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Why was there backlash for DmC Dante? He was just as good.

Old Dante was carefree and actually enjoyed what he did. He was also an iconic character with a ton of fans. Then you get new Dante and he's an obnoxious teenager spouting some of the worst written lines I have ever seen in a video game.

And you're seriously telling me the backlash confused you?
 

Tizoc

Member
Old Dante was carefree and actually enjoyed what he did. He was also an iconic character with a ton of fans. Then you get new Dante and he's an obnoxious teenager spouting some of the worst written lines I have ever seen in a video game.

And you're seriously telling me the backlash confused you?
DmC 2013 dante also underwent character development as the game progressed
 

bobbytkc

ADD New Gen Gamer
having played the game years back, I thought the game was good mechanically and combat was fun. The main problem is that the changes weren't better than what they had before, and the overall design of the world and enemies were not appealing to the greater audience.

It was caught between alienating fans of the original series, and not attracting new fans, which I guess was what Capcom wanted when they approached ninja theory.
 
5wFLqLM.gif


He was basically the 2000's version of 90's attitude.
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
My favorite part of this whole dramatic fiasco was that the Chief Designer at Ninja Theory had the same haircut as DmC Dante.

GFx6DXP.jpg
 

B-Genius

Unconfirmed Member
DmC 2013 dante also underwent character development as the game progressed

So? Just because he supposedly went from "I don't give a flying fuck" to "I kind of give a bit of a fuck" doesn't automatically make him a better character.

And even if it does somehow make him a "better character" on a technical well-rounded level, it doesn't negate the backlash (which has been clearly and rationally articulated in this thread).
 

Braag

Member
I liked the design of Dante in DmC more, as far as personality and attitude goes, both versions of Dante make me roll my eyes.

The world design was also more interesting in DmC, the upside down level being probably coolest.
 

Neff

Member
Dante is a charming, self-deprecating, one-liner-spouting, cunning demon hunter with a heart of gold.

Donte is an angry, rude, witless meathead who only cares about pussy, and even that takes encouragement.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
My favorite part of this whole dramatic fiasco was that the Chief Designer at Ninja Theory had the same haircut as DmC Dante.

GFx6DXP.jpg

I think that does explain so much.

Someone who wouldn't appreciate that DMC is a kind of comedic look at rock n roll tropes.. because maybe they're a little bit of a rock n roll trope themselves. Someone who thinks "oh this guy's trying to be a cool rocker, but it's outdated.... I'll show you really cool and edgy modern punk rock...."

It'd be like letting a This is Spinal Tap remake be made by the lead singer of Fall Out Boy, and he makes it unironically about seriously edgy 2000s punk rockers.

Hey, I'm sure he's an alright dude, and maybe he gets it. It's just that it's pretty funny to see this comedic image of rock moulded into an apparently self-styled image of someone who is all about that life.
 

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
It is definitely funny for people to shit on nuDante for being edgy
4446451-3959098548-vJ8pO.gif

cuz old Dante sure wasn't
I think that does explain so much.

Someone who wouldn't appreciate that DMC is a kind of comedic look at rock n roll tropes.. because maybe they're a little bit of a comedic rock n roll trope themselves. Someone who thinks "oh this guy's trying to be a cool rocker, but it's outdated.... I'll show you really cool and edgy modern punk rock...."

It'd be like letting a This is Spinal Tap remake be made by the lead singer of Fall Out Boy, and he makes it unironically about seriously edgy 2000s punk rockers.

Hey, I'm sure he's an alright dude, and maybe he gets it. It's just that it's pretty funny to see this comedic image of rock moulded into an apparently self-styled image of someone who is all about that life.

Did you have a problem with it in Deus Ex Human Revolution?

Feel like people are giving Kamiya way too much credit as some 'creative satirical rock and roll genius'
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Feel like people are giving Kamiya way too much credit as some 'creative satirical rock and roll genius'

All you need to do is look at the rest of his work.

Is Viewtiful Joe a serious take on sentai shows, and how unironically cool they are? No, it's a fun-filled romp celebrating the silliness of transformation sequences and wobbly sets.

Is Bayonetta about the desperate struggle of a witch who dispatches enemies in a deadly serious manner? No, it's a totally campy romp with a character who winks at the camera at every turn.

Is Wonderful 101 about how seriously cool American superheros are? It's an embrace of their campy powers, real world alter-egos, and saving-the-day in the city set pieces.

It's not even "satire". It's just a series of consistently light-hearted romps. Classic DMC doesn't need us to take Dante, rock or demons seriously. "It's just a wild ride, baby. *wink*" That's the tone. It's all in service of having fun.
 
It is definitely funny for people to shit on nuDante for being edgy
4446451-3959098548-vJ8pO.gif

cuz old Dante sure wasn't

I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. This isn't self inflicted or anything, it came after a grandiose fight in which the two characters shot at each other on top of a statue. I feel the term edgy has lost any and all meaning at this point.
 

Seyavesh

Member
I'm not sure what you're trying to prove. This isn't self inflicted or anything, it came after a grandiose fight in which the two characters shot at each other on top of a statue. I feel the term edgy has lost any and all meaning at this point.

nah, the definition is somewhat solid in terms of summarizing a certain tone but a lot of folks misinterpret it which leads to bizarre stuff like "dmc3's intro is so edgy" which might as well be interpreted as "bugs bunny is so edgy"

by the way, it's a new page so
Let's look at what changed and didn't change with DmC, shall we.

DmC failed to change so much that actually matters: Progression is still completely linear since the mission/chapter system still sticks to the series like gum in its hair, the enemies are still slow and unreactive punching bags with two moves max, bosses still lack anti-air attacks, instead of getting rid of the pointless platforming they doubled down on it, the weapon/style switching is still unnecessarily convoluted, they failed to shake up the level design, the art design doesn't amount to more than pretty scenery instead of actually interesting locations (look at Dark Souls and Bloodborne. That's what DMC should aspire to, instead of dull gray-ish cities and pretty skyboxes), they made the "area closes off" scripted events before battles even more fucking annoying, no Boss Rush Mode, no co-op, no NG-esque mission mode, it continued a proud series tradition of getting rid of a bunch of great features from previous games (this time no Royal Guard, no Air Trick, no Sword Pierce/Dance Macabre, no Twosome Time, no Gunstinger, no DT-exclusive moves, no Distortion, no Inertia or Guard Flying, no Nero or any of his mechanics; still no crazy combos, Free Ride, Pole Swing, elemental weapons, obtaining bosses as weapons, Quicksilver or unique firearms like Artemis or Spiral). I could go on and on and on.

As for what they actually changed: The story is a retread of DMC1 and DMC3, the concept of Limbo has little impact on gameplay, the urban environments meets demonic wonderland amount to pretty looking skyboxes instead of actually interesting level design, modern trends like cinematic set pieces and forced walking sections, boss fights are interrupted by cutscenes and scripted events, they got rid of the lock-on which fundamentally changes the combat system and breaks the combat on higher difficulties, the launcher is now has a dedicated button with only two possible functions, more gosh darn bush-snorting stick-licking platforming, zero gravity on aerial moves meaning air combat is dead simple, the Angel/Devil system restricts the freedom of the combat needlessly, the weapon switching is even more convoluted by combining a toggle based weapon switch with the weapon switching of DMC3 and the stupid weapon shuffling from DMC4, weapons are now light/medium/heavy which sucks the fun out of combat even further, the combat has less options because of a more limited move set even though there's two more weapons, Dante's Devil Trigger is the worst version yet as it offers nothing beyond an anti-grav feature and a generic power up, and again it got rid and ignored of a bunch of great features from previous games.

Gee, I wonder why DmC's changes were so negatively received. Thankfully the game actually did a lot of cool stuff, most of which gets ignored by most of its supposed fans and its detractors.

As for DmC Dante, no, people didn't hate him because they "hate change". They hated DmC Dante because the initial reveal was absolutely terrible, because instead of taking the criticism to heart Tameem and Capcom's Alex Jones dismissed fan concerns and insulted them instead. They hated DmC Dante because he's much less of the goofy cartoon character that people loved. They hate DmC Dante because he fucks strippers in the intro, and lives in a trailer. They hate DmC Dante because he dresses like a hobo. They hate DmC Dante because of the nature of the reboot his character represented a regression of all the development the original version of the character had undergone.
You can argue that some or none of those things matter. Personally, I don't really care about the changes that much because gameplay is no. 1 to me. But no one hates DmC Dante solely because they "hate change". It's a completely embarrassing notion and something that sounds like a commenter on a Daily Mail article would say than a NeoGAF poster.

I'm sick to death of every DmC related thread being the same garbage ad nauseum. Random DmC stans insulting fans over trivial bullshit while ignoring the actual interesting stuff the game did because their interest in DmC will never be anything but shallow gravy, while on the other hand a bunch of DMC weekend warriors shout about how DmC was the worst thing ever and worse than DMC2 and while also failing to acknowledge the before-mentioned great additions to the formula that DmC had.

We're so goddamn lucky that people like Rahni Tucker and NeoGAF's own TribladeX were involved in DmC because I shudder to think about what kind of shit fest DmC would have been otherwise.



The best things DmC gave us was a fully 360 degree rotatable camera system, full 360 degree maneuverability in mid-air instead of the forced jump arcs of previous games, Ricoshot, Reverse Rainstorm, Aquila's mechanics, the changes to Vergil's combat mechanics and move set, Dojo/Training Mode, extensive stat tracking found in the options, in-game speed increasing by 10% at S rank and above, the changes to the upgrade system, the ability to try out moves before buying them, generally more intuitive menu system/interface, being able to quit and continue from the last checkpoint, secret missions being available from the menu, features like Turbo and Super Mode being toggles in the main menu instead of hidden in the options, almost no forced backtracking or puzzle solving, bosses get their own separate missions, environmental hazards which are useful in combat, enemies that can parry attacks mid-air/mid-combo, charge moves charge faster and are therefore much more useful, pause combo-switching (i.e. continuing a pause combo with a different weapon) which is accompanied by a controller rumble and the flashing of the weapon, moves with just frame properties for all weapon types and not just gauntlets, improved style visual UI as Style rank up is indicated by the letter filling up, the style ranking system in DmC DE which is the best version of any game in the series, toggle-based lock-on, Bloody Palace timer option, Must Style Mode, Gods Must Die as an official feature.



You're ignoring context. Merely an hour before we have a scene where Kat explains in dead pan about how she was abused and raped by her step father who was a demon. The tone of DmC, like the originals, is all over the place.

If people misunderstood anything about the story, the game itself is to blame.

It's quite easy (and lazy) to dismiss an entire fanbase for being irrational and illogical. As time has passed since the announcement, release, and re-release of DmC, you'll find that DMC fan concerns were warranted and justified, whereas there is a contingent of people who will insist on vilifying the DMC fanbase simply for fighting for something they care about. "White hair lol" wasn't a point of discussion a year after the reveal.

The most reductive and ignorant people will attribute the distaste of DmC Dante to "DMC fans hate change." As with any fanbase, there will be a subset that will despise any change to their sacred formula, but the DMC series as a whole is no stranger to change. Ironically, the hardcore DMC fanbase might be one of the most tolerant of change from game to game. The character focus has always shifted gears significantly from title to title. Every sequel featured a dramatic change, usually in character and scope. What was not compromised, however, was the attempt to hone and deepen the gameplay with each iteration. DmC was never advertised as such. In fact, DmC was advertised as an attempt to reach a casual demographic with a gritty urban western aesthetic at the expense of certain areas of gameplay depth.

Most hardcore DMC fans played DmC. Played it to death. Played it more than most people defending it. It's why we know there were problems with the original release. It's why we had issues with 30fps, no lock on, color coded enemies, broken devil trigger, broken damage values, broken style meter, and all around poor boss design. It's also why DmCDE changed all of these things. Because Ninja Theory recognized that all those little whiny fanboys had a point, and understood how to patch some of the glaring holes in their game.

All DMC fans don't universally hate change. They hated the changes that they saw coming throughout the development process because they recognized them, and spoke out against them. And continued to attack the game after release while they experienced those issues first hand.


But let's take a step back and look strictly at the superficial character design of DmC Dante. To argue that he was just the same as DMC Dante is either disingenuous or blind. DMC Dante was a goofball. Yes, even in DMC1. He was silly, over-the-top, slapstick, and lackadaisical. DmC Dante tries to appeal to a different kind of cool. There's no question that DmC Dante is harsher, cruder, and an anti-establishment bad boy archetype. He's not DMC Dante. He may be something you prefer, but he's not the same character. You have to understand that what DmC was proposing was the complete abandonment of a character that fans had grown attached to... not the change of that character, the deletion and subsitution. And while I certainly wouldn't argue that these are objective reasons why DmC is worse than DMC, I would argue that it's a perfectly legitimate reason for someone to not spend their hard earned money on a product that doesn't appeal to them.

The fan reaction to DmC's Dante was one spawned out of fear. The classic series might not have things that you care about, OP, but there was an existing dedicated fanbase that was threatened with the dissolution of the gameplay/story/characters that they loved... all while the series was arguably at its peak gameplaywise (saleswise definitely). And all for the sake of westernization and chasing God of War money. This has been confirmed by Itsuno in postmortem interviews - if DmC sold incredibly well, it would have been the series going forward. It seems that Capcom actually created what is essentially an irreconcilable rift in the fanbase, as is evidenced by threads like these.

It doesn't help that Ninja Theory, Capcom, and games journalists had the audacity to demonize the fanbase as a whole for actually speaking their minds and voting with their wallets. The entire tortured development process wasn't easy for Ninja Theory, but Tameem did no one any favors in how he opted to speak about the fanbase and outright ignore feedback. Thank God not everyone on the development team wasn't as blind as Tameem and certain members of Capcom. Key members and combat designer Rahni Tucker took feedback from the DMC and DmC fanbase to make DmCDE, a vastly vastly improved game all around, because they saw the legitimate concerns and criticisms from fans.
 

hodgy100

Member
well dmc fans nw understand what its like to be ridiculed for being a sonic fan :p Not that its ok that your concerns and criticisms are being dismissed with "green eyes lol" or "white hair lol" :/
 
Are people ever going to learn that we are allowed to dislike things you like?

If you like new DMC Dante, game and all more, thats fine.

If I Like Old Dante, game and all more, thats fine too.

This entire thread is about subjective opinions of a games rendition of an established character and franchise. I've gone through all 6 pages so far and we've covered no new ground, except maybe finding a few more ways of writing off peoples opinions.
 

Ansatz

Member
I have seen some DmC cutscenes and the only way for me to describe the presentation is that it's too american/hollywood if that makes sense. It doesn't appeal to me at all. On the other hand I love pretty much all oldschool capcom, clover and platinum character action games. Bayonetta and TW101 in particular have godlike sense of style, it's something about the way characters move, talk and behave in cutscenes that is super appealing.
 
It is definitely funny for people to shit on nuDante for being edgy
4446451-3959098548-vJ8pO.gif

cuz old Dante sure wasn't
'

How is that edgy? Do you even know what edgy even means?

Both you and the other guy posted the same thing about him being stabbed and shrugging it off, but Being stabbed in a fight does not make you edgy- stabbing yourself to see if you're still human inside is edgy.
 
No one asked for new Dante. Capcom was high on that western remake wave and rebooted a series after its highest selling entry. Completely unnecessary. Nothing NT could have put out would have compared to what people imagined for DMC5
 
It's not even "satire". It's just a series of consistently light-hearted romps. Classic DMC doesn't need us to take Dante, rock or demons seriously. "It's just a wild ride, baby. *wink*" That's the tone. It's all in service of having fun.

That said I think there is a pretty large difference between the presentation of DMC1 and the presentation of DMC3 and 4. 3 and 4 are certainly heavy on the intentional camp (not that this makes them "satirical", like you say - you are clearly supposed to like Dante and think he is amusing and cool in those games), but I think DMC1 takes itself pretty seriously for the most part. That game is pretty grim all the way through, and Dante's occasional flamboyant posing or cocky lines of dialogue don't lighten the mood that much.
 

Zolo

Member
That said I think there is a pretty large difference between the presentation of DMC1 and the presentation of DMC3 and 4. 3 and 4 are certainly heavy on the intentional camp (not that this makes them "satirical", like you say - you are clearly supposed to like Dante and think he is amusing and cool in those games), but I think DMC1 takes itself pretty seriously for the most part. That game is pretty grim all the way through, and Dante's occasional flamboyant posing or cocky lines of dialogue don't lighten the mood that much.

Yeah. When people talk about tone, they generally refer to 3 and 4 even if they only specifically point out 2.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
That said I think there is a pretty large difference between the presentation of DMC1 and the presentation of DMC3 and 4. 3 and 4 are certainly heavy on the intentional camp (not that this makes them "satirical", like you say - you are clearly supposed to like Dante and think he is amusing and cool in those games), but I think DMC1 takes itself pretty seriously for the most part. That game is pretty grim all the way through, and Dante's occasional flamboyant posing or cocky lines of dialogue don't lighten the mood that much.

That's funny, because I actually presumed the opposite. It seemed to me that the DMC series was progressively more self-serious.

BUT I would need a replay of the series to really hash that out... It's been a long time, and you may have a point.
 

Keasar

Member
To me, the new Dante took shit way too seriously. The game tried to be way too serious with messages like "corporations and the media man!" and "I shot a baby!" when it all comes down to trying to fight things as cool as possible.

It was more fun when old Dante just enjoyed whatever situation he was in and had fun with it.
DMC4.gif

Dante, son of Sparda, forever cursed with being cool.

Basically this.
 
His writing was embarrassing, much like the whole game's. I could tell they were really trying to be clever and witty and edgy, vs. DMC4 which was just effortlessly cheesy anime nonsense. As someone who genuinely enjoyed Bayonetta's writing, I'd definitely take that over DmC.

Also, and this is important, I don't find DmC Dante particularly attractive. He may have a nice body, but that smug child face and that haircut with that outfit... absolutely not.
 
I am sure other peoples have say it but here it goes.

The first reveal of Donte on TGS 2010 was basically a crack head. That left a lot of people saying "What?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgfXeUldLt4

It didn't help that NT then completely shit the bed with their PR on the following years, and then Donte was just a token example of why people that loved DMC HATED with all their guts the new version, the "I hate Donte" became the "I hate Nickelback" or "I hate Phil Fish" equivalent to explain the reasons why DmC sucked ass (And believe me there was a lot to hate back in 2013).
 

RazMaTaz1

Banned
"....it waz cuz of deh white hairz, OMG fanboyz sewiouzly".

While i enjoyed the definative edition of DmC, Dante himself was a complete bore fest. He was dull, the swearing was pointless, NT attempted him to make him hard and brash, but came off as a dull chav like character that would better fit in with the EDL group. I actually preferred Vergils character to Dantes in DmC.
 

Arxisz

Member
His design is too generic and typical, Most fans were already used to old dante, there was no need to redesign him and alienate fans.I liked the reboot personally but hated the dante redesign with a passion.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I am sure other peoples have say it but here it goes.

The first reveal of Donte on TGS 2010 was basically a crack head. That left a lot of people saying "What?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgfXeUldLt4

It didn't help that NT then completely shit the bed with their PR on the following years, and then Donte was just a token example of why people that loved DMC HATED with all their guts the new version, the "I hate Donte" became the "I hate Nickelback" or "I hate Phil Fish" equivalent to explain the reasons why DmC sucked ass (And believe me there was a lot to hate back in 2013).
Rewatching this...

Goddamn, I hate the tone that it set. I hate this hero.
 
Old Dante was carefree and actually enjoyed what he did. He was also an iconic character with a ton of fans. Then you get new Dante and he's an obnoxious teenager spouting some of the worst written lines I have ever seen in a video game.

And you're seriously telling me the backlash confused you?

Sounds like DMC3.
 
The design they ended up with wasn't nearly as bad as the one they initially revealed. First impressions count for a lot, and Ninja Theory probably lost half their audience out of the gate with the early teasers for four-days strung out on coke Donte.

The final design gained about twenty kilos (of non-cocaine), a slightly better haircut and lost most of the gratuitous bruising. Nothing spectacular, but it walked it back into the "relatively inoffensive" territory. Most people weren't really willing to give it a second look after the atrocious first impression, though.
 

Tuffty

Member
When they first came out with the news about it I could put the cosmetic changes aside in it's own place and maybe still find something to like if the character was just as cavalier but that just didn't happen. DmC Dante is just unlikeable, crass and swears like a trooper. It tries so hard to be edgy with all his expletive filled one liners, even right down to being a smoker. I never felt that way about the original Dante, even in DMC3.

If you want to talk about real character assassination though, look at the shit they did with Vergil. Fucking hell, you take one of the best villains and turn him into a weak, pompous
pregnant woman shooting, 'I'm weaker than Dante and the self proclaimed brains of the operation for 95% of the game but AHA surprise I'm actually the most evil all along!' lazy sterotype.
 

Sesha

Member
We're still doing this? *sigh*

Fedora aside, Vergil had a pretty stylin' outfit. I actually retraced his coat pattern because I thought it looked cool.

Vergil's suit was dapper as fuck. It annoys me so much that we can only play as scruffy beat-up Vergil during Vergil's Downfall. I mean, look at this sexy bastard (fan art, but oh so good).

 
First post is correct. The reboot Dante was a massive improvement.
Is this bait or what? I mean it's ok to like DmC, but this is just really insulting to me, and I beat all of the games. Do you guys not know how to read? Some very well thought out posts have been presented about the backlash, the changes, the developers PR and dealings with fans, the story tones, the adjustments they made in the DE version. Like to say"people hate change" after all of this information has been posting? I'm inclined to believe people are just trolling now.
 

Calabi

Member
Because of this



Also, his character was bad.

That is them taking the piss out of the character and people who liked the character. I can see why people hate him with that. It's bemusing how the developers didn't see or care at what they'd done.
 
I thought DmC was great and the hate was unwarranted. Yeah they made Dante extremely punk rock and rebellious, but it worked fine. Had it been a character with a different name, no one would have complained. I hope we get a proper sequel sometime this generation.
 
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