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[AgentLampshade]

The thing about fans is they know a sequel or reboot will have changes. This is a personal problem I have. Fans are too damandi. NT probably felt victum to the fans outcry and gave in. Fans kill off way too many origional ideas it isn't funny. I want to see fans welcome change for once. They feel glad that they got tweaks, but it made a nightmare for Capcom. Possibly killing off a new DMC by NT.

If fans have valid critique of something (such as in the case here) why shouldn't they voice these problems? Just because they aren't a problem for you, doesn't mean they weren't a problem for a number of others. NT did really well actually listening and implementing these very welcome changes. And as Sesha pointed out in the post you never bothered reading, fans did accept some of the changes from DmC: 360° camera, better airborne manoeuvrability, training mode etc. etc. Good change is welcome.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

Sesha, GuardianE, and Dahbomb's posts pretty much give a great look at what happened with DmC. I definitely think they should be posted every page, simply for the people who come in with shit like "DMC fans hate change", "DMC fans have 12 year old taste", etc.

Their posts remind me of the fact that you can find diamonds if you dig through enough piles of shit.

They put no effort into formatting that wall of text for a proper discussion to made. Should I just write an equally non legible amount of stuff to have arguements with tons of things I disagree with?

I thought tldr posts was a bannable offense.

 

[L Thammy]

I hadn't played a Devil May Cry game or even seen any videos when I first saw DmC's Dante, but him and the game's attitude were still huge turn-offs to me. So I tend to think that the guys who whine about "people hate change" or "white hair" in this case are just struggling with the idea that the character might just be unappealing for a lot of people. I had no affection for the original Dante and yet I still thought he seemed much better than the new one.

 

[Monocle]

Please. The backlash was embedded with the first proposed design, and before any information on mechanics were even discussed. The only reality distortion going on is with fans of the original DMC and Dante trying to pass off the corniness of shit like "dark soul with LIIIIIGHT" as intentional tongue and cheek.

Obviously the backlash started with the hideous reveal trailer and snowballed from there once people saw how awful the mechanics looked and NT started antagonizing old fans.

 

[Spman2099]

Ha, this discussion went from being people rehashing the same arguments, many of which hold little weight, to being a complete garbage heap. That being said, it is a lot more fun now.

Gafneo is the hero DmC fans deserve. He brings that Trump factor to the discussion.

 

[Eidan]

Obviously the backlash started with the hideous reveal trailer and snowballed from there once people saw how awful the mechanics looked and NT started antagonizing old fans.

We'll have to agree to disagree. The poor PR from NT obviously did them no favors, but from where I was sitting, it was a bad response to pre-existing feverish fan contempt. The damage was done before NT said anything.

 

[Dahbomb]

In the first game play trailer they released for DmC they actually had QTE like executions on enemies. That was a big no no for DMC as well, glad that got scrapped early.

There's a big difference in combat flow between this trailer and the one closer to release date.

 

[Sephzilla]

The thing about fans is they know a sequel or reboot will have changes. This is a personal problem I have. Fans are too damandi. NT probably felt victum to the fans outcry and gave in. Fans kill off way too many origional ideas it isn't funny. I want to see fans welcome change for once. They feel glad that they got tweaks, but it made a nightmare for Capcom. Possibly killing off a new DMC by NT.

They "gave in" because they probably realized nobody is going to buy a video game they don't want, which is what DmC basically was.

 

[Stallion Dan]

Is this bait or what? I mean it's ok to like DmC, but this is just really insulting to me, and I beat all of the games. Do you guys not know how to read? Some very well thought out posts have been presented about the backlash, the changes, the developers PR and dealings with fans, the story tones, the adjustments they made in the DE version. Like to say"people hate change" after all of this information has been posting? I'm inclined to believe people are just trolling now.

I beat all the games too, so what?


1. It's all subjective

2. A huge deal of people spouting stuff like skill ceiling were never good enough to see it let alone get near it anyway, so it's a none issue for them and just something to parrot to sound more legit over far shallower reasons for really disliking the game.

Not everyone with point 2 of course, but DMC has a large fanbase of shitty casuals who never complete on hard let alone DMD or harder, which is why after the parroting of 30fps etc before release suddenly when that "Not in a million years" scene was discovered it was suddenly back to "Capcom and Ninja Theory are insulting there fanbase!!!" again from a huge amount of fans. Clearly not all criticism were pure.

Numbers out of my ass but for every fan with legit concerns on the gameplay there was many who just didn't like the fact old Dante was no more, some just smart enough to parrot more legit sounding complaints, but the "No white hair!" didn't come out of nowhere.


That initial reveal was awful though, thankfully the final game was nothing like that.

 

[Infinite Justice]

We'll have to agree to disagree. The poor PR from NT obviously did them no favors, but from where I was sitting, it was a bad response to pre-existing feverish fan contempt. The damage was done before NT said anything.

Nah.

it was initial shock damage that could have been easily averted but instead they continued onward like idiots and dug a deep hole.

When those fans rightly spoke with their wallets they finally listened.

 

[Moon_frogger]

oh god people still in here claiming DmC is SUPER SERIOUS??? hahahaha. some people just don't want to let it go. I really, really hope those people get their DMC 5 so we can pick apart the shitty humor and attempt at story.

 

[Sephzilla]

I beat all the games too, so what?


1. It's all subjective

2. A huge deal of people spouting stuff like skill ceiling were never good enough to see it let alone get near it anyway, so it's a none issue for them and just something to parrot to sound more legit over far shallower reasons for really disliking the game.

Not everyone with point 2 of course, but DMC has a large fanbase of shitty casuals who never complete on hard let alone DMD or harder, which is why after the parroting of 30fps etc before release suddenly when that "Not in a million years" scene was discovered it was suddenly back to "Capcom and Ninja Theory are insulting there fanbase!!!" again from a huge amount of fans. Clearly not all criticism were pure.

Numbers out of my ass but for every fan with legit concerns on the gameplay there was many who just didn't like the fact old Dante was no more, some just smart enough to parrot more legit sounding complaints, but the "No white hair!" didn't come out of nowhere.


That initial reveal was awful though, thankfully the final game was nothing like that.

I think this is a weak complaint to levy against people who didn't like the changes in DmC. That's like saying I can't complain about something like Street Fighter lowering its skill ceiling because I can't make Top 8 at EVO

oh god people still in here claiming DmC is SUPER SERIOUS??? hahahaha. some people just don't want to let it go. I really, really hope those people get their DMC 5 so we can pick apart the shitty humor and attempt at story.

Did you read/watch any of the behind the scenes dev stuff for DmC? They took their story shit unusually serious.

 

[Infinite Justice]

oh god people still in here claiming DmC is SUPER SERIOUS??? hahahaha. some people just don't want to let it go. I really, really hope those people get their DMC 5 so we can pick apart the shitty humor and attempt at story.

Nice edit

/sarcasm

couldn't resist could you

 

[Dahbomb]

oh god people still in here claiming DmC is SUPER SERIOUS??? hahahaha. some people just don't want to let it go. I really, really hope those people get their DMC 5 so we can pick apart the shitty humor and attempt at story.

I noticed how this post mentioned nothing about game play.

There are enough DMC games with bad story and humor for people to pick apart. Obviously it was never a series strong suit and not why many buy these games.


As for me, I will going ham on critical analysis of DMC5. There will be no holding back from me.

 

[slade]

Ninja Theory is a crappy developer of videogames and they fumbled the one thing they were hired to do, make the story and art direction palatable to westerners who get their panties in a twist over everything anime. They got some of you but not enough of you that there was a sequel.

 

[Stallion Dan]

I think this is a weak complaint to levy against people who didn't like the changes in DmC. That's like saying I can't complain about something like Street Fighter lowering its skill ceiling because I can't make Top 8 at EVO

If you're not good enough to notice any changes, why do those changes bother you?

 

[AgentLampshade]

oh god people still in here claiming DmC is SUPER SERIOUS??? hahahaha. some people just don't want to let it go. I really, really hope those people get their DMC 5 so we can pick apart the shitty humor and attempt at story.

My favourite scene in DmC is when Dantes memory comes back and he remembers his mothers heart being literally ripped out in front of him as his father desperately takes him away and erases his memory in order to protect him. That was a big ol barrel of laughs that scene.

 

[Dahbomb]

If you're not good enough to notice any changes, why do those changes bother you?

The changes I listed one can notice within playing an hour of the game. Has very little to do with skill cap. You don't need to be a pro to realize that having to hit enemies with the corresponding weapon color is lame.

 

[Sephzilla]

If you're not good enough to notice any changes, why do those changes bother you?

Just because I don't notice the change doesn't mean others will. Also, what if I like watching combo videos from DMC games? Said changes would surely affect that too.

Do you like watching professional sports? Have you ever complained about a rule change even though you aren't a professional athlete?

 

[GuardianE]

If you're not good enough to notice any changes, why do those changes bother you?

I think that something to consider is how a game feels, not just a skill ceiling. There are cited gameplay limitations, but that's not the only reason why people want 60fps. Call of Duty MP was lauded for having high frame rate gameplay. Was it because every person who played it was a pro? No. It's because the game felt different to these players, even if the majority couldn't articulate why or how.

Things like lock on, framerate, broken DT, float, etc... you don't need to be in the top 10% to feel the effects of these things.

 

[DeathoftheEndless]

I never played the reboot, but I have a hard time believing Dante can be more annoying than in DMC 3.

 

[Infinite Justice]

I noticed how this post mentioned nothing about game play.

There are enough DMC games with bad story and humor for people to pick apart. Obviously it was never a series strong suit and not why many buy these games.


As for me, I will going ham on critical analysis of DMC5. There will be no holding back from me.

Which is funny how that is missing from the post.

Some of those DMC fans will join in and laugh as well after analyzing whatever story this DMC5 will bring

 

[Sephzilla]

I'll just say that I thought DmC's story was bad even by Devil May Cry standards. DmC had a few moments that I thought hit "fill your dark soul with light" level cringe worthy. Not to mention DmC's story trips all over itself and just feels amateurish. The Arkham plot twist after the second Vergil fight in DMC3 is way better writing than anything DmC brought to the table.

 

[R_thanatos]

We'll have to agree to disagree. The poor PR from NT obviously did them no favors, but from where I was sitting, it was a bad response to pre-existing feverish fan contempt. The damage was done before NT said anything.

But NT could have healed those wounds easily with their actions.

Sure the first presentation was met with plenty of bad reactions and they did change things , the dante showed initially and the one we've got aren't the same. Heck some of the concepts in the reveal vids aren't even in the final game.

If Nt continuated in that direction and tried to calm the backlash , things would have been much better. Heck , DMC players did buy DmC , it's not like the damage wasn't mitigated on some aspects

 

[jmdajr]

Not Japanese enough!

Spoiler

great game

 

[MuddyDonut]

Too try hard and offputting at first reveal. Turns out fine in game, but forgettable on the Dante Spectrum ©.

 

[Raonak]

OG Dante was complete cheese anime trying way too hard to be badass, badass, in the best way possible. (epecially uncle dante)

It's impossible to exceed it, Dante is too iconic of a character, it's like if in MGS2, if raiden actually was the redesign of snake.

Why even try making a new dante? Because it was a reboot.
That's the whole problem with DmC. It wasn't a bad game. It was just unnecessary. No-one asked for it. It was mean to be the new direction of a successful series with a dedicated fanbase.

Why not make it a spin off? Nearly all the vitriol towards it would vanish.

I would actually quite enjoy a DMC x DmC crossover.

 

[Stallion Dan]

The changes I listed one can notice within playing an hour of the game. Has very little to do with skill cap. You don't need to be a pro to realize that having to hit enemies with the corresponding weapon color is lame.

But parts are subjective. I liked the fact the game made me mix up my combos more by limiting my weapons for specific enemies and making me get more creative with them, since I do tend to keep falling back on same few BnB combos.

I almost never had an issue with its soft-lock on either, and if 30fps really bothered me I would never have gamed on consoles last gen, or much of this gen. No that no lock is better, or that 30fps beats 60, but these are hardly gameplay breaking and the game clearly designed with what it had in mind. It's not like they were plucked out of an old DMC game.

 

[yurinka]

Why was there backlash for DmC Dante? He was just as good.

DmC was a great game gameplay wise, probably the best and most accessible in the series for most players. But some squareminded fans can't handle minor changes and decide to boycott the game and kill the series because a couple of stupid reasons like a character had a different hair color or because the dev team was only part of the same than the ones who did previouss games. Even before they saw gameplay footage.

 

[chemicals]

Most people were pissed it was a reboot and not DMC5

This. DMC 4 is a masterpiece and it sold tons of units, there was no need for a reboot.

 

[Dahbomb]

Being forced to use certain weapons is the opposite of promoting creativity.

I didn't say those things were objectives, just that they were game play changes that many people didn't like. To the point where NT had to go back and change them back.

 

[nded]

DmC was a great game gameplay wise, probably the best and most accessible in the series for most players. But some squareminded fans can't handle minor changes and decide to boycott the game and kill the series because a couple of stupid reasons like a character had a different hair color or because the dev team was only part of the same than the ones who did previouss games. Even before they saw gameplay footage.

If some internet nerds not buying your game is enough to kill it, then your business model is questionable at best. There's also the question of why you think this game was entitled to money from people who apparently didn't want to buy it and who Capcom/NT seemingly went out of their way to not cater to.

By the way, I've bought this game twice so far and am seriously considering buying the DE. You're welcome.

 

[Sesha]

Playing on Must Die is a nightmare without manual lock-on. Long enemy waves, colored Rages, and those flying fuckers. *shudder*

DmC was a great game gameplay wise, probably the best and most accessible in the series for most players. But some squareminded fans can't handle minor changes and decide to boycott the game and kill the series because a couple of stupid reasons like a character had a different hair color or because the dev team was only part of the same than the ones who did previouss games. Even before they saw gameplay footage.

Oh look, it's you again, in another thread spouting the same bullshit. Please find one of these illusory DMC fans that boycotted DmC because of Dante's hair.

Considering the entire point of DmC was to broaden the appeal of the franchise, if the lower sales killed the franchise it's because DmC failed to appeal to said wider audience.

 

[gafneo]

If fans have valid critique of something (such as in the case here) why shouldn't they voice these problems? Just because they aren't a problem for you, doesn't mean they weren't a problem for a number of others. NT did really well actually listening and implementing these very welcome changes. And as Sesha pointed out in the post you never bothered reading, fans did accept some of the changes from DmC: 360° camera, better airborne manoeuvrability, training mode etc. etc. Good change is welcome.

The nature of fan reactions consist of boycotting, death threats, online vandelism. I'd rather not critique personally because I'd fear of influencing a creative mind to change something I could have adapted to. There is nothing wrong with suggestions every now and then, but to tell someone how to do their jobs is a bit radical. The best way to respond to a thing you are either for or against is to vote with the wallet. Companies do enough surveys, game time monitoring to know what works and what doesn't.

 

[Weiss]

The nature of fan reactions consist of boycotting, death threats, online vandelism. I'd rather not critique personally because I'd fear of influencing a creative mind to change something I could have adapted to. There is nothing wrong with suggestions every now and then, but to tell someone how to do their jobs is a bit radical. The best way to respond to a thing you are either for or against is to vote with the wallet. Companies do enough surveys, game time monitoring to know what works and what doesn't.

They did vote with their wallets. DmC's the worst selling game in the entire franchise, because nobody wanted it.

Then fanboys bitched that we weren't giving it a chance, as if we're under obligation to spend money on a thing we don't want.

 

[nded]

The nature of fan reactions consist of boycotting, death threats, online vandelism. I'd rather not critique personally because I'd fear of influencing a creative mind to change something I could have adapted to. There is nothing wrong with suggestions every now and then, but to tell someone how to do their jobs is a bit radical. The best way to respond to a thing you are either for or against is to vote with the wallet. Companies do enough surveys, game time monitoring to know what works and what doesn't.

I'm not sure what you think boycotting is if not a way to vote with one's wallet. Do you also think NT responding to criticism with the DE changes made the game worse for being muddled with the input of consumers?

 

[gafneo]

They did vote with their wallets. DmC's the worst selling game in the entire franchise, because nobody wanted it.

Then fanboys bitched that we weren't giving it a chance, as if we're under obligation to spend money on a thing we don't want.

2 million copies is not really a bad sell.

 

[Dahbomb]

They did vote with their wallets. DmC's the worst selling game in the entire franchise, because nobody wanted it.

Then fanboys bitched that we weren't giving it a chance, as if we're under obligation to spend money on a thing we don't want.

Well DmC sold more than DMC2 and rightfully so. DMC2 is a steaming pile of garbage.

 

[gafneo]

I'm not sure what you think boycotting is if not a way to vote with one's wallet. Do you also think NT responding to criticism with the DE changes made the game worse for being muddled with the input of consumers?

The changes to the actual game where not negative. The message of giving in to harrassment is. Now fans will think its ethical to treat people disrespectfully to get what they want.

 

[Mman235]

But some squareminded fans can't handle minor changes and decide to boycott the game and kill the series

Lol are you seriously implying that fans disliking it was enough to kill the series? If so it was doomed from the start and there was no point rebooting in the first place (since the whole point was to bring in a new audience). Given the detailed critiques of it hardcore fans who buy anything to do with DMC are probably half the reason DmC got what sales it did.

 

[Weiss]

Well DmC sold more than DMC2 and rightfully so. DMC2 is a steaming pile of garbage.

I thought we all agreed that DMC2 never happened.

2 million copies is not really a bad sell.

1.7, when Capcom wanted it to reach 2mil by the end of the fiscal year, and if I recall correctly their initial expectation was like 4 or 5mil. The point of the reboot was that westernizing DMC would obviously turn it into a COD scale cash cow for Capcom.

 

[nded]

The changes to the actual game where not negative. The message of giving in to harrassment is. Now fans will think its ethical to treat people disrespectfully to get what they want.

Do you seriously think Capcom and NT released the Definitive Edition years after the original because they feared for their lives? Or do you just think expressing any opinion contrary to what a "creative mind" believes is disrespectful?

 

[GuardianE]

Well DmC sold more than DMC2 and rightfully so. DMC2 is a steaming pile of garbage.

If we include DMC HD (which I think is valid), all versions of DMC2 have sold more than DmC + DmCDE. Not suggesting saying it should be that way, but you can make that argument.

Numbers as of December 31, 2015:
DMC4 = 3,000,000 (not including SE)
DMC3 + DMC3SE + DMCHD = 3,300,000
DMC2 + DMCHD = 2,700,000
DMC + DMCHD = 3,160,000
DmC = 1,700,000 (not including DE)

Neither DmCDE nor DMC4SE are "Platinum Titles" at this point, so we can only extrapolate that their additions are less than 1 million.

 

[Melter]

I mean the games were always over the top and Dante was always ridiculous. His redesign in the reboot was different but it's not like the OG Dante design was something understated.

I would totally be down for DmC 2,or a new Devil May Cry with a total, new redesign again.

because the original Dante is a very iconic character to the series. This new one is so different (not to say he is better or worse), it may as well have been a new IP.

 

[Sesha]

If we include DMC HD (which I think is valid), all versions of DMC2 have sold more than DmC + DmCDE. Not suggesting saying it should be that way, but you can make that argument.

Numbers as of December 31, 2015:
DMC4 = 3,000,000 (not including SE)
DMC3 + DMC3SE + DMCHD = 3,300,000
DMC2 + DMCHD = 2,700,000
DMC + DMCHD = 3,160,000
DmC = 1,700,000 (not including DE)

Neither DmCDE nor DMC4SE are "Platinum Titles" at this point, so we can only extrapolate that their additions are less than 1 million.

No one would have bought DMC2 HD on its own, though. We can say that pretty firmly.

 

[GuardianE]

No one would have bought DMC2 HD on its own, though. We can say that pretty firmly.

No arguments there.

 

[Zomba13]

The changes to the actual game where not negative. The message of giving in to harrassment is. Now fans will think its ethical to treat people disrespectfully to get what they want.

At least two of the changes were 100% negative, 30fps and no lock on. By that I mean that 60fps and lock on are objectively better because more frames means smoother gameplay and lock on was optional to begin with and you can still have better soft locking even with a hard lock on.

Anyway, that doesn't even matter. You are actually saying that no one should ever listen to feedback. Yeah, there are always horrible little shits who will go on twitter or facebook or whatever and spout vile bullshit actually threatening and attack people but that doesn't mean we should never voice our opinions about something we think would make the game (or whatever) better. It's up to the creators to listen but we're allowed to say what we want as long as it isn't hurting anyone.

"The game is 30fps and that makes me worry it won't be as smooth as previous games and the quality will suffer because of it" - Good.

"The devs should kill themselves because it's not 30fps" - Bad.

I don't know how you can think the first one is the same as the second one.

 

[AgentLampshade]

The nature of fan reactions consist of boycotting, death threats, online vandelism. I'd rather not critique personally because I'd fear of influencing a creative mind to change something I could have adapted to. There is nothing wrong with suggestions every now and then, but to tell someone how to do their jobs is a bit radical. The best way to respond to a thing you are either for or against is to vote with the wallet. Companies do enough surveys, game time monitoring to know what works and what doesn't.

I don't agree. First I'd like to point out that the morons who sent death threats aren't the majority of the fanbase, they're an extremely small vocal minority and I don't think there's a person on this site who condones those actions. If anything, the DMC community here are trying really hard to be reasonable just so we can stop the mindless hate (and I love you guys for it). Don't tar all of us with the same brush please.

Second; a silent vote with the wallet tells the people in charge NOTHING. It can easily be mistaken as a message to the publishers that there is no longer interest in the franchise, when in fact the opposite is true. The only thing we could do was complain about it in whatever form we could to let the developer know we're not okay with what they're doing, and in the case of DmC, it worked. We got the very much improved DmCDE.

Third; while I'm all in favour of not messing up an artistic vision, I do have to remind you that it's also a business they run, and providing a product to a consumer. If the consumer isn't happy with the product offered, they won't and shouldn't care about upsetting someones feelings. Harsh critique is still good critique and I like to think Ninja Theory learned from the initial experience of working on the game, the subsequent fan outcry and working on the Definitive Edition.

Spoiler

I also hope Tameem took screenwriting classes.

 

[BumblebeeCody]

because the original Dante is a very iconic character to the series. This new one is so different (not to say he is better or worse), it may as well have been a new IP.

I actually remember discussing this with people on another forum about "what if DmC was it's own game" rather than a DMC game. I ended up coming to the conclusion that the outcome would be the same. I mean if you think about it.
Say DmC came out under a different name such as "Demon Slayer", It would've been called a rip-off of DMC. When I see games often being compared to other games and then called a rip-off/poor mans version of (See Castlevania-Ripping off-God of War and many many other games) then the similarities between DmC and DMC are actually pretty close.

To go back to the comparison of Demon Slayer and DMC4,
"Oh well look at this rip-off DMC game. A cocky protagonist spouting one liners. He has a sword, gun, shotgun and can switch weapons on the fly. The protagonist even has a brother and has to take out the big main villain. Their parents are dead and now the protagonists are some weird hybrid thing. The game even ripped-off DMC with it's combo ranking system and Horde Mode/Bloody Palace system whee you take on waves of enemies"

Obviously that's a hypothetical argument so you can never know if that would ever happen. But the amount of times I see games being referred to as: it's [insert game as a base foundation] with elements of [insert mechanics from other game/Earthbound], or just flat out calling it a rip-off from another game wouldn't surprise me if DmC under a different name would've really made much of a difference. There isn't really much winning.

 

[Squishy3]

The backlash was embedded with the first proposed design, and before any information on mechanics were even discussed.

And people weren't excited at the prospect of Ninja Theory making it when it was just a rumor. Because they'd played Enslaved and Heavenly Sword, and those aren't exactly examples of the kind of combat people had come to expect from the Devil May Cry franchise.