ss_lemonade
Member
What was the purpose for all those buttons? Did games actually use all of them? Dialling phone numbers? Running calculators?
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I think the Atari Jaguar could easily be a success
- Thread starter nkarafo
- Start date
GamerMax73
Member
The worst thing about the CD32 is that most devs couldn't even be arsed to use more than one fucking button on the controller. They just ported the Amiga joystick controls over as-is and that was it.
Joseph Merrick
Member
people got the jaguar for amiga ports? everyone here got amiga cd32 for that. tsc tsc
edit: good timing with the cd32 pic above. what a beautiful console. hehe.
nkarafo
Member
Yeah sorry about that, English is not my native language.
It was also weaker than the Jaguar. No way it could handle something like Doom. At best, it could handle games with the Wolf3D engine.
The PS1, Saturn, and N64 destroy it in 3D capabilities, and that controller wasn't going to be sufficient.
I think even if it had been initially successful, it would have been quickly overshadowed. Much like the Dreamcast, which would have quickly had problems being the only console of that generation without a second thumb stick
I think even if it had been initially successful, it would have been quickly overshadowed. Much like the Dreamcast, which would have quickly had problems being the only console of that generation without a second thumb stick
stan423321
Member
Some games used numpad for weapon select. And Rayman, well, uses it for cheats.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Jaguar never stood a chance. It did too many things wrong for the few it got right (which were pretty much just select software).
3DO was much more ambitious and was the better system out of the two for the time and still is today. And had it been priced like a normal console, could have actually shaken things up somewhat decently.
I mean, it still would have been in fourth place but I think it doing better may have actually benefited Nintendo and Sega moreso than Sony, and that's why it would've been interesting seeing it succeed in an alternate timeline.
Let's just say that with slightly more ideal circumstances applied to both Dreamcast stood a hell of a lot more of a favorable chance for success than Jaguar would.
3DO was much more ambitious and was the better system out of the two for the time and still is today. And had it been priced like a normal console, could have actually shaken things up somewhat decently.
I mean, it still would have been in fourth place but I think it doing better may have actually benefited Nintendo and Sega moreso than Sony, and that's why it would've been interesting seeing it succeed in an alternate timeline.
The controller was the least of Jaguar's problems, and in both cases new controllers could have been released to remedy those problems.
Let's just say that with slightly more ideal circumstances applied to both Dreamcast stood a hell of a lot more of a favorable chance for success than Jaguar would.
xDUMPWEEDx
Banned
The Jaguar did have some great ports but really not much else. It wasn't even that much more powerful than a Super FX'd SNES.
The biggest problem with the Jaguar is that it came out too late. If it came out in say, 1992, where it was competing against the SNES/Genesis I think it could have done much better. But having to compete against the 3DO, then Saturn/PS1? R.I.P.
We DID do the math, and the math added up to a console being way outdated by 1994/1995.
"Put it this way -- nothing's going to come along to knock Jaguar off the top"
The biggest problem with the Jaguar is that it came out too late. If it came out in say, 1992, where it was competing against the SNES/Genesis I think it could have done much better. But having to compete against the 3DO, then Saturn/PS1? R.I.P.
We DID do the math, and the math added up to a console being way outdated by 1994/1995.
"Put it this way -- nothing's going to come along to knock Jaguar off the top"
stan423321
Member
Ehhhh, no. It didn't get the "UK PS1 best seller ever" badge out of nowhere. It has some insanity that wouldn't fly too easily today without some Souls-like marketing, but blind jumps? What did you play it on, by the way? PC version is fairer but looks a little worse, PS1 version looks better but has a little more insanity in the game, Jag version generally appears to be "less finished" in most aspects. RO/RL was streamlined if anything (though still looks gorgeous).
nkarafo
Member
It was quite more powerful though.
Just compare SNES DOOM (the maximum of FX chip's potential) and Jaguar Doom. There's a huge gap in processing power right there.
I would bet the Jaguar was overall more powerful than the 32X also.
The Jaguar's biggest issue was that Atari already had the CD drive, the six button controller, the headset and the hybrid CD console lined up long before the thing even launched.
You felt like if you bought one you'd be buying more hardware sooner rather than later. It became pretty clear that these people didn't have any sort of plan. Just utter chaos and wasted money.
Add a lacklustre game lineup and...
You felt like if you bought one you'd be buying more hardware sooner rather than later. It became pretty clear that these people didn't have any sort of plan. Just utter chaos and wasted money.
Add a lacklustre game lineup and...
stan423321
Member
Super FX was so slow since it was bottlenecked by SNES cart bus anyway. If Nintendo would redesign SNES with Super FX being "inside", it would probably be a system comparable to Jag.
Robot Pants
Member
Just hitting its stride
nkarafo
Member
Eeeeh, i don't know. Allow me to have some doubts about this. The gap looks too big to be covered with just one additional chip while keeping everything else (CPU, RAM, etc) the same.
By the way, even the 32X and GBA are probably weaker systems than the Jaguar.
I am disappointed we don't have a Jaguar chalkboard image in here just yet.
RealityCheque
Banned
OP, I like that you speak in the present tense. Shows you're an optimistic kind of guy.
And I believe that you believe that the Jaguars best days are ahead! I mean it has experienced huge growth as a dentists toolbox and as a trap to benefit retro console conmen.
And I believe that you believe that the Jaguars best days are ahead! I mean it has experienced huge growth as a dentists toolbox and as a trap to benefit retro console conmen.
Tom Nook Sawyer
Member
I'd hope the GBA is; it could barely handle SNES ports and ran SuperFX ones notably worse.
GamerMax73
Member
Sure it was weaker than the Jaguar. But...
- It was easier to program for
- Cheaper
- CD Based
- Better Controller
As for Doom, may I introduce you to Alien Breed 3D, Gloom and Fears.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
I don't think so OP. And both Doom and Wolfenstein were on SNES.
Jaguar's lineup was in large part, a joke. Couple that with a garbage controller, lame marketing, and lack of the hottest games, and it did as well as it deserved to.
Jaguar's lineup was in large part, a joke. Couple that with a garbage controller, lame marketing, and lack of the hottest games, and it did as well as it deserved to.
blastprocessor
The Amiga Brotherhood
Have l gone back in time?
stan423321
Member
The basic problem with Jaguar isn't that it's weak per se (though it is), it is that the power in it is laid out in a ridiculous manner so that nobody knows what they're doing, especially when taking hardware bugs into consideration.
Compared to that GBA is quite weak but quite obvious to figure out. 32X... well it's comparable to Jaguar, but it's discussable which one is worse in usage.
nkarafo
Member
Where do you get this info from? Again, i will sit Doom as the example. GBA Doom is again superior to the SNES one in both graphics and speed.
I like SNES Doom but it's barely there. You can barely see it, it barely moves and you barely play it.
Jaguar Wolfenstein is better than the PC version.
GamerMax73
Member
When those 3 were released in 93/94 the world was already waiting for the Sega Saturn. That's even before Sony came along with the Playstation and laid waste to all before it. Alas all three sit in the same annals of history as the 32X.
The Jag with a CD drive could have competed with the Saturn/PSX but were Atari even relevant enough at the time to attract the needed 3rd party support anyway? Sony did the right thing with PSX's launch and call on the Japanese 3D Arcade heavy weights (Namco and Capcom) along with Square to support the new machine day 1.
I think the Namco/Capcom support alone was enough for PSX to beat Saturn in to the ground, and Square helped murder the N64 before it was even launched.
Of course neither Sega, Commodore, Atari, or 3DO could have foreseen any of this in 1993.
Sir Abacus
Member
Huh? The Super FX was a complete SoC on the cartridge. It had its own work RAM, its own access to the cart. Most Super FX games just ended up DMAing the completed frame back to the SNES for display and put the 65c816 into a wait loop while it assembled the frame.
stan423321
Member
Correct. However SNES (and not necessarily only SNES) DMA is fairly limited in some ways I admittedly not understand. I think you can't display anything while DMA'ing tiles. So while you had to wait for that transfer, you also had to wait for V-blank, which you could extend if you wished to, but this still had limitations. So if you throwed in a 4x faster SFX into a 20Hz game, that wouldn't be enough to make it 60Hz.
Sir Abacus
Member
I think that's more the limitations of trying to shoehorn games into something which was still effectively a 20MHz (10MHz) RISC processor. Yoshi's Island was an SFX2 game that didn't have a low frame rate.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Neither of these franchises were hits on console back then so it matters little.
The big games of the day were missing on Jaguar. No Street Fighter 2, Mortal Kombat 2, Madden Football, Acclaim titles, etc...
Not to mention the first party games weren't even in the same universe as that of Sega and Nintendo.
It's also worth noting it arrived late to the generation. Genesis and SNES were entrenched, and everyone would much rather wait for their successors then bat an eye at anything with an Atari label.
I really dont understand why some people like this
You wish
(I mean, i dont know if you wish, but i centanly do)
MisterCTwo
Member
Exactly what I thought as well.
I must confess the idea of a new Atari retro console in 2016 got me a little excited for a moment...
I'd sooner play SNES Doom. Those games run really bad on a unexpanded system.
The Jaguar had promising hardware, wasn't that expensive and the much more powerful Playstation didn't really take off until about 1997. With the right backing, I think the jag could have been successful enough. Not PlayStation level, but profitable, and a 93 to 97 lifespan is decent.
What killed the Jaguar was in part a lack of games, but also that they pushed unappealing games. Cybermorph is liked by some, but StarFox holds a significant edge. Atari Karts was lame next to Mario Kart. Etc. Rayman and Doom was good, of course, but too little too late.
What's wrong with it?
The CD attachment didn't work, so it's not like he's ruining it or anything.
GamerMax73
Member
Lol, Atari's idea of 1st party titles...
Atari 2600 - Asteroids, Breakout, Space Invaders, Asteroids, Missile Command, Warlords, Bezerk, Centipede, Defender, Pac-Man, Galaxian, Pole Position, Ballblazer, Battlezone, Choplifter
Atari 5200 - Super Breakout, Space Invaders, Missile Command, Bezerk, Centipede, Defender, Pac-Man, Galaxian, Pole Position, Ballblazer, Choplifter
Atari XEGS - Ballblazer, Battlezone, Choplifter
Atari 7800 - Asteroids, Centipede, Ms. Pac-Man, Pole Position II, Ballblazer, Choplifter
Atari Jaguar - Tempest 2000
Mmm, I think there might be a pattern here...
Tom Nook Sawyer
Member
From playing the games? The music was worse across the board for ports, and Yoshi's Island specifically couldn't fully handle all the FX chip effects, most notably in the distortion with Touch Fuzzy Get Dizzy, the lava, and some others as I recall.
I have no doubts some games ran better in some aspects--the CPU was indeed more powerful. My point was it wasn't enough to fully run every aspect of those SNES ports
stan423321
Member
Yoshi's Island didn't use SFX(2) to create the whole picture as long as I'm aware, so it obviously doesn't follow this sort of limitation. They had no business throwing in an SFX3, I mean. SFX2 basically drained out SNES's possibilities already.
GamerMax73
Member
See, I'd disagree. As with any system, what killed it was simply very few people actually put their hands in their pockets and bought one. Why? A lot of the same reasons as few people bought 3DO or CD32 at the end of the day:
PC Gaming was starting to come in to its own - replacing 16-bit micros, the SNES was showing off the SuperFX chip, Namco and Sega were showing another level of 3D in the arcades, and the Sega Saturn was expected at any moment.
Playstation's launch was just the final nail in the coffin for all three systems. Why buy a cart based Jaguar when you can have a modern 3D Saturn or Playstation? or fit a 3Dfx card in your PC? Or buy Nintendo carts with SuperFX?
stan423321
Member
Scatology.
deadscreensky
Member
I didn't like Rayman 1 either, though as other people mentioned it was a fairly large hit.
But the reason I'm posting is to say that Rayman 2 was a legitimately great game. Seriously excellent 3D platformer.
omnislayer
Member
It did look like a toilet though.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
It's a trend a lot of people like to do these days to knock on older games that were/are challenging enough to frustrate them, since they're used to the easier difficulty in games these days.
stan423321
Member
There's a whole spectrum between pointing that out and the posted animation.
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
Lol, well they had to b/c they couldn't get Sega. Not to knock Namco or Capcom but Sega's 3D arcade stuff of that decade was quite ahead of both.
I will say Tekken 3 was the coolest 3D fighter that decade from a style POV however, and Ridge Racer arguably the same from racing POV (although neither were the best built games of their genres from a mechanics perspective, which is pretty important).
Yep
So the Jaguar couldn't even chart?
I thought Rayman 1 was mediocre even at the time. I don't see how it could have helped the Jaguar much. It might be a top 5 Jaguar game, but I don't think it would even rank among the top 50 Genesis games or top 100 SNES games.