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[OhNoDangerItsaPentagonRun]

This discussion has never been about PlayStation, it has been about 3DO, and the main point has been you posting stuff you don't understand anything about, and then being corrected by more knowledgeable members - or members who even bothered to click the links you provided.

When you have ran out of arguments, you have called people babies, 3 year olds, scum, pathetic, desperate, cheaters, among other things, which I would say are in violation of the TOS of NeoGAF. It's not my place to enforce the rules, but I do hope a mod stumbles upon this thread and sees the collection of your posts I had above, it's pretty shocking for a grown up forum like NeoGAF.

You keep telling me I am posting stuff I don't understand when links with facts are before you this is why you should stop talking unless you can give examples.

All my statements were right, your little rules to cut down the library only makes you look dumb.

You've insulted me first and thus you basically just admitted you are a baby and ran out of arguments.

I mean it's hard to violate the rules when the person who is calling you out for violating the rules is pretty guilty of actually doing something wrong. That would be you.

Omitting things because you want to feel better isn't being correct by facts it's childish nitpicking, WHich not only have you done but you also insulted me first int he conversation which doesn't exactly make you look good does it.?

Anyway It's clear you are very mad and can't handle facts so it seems I'll have to let you drown in your pool of anguish. I mean it's just a games console dude.

 

[commish]

This thread has gone south fast. I can't people are getting this into the 3DO's library. If it was 300 or 400, it really doesn't matter much.

 

[HamsterPackage]

This thread has gone south fast. I can't people are getting this into the 3DO's library. If it was 300 or 400, it really doesn't matter much.

To be fair it didn't go south fast, this has been going on for 5-6 days now I think. How and why there's a discussion about the 3DO games list in a Jaguar thread is beyond me.

I've just been eating popcorn and enjoying the bickering.


I'll throw my two cents in, No games list should include duplicates, demos, or anything of the sort. Don't care what system the list is for.

 

[Celine]

To be fair it didn't go south fast, this has been going on for 5-6 days now I think. How and why there's a discussion about the 3DO games list in a Jaguar thread is beyond me.

I've just been eating popcorn and enjoying the bickering.


I'll throw my two cents in, No games list should include duplicates, demos, or anything of the sort. Don't care what system the list is for.

That's because

 

[Chittagong]

That's because

Out of his 184 total posts 115 are in this thread, and yet I struggle to find one poster who would agree on his views on 68K, Lynx being as powerful as GBA, or that demos and magazine cover discs should be counted as games. I had a glance at his post history, and besides this thread it mostly contains a lengthy NPD argument, as well as a rasist "joke" he posted along with a link to Stormfront (a neo Nazi community) - according to him because he hadn't actually read the thread to realise it's inappropriate.

Anyway, we better get this thread back to Jaguar, before we derail it completely.

Another cool memory I have about Jaguar is a tradeshow in 1994. We at the Nintendo booth had for the first time Stunt Race FX and Mortal Kombat 2 playable to the wide public. The crowds were insane.

Jaguar had decided to go for a premium positioning. Their booth was super slick, surrounded with black with the Jaguar logo on three sides, and open on one side. The booth was fenced off with a velvet rope, and at the back of it was a giant screen made out of 9 or 12 TVs, where they'd demo Tempest, AVP and other hits. On the sides of the booth were lines of playable Jaguar stations. There was also an Atari rep enthusiastically narrating the 64 bit hotness gameplay.

The only problem was that the booth was all empty. They had decided that playing Jaguar is a more exclusive experience, so you'd need an invitation to get to the booth. Invitations were handed out from a slick, shiny black Jaguar bus just outside the main hall. Needless to say, nobody was arsed to go back out, so they'd just have a glance by the velvet rope, and then come to have a game of Mortal Kombat 2 on our booth.

 

[wazoo]

Fascinating story.

It seems Atari was still living in the 70s.

 

[Chittagong]

Fascinating story.

It seems Atari was still living in the 70s.

To their benefit, I must say they really had the branding nailed down, they were probably the first console manufacturer to have such a holistic brand identity programme.

The black colour, the red and very different-looking logo, the stripes - all consistently executed in their hardware packaging, brochures, bus, show booths, POS material.

In fact, the next consoles after that having memorable, holistic identity systems were Xbox (black/green, glow, sharp), PlayStation 2 (blue/white, futuristic lettering) and Xbox 360 (white/green, circles), which I think is still the pinnacle of a holistic brand identity for a console that cut across visual identity, name, hardware, UX, everything.

But Jaguar certainly pioneered it.

 

[Krejlooc]

To their benefit, I must say they really had the branding nailed down, they were probably the first console manufacturer to have such a holistic brand identity programme.

The black colour, the red and very different-looking logo, the stripes - all consistently executed in their hardware packaging, brochures, bus, show booths, POS material.

In fact, the next consoles after that having memorable, holistic identity systems were Xbox (black/green, glow, sharp), PlayStation 2 (blue/white, futuristic lettering) and Xbox 360 (white/green, circles), which I think is still the pinnacle of a holistic brand identity for a console that cut across visual identity, name, hardware, UX, everything.

But Jaguar certainly pioneered it.

Sega actually had that stuff down prior to the Jaguar. Going back to the Master System, they had a really strong system-based visual branding for their packaging. SMS games used white grid backgrounds, then the original genesis and megadrive used the inverse (black grid). Then, in the US, they rebranded all their packaging so you could, at a glance, identify which system the game was for by color (Red - Genesis, Purple - Game Gear, Yellow - 32X, Blue - Sega CD, White - Sega Saturn).

The Jaguar did have pretty cool branding, though. I just wouldn't call it the first. Even among Atari Consoles, other systems like the 7800 had really consistent and strong branding.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Jesus, just sold a boxed Pro Controller for $325.

By the time I'm done selling everything Jaguar related that I own, I'll have made a tidy profit.

 

[Krejlooc]

Jesus, just sold a boxed Pro Controller for $325.

By the time I'm done selling everything Jaguar related that I own, I'll have made a tidy profit.

Jaguar prices are ridiculous these days, lol. I have print number 7 of 22 for the Fight For Life Beta and one of the 50 Another World prints. I wonder how much those go for. I got them both at cost, ha.

 

[Chittagong]

Sega actually had that stuff down prior to the Jaguar. Going back to the Master System, they had a really strong system-based visual branding for their packaging. SMS games used white grid backgrounds, then the original genesis and megadrive used the inverse (black grid). Then, in the US, they rebranded all their packaging so you could, at a glance, identify which system the game was for by color (Red - Genesis, Purple - Game Gear, Yellow - 32X, Blue - Sega CD, White - Sega Saturn).

The Jaguar did have pretty cool branding, though. I just wouldn't call it the first. Even among Atari Consoles, other systems like the 7800 had really consistent and strong branding.

Oh yeah, totally forgot the Master System. You're right they were first, and their system was draconian, down to the actual artwork being part of it. MegaDrive / Genesis almost had it with the futuristic black grid and flexible artwork, almost like a refined version of SMS, but then - like you mention - they broke it mid generation to create an overarching branding system across platforms

I suppose what I meant with Jaguar is that they used the system much more broadly than in just packaging - it was in POS units, tradeshows, brochures, merchandise, creating a very unified feel, which I don't remember seeing before, but then again, I didn't see much Sega marketing materials back then.

 

[petran79]

I remember differently. Nintendo was every bit as much present as Sega, perhaps aside from the UK I'd dare to say Nintendo was more present than Sega in the eye of the public. Consoles (at least those from Sega and Nintendo) were far from obscure. And I'd argue Sony or no Sony, the age of home computers was over by the mid 90s pretty much by its own doing.

One would have thought that in Europe at least, microcomputers would have managed to put more resistance against Sony. Their games were the equivalent of complex gameplay and mature story lines you see today.

Nintendo and Sega were present and dominant in Europe, but difference was the age group they were targeting. Nintendo and Sega were dominant in younger age groups. But teens and older players would rather opt for microcomputers, computers and arcade games. For arcades it mattered that in a lot of European countries you had to be 16/18+ years old to enter, in order to play violent games like Bubble Bobble.

Regarding Atari, I'd say even older computers like the 400/800 were popular in Europe in that age group.
In the US, that gap (post C64) was mostly covered with DOS games during the 80s, but computers were more expensive

While Atari and Commodore captured the key age group that lead to a commercial success in the 80s/early 90s, I think it had to do mainly with the difference in gaming approach. Sony instead of targeting that age group, that would probably have stayed on computers a little longer, preferred to target the teens that grew with Sega and Nintendo 8 and 16-bit consoles. It was far easier to communicate that type of gameplay, instead of the more difficult and frustrating computer games.

 

[Krejlooc]

Oh yeah, totally forgot the Master System. You're right they were first, and their system was draconian, down to the actual artwork being part of it. MegaDrive / Genesis almost had it with the futuristic black grid and flexible artwork, almost like a refined version of SMS

The SMS went through basically 4 phases of artwork - early genesis games were basically the exact same types of art work that late SMS games used.

The internet commonly talks up the first type, and that's the kind you're talking about:

Extremely minimalist art work, usually only in the corner. These are basically only the "launch-era" SMS games. They say "the one mega cartridge (or whatever the size of the cart)" on the side of the box in large font.

By about 1988, that style gave way to this:

Much larger, more detailed artwork that blended into the white grid. These kinds of boxes also say "the one-mega cartridge" on the side, but the font is thin and small and bold. They also included the genre of the game in the upper right corner. By the end of this era, they actually dropped the "One-mega cartridge" stuff on the side entirely, and made the font of the game name really bold and big. Games in this type include Wonderboy III, R-Type, Ys, etc.

By about 1990, they gave way to the first really major revision of SMS box art:

This type of box art is huge and really detailed and takes up almost all the front of the box. The most notable feature of this style of SMS box art is the logo - the "Sega Master System" name was no longer just a serif font, it actually was a logo with a design. This coincided with the release of the SMS II in the US. Only a few games used this style, like Mickey Mouse: Castle of Illusion.

The final major revision of SMS box art is actually the way most European SMS boxes were presented. Only one game in the US used this style - Sonic the Hedgehog. It is essentially the same style as the Genesis box art:

In europe, all SMS games after about 1990 used this box style until the system was retired. It's necessary to post the entire box because lots of things became standardized and changed. First of all, the art no longer blended into the box, rather it sat in a box about 4/5 the size of the front of the box, with an area below set aside for the game logo (which was no longer just a generic font but changed from game to game) and also an area set above for the third revision of the SMS logo (with Sega above, and "master system" in a red font below). The sides of the boxes also changed - the game name was also art work that varied from game to game, and there was a small window on the bottom side of the box that mimicked the art on the front. All games had this art, and when put together on a shelf, they would line up.

So really, the art work you're talking about with regards to the SMS is only an extreme minority of SMS titles. Those are the only types of box arts the internet really ever talks about, though. Personally, I like the late European box art style much better, and IMO it blows the non-uniform NES box arts away.

There were also weird examples of non-uniform box arts in the US from third party publishers. Activision published their games in black boxes that looked almost like genesis boxes (except for Rampage, which came in a red box):

And south america, especially brazil, mainly copied the US box art style of the time - so when the US changed to the color-based boxes to identify systems, they followed suit:

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

Sega actually had that stuff down prior to the Jaguar. Going back to the Master System, they had a really strong system-based visual branding for their packaging. SMS games used white grid backgrounds, then the original genesis and megadrive used the inverse (black grid). Then, in the US, they rebranded all their packaging so you could, at a glance, identify which system the game was for by color (Red - Genesis, Purple - Game Gear, Yellow - 32X, Blue - Sega CD, White - Sega Saturn).

The Jaguar did have pretty cool branding, though. I just wouldn't call it the first. Even among Atari Consoles, other systems like the 7800 had really consistent and strong branding.

Was just about to say this. The Japanese MegaDrive and Saturn packaging and what-have-you stuff is legendary. I also think Nintendo did a great job w/ the Super-Famicom brand design.

But it's possible Chittagong meant more in terms of American/Western presentation. To which I may have to agree Jaguar was the first and more consistent, though it also wasn't on the market long enough to go through any brand changes.

Spoiler

Jaguar's commercials paled in comparison to the MegaDrive/Genesis ones, though.

I remember differently. Nintendo was every bit as much present as Sega, perhaps aside from the UK I'd dare to say Nintendo was more present than Sega in the eye of the public. Consoles (at least those from Sega and Nintendo) were far from obscure. And I'd argue Sony or no Sony, the age of home computers was over by the mid 90s pretty much by its own doing.

All I know for sure is Master System was to UK what NES was to America. And out of the European markets the UK was definitely the largest, so Nintendo may have been more known in other nations but Sega was the console brand of choice in the largest EU market for that time, both w/ Master System and Mega-Drive. Most of Nintendo's popularity in Europe came with the Super Nintendo.

I'm not even sure if the marketshare for other European markets cumulatively measured up to the UK during that time frame (mid-80s to mid-90s).

 

[Vinland]

I came in here to give some personal anecdotal memory lane shit on how terrible the Jaguar messaging was back in the day. At the local Rhino Video Games here in the south, before GameStop bought them out, they were pretty much the only place to get one. They were overpriced at 199 and while the Saturn and PlayStation always had a kiosk or demo running the only thing they would ever show was AvP.

Of course I had one back then and still have the manuals, AvP key pad stencils and AvP manual.

AvP was great and he'll Doom was ok if you BYOM, bring your own music, but it felt they were going after MMPC gamers, remember those old PC acronyms?, and not console gamers. The controller says it all.

Spoiler

I actually loved playing AvP btw

 

[Gen X]

Awful controller
Still used Carts
Terrible Game library
Hard to program for
PS1 came out a year later.

Recipe for Success.

Do the math!

 

[Krejlooc]

I came in here to give some personal anecdotal memory lane shit on how terrible the Jaguar messaging was back in the day. At the local Rhino Video Games here in the south, before GameStop bought them out, they were pretty much the only place to get one. They were overpriced at 199 and while the Saturn and PlayStation always had a kiosk or demo running the only thing they would ever show was AvP.

Of course I had one back then and still have the manuals, AvP key pad stencils and AvP manual.

AvP was great and he'll Doom was ok if you BYOM, bring your own music, but it felt they were going after MMPC gamers, remember those old PC acronyms?, and not console gamers. The controller says it all.

Spoiler

I actually loved playing AvP btw

I bought my Jaguar from a Kay-B-Toys when they were being liquidated at $20 specifically for AVP and was terribly disappointed. The maps are convoluted and feel a real step behind Doom. It's feels much more like wolfenstein with everything being at right angles than doom. I found the Alien to be almost unplayable, the predator to be kind of dull, and the marine to be the best campaign (which was more like a metroidvania) but still not worth talking about. No music, sparse sound effects, and it ran at like 20 fps.

But I also picked up Tempest 2000 the same day, and it completely blew me away. I absolutely love the Jag version of tempest 2000, to the point that I actually built myself a rotary controller.

I actually have a complete Jaguar collection -- sans Battlesphere. I have ever other game released for the system.

 

[SmokedMeat]

All my statements were right, your little rules to cut down the library only makes you look dumb.

Rules? A demo disc is not a game. A disc made up of cartoons is not a game.

Nobody but you considers them games regardless of what platform we're talking about.

 

[Krejlooc]

Rules? A demo disc is not a game. A disc made up of cartoons is not a game.

Nobody but you considers them games regardless of what platform we're talking about.

please stop posting at the deranged person, all it will do is make him post more

 

[Freshmaker]

20+ years after its short life, the poor Jaguar can't even get a thread to itself. Hijacked by an argument about the number of 3DO games. How pitiful.

That's just like it's always been. Can't talk about the Jag without a 3D0 fan popping up.

The 68k discussion is much more interesting, and at least it's on topic. I've often assumed that was why so many Jaguar games look just like Genesis games, right down to the color depth. That's true even of games that weren't cross-plats with the Genesis, like Brutal Sports Football and Attack of the Mutant Penguins.

Most were Amiga ports.

Also the dev kits were more focused on 2d vs 3d.

Sounds like it's more nuanced than just developers sticking with the 68k out of laziness or familiarity. I remember the similar issues in regards to the Saturn and the difficulty in getting the most out of its multiple processors. Obviously, with a more high profile, successful system, more developers put in the work to do so than with the poor Jaguar.

Carmack said said that if Atari had upgraded the 68000, and added a bit of dynamic cache it could have competed with the PS. (Or at least run Quake.)

I bought my Jaguar from a Kay-B-Toys when they were being liquidated at $20 specifically for AVP and was terribly disappointed. The maps are convoluted and feel a real step behind Doom. It's feels much more like wolfenstein with everything being at right angles than doom. I found the Alien to be almost unplayable, the predator to be kind of dull, and the marine to be the best campaign (which was more like a metroidvania) but still not worth talking about. No music, sparse sound effects, and it ran at like 20 fps.

Alien takes getting used to. It's actually a rather easy campaign.

IIRC, it ran at 7fps tho.

But I also picked up Tempest 2000 the same day, and it completely blew me away. I absolutely love the Jag version of tempest 2000, to the point that I actually built myself a rotary controller.

I actually have a complete Jaguar collection -- sans Battlesphere. I have ever other game released for the system.

I mainly played Iron Soldier towards the end of the system's life.

 

[Celine]

AvP was great and he'll Doom was ok if you BYOM, bring your own music,

I still think Doom was a much better game than AvP.
AvP has some cool ideas and the textured walls looked good but it's too slow for it's own good and the maps were flat labyrinth compared to the faster action and map layouts in Doom.

 

[magicalsoundshower]

Looks like whoever translated the backstory into German didn't get the memo that Magica De Spell is called "Gundel Gaukeley" in German-speaking territories, I wonder how Disney let that slide.

But then again, they also got Webby Vanderquack's German name wrong in the German dub of "Duck Tales: The Movie".

On the Jaguar, it pains me to say that I've always been kind of interested in the Bubsy Sequel "Fractured Furry Tales" (scroll down a bit for a writeup on it) that seems to be Jaguar exclusive because it seemed to have some pretty neat visuals.

I caught a stream of someone playing it a while back and -- surprise, surprise -- it seems to play just as awfully as the other games in the series.

Other than that, I think I was always impressed by the couple of screenshots of Aliens Vs Predator that kept showing up in gaming magazines from the time, the huge sprites looked especially impressive to me. Too bad the game looks pretty choppy in motion and not all that fun.

 

[AmyS]

Here are a whole bunch of articles on Atari's big cat console.

From humble beginnings--rumors of an Atari 16-bit game console stemming from 1988/1989, to the cancelled Atari Panther, right through the Jaguar's launch, all the way to the release of AvP in late 1994.

Enjoy.

Electronic Gaming Monthly (Edit: also an article from Game Player's and another from an Amiga magazine called The One)

GamePro:

 

[nkarafo]

Thanks for all the scans and information you provided.

 

[AmyS]

Thanks for all the scans and information you provided.

It's so much fun reading this stuff, and sharing it.

Here are four articles on the Lynx. Three from EGM, one from VG&CE.

 

[parkinho]

Thanks for all the scans and information you provided.

I wish to echo this sentiment.

 

[AmyS]

I wish to echo this sentiment.

Thank you, parkinho

 

[AmyS]

In light of the mysterious new 'AtariBox' teaser / news, supposedly based on modern hardware (not my words), I'm bumping this again so people can read the articles on Jaguar (and Lynx).