs with an unlocked frame-rate is so unstable that it nearly ruins the experience.

Just because both consoles can reach 30fps locked does NOT mean PS4 could hit 60fps - especially when using something like Unity.
 
Saw Biscuit's 60fps PC gameplay, was envious, after playing hours of 30fps on PS4.
Came right off days of playing The Witness at 60fps (and all those wonderful colors) and thought immediately that The Division looked subpar. The game put a strain on my eyes, actually, esp when turning fast.

I would rather have 900p/60fps, like DICE did with BF4.
 
Things are getting way out of hand there buddy...
3rd party exclusivity should not exist unless co-financed as the title would not exist otherwise.



It is clearly not that simple, but with architectures being so close for both consoles (and PC like), expectations of direct scalability are higher than ever.
CPU: advantage XB1 by a mere 10% clock speed (available cores are now the same)
GPU: advantage PS4 by around 40% overall, but also on a much higher amount in other terms
RAM/ Architecture: Advantage PS4 in terms of simplicity and unified high speed GDDR5
SDK: Advantage PS4 (as reported by devs)

:)

Was this even verified? And do we know when games will begin to use it? I think stuff like Uncharted 4 are already past the point where they can recode parts of their game when they are so close to release.
 

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Was this even verified? And do we know when games will begin to use it? I think stuff like Uncharted 4 are already past the point where they can recode parts of their game when they are so close to release.

It was verified as happening several months ago and an ND dev on twitter confirmed they were using it.
 
I read at first that you said resolution was lower overall, but I checked once more, and it's definitely not. Then I relized you said DOF. I think you're right, the DOF resolution somewhat better on PS4, but it would be easier to see on a screen with more gradual DOF. Just top clarify, you mean the straight, silver part of the stethoscope, because on the round part the difference is practically invisible.

Basically, yes to everything you said. I can see differences elsewhere, but that is the main place where I see what looks like a lower resolution in the effect.
 
Why are people whinging about Ps4 owners wanting a better experience? Does the PC version have more graphical prowess than the Ps4? If so then it is not unexpected to want the devs to extend the courtesy towards Ps4 owners over the Xbone version.

I don't want my games being held back by as system I don't own or have any vested interest in. I didn't buy a more powerful console so I can get lesser versions of games.

Regardless I will be picking this up on launch day as this looks like the Freedom Fighters remake I have been waiting for so long.
 

leeh

Member
I don't get what all the fuss is about, they probably hit the target on the PS4 way before the Xbox, which also runs worse as-is.
 
As I said after, it has little to do with power and more to with resource management. XO and PS3 both require more time, money, and effort to use well.

Even after all the Dev-Kit updates and the updated Pix-Tool for the ESRAM optimization...is it really that much more difficult and costly to develop for the XB1 vs. PS4?

Layers of Fear dev announced they've got their game running at 1080p/30fps on the XB1 and they didn't use the 7th core.

Do we have any recent examples of devs complaining about developing for the XB1 & extra cost?

Yeah, as if using the 7th core is somehow going to allow them to hit 60fps. I highly doubt THAT is the bottleneck. It was foolish for them to even MENTION it.

The real issue with Layers of Fear is that it runs on Unity. Locking at 30fps is probably the better choice as every single OTHER Unity console title that runs with an unlocked frame-rate is so unstable that it nearly ruins the experience.

Just because both consoles can reach 30fps locked does NOT mean PS4 could hit 60fps - especially when using something like Unity.

My questions to you was, is there really a BIG difference in development time & cost for the XB1 compared to the PS4, and do you have any examples (Dev quotes) that you can reference to back up your claim?

I never said anything about Layers of Fear possibly reaching 60fps by utilizing the 7th core. I was simply using a statement (by a developer of an upcoming game) that IMO gave off an impression that the XB1 did not provide any additional challenge or cost to their development process.

I understand that the XB1 was difficult to program for in the first year, there were comments from developers to confirm that. However, since then, there have been 5 or 6 SDK updates for the XB1, and at the BUILD conference last year, MS announced that they had greatly improved their PIX tool, which would allow developers to simply load their game code into the tool and the tool would do all of the eSRAM optimization for them. There have also been multiple articles over the past year, quoting developers saying they had no problems developing for the XB1.

So again, who have you spoken to recently that said the XB1 is more difficult and expensive to code for? Specifically, what developer? Did someone from Massive tell you this, or are we just supposed to take your word for it because you work for DF?
 

e-gamer

Member
That's not even necessary, XB1 owners can have the games too, it's just that equal allocation of time and resources should be a priority. Some current development results even suggest that PS4 don't even get a valid fraction of development, much less than the XB1 in some instances, which is when we get something like RE-R2 (same resolution worse performance). So yes, something is awry here with some of the current development paradigms.

There are many factors to consider though, a valid solution would be to develop on the best hardware and have that running as best as you can, then scale down on lower end hardware within acceptable performance parameters, but clearly that's not happening in many scenarios. PS4 seems to be eeking out as the best platform just by bruteforce in many side by side cases, we hardly see a tangible difference in asset detail in many scenarios just the standard resolution and framerate advantages on PS4, with the occasional AO/AF/AA uptick every now and then.

Clearly there are always devs which do more than others and have a good development plan for all platforms which they engage, Rocksteady did an excellent job on each piece of hardware, AK looked great on both systems with highly detailed assets with performances and rez differences to highlight hardware differences, perhaps hindered by UE3 and it's high CPU utilization, but through that you could see a dev worth it's salt on the multiplat dev turf. 4A is another.......

I feel somehow that there are too many misc elements and deals which affect current multiplat results or even development; marketing deals are one, it's money on the table or money the dev or publisher won't have to spend directly, so they give a bit more love with the contracted party or make sure that nob gets due attention or is slobbered adequately. It's not as black and white as some people will have you believe, that's why when that Ubisoft guy said their policy "was to avoid debates and stuff", I'm glad that that came out the way it did, because too many are quick to call persons conspiracy theorists...lacing the dev world as all hardworking people, or "they did the best they could" as a response to mediocre or "not good enough results"....Well I'll tell you this, "everybody is hardworking and every development process was veritably fulfilled" is hardly the case in many many many projects across many industries, gaming development is certainly not the outlier.

In any case, there are too many reasons why we get the results we do with released games, especially when they're inconsistent and blatant as opposed to prevailing efforts, we should call for better relations between producer and devs. Quality assurance should also be inclusive of devs using the best of the hardware they have and meeting standards relative to each piece of hardware in development, yes PS4, XB1 Wii, no piece of hardware should be gimped with a generalized approach.

The way I see it, it seems only games developed separately or through good technical studios gets good results on all systems. I'm looking at ROTR and I wish it was Nixxes handling development of that over CD, they have always done better than CD at their own game (technically). So I have no doubt they would make a better port of ROTR on PS4. I also look at SF5 and Tekken 7 and ask if these games were on all platforms would they look as good, T7 especially, the answer may be no and that's a revelation since that fits well with your sentiment on the issue, but I still maintain that all persons can enjoy the games, don't give me a generalized console effort, give me a quality PS4 release, a quality XB1 release a quality Wii release commensurate with what their specs can achieve. Current development paradigms have to be changed and bolstered for the better.

Aren't there more middleware programs available now than anytime before, pre fab assets (art, gpu rendering tech) that makes the life of devs much easier than it's ever been. I keep hearing of how hard things are, mostly budgetary/financial, but there have been a lot of improvements to how quickly a game can me made in 2016 too. I'm talking both time-wise and finance-related.

I remember a time when devs had to spend eternal hours making sound assets, art development assumed a mortar and pestle type approach, coding was certainly more janky with crap compilers and syntax hell. With all of these high level OOL's of today, I think we've come a long way with how easier things are...... Imagine a current gen (new age) dev having to write an entire language (GOOL), or developing their own engine from scratch as well, yes, things are much easier now in many instances....

Talking about QA, with big budget games like Unity, Fallout4, is that the right approach? Lots of money, more bugs, worse performance, more useless jank. QA? What does that even mean in 2016......I've seen many lower budgeted games with much more polish and quality than many big budget AAA games.........I'm talking about visuals and performance. Too much money wasted on snoop dogg features, marketing gimmicks, QA that fail and fail. You have to admit a lot of AAA games budgets are wasted.

Well, to Be honest, Tekken 7 also will be launched on Xbox one. SFV won't for a matter of deal, not tech. And I can surely say that the game would run the same on Xbox one.
 

c0de

Member
Even after all the Dev-Kit updates and the updated Pix-Tool for the ESRAM optimization...is it really that much more difficult and costly to develop for the XB1 vs. PS4?

Layers of Fear dev announced they've got their game running at 1080p/30fps on the XB1 and they didn't use the 7th core.

Do we have any recent examples of devs complaining about developing for the XB1 & extra cost?

i think to just get a game up and running, no. The memory setup is unconventional but that is the only thing that makes it "hard". But optimizing will be quite hard because it is expected to take longer to reach a target that PS4 also has. Some devs decide to lower settings and/or resolution, others invest more time/resources/money. That doesn't mean that devs don't optimize for PS4, too, though. It could also mean that devs have to spend more time with PS4 if they are only used to DirectX programming. The truth only a dev can tell us, in the meantime everyone believes what fits his agenda.
 
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