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[Me_Marcadet]

If I look back at those 2,5 years, there simply haven't been enough games that justify early adoption. Launch line-up was meh, 2014 was shit. None of you is going to change this subjective view and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. This gen hasn't really started yet, especially exclusives-wise.

This is what I would have done:
I would have gotten earlier into PC gaming (early 2015) to play must-haves like Witcher 3 ,MGSV and Fallout 4 .... Bloodborne is the only game I would have missed in that case. But on the other hand paying 400$ for one exclusive game is beyond insanity.

So, I'm really trying to figure out right now what games Sony will release in the next 2 years that could possibly make me want a PS4K. They better be gud. Really, really gud. Otherwise, bye bye consoles. Or hello used PS4K in 2018 + all the exclusives at sale.
I'm a gamer, but I'm also a very consumption aware person. I don't see lots of anti-upgrade Gaffers here saying "those who support this are mindless consumption sheep" either.

You have made a poor choice when buying a console with no games. That has nothing to do with the release of the ps4k. When buying a console, you do it for the games that are announced, if not, you just dumb and you will feel cheated because you are basically gambling with the notion you should always win no matter what.

You are not interested in the ps4k, just like you weren't interested in the ps4, it's fine to make mistake. That doesn't mean Sony is responsible for your money or that ps4 is now shit because of the ps4k.

I bought a ps4 at launch because I was very interested in the line up with amazing games I would love to play. I got exactly what I was promised and even more.

I was soured too when the 3DSXL got announced because the first year of the 3ds was very bad. I didn't blame Nintendo, I blamed my poor choice and was glad Nintendo launched a better hardware.

It seems you chose to use this topic to vent about your experience with the Ps4 but have no interest in genuinely discussing the value and purpose of the PS4k.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Look... I know I am pissed that a possible-not-yet-confirmed system could be improving my experience on a lot of fronts. It is also double-edged sword situation for Sony or even MS if they don't have the proper message/wording. They need to find a way to say that their current system are the equivalent of ''Kaioken Goku x2'' and that the next iteration is equivalent to ''Kaikoken X4 Goku'' (played too much of Budokai 2+3).

Hmmmmmm indeed.

Spoiler

the budokai reference is very apt

 

[EGOMON]

I don't like this because if i buy a game then that game runs very poorly on PS4 I will automatically think it was because devs were focused on developing it for PS4k then port to base PS4 cause am not paying another $400 for a console within 3 years. If this thing happen then fuck u Sony.

 

[EloKa]

Just look at the difference between a PS4 and a PC game running on high and put the PS4K in between.

That´s all there is to it.

It´s all about "graphics", framerates and resolution.

Ah okay, so PS4K will be a open platform, with mods, you can OC your own SKU, chose your own hardware components by any manufacturer, get low digital prices and free multiplayer? Sweet. /s

All these comparisons between PS4K and PC are as good as the smartphone comparisons.

In the end you will most likely play exclusive games on the PS4 that were designed for a specific better performing console and therefore you will notice the downsides.


You could have said "It´s all about "graphics", framerates and resolution." for the PS3 -> PS4 jump as well. And as it turned out it was not the case.

 

[clintar]

Wonder what the possibility of adding PS3 backwards compatibility would be with PS4K...

 

[F4r0_Atak]

Or:
Case #1: PS4K doesn't exist, games are made with that specific hardware in mind, game runs at a stable frame rate and the same image quality I saw at their gameplay trailers. I'm happy to have bought what I expected it to be.

Case #2: PS4K exist. All the gameplay trailers are now based on the PS4K version. OG PS4 is no longer the focused hardware during the development, it now runs exclusives with frame rate issues all over the place, just as many multiplatform games. I no longer know what I'm buying until read other consumers impressions.

I prefer Case#1.

The same can't be said for 3rd Party publisher who decided to create brand new engines to be auto-sufficient and feel ahead of the curve. Just for example, FFXV looks rough as f***. If the engine they created was badly optimized for consoles, they can't just port/re-code the game to UE4 for the sake to match that original trailer.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Wonder what the possibility of adding PS3 backwards compatibility would be with PS4K...

Cell - Ps3

X86 - Ps4

a steep hill to climb for BC.... especially when they have PS Now.

I would say the possibility is very low

 

[Dahaka]

You have made a poor choice when buying a console with no games. That has nothing to do with the release of the ps4k. When buying a console, you do it for the games that are announced, if not, you just dumb and you will feel cheated because you are basically gambling with the notion you should always win no matter what.

You are not interested in the ps4k, just like you weren't interested in the ps4, it's fine to make mistake. That doesn't mean Sony is responsible for your money or that ps4 is now shit because of the ps4k.

I bought a ps4 at launch because I was very interested in the line up with amazing games I would love to play. I got exactly what I was promised and even more.

I was soured too when the 3DSXL got announced because the first year of the 3ds was very bad. I didn't blame Nintendo, I blamed my poor choice and was glad Nintendo launched a better hardware.

It seems you chose to use this topic to vent about your experience with the Ps4 but have no interest in genuinely discussing the value and purpose of the PS4k.

good post

 

[Cereal Enthusiast]

Why are people so quick to justify developer lack of optimization to console shortcomings?

May I remind you that Witcher 3 upon release had a ton of performance issues on PS4 and yet, after proper optimization, it now runs at an almost rock solid 30 fps?

And that is just one example, Borderlands is another as well.

You think all devs handle game development with the same attention and care?

You honestly would believe that Ubisoft maxed out PS4 and XB1 with Unity and that no other dev could do better?

I beg to differ...
.

I completely agree with you. But:
#1: You think it's normal to have to wait 6 months for TW3 to get 30 fps ?
#2: I'm sure Naughty Dog would have handled Unity better. But not everyone is ND, not everyone have the same ressources, and not everyone put so much emphasize on optimization and player experience.

 

[sono]

Making a PS4 for 10 years, and keeping servers active etc doesn't mean they can't release a PS4K, or a PS5, 6 or 7.

I mean they only stopped PS2 production at the end of 2013, for example.

But they didnt launch the PS3 3 or 4 years after the launch of the ps2 either.

You appear to be ignoring that significant difference.

 

[outunderthestars]

Finally, wccftech:





http://wccftech.com/ps4-5-ps4k-gpu-...iscussed-god-of-war-4-deep-down-launch-games/

Isn't that just a rewording of the original post?

 

[Crimson_Gold]

Wonder what the possibility of adding PS3 backwards compatibility would be with PS4K...

They aren't putting a cell in the thing. That dream is dead

 

[Tratorn]

Because in the vast majority of the cases games on console have a 30 fps lock. It's a value in the code that says "if the game go beyond 30 fps, well don't go there".

If the framerate cap isn't removed, it will stay at 30 fps no matter what (but for games running under 30 fps, sure the extra power should help them reached 30).

Yes I know, that's why I said it should be more stable than the 20-25 FPS on PS4, not that it would exceed the 30 FPS.
I was just wondering, because the OP sounds like there wouldn't be any improvements for older titles on PS4. But Witcher 3 or FO4 for example, which both don't hold 30FPS on many situations, should automatically see a better framerate imo. Probably his comment was just for graphically improvements.

 

[F4r0_Atak]

Maybe you are right, but still. Sega pulled the plug too soon for my liking. And I don't want to be in the same situation again, albeit for different reasons.

SCE ain't pulling the plug on 40 millions now... That would be insane.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Well, as a day one PS4 owner I can say that this option did not exist 2,5 years ago.
Me and many others may have acted differently in fall 2013 if we knew that a stronger PS4K will eventually come out in early 2017. Yes, it is an issue.

And please, for the love of god, don't bring up the iphone comparisson to counter my argument. My iphone 4 still does the job, there are no sacrifizes in comparisson to iphone 6 when it comes to the main purpose of this item. A new console running games better with better graphics is a totally different story.

I had a 4s and the jump in the performance of some of my games when going to a 5s was VERY noticeable. Not to mention the snappiness of accessing/using apps.

If you can accept your phone being inferior to what's out, then it should be no different with your console.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

So Sony wants to keep prices high with this move through the entire gen.

Greedy Sony.

What's the purpose of keeping prices high if margins are low?
Sony gains very little from keeping prices high for the sake of keeping prices high. It only drives away potential new customers.

You're conflating technological relevance with greed.

 

[PuppetMaster]

So what I don't understand is, why old games shouldn't see any improvements with the PS4K even without a patch. If it's just the same architecture and code base, it should automatically improve framerate, shouldn't it?

So f.e. if a 30FPS game runs at 20-25fps in heavy situations on PS4, it should be more stable on PS4K without any extra work for developers and so shouldn't need a patch for games that were released before.

Really depends on the implementation but the reason this will likely not happen because they don't want to introduce unexpected bugs to games written for the PS4.0 spec.

It is much simpler to handle the older code in a restricted mode that cannot access the full functionally of the hardware. Limiting access to X number of cores etc. Specific clk timings etc.

 

[DavidDesu]

It's a shame they used the word "sacrifices"... in reality any of these games that were going to come to PS4 would look the way they were always going to look, and the PS4K version will have improvements over and above that. Now everyone thinks that hypothetical future PS4 games will somehow be gimped because of PS4K when they will look exactly how they would have looked on PS4 should PS4K never have existed.

 

[wapplew]

For games that already running 1080p 60fps on PS4 like sport games, dev might have to make 2 variation for PS4K, 4K 60fps and 1080p 60fps with more bell and whistle for people who don't have 4K tv.

 

[Me_Marcadet]

Why are people so quick to justify developer lack of optimization to console shortcomings?

May I remind you that Witcher 3 upon release had a ton of performance issues on PS4 and yet, after proper optimization, it now runs at an almost rock solid 30 fps?

And that is just one example, Borderlands is another as well.

You think all devs handle game development with the same attention and care?

You honestly would believe that Ubisoft maxed out PS4 and XB1 with Unity and that no other dev could do better?

I beg to differ...

Also, your case#2 isnt real. In that case PS4 version would run at 20 fps or at 25 fps with even bigger sacrfices. No dev is going to spend the same amount of time optimizing when he has 2 versions to make. Both versions will suffer, both machines will not exploit their true potential. PC gaming is here decades now to prove that this is how its going to go down.

The lack of optimization have nothing to do with the target hardware but with increasing dev costs and meeting dead lines.
Some of you are putting all the issues of developing game onto the ps4k... Like if the ps4k wouldn't exist, everything will be solved ?
On the contrary, the ps4k is one solution to all your issues. It is a tool to make developing games even more cost effective and increase revenue without much effort. And the good part is that if you're poor and can't afford a ps4k you will reap the benefits, because the one who are paying for those improvements are enthusiasts who don't mind paying extra dollars.

The evolutionary consoles are good news for the industry and we should hope they will be selling because otherwise, our hobby is in trouble.

 

[outunderthestars]

Well, if I want to play the optimal version. It's the same as with a PC.

I would counter that the PS4 already isn't the optimal version of most games as they look and perform much better on PC.

Personally I am happy that we aren't going to spend the next 3 years bottlenecked by dated hardware.

 

[F4r0_Atak]

Hmmmmmm indeed.

Spoiler

the budokai reference is very apt

Thanks. I wanted to illustrate the fact things could just get better. Also, technology is always growing/advancing very fast. It is part of its nature...

 

[ghst]

So how is it that MS and Sony come to the same conclusion at roughly the same time, that an evolution of their console is needed. Do they actually work together in some respects, or does one find out the other is heading that direction and immediately get the ball rolling on their own project?

It's just weird that they both are heading this way and are so in sync.

AMD probably just went to them both with their newest chip and made a pitch along the lines of "well, the other fella is doing it. you wouldn't want to be left behind would you?"

wouldn't be surprised if both the platforms are nigh identical, albeit in different boxes with different walled gardens, at which point you're already halfway to making your order for a new PC because you're not an idiot.

 

[TheCanisDirus]

It's a shame they used the word "sacrifices"... in reality any of these games that were going to come to PS4 would look the way they were always going to look, and the PS4K version will have improvements over and above that. Now everyone thinks that hypothetical future PS4 games will somehow be gimped because of PS4K when they will look exactly how they would have looked on PS4 should PS4K never have existed.

Bingo. Would someone else please tell everyone this?

 

[AmyS]

Isn't that just a rewording of the original post?

Yes, it's just that wccf took nearly a day to relay this, usually they have an article up within a few hours.

 

[Gumbie]

AMD probably just went to them both with their newest chip and made a pitch along the lines of "well, the other fella is doing it. you wouldn't want to be left behind would you?"

wouldn't be surprised if both the platforms are nigh identical, albeit in different boxes with different walled gardens, at which point you're already halfway to making your order for a new PC because you're not an idiot.

So you're saying everyone who buys the new ps4 or x1 is an idiot? Just want to be clear on this.

 

[MidgarBlowedUp]

OK, so how does Microsoft capitalize on this? Would the have the resources to make an Xbox2.5 right after Sony announces and shows of the PS4K? Then does Sony counterattack with the PS4K.5+VR2?

 

[z1ggy]

What's the purpose of keeping prices high if margins are low?
Sony gains very little from keeping prices high for the sake of keeping prices high. It only drives away potential new customers.

You're conflating technological relevance with greed.

Yeah Sony is doing it for the sake of going forward with tech.

 

[Yurikerr]

It's a shame they used the word "sacrifices"... in reality any of these games that were going to come to PS4 would look the way they were always going to look, and the PS4K version will have improvements over and above that. Now everyone thinks that hypothetical future PS4 games will somehow be gimped because of PS4K when they will look exactly how they would have looked on PS4 should PS4K never have existed.

Not doubting the O.P, but we don't know how (or if) the word "sacrifices" was used.

Not that i have a problem with it, but if the OP had traded "considerable sacrifices" for "considerable improvements" i think this thread would like at least half the number of posts, and the tone wouldn't be as alarmist.

 

[Markoman]

You have made a poor choice when buying a console with no games. That has nothing to do with the release of the ps4k. When buying a console, you do it for the games that are announced, if not, you just dumb and you will feel cheated because you are basically gambling with the notion you should always win no matter what.

You are not interested in the ps4k, just like you weren't interested in the ps4, it's fine to make mistake. That doesn't mean Sony is responsible for your money or that ps4 is now shit because of the ps4k.

I bought a ps4 at launch because I was very interested in the line up with amazing games I would love to play. I got exactly what I was promised and even more.

I was soured too when the 3DSXL got announced because the first year of the 3ds was very bad. I didn't blame Nintendo, I blamed my poor choice and was glad Nintendo launched a better hardware.

It seems you chose to use this topic to vent about your experience with the Ps4 but have no interest in genuinely discussing the value and purpose of the PS4k.

Yes, you are right to some degree, but you don't see me moaning and complaning over Sony ITT, don't you? I'm mad at myself, true, and I came here to express that I will learn my lesson but I also brought up some arguments early on until we hit the "iphone", "but PS4 will still play the games", "git gud aka find another job" loop.

I'm the one to blame, 100% correct. I came to the conclusion that consoles are no longer my ideal gaming plattform. Plain as that. The PS4K's existence will just seal the deal for me.

Now watch some fellow Gaffers jump on me "so you're into PC gaming because you like upgrading hardware every year". yadda, yadda, yadda

 

[FireCloud]

I'm so conflicted!

On one hand I'm anxious because I've pre-ordered the PSVR for this Fall. I don't want to hear that to experience everything my just purchased VR headset has to offer, I need to spend another $400 (guessing here) on a console upgrade.

On the other hand, .....I'd probably do it.

 

[valkyre]

I completely agree with you. But:
#1: You think it's normal to have to wait 6 months for TW3 to get 30 fps ?
#2: I'm sure Naughty Dog would have handled Unity better. But not everyone is ND, not everyone have the same ressources, and not everyone put so much emphasize on optimization and player experience.

For #1 i sure as hell think that it is not normal to release a game and then make it work properly after 6 months. But that is the developer's issue, not the console's hardware. It was apparent not just by the performance issues but the general issues that W3 had that the game was not ready for release when it did.

A lot of bugs (some game breaking) , glitches etc etc. Couple that with the rumors that were going that CDPR was in a development nightmare, and it looks like they rushed to meet the deadline (even through the delays) and the game was simply not ready.

This doesnt have anything to do with console's inability to run W3 with a stable framerate as a lot of people were claiming back then and telling console users : "you should be glad this game runs in your weak hardware at all!".

No, I am not glad. This is bad optimization, and it was proven that the console not only could run the game, it could run it rock solid as well.

Similarly I dont consider Squarenix cant do better than that hideous FFXV demo performance. Not even the graphics look that impressive or demanding to me based on all the games I have played so far.

Its purely proper optimization. People should stop believing that hardware and numbers is the shit.

As for #2 you have a point, Ubisoft cant be ND, but for fuck sake they could do better than that mess that was called Unity.

 

[Straight Edge]

OK, so how does Microsoft capitalize on this? Would the have the resources to make an Xbox2.5 right after Sony announces and shows of the PS4K? Then does Sony counterattack with the PS4K.5+VR2?

Rumor is that MS is already working on an incremental xbox.

 

[Spaceking]

You are not force to. They will make most likely go with something in the likes of '' For a low priced systems, get a 1080p/60fps experience''. Especially if they aim for that 399$ price tag (maybe 499$ max), trust me that the noticeable differences won't be as major as we might think.

Yeah you are probably right, and I prefer the term "PS4 Lite".

But I don't want to have the lite version. I want to have "the ultimate console version".

That makes me want to have a new gaming rig.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

If there are enough benefits to games without the use of a 4K TV then I'm in. Especially if the benefits to VR are considerable.

 

[ArtHands]

Case #3: PS4K exists, FFXV runs great on it. FFXVI runs at 25fps, game doesn't exist on PS4 or runs extremely poorly.

It doesn't matter how powerful you get, the same problems will exist.

Your case 3 is basically case 1 when XVI comes out.

 

[mckmas8808]

So are consoles going to go the way of smartphones and tablets? An upgraded device every few years, but still the same core system?

For example, as long as the developer has properly updated the app, I could play the same game on my iPhone 6 that was originally targeted for something much older like the iPhone 3G. I wouldn't mind this happening to consoles, it would definitely end the entire guessing game to backwards compatibility.

Yes this is the direction that Sony wants to go in. It just feels so different.

 

[F4r0_Atak]

Bingo. Would someone else please tell everyone this?

First...

Also, what?... that they misunderstood the OP in his first post? People in their nature love to see the bad side of things. It's in our gene, how we evolved. Those behaviour were always there... just got worse in the past 50 years. People are never happy with they have.

 

[schaft0620]

This might turn out bad for Sony, a lot of my friends have PS4's and they are not involved in the gaming community at all they are very casual gamers. I got a few phone calls already of miffed friends thinking that there is a "new PS4" and their consoles are obsolete. I hope they just call it the PS4 Slim or something to remove that confusion.

 

[Mister Megative]

The best part about all this? Regardless of what your personal opinion of it is, I can almost guarantee you that A: most people on here swearing off Sony and consoles forever will be there day one, and B: this thing is going to sell like crazy.

Anyone who thinks otherwise, especially on that last point, is deluding themselves.

 

[dragonfart28]

I just don't understand why they don't give users the option to tweak graphics settings.

If they are going to become PCs, then you need to give consumers the same benefits or else it's just poor value.

 

[Yoday]

The only thing they could do to convince people like myself, that PS4 versions of future games won't get the shaft, is if they showcase both versions of let's say God of War 4 at E3. If the base PS4 versions still looks amazing, plays great, and the PS4K is just better image quality and a few extra bells and whistles. I think people would be ok with it.

Issue is down the line further close to PS4's end of life, where they start porting games that run like shit, but run great on PS4K.

New hardware isn't going to dictate this, developer ambition will. Last generation saw a lot of improvement in visuals because of the steep learning curve of both consoles. Even then many games performed poorly, not because of new hardware, but because of developer ambition. The PS3 and 360 had a much higher learning curve due to the development complexity, but they eventual hit that ceiling and games started to suffer.

This generation the consoles were based on much more familiar hardware with much better tools, the learning curve wasn't there for the most part. The fact is that these were fairly weak consoles to begin with, and the power ceiling was hit pretty quickly. There are minor improvements to be made for sure, but we are already at the point where better visuals are going to come at a cost of image quality or performance. Hell, just look at AC Unity from 2014. The developers goals were already greater than what the hardware could handle, so they had to dial it back for Syndicate.

Bringing out new hardware isn't going to change the fact that developers want to do more with their games, and they will make sacrifices to make their vision happen. What new hardware does is give people an option of seeing that vision come to life without the sacrifices. Does it mean that games will probably start dropping in resolution and running with lowered settings? Yes, but that was going to happen anyway.

 

[Samurai G0SU]

I Just cant wait for the official announcement and price.

 

[valkyre]

The best part about all this? Regardless of what your personal opinion of it is, I can almost guarantee you that A: most people on here swearing off Sony and consoles forever will be there day one, and B: this thing is going to sell like crazy.

Anyone who thinks otherwise, especially on that last point, is deluding themselves.

I agree with you and that is the saddest part imo...

 

[Melchiah]

All those things you mentioned have been iterated since their inception, ps4 has not. I bought a ps4 before anyone even knew an actual ps4.5 was even a thought. This is not a normal thing with consoles.

There's always something better looming in the horizon, whether you're aware of that at the time or not. It can be Wavebird, N3DS, DS3 (after Sixaxis), bigger HDD, built-in Wi-Fi, or less loud fan. None of them prevent you from playing the same games (although, I'm not sure how it's with N3DS), and that's how it's with PS4 and PS4K as well according to the OP. The only thing it changes, is that you might perceive what you have differently, eventhough it remains the same.

When I bought 9700 Pro back in the day, and 9800 Pro followed shortly, I was naturally a bit pissed about it, but it's not like I couldn't have traded the card, or that I couldn't play the same games with less AA/AF and lower framerate on the card I had.

 

[Cereal Enthusiast]

...

And again, I agree with you, I'm sure PS4 can handle FFXV at a very stable 30 fps (the game is not that impressive IMO, especially this demo). But, if Square can't optimize it (because of the Luminous Engine or whatever), what can we do about it? What if the only way for them (the easy way probably) to get it to 30fps is more power? Again, not everyone have the time, money, energy and skill to optimize a game properly. In this case, the only solution is more power.

 

[manou001]

I bought my PS4 in early february '14, with an "unspoken agreement" with Sony that my console would be the top sony console for at least 5 years (same with Ms and my One).

I made that assumption, and it seems that assumption was wrong, that history would not repeat itself. My bad, that's on me.

I guess that's why many people (myself included) are at the very least annoyed by this rumour.

 

[Spaceking]

SCE ain't pulling the plug on 40 millions now... That would be insane.

Yeah, that would be insane.

Maybe I'm overreacting.

 

[keuja]

I wonder if that console will still be worth it for those who are not interested in 4K at all but still want more power to get better graphics and fps.

 

[F4r0_Atak]

Yeah you are probably right, and I prefer the term "PS4 Lite".

But I don't want to have the lite version. I want to have "the ultimate console version".

That makes me want to have a new gaming rig.

While I prefer the terms of PS4 Standard version or Kaioken x2.

Also, you'll never be able to get the ultimate console version. Hence why we have new generations every 5-6 years.