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Vox: The Smug Style in American Liberalism

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Croatoan

They/Them A-10 Warthog
The whole "a pox on both their houses" and painting yourself as tortured, special flower makes your post the most smug of them all.

How is advocating thinking for yourself bad? Both parties have the fan boys and girls that do nothing but spout rhetoric.

That said, yes, I am smug as fuck. Its a personality flaw that comes from my irrational belief that I am the smartest person in the room. Sorry if it offended you. Yes I have sought help.
 

FlyinJ

Douchebag. Yes, me.
Someone has to be the bigger person and compromise though. Otherwise It will just further adversity.

The left wing compromised for three decades with the right wing, and that just lead to the right wing taking advantage of the left wing's "weakness" and doubling down on their oppressive social policies.

They found this strategy so effective now the entire basis of their platform is to never offer a single concession.

How are you supposed to be "the bigger person" in that situation.
 
There certainly is something deeply troublesome about the modern "left" - the media, the politicians it backs, the systems of power and control it helps support. That smugness masks a deep-seated hypocrisy and warped sense of entitlement. I've long since come to see the left and right as two sides of the same shitty coin. The left/right opposition helps those in power so they fuel it at every turn, but it's of no use to regular people. People in power shape it, that's why it has become so ugly.

It's of course also a largely irrelevant divide, because at the political and economic level, the right and left both support the same systems of power and control that help create wars and poverty and inequality. That's the big joke on all of us.

In a way I almost respect the right more because they are more open about their shittyness. Whereas the left hide behind this total facade while being almost every bit as shitty where it really matters. If you're going to be a total shitlord, at least be honest about it.

I also think the rise of a politician like Bernie Sanders, for example, is an acknowledgement and a realization from a sizeable portion of the population of the above.
 
The tone described in this article is just as likely to be used against other liberals who do not wholly embrace the underlying sentiment of the cause du jour.


This pops up on GAF all the time. If you disagree with the majority you get mocked and hand waived away by a loud handful posters who seem to do so with impunity in almost every thread.
 
Yeah, all it takes to see how smug liberals are is to see how some of them talk about a man who is literally just a quintessentially great and smart guy running for president, and think legitimate lines of attack are "he's not even a democrat," or "his ideas are too progressive."

The Democratic Party has invited its members to crawl far, far up their own asses. Though not as far as some republicans.

Everyone should just be willing to consider that they're wrong from time to time. It helps you come across as less of a jackass :)
 

Carcetti

Member
I can't believe I read the whole article.

The core of it is that unless you empathize genuinely with people who hate you or may even wish to harm you and prevent you from living your life as you please, you are a smug and bad person. Nice.
 

sflufan

Banned
They make a fantastic argument for shutting down their whole channel and establishing The Young Technocrats.

I knew that the link was the the Young Turks before even clicking on it.

As someone who believes that an elitist technocracy is the only acceptable form of governance, I will financially support a channel called "The Young Technocrats".
 

MisterR

Member
This pops up on GAF all the time. If you disagree with the majority you get mocked and hand waived away by a loud handful posters who seem to do so with impunity in almost every thread.

Yep. There is an overbearing, smug as hell element to a lot of the liberal issues theads on GAF. It turns me off to their arguments, and I'm very liberal and inclined to support them naturally. So I can't imagine what it does to people on the fence. That said, conservatives are frequently very smug as well, and their smugness is even more infuriating, because they have an arrogant pride of ignorance frequently.
 

Owensboro

Member
It seems like he's saying something like: It doesn't matter if you think you're right, if you have data to back yourself up, or even if you are absolutely 100% correct, just don't be a smug dick about. Don't insult, don't mock, don't condescend. I can totally get behind that for basically anything in life. It's almost summed up in saying "You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar" since each side probably views the other as a fly anyway. The funny part is watching people get upset because he's only calling out one side and then immediately switch to being a smug dick back to the other side. Keep that cycle going!

The fuck is up with the vernacular on that article, "Good Facts" smh

I assume it's an allusion to people calling the Bible the "Good Book".
 
While I kinda dislike the tone of anti-intellectualism going on through the article, I agree with the underlying message of not being a dick to people based on generalizations and overly-partisan politics.
 

kavanf1

Member
I think the article ties well into the whole concept of identity politics (beloved on GAF) and the "regressive left" that the likes of Dave Rubin is trying to draw attention to.

Regressive left being "a political epithet used to pejoratively describe those within the liberal camp who advocate progressive values but also tolerate certain illiberal ideologies in defense of multiculturalism" - though Rubin has broadened this to cover those on the left who attack fellow lefties (and anyone else) in their quest to claim themselves the "most tolerant". For example, those who cry sexism over the likes of this when, if you even read two sentences past the headline, is actually nothing of the sort, but it helps them to feel better about themselves, and sadly that's the main thing.

The way Rubin puts it is that this regressive left are the left's equivalent of the right's Tea Party. The narrative is focussed on these extreme perspectives, while more moderate people from both camps sigh and wish that the agenda hadn't been hijacked.

I consider myself as moderate leaning towards liberal, and I find it deeply disappointing when I see how people are so quick to jump to label individuals or groups as racist, sexist or whatever, based on little more than a headline and a gut reaction. Between that and the identity politics that demands not just equality, but preferential treatment, while at the same time vilifying anyone who dares to have been born white, or male, or whatever the issue du jour calls for, it puts the left in a bad place. It's a straight up contradiction of liberal principles of equality which are supposed to be a cornerstone of left wing politics.
 

Eidan

Member
Tone isn't the reason why the Democratic Party lost the "silent majority". That majority's healthy disdain for the negro was. And I don't believe tone is the reason why those individuals continue to vote Republican.

Honestly this article further shows me that people are so used to the American left being beaten, denigrated, and cowed, that the moment it shows a semblance of a backbone, there's a strong urge to have liberals "take a gentler approach".
 

mxgt

Banned
This pops up on GAF all the time. If you disagree with the majority you get mocked and hand waived away by a loud handful posters who seem to do so with impunity in almost every thread.

Yep, it's pretty insufferable.

No reason for a Republican to ever get involved in Political threads here.
 

FlyinJ

Douchebag. Yes, me.
Tone isn't the reason why the Democratic Party lost the "silent majority". That majority's healthy disdain for the negro was. And I don't believe tone is the reason why those individuals continue to vote Republican.

Honestly this article further shows me that people are so used to the American left being beaten, denigrated, and cowed, that the moment it shows a semblance of a backbone, there's a strong urge to have liberals "take a gentler approach".

My thoughts exactly.
 

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
Yep, it's pretty insufferable.

No reason for a Republican to ever get involved in Political threads here.

I'm still amazed that there are posters who still routinely "out" themselves as conservatives in high profile politically charged topics. Usually each post is accompanied by a dozen or so people trying to bait them into posting something ignorant or offensive so they can dog pile with impunity.

I have to admit I do take some pleasure in the spectacle but it certainly isn't conducive to a good discussion. It's hard to resist the temptation though.
 

aeolist

Banned
on the one hand i'm very much against people being shitty to each other generally, on the other hand there are plenty of examples of poor people on the right voting in ways that are so blitheringly stupid it defies belief. people on medicaid and food stamps putting a governor in office whose campaign was run on the platform of kicking them off of medicaid and food stamps are factually voting against their interests. there's not a nicer way to put that.

trump has shown at this point that a rather large portion of republican voters are not all that attached to the right wing's economic orthodoxy, but clearly they're still in love with conservative social policies. and if you want a leftist candidate who's openly trying to appeal to less educated working class white voters we have bernie sanders, who does have some crossover appeal but not a lot.

the question becomes "how do we get people to prioritize different things?" mockery and snobbery don't help, but in those extreme cases i don't think that anything would. someone who votes for the conservative social crusade du jour over having access to food and health care isn't going to become a democrat just because we empathize with them.
 

jwhit28

Member
While I kinda dislike the tone of anti-intellectualism going on through the article, I agree with the underlying message of not being a dick to people based on generalizations and overly-partisan politics.

Is it being a dick though to point out that someone's political and economical policies aren't working? I mean what are you supposed to say to someone that voted Republican in Kansas, or Republicans in NC that voted for a state government solving a problem that didn't exist at the cost of jobs and state image?

"You'll get them next time guys!"
 
on the one hand i'm very much against people being shitty to each other generally, on the other hand there are plenty of examples of poor people on the right voting in ways that are so blitheringly stupid it defies belief. people on medicaid and food stamps putting a governor in office whose campaign was run on the platform of kicking them off of medicaid and food stamps are factually voting against their interests. there's not a nicer way to put that.

trump has shown at this point that a rather large portion of republican voters are not all that attached to the right wing's economic orthodoxy, but clearly they're still in love with conservative social policies. and if you want a leftist candidate who's openly trying to appeal to less educated working class white voters we have bernie sanders, who does have some crossover appeal but not a lot.

the question becomes "how do we get people to prioritize different things?" mockery and snobbery don't help, but in those extreme cases i don't think that anything would. someone who votes for the conservative social crusade du jour over having access to food and health care isn't going to become a democrat just because we empathize with them.

This is the best post you've written. This summed up my feelings pretty much exactly.
 

Arkeband

Banned
Yeah, I don't get it.

Excusing the absence of facts basically means you're no longer having a debate.

I would treat "liberals" who are anti-GMO or anti-vaccination with the same incredulousness as I'd treat a right-winger who thinks minorities just need to try harder.
 

aeolist

Banned
Yeah, I don't get it.

Excusing the absence of facts basically means you're no longer having a debate.

I would treat "liberals" who are anti-GMO or anti-vaccination with the same incredulousness as I'd treat a right-winger who thinks minorities just need to try harder.

i mean a lot of the time it's just

65205426.jpg


being a correct shitlord is effectively as bad as being an incorrect saint if you're trying to persuade someone.

the problem i have with the article is the idea that everyone being right and nice will actually fix anything. it won't.
 

Sianos

Member
Tone isn't the reason why the Democratic Party lost the "silent majority". That majority's healthy disdain for the negro was. And I don't believe tone is the reason why those individuals continue to vote Republican.

Honestly this article further shows me that people are so used to the American left being beaten, denigrated, and cowed, that the moment it shows a semblance of a backbone, there's a strong urge to have liberals "take a gentler approach".
Indeed.

I agree that liberals can be a bit too anti-PC towards conservatives sometimes and they might offend them with their tone. Those sensitive conservatives who just want everyone to be a little more politically correct.

I am fully for the principle of general civility, but I'm also going to compromise when people complain about political correctness by doing my part to combat it for them. ;)

Snark aside, I recognize that people and their programming may be closely intertwined, but they are not intrinsic and as such I separate the two. People CAN be educated no matter what, it's just that some people's whole identities are sometimes build on falsities and hate, in which case excising those falsities and hate painlessly can be quite difficult. Some people hold their notions of racial and gender superiority and the inferiority of minorities as a core part of who they are, and although I'm not going to give up on them, I do recognize the road will be hard.

My way of educating is to lay out arguments bolstered by reason and psychology. That doesn't make me smug or an elitist, that just means that I've showed up to the debate prepared. I aim to be polite until someone throws the general principle of civility in the trash - after which I must demonstrate why that is a bad idea - or their hatred of, for instance gay people, goes too far and I have to lay down some perspective.

I also constantly internally pound away at my own arguments and read many particularly conservative sources to better forge and improve myself. Education is a process, and with the exception of some very basic ideas like "black people are equal human beings" I'm not intrinsically correct. That is the key, I think.
 
i mean a lot of the time it's just

65205426.jpg


being a correct shitlord is effectively as bad as being an incorrect saint if you're trying to persuade someone.

the problem i have with the article is the idea that everyone being right and nice will actually fix anything. it won't.

This. Most of the time on GAF the snark doesn't show up until either

a) Some tragic or otherwise predictable news story surfaces and is met with sarcasm / humor as a coping mechanism or to illustrate it's a recurring problem, or
b) Someone "uneducated" on the subject asks what the deal is, and they're "legit curious" about why the left feels the way they do about certain subjects, e.g. liking black people

I've been in plenty of threads, mainly those dealing with sexuality (Last and probably final "would you date a transgender individual" thread, sexual preferences and racism thread, etc.) where people have come in with centrist or even legitimately right-leaning opinions expressing confusion / curiosity and have come out of it having learned something thanks to leftGAF actually educating them on the subject. We've got plenty of people on here that write dissertations for questions just as much as they do counterarguments (mumei [RIP], MHWilliams, etc.) and are nothing but welcoming in the proper context. People who are only seeing leftists on GAF as bitter, snarky assholes that sick an ensemble of Mortal Kombat characters on poor innocent concern trolls are seeing what they want to see.

There's a very fine and very discernible line between "Can someone explain the concept of safe spaces to me? I don't live in an environment where the subject comes up very much so I don't have a whole lot to go off of, but even if I don't agree with this BLM chapter's methods I can at least kind of understand where they were coming from" and "Serious question: how does BLM expect to get anything done when they keep trying to segregate white people out of their safe spaces? I thought the whole point was equality, why are they resorting to straight-up racism like this?"
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
The problem is that human beings become very pleased with themselves when they believe they are correct about something that another person is incorrect about, regardless of whether that is actually true.

It is possible to be adamant about things you feel are rationally correct without being a self-satisfied asshole who acts like the universe has stuck a gold star on your cheek, but it requires careful self-assessment. But people don't want to think that way. They want to be a winner for proving the other person is a loser and rub faces in it. This ironically tends to lead down a slippery slope away from the rational because it's no longer about finding the truth, but having something to be right about and keep being a winner.

And the kicker is that smugness and condescension actively work against the goal of convincing other people that there are facts which should inform them to change positions. Which invites a downward spiral of:

Smug person: "You're just too stupid to understand facts."

Audience: "Fuck you, you're a prick."

Smug person: "See? You're stupid!"

I don't think any of this means that a person can't and shouldn't act incredulous at very bad ideas, outrageous claims, and dangerous bullshit. The challenge comes in the fine line between a bad idea and the person who holds the idea. It's just plain easier, quicker, and lazier, to attack a person in order to make their ideas seem bad by association. And even if some people are, in fact, literally dumb, merely taking the cheap way out by default sets a bad image and terrible, counter-productive precedent. I tend to be of the policy that if you're going to attack an individual, it better be for some damn good reasons, not just because you don't like them very much or don't like their ideas.

The truth is, most people who have detrimental ideas are not in a position to do great harm with them - they may only, collectively, support and prop up those who are in a position to be dangerous. You won't win over those individuals by treating them as the devil their ideas may have helped to create. It's hard for human beings to think like this because they are wired up to label, box, and store away everything they encounter in order to quickly deal with potential threats and allies.
 

Parch

Member
This pops up on GAF all the time. If you disagree with the majority you get mocked and hand waived away by a loud handful posters who seem to do so with impunity in almost every thread.
Extends to a lot more than politics.

The impact of the internet isn't being emphasized enough. The anonymity of a lot of sites leads to a lot of smug and rude behavior. People say stuff on the internet that they would never say to somebody's face. Now that we've got generations that have spent their entire lives being a smartass on the internet they bring the same attitude to their real lives.

Social media and the internet has not been a good thing for polite and respectful behavior.
 

ApharmdX

Banned
"The trouble is that stupid hicks don't know what's good for them. They're getting conned by right-wingers and tent revivalists until they believe all the lies that've made them so wrong. They don't know any better. That's why they're voting against their own self-interest."

Ok. Well, this is a true statement.

The article basically reads, "well, you should tolerate the intolerant and convince them slowly and sweetly." Fucking why? Some issues are non-negotiable. What people do with their own bodies, that's non-negotiable. This includes a woman's right to choose, LGBT freedoms and protections. "My sky god says..." is not a valid excuse for infringing on the human rights of others. And I extend this to include police violence against blacks and Latinos, as well as freedom of (or from!) religion.

Instead of smug, the left should be angrier. Because we are right, and these people are morally wrong.

I notice a tendency for young liberals to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like if you agree nearly lockstep with what they say, but have a problem with one point and try to convince them of your perspective, you're in danger of being "one of them" or something.

This pops up on GAF all the time. If you disagree with the majority you get mocked and hand waived away by a loud handful posters who seem to do so with impunity in almost every thread.

Yes, the left has a huge problem with eating our own. Do liberals actually believe that, despite some issues with tone, Bernie Sanders doesn't care about the black cause, or women's rights, or LGBT Americans? Do liberals actually believe that, despite taking donations from big banks, that economic justice is something that Hillary Clinton doesn't support? Ultimately we spend a lot of time savaging each other on the left over minutiae, when we should be focused on how to come together to shift America where it needs to be.
 

BeesEight

Member
So is this article only meant to be read by white men? Because if they're really asking minorities or women to empathize with republican voters then lm-fucking-aooooooooooooooooo.

"Hey these people want to enslave you and/or cheer when the police shoot you in the back and/or take away your reproductive rights. Be nice to them!"

This was my reading as well. The audience for this article feels... narrow. It goes to great lengths to mention how the supporters of the Democratic Party are pulled from both white, college educated liberals and from the minority poor.

It then goes into this long tirade against the white, college educated supporter's smugness all the while holding up minority issues as seemingly trivial matters that the left uses to condescend the right.

The example of Kim Davis is rather telling. The author mentions how it was just one county clerk out of all the states that refused to comply with the law. I suppose, in a sense, it's remarkable that only one public servant decided her religious beliefs were more important than the law of the land. On the other hand, in all the other countries that legalized same-sex marriage, there were 0 civil servants who refused to do their job based on religious convictions. It's just as sad that there was a greater expectation for the citizenry to unlawfully disobey the law as there was one woman willing to be that pariah.

And it basically skirts the reactionary laws passed after the Supreme Court decision, often doubling down on transgender issues like the recent legislature in North Carolina. It doesn't address the racial motivations of Republican policy or rhetoric. And what about the whole discourse around abortion and the blatant denigration from the right over women? Are we to assume that those are unimportant to the matter? After all, the article's premise is that the main issue the Democratic party needs to address is getting poor whites on board with their social aid programs.

I can't tell if the author is positing that if you're gay, black, female or not-Christian if your concerns aren't an issue because they've already been addressed - liberalism has already given you what you want so you're good - or if you simply shouldn't care that the political discourse from the opposite spectrum is so blatantly damning of you.

Are minority concerns simply not as important? Or are their concerns just a further manifestation of liberal smugness?

It's a polite way to ignore the deeply troubling beliefs held by many Republicans - and particularly white poor people - and simply posits that liberalism should really... do what? I'm not entirely certain.

I can say it's very difficult to treat random conservatives who consider you an abomination, mistake or simply a sinning deviant with empathy and respect when they'd be more than happy to see what ground you've gained through these painful years taken away. The Vox writer sums this up as 7 days of county inconvenience. Or perhaps it's just the contrivance of having to use another bakery.

But really, we should see things from their point? We should try and empathize with them?

I'm having a hard time with this. I guess I'm sorry if conservative feelings are hurt that I paint broadly across their ideological platform as being hateful and bigoted. But I'm having a hard time believing that sugar-coating or even ignoring those aspects is really going to make my future or those of other vulnerable minorities safer.

I'd love if the only divide between the political spectrum were economy policies or whatnot. But so long as human dignity still needs to be fought for in the political sphere, I'm not going to stop defending acceptance - even if that makes me smug or an asshole or an adherent to the "Good Facts."
 

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
Extends to a lot more than politics.

The impact of the internet isn't being emphasized enough. The anonymity of a lot of sites leads to a lot of smug and rude behavior. People say stuff on the internet that they would never say to somebody's face. Now that we've got generations that have spent their entire lives being a smartass on the internet they bring the same attitude to their real lives.

Social media and the internet has not been a good thing for polite and respectful behavior.

This is pretty much true.

Now combine that with the fact that, as evidenced by this thread, many liberals believe that ALL right wingers are bigots and therefore not worthy of discourse and deserving of scorn. In their minds, not only is the rudeness warranted, their attitude is actually contributing to the advancement of rights. When you have a free swing like that at right wingers on the Internet and elsewhere, who wouldn't take it?

So I think it begins with recognition that 40-50% of the US population aren't necessarily bigots before dialogue is possible.
 

aeolist

Banned
This is pretty much true.

Now combine that with the fact that, as evidenced by this thread, many liberals believe that ALL right wingers are bigots and therefore not worthy of discourse and deserving of scorn. In their minds, not only is the rudeness warranted, their attitude is actually contributing to the advancement of rights. When you have a free swing like that at right wingers on the Internet and elsewhere, who wouldn't take it?

So I think it begins with recognition that 40-50% of the US population aren't necessarily bigots before dialogue is possible.

the acknowledgement that needs to happen is that 40-50% of the US population supports a bigoted political platform, which is distinct from them necessarily being bigoted themselves. it may just mean they value other things over republican social policy, but trump is showing that you can largely dump the right wing's sacred cows in foreign policy and economics and still appeal to a big chunk of them through prejudice so i'm starting to doubt that more and more.
 

FlyinJ

Douchebag. Yes, me.
This is pretty much true.

Now combine that with the fact that, as evidenced by this thread, many liberals believe that ALL right wingers are bigots and therefore not worthy of discourse and deserving of scorn. In their minds, not only is the rudeness warranted, their attitude is actually contributing to the advancement of rights. When you have a free swing like that at right wingers on the Internet and elsewhere, who wouldn't take it?

So I think it begins with recognition that 40-50% of the US population aren't necessarily bigots before dialogue is possible.

The unfortunate part is that the vast majority of non-bigot/racist conservatives support the Republicans which pushes forth bigoted and racist policies.

If the Democratic Party pushed bigoted and racist policies there is no way I would vote or identify with them either.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
No, the photo and the correlating graph shows that white people have not abandoned liberalism. A five point decline, that at times over the past two decades has increased and decreased, is not even close to an "abandoning." No matter how you parse the data, that remains a constant. Religious white? Yes. Deep South white? Yes, but not to the degree that seems be bandied about.

If you have something that shows a mass exodus by whites from liberalism, by all means, provide the data. I'm willing to look at it. But even when viewing major election voting patterns, they seem to hold steady. 40 percent of white people voted for Dukakis and 39.4 percent voted for Obama.

You seem to have entirely dropped the working class angle and now the debate is about the magnitude of the shift of white voters away from the Democratic party. Also, as I noted, I don't think two decades is the time period people are talking about. The Dukakis analogy (which I think you offered in good faith in order to respond to the criticism that two decades is not the timeline people are talking about) is also bad because a lower percentage of everyone voted for Dukakis, so if there was a secular trend in either direction (or none at all as you assert) among white voters you'd expect Dukakis to be a low outlier. You'll want to look more broadly then specific presidential candidates. I'm thinking more broadly of southern realignment starting under Nixon as a reaction to civil rights... a process that continues today as state realignment finishes happening. Ten years ago, most southern legislatures were overwhelmingly democratic; today they are overwhelmingly Republican. This has happened largely because conservative [note: I believe your original argument with Mumei was pretty fast and loose with whether the debate was whites abandoning liberalism or whites abandoning the Democratic party] whites have started voting, and in many cases re-registering as, Republicans. Much of the research on this phenomenon has focused on what social psychologists call racial resentment. The most recent book of several I've read about how racial resentment has been seen in electoral cycles is Obama's Race, which look at race's impact in the 2008 primary and general election campaign.
 

DOWN

Banned
Most people wouldn't want to have to live by the stigma and rules of society in the 40s and 50s, so society keeps moving away from conservative views over time. So yeah, liberal ideas tend to be right at least socially and conservatives take forever to stop dictating shitty rules to people.
 

RDreamer

Member
Yeah, I don't get it.

Excusing the absence of facts basically means you're no longer having a debate.

I would treat "liberals" who are anti-GMO or anti-vaccination with the same incredulousness as I'd treat a right-winger who thinks minorities just need to try harder.

This.

And it's not even "I would" it's "I absolutely do" treat them the same.

Spout shit. Get hit... with facts.

This is pretty much true.

Now combine that with the fact that, as evidenced by this thread, many liberals believe that ALL right wingers are bigots and therefore not worthy of discourse and deserving of scorn. In their minds, not only is the rudeness warranted, their attitude is actually contributing to the advancement of rights. When you have a free swing like that at right wingers on the Internet and elsewhere, who wouldn't take it?

So I think it begins with recognition that 40-50% of the US population aren't necessarily bigots before dialogue is possible.

Probably more than 40-50% of the US population are definitely bigoted on some sort of topic. I'd probably put it at like 90% honestly. You don't have live your life making nazi solutes to have a terrible opinion on something. We all do. I don't say this as someone free from criticism. Shit like racism is in almost all of us. That's just a fact.

Obviously not ALL right wingers are bigots, but when the two top people for the republican party are Ted Cruz and Donald Trump.... Look at their rhetoric. If you want to claim you're "right wing" and not a bigot I sure hope to fuck you're not for either of those two... or really almost anyone in the modern republican party. Nowadays right wing and not a bigot makes you a democrat in my opinion. That's what sucks about all of this. There isn't much of a choice left, and I think that's also why a lot of us liberals get a bit heated sometimes.
 
This is pretty much true.

Now combine that with the fact that, as evidenced by this thread, many liberals believe that ALL right wingers are bigots and therefore not worthy of discourse and deserving of scorn. In their minds, not only is the rudeness warranted, their attitude is actually contributing to the advancement of rights. When you have a free swing like that at right wingers on the Internet and elsewhere, who wouldn't take it?

So I think it begins with recognition that 40-50% of the US population aren't necessarily bigots before dialogue is possible.

OTOH, Trump and Cruz have offered completely incoherent platforms except that Trump supports white racial superiority and Cruz supports Christian superiority.

They're getting a combined 75% of the vote.
 

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
the acknowledgement that needs to happen is that 40-50% of the US population supports a bigoted political platform, which is distinct from them necessarily being bigoted themselves. it may just mean they value other things over republican social policy, but trump is showing that you can largely dump the right wing's sacred cows in foreign policy and economics and still appeal to a big chunk of them through prejudice so i'm starting to doubt that more and more.

The unfortunate part is that the vast majority of non-bigot/racist conservatives support the Republicans which pushes forth bigoted and racist policies.

If the Democratic Party pushed bigoted and racist policies there is no way I would vote or identify with them either.

I think this election might be an interesting crossroads for a lot of Republicans so a lot of that dialogue is more crucial than ever. The party is going to be doing a lot of soul searching because it's clear that much of the party finds Trump's rhetoric unpalatable (and not in a snarky "lol don't make racism obvious guys" kinda way). I think for many people, they vote Republican because they legitimately believe that's the party to vote for for personal freedoms and lower taxes and there generally isn't much thought past that.

My hope isn't so much that liberals are going to go out there and convert people to the Democratic Party so much as making leftist ideas more palatable to Republicans so that a new Republican Party shifts back to the left to where it was before Reagan. I think adopting a more open stance for dialogue on the issues is necessary for this shift.
 
I'm surrounded by middle aged white conservatives everywhere in my life but at home. It beats any semblance of smugness out of you when you're afraid of the ramifications on work relationships to even acknowledge gay and trans people as something other than an act put on by Welfare Queens or proof the devil exists.

Part of the problem in my estimation then is vast (especially online) echo chambers where people preach to the choir all day because they consider it too difficult or meaningless to discuss issues with people they disagree with.

In truth they value those people as human beings less at least to some degree, although usually only revealing this tangentially in passing and vehemently denying it directly, and I think deep down feel justified in doing so because the other side of the aisle is equally guilty of this. Certainly not implying this is true for all liberals, and certainly I've seen and engaged in meaningful dialogues where issues and differing opinions are exchanged with common courtesy and respect, but just my take on the phenomenon being described in this article.
 
Nah I do not agree with the article at all, if anything the liberal's problem is that liberal are too fucking meek and gentle.

What do conservatives/Republicans do with power? They go for the whole fucking hog. They're not going to pick away at something, like liberals do, they go for outright bans and wholesale changes and fuck you if you don't like it.

Liberals are meek and worry too much about making too big of changes. i.e. the healthcare bill, liberals got scared at the last moment and didn't go for the whole thing and thusly ended up with a bill nobody could like.

Also why should we approach our conservative brothern with anything but scorn especially when you're a minority and they are directly against things that make your life better or they just outright hate you? I'll gladly be smug against them.
 
I don't think any liberal can deny this smugness existing. We are seeing it used from both the Sanders and Hillary camps and directing it at each other.

"Lol, Bernie is unelectable. You Bernie fans just haven't realized it."
"Why can't these minorities see that Bernie is the best candidate for them?."
 

aeolist

Banned
I think this election might be an interesting crossroads for a lot of Republicans so a lot of that dialogue is more crucial than ever. The party is going to be doing a lot of soul searching because it's clear that much of the party finds Trump's rhetoric unpalatable (and not in a snarky "lol don't make racism obvious guys" kinda way). I think for many people, they vote Republican because they legitimately believe that's the party to vote for for personal freedoms and lower taxes and there generally isn't much thought past that.

My hope isn't so much that liberals are going to go out there and convert people to the Democratic Party so much as making leftist ideas more palatable to Republicans so that a new Republican Party shifts back to the left to where it was before Reagan. I think adopting a more open stance for dialogue on the issues is necessary for this shift.

the republican party was in shambles before reagan, i don't think they're in any hurry to go back to that when their current tactics have been so successful at every level of government except the presidency.
 
I think this election might be an interesting crossroads for a lot of Republicans so a lot of that dialogue is more crucial than ever. The party is going to be doing a lot of soul searching because it's clear that much of the party finds Trump's rhetoric unpalatable (and not in a snarky "lol don't make racism obvious guys" kinda way). I think for many people, they vote Republican because they legitimately believe that's the party to vote for for personal freedoms and lower taxes and there generally isn't much thought past that.

My hope isn't so much that liberals are going to go out there and convert people to the Democratic Party so much as making leftist ideas more palatable to Republicans so that a new Republican Party shifts back to the left to where it was before Reagan. I think adopting a more open stance for dialogue on the issues is necessary for this shift.

... But most of the #NeverTrump people support Cruz who is even worse than Trump.

Cruz calls trans women mentally ill rapists, supports people that want to murder gays, most of his friends and advisers think Obama is a Muslim. Cruz wants to massacre Muslim civilians with indiscriminate bombing, overturn gay marriage, monitor Muslim neighborhoods, deport 11 million people, build a wall along the Mexican border... Cruz praised Jesse Helms.

This is Jesse Helms:

After several years as director of the North Carolina Bankers Association in Raleigh and a term on the City Council, Helms bought a part interest in a conservative Raleigh television station, becoming its first on-camera editorialist. His five-minute commentaries were called The Voice of Free Enterprise in Raleigh-Durham. During the civil-rights era (Helms called it the civil-rights uproar), Helms made a reputation for himself by opposing everything the civil-rights movement stood for, leading what The Charlotte Observer called "the rear-guard action against racial equality."

Helms's 2,700 editorials over the next 12 years made him a hero with conservatives in the villages and farming communities. Helms's invective against "restless Negroes" and college students who indulged in "riotous weekends at beaches in Florida ... where orgies and mayhem are highly advertised" was also carried over the 70 stations of the Tobacco Radio Network and reprinted in more than 50 small-town newspapers.

At a time when many Southern whites were outraged by the sight of young blacks blocking streets in demonstrations and sitting in at lunch counters, Helms encouraged resistance to change. Recurring themes in his editorials were the pending apocalypse and the immorality of blacks. While the Southern white constabulary was routinely mistreating and sometimes condoning the killing of blacks, he contributed to further inflaming racial feelings by accusing the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. of "holding himself above the law."

"Crime rates and irresponsibility among Negroes are facts of life which must be faced,"he said.

Helms opposed busing, the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. He once referred to the University of North Carolina (UNC) as the "University of Negroes and Communists".[264][265][266][267] Helms called the Civil Rights Act of 1964 "the single most dangerous piece of legislation ever introduced in the Congress", and sponsored legislation to either extend it to the entire country or scrap it altogether.[166]

Cruz is probably the worst famous person in America other than his father and he's the main #NeverTrump person.
 
Its difficult to be compassionate with a group who believes that anyone who doesn't adhere to their rigid and draconian definition of Faith and ''Family Values'' is destined to burn in a lake of fire for all eternity.

So you are intolerant of people who have different views than you, got it.
 

Ogodei

Member
It's a hard bill of goods to buy because the white working-class GOP base abandoned ship when the left passed civil rights. In the Roosevelt era (either Roosevelt, really) they were fine with progress as long as they could keep excluding the colored, and things like the third-rail nature of Medicare and Social Security mean that most of that base is fine with progress today... as long as it benefits white people.

The margin of the country that embraces conservatism end-to-end is much smaller than the proportion of power the GOP has, and the reason why conservatism is disproportionately represented is all down to race.
 
This is objectively dumb. It's the same spacious reasoning that has conservatives wailing when they are called out on their racism.

No-one is looking to ban Christians from going to church, or getting married in church, or not having abortions. It is only the Christian right who seek to impose their beliefs and values onto other people, and thus they are the ones called out on it. They *are* intolerant, they *are* bigoted, and they will be called that because it's simply the truth.

You don't get to spend decades calling for people to be treated as second class citizens, telling people they should have less rights, calling for violence, calling for intolerance - and then complain when people call you out on those very same actions!

Just like liberals trying to impose their beliefs and values about how I should live my life, and take the money I earn through the government?

Liberals try to impose their view unto others through the force of government FAR more than conservatives do.
 

NimbusD

Member
Smuggest liberals I've ever seen. Takes about 5 seconds for you to get the entire idea of the full video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tmaXB-NprOM

Yeah I mean that's pretty smug, but tame compared to the kind of shit that's out there. It's pretty much turned into people demanding that they see the world their way.

Instead of defending the rights of those who've had the stripped away or are more likely to be abused, it's turned into people DEMANDING that people see the world a certain way and nothing else is acceptable.
 
When said views are not based on scientific reality and compassion, I see no reason for tolerance.

You have every right to believe that. I think your views are shared with a lot of liberal minded people.

Yes that is painting a broad brush, but it's from experience. I don't disagree with your logic to not be tolerant of something you strongly disagree with.

But I think is a straight lie that liberals are known as tolerant/compassionate and conservatives thought to be the opposite.

Also you must really hate Muslims.
 
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