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Vox: The Smug Style in American Liberalism

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Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
the republican party was in shambles before reagan, i don't think they're in any hurry to go back to that when their current tactics have been so successful at every level of government except the presidency.

I don't think it's a viable strategy even 10 years from now without shifting to the left somewhat. Right now there are Democratic cities that are basically in full revolt against their Republican state legislators. Socially as a nation, we went from largely against gay marriage to it being legalized nationwide in a relatively short amount of time. Many people are pretty pleased with the ACA (even though it needs work).

I think a leftward shift is inevitable. Republicans will want the presidency back at some point and this whole fiasco going on with the primaries will just worsen in the future if they double down on their stances.

... But most of the #NeverTrump people support Cruz who is even worse than Trump.

Cruz calls trans women mentally ill rapists, supports people that want to murder gays, most of his friends and advisers think Obama is a Muslim. Cruz wants to massacre Muslim civilians with indiscriminate bombing, overturn gay marriage, monitor Muslim neighborhoods, deport 11 million people, build a wall along the Mexican border... Cruz praised Jesse Helms.

This is Jesse Helms:



Cruz is probably the worst famous person in America other than his father and he's the main #NeverTrump person.

Yeah I think that's just a result of a guy who won his home state of Texas (which is worth a lot of delegates) and is able to court white evangelicals. Sending out Bush and Rubio was a huge mistake by the more moderate portions of the party. Now Cruz is getting votes just because people don't want Trump...not realizing that Cruz is no better if not worse. It's a real shitshow for sure and most Republicans that I know aren't excited about any option out there. I still think that Romney would have been the most viable option but I believe he got out of the way because the prevailing thought was that Jeb was more viable.

It's just crazy because Cruz also represents the extreme right winged portions of the Republican Party. It's just unelectable in the general.
 
Politics are about perception, and thus manipulation is the most important thing about it.

Most people are ignorant, but not really ...stupid. Morals are subjective, not objective, there is no 'right and wrong' that is similarly shared across a country -- any country.

So these morals are always going to clash, and, being morals, and decisions over /rights/, they can't exactly be agreed upon. They are what make these people who they are, to compromise them means to compromise WHO THEY ARE.

It really doesn't matter if we treat them well, instead of like idiots, they're never going to change. But what we CAN do is give equal manipulation to their problems, so they t least feel something is being addressed.
 

kirblar

Member
You seem to have entirely dropped the working class angle and now the debate is about the magnitude of the shift of white voters away from the Democratic party. Also, as I noted, I don't think two decades is the time period people are talking about. The Dukakis analogy (which I think you offered in good faith in order to respond to the criticism that two decades is not the timeline people are talking about) is also bad because a lower percentage of everyone voted for Dukakis, so if there was a secular trend in either direction (or none at all as you assert) among white voters you'd expect Dukakis to be a low outlier. You'll want to look more broadly then specific presidential candidates. I'm thinking more broadly of southern realignment starting under Nixon as a reaction to civil rights... a process that continues today as state realignment finishes happening. Ten years ago, most southern legislatures were overwhelmingly democratic; today they are overwhelmingly Republican. This has happened largely because conservative [note: I believe your original argument with Mumei was pretty fast and loose with whether the debate was whites abandoning liberalism or whites abandoning the Democratic party] whites have started voting, and in many cases re-registering as, Republicans. Much of the research on this phenomenon has focused on what social psychologists call racial resentment. The most recent book of several I've read about how racial resentment has been seen in electoral cycles is Obama's Race, which look at race's impact in the 2008 primary and general election campaign.
When you look at how white people vote, the numbers are starkly different from (national) electoral outcomes. And there's not really a "nicer" takeaway.
 

Kinitari

Black Canada Mafia
While I'm in agreement with some of the stuff said in the article, I think if it's goal is to convince the people it describes to reflect, it's tone is going to ironically be ineffective - people will dismiss it outright for being self righteous and smug. Maybe that's the weird art of it.

I've talked about this for awhile and a lot of people have expressed a lot of how I feel in this thread, but one thing I'd like to add is the answer to "why" someone should bother to try and be better.

Let's ignore the research that talks about what is the most effective way to convince people of your opinion, it's important and the foundation to why I try and be empathetic and humble, but there is something else - I always want to be correct, and I want to go about it honestly.

At my core, I'm a secular humanist with a heavy emphasis on a utilitarian materialistic/deterministic understanding of morality, with a sprinkling of absurdism. What my dumb labels are trying to capture is that I always want what's best for as many people as possible, even people I disagree with, but I approach this pragmatically and without the illusion that what I'm doing is fundamentally or universally morally correct. That drives my (attempts at) humility because it means that at any given point, I could be wrong. And on top of this, understanding that if I could be wrong about what's best for as many people as possible, or even just myself, then I shouldn't begrudge people too much for doing the same thing. And even beyond that, what I idealize as "right" and "wrong" is entirely personal - I can reason about it, but my reasoning is eventually boiled down to something selfish and subjective.

In the end, with all these thoughts and ideas - a lot of them formed on GAF over the last decade of being on this forum and being challenged constantly and allowing myself to be challenged, I've found a sort of peace and optimism that really works for me. I'm not mad at people who wrong me, I ask myself why and what I can do, if anything to make it better. I don't assume anything fundamentally negative about the people I argue with, in fact I always try and assume the best possible motivation. I try hard to show everyone respect, and I fight really really hard to allow myself to be wrong, to appreciate my ignorance ad an opportunity to grow. I don't always do it, but I try.

I think that over the years I've matured into this structure, and maybe I'm wrong, but I think people generally respect me for it. They listen to what I have to say more than they used to, and they mirror back the respect I try to show them. When I am wrong, I try to admit it and I think it makes people around me feel more comfortable admitting when they're wrong too.

My ideology, my way of living is predicated upon these ideas. I don't know if it's the right way, or the best way, but it's a way I'm always trying to improve on and an ideal I'm always trying to meet. I don't know if what I'm s saying sounds like bullshit or the worst sort of navel gazing self righteousness, I really hope it doesn't. What I'm trying to say is that I think what I want is to see people respect each other more, even people who we feel do wrong, the worst kind of wrong, because that's just what I think good people do - and I want to be good.
 
you haven't been paying attention to national politics for the last 25 years then

I do disagree, I have seen liberal principles and ideas being implemented the last 25 years, even during Bush I can't think of one conservative idea made policy except some tax cuts that expired after a few years.

Liberalism has been CRUSHING conservatism in America ever since Reagan left office. Do you really disagree? And our nations problems are worse than ever.
 
I do disagree, I have seen liberal principles and ideas being implemented the last 25 years, even during Bush I can't think of one conservative idea made policy except some tax cuts that expired after a few years.

Liberalism has been CRUSHING conservatism in America ever since Reagan left office. Do you really disagree? And our nations problems are worse than ever.

I shudder to think which of Bush's policies weren't considered conservative by you.
 
The author's been commenting on twitter about his piece: https://twitter.com/emmettrensin/status/723498442325135361

I am slightly distressed that people think anti-smugness is about a "civil discourse". Or being nice.

Maybe this is more evidence liberals really can't countenance moral arguments, but when I say "take them seriously", I don't mean "be nice".

I mean take seriously the idea that you have ideological opponents who didn't become that way because they're dumb or ignorant or whatever.

Sometimes that means there's a material (and salvageable) cause and they might be winnable, but it doesn't mean "nobody is bad".

It doesn't mean "go into dialogue assuming that there's an equal chance you're wrong and they're wrong".

It's about disentangling nonsense intelligence virtue signaling from moral and material assessments of the world.
 

aeolist

Banned
I do disagree, I have seen liberal principles and ideas being implemented the last 25 years, even during Bush I can't think of one conservative idea made policy except some tax cuts that expired after a few years.

Liberalism has been CRUSHING conservatism in America ever since Reagan left office. Do you really disagree? And our nations problems are worse than ever.

so considering how republicans have had a congressional majority for most of that time and the presidency about half, why don't you blame them for not implementing policies you like? i think it's pretty obvious that the right has been far more effective at enforcing lockstep voting in their party than the left and consequently has been able to obstruct legislation they don't like in ways the democrats could only dream of.

and that's just at the national level. republicans have built a national machine that's way more advanced than democrats and have had the majority of governorships and state legislatures for years, which in many ways is more important than the federal government.
 

ApharmdX

Banned
Just like liberals trying to impose their beliefs and values about how I should live my life, and take the money I earn through the government?

Liberals try to impose their view unto others through the force of government FAR more than conservatives do.

No one is telling you how to live your life. That's a load of crap. What we're telling you is that civil rights at an institutional level (government and public businesses) are non-negotiable. Furthermore, you are entitled to your 1st amendment rights. Don't like gay marriage or blacks or Hispanic immigrants? OK, that's your prerogative. But at the same time, you are responsible for any blowback exercising those rights may create.

The left is happy to discuss conservative fiscal policy, or it should be. There's absolutely a debate on how large government should be, what role it should take in the free market, how high taxes should be, and who should pay those taxes. On social issues, which are actually civil rights issues, no.
 
Just like liberals trying to impose their beliefs and values about how I should live my life, and take the money I earn through the government?

Liberals try to impose their view unto others through the force of government FAR more than conservatives do.
How are people supposed to discuss this with you when you're framing it like this? There's no room for you to even critique yourself.
 
I shudder to think which of Bush's policies weren't considered conservative by you.

We could start with the massive spending, huge increase in the role of the federal government in education, guest worker program.

Like I said a few years of tax cuts are really all that I can think of. The administration pushing banks to give mortgages to anyone and everyone also was a big cause of the crash.

I'm not even going to attempt to defend his war/ international policy decisions, those were clearly very poor.
 

aeolist

Banned
We could start with the massive spending, huge increase in the role of the federal government in education, guest worker program.

Like I said a few years of tax cuts are really all that I can think of. The administration pushing banks to give mortgages to anyone and everyone also was a big cause of the crash.

I'm not even going to attempt to defend his war/ international policy decisions, those were clearly very poor.

ah so you're a "republicans aren't really conservatives" type.

i can agree with that to a large extent. do you vote libertarian?
 
Liberals can be super smug assholes sometimes. I know I can. We can work on out deluvery and be more patient with alternate opinions that we disagree with. In the same notion, I'm not trying to entertain an argument about trans people usimg bathrooms they identify with or how lazy minorities need to boot strap. For god sakes enough.

I'm willing to be patient but I'm not going to be socially regressive for the sake of feelings. I don't believe conservatives and specifically republicans vote against their interests because they are stupid. I think A. their interests largely diverge from liberals on social issues and many vote socially and not economically. B. A problem with people in general but especially Republicans is lack of foresight. Voting about tomororrow and not next year or next 3 years. Things like high taxes are turn offs because there is no foresight to see the long term gain over the short term detriments.

I can live with B. A is something I can handle if it isnt blatant descrimination which is what the republican party is about.

Personally I'm over fact arguing. Conservatives will mive more left socially when they get their ass kicked in the general again and again. Then econmocally there will be more room for debate.
 

140.85

Cognitive Dissonance, Distilled
...dressed up as a monopoly on reason

"Reality has a liberal bias" etc., etc.

A shocking bit of rare self-awareness here. Even more shocking that it's coming from Vox.
 

Ophelion

Member
Yeah, looking at how Obama was stonewalled by the Republican congress, I am done with "tolerance" and the idea of bipartisanship.

At a policy level, I 100% agree with this. But that's only one battlefield for the soul of America's political being. In my view, as liberals, it's ideal to stridently push for beneficial elected officials and the legislation they produce, yes, but common people who support the opposition should not be left behind. They should be treated with the respect owed all human beings. I'm not saying they should be lavished with esteem. There is a worthy middle ground between treating a political opponent like an equal and treating them like The Enemy or, worse, a tribe of base savages.

And (not directed at you in particular, Lesath) I don't want to hear any of that, "They'd do the same to us" shit. You can claim superiority or you can be superior. Wasting time denigrating the ignorant is base and petty. It's counter-productive and should be beneath us if we truly are so much more sophisticated and advanced than them. Talk is cheap. The worthiness of this cause should be proven through hard-fought legislation and through our bearing when dealing with all people. Not just the people we like.
 

Goro Majima

Kitty Genovese Member
The author's been commenting on twitter about his piece: https://twitter.com/emmettrensin/status/723498442325135361

Hmm...

I feel like I had a somewhat different conclusion after reading the article than the author did...as did many others based on where discussion in this thread has gone.

So he's basically verbosely saying that we lose all empathy for people (who would otherwise be a good fit for the Democratic platform) that deliberately and knowingly vote for Republicans through a smug attitude.

I think feeling empathy and dropping a smug attitude implies more civil discourse and not a knee jerk reaction to mock and ridicule. I'm not sure how else that can be expressed. Obviously at some point you have to say "that's just some ignorant and evil shit that you believe" when the time calls for it...but all within the context of engaged discussion.
 
ah so you're a "republicans aren't really conservatives" type.

i can agree with that to a large extent. do you vote libertarian?

I don't although I probably should. It's easy to call me part of the problem for voting for republicans. I think republicans in congress have given Obama nearly everything he has wanted. I don't see much difference between a good 80+% of republicans and democrats.
 

PulseONE

Member
I don't although I probably should. It's easy to call me part of the problem for voting for republicans. I think republicans in congress have given Obama nearly everything he has wanted. I don't see much difference between a good 80+% of republicans and democrats.

Now I'm not American, so I can't *truly* judge this, but I get the impression that alot of Republicans are a bit...behind in regards to social issues, maybe due to the fact that I'm a minority, I see that as a pretty big difference
 

Arkeband

Banned
I don't although I probably should. It's easy to call me part of the problem for voting for republicans. I think republicans in congress have given Obama nearly everything he has wanted. I don't see much difference between a good 80+% of republicans and democrats.

You are aware that their obstruction literally shut down the government and there exists a "freedom caucus" which exists solely to obstruct everything they possibly can?

The leaders of the party won't even meet to appoint his (conservative-leaning!) Supreme Court justice nominee, which would give our Supreme Court much-needed balance.
 

BajiBoxer

Banned
Now I'm not American, so I can't *truly* judge this, but I get the impression that alot of Republicans are a bit...behind in regards to social issues, maybe due to the fact that I'm a minority, I see that as a pretty big difference
I suppose from the libertarian perspective social issues are more of a tool politicians use to manipulate the electorate rather than any genuine concern one way or the other. They're probably half right. But a lot of real racists cloak their racism behind bullshit Libertarian views since the type of "freedom" Libertarians desire favors them. Right to discriminate and all that.
 

Eidan

Member
I don't although I probably should. It's easy to call me part of the problem for voting for republicans. I think republicans in congress have given Obama nearly everything he has wanted. I don't see much difference between a good 80+% of republicans and democrats.

This is remarkably, stunningly divorced from reality. I can scarcely contain my smugness in saying so.
 

PulseONE

Member
I suppose from the libertarian perspective social issues are more of a tool politicians use to manipulate the electorate rather than any genuine concern one way or the other. They're probably half right. But a lot of real racists cloak their racism behind bullshit Libertarian views since the type of "freedom" Libertarians desire favors them. Right to discriminate and all that.

Whilst I CAN see politicians using it as a tool for that purpose, sounds to me that only someone unaffected by said social issues would see it that way
 

kirblar

Member
I don't although I probably should. It's easy to call me part of the problem for voting for republicans. I think republicans in congress have given Obama nearly everything he has wanted. I don't see much difference between a good 80+% of republicans and democrats.
You're unequivocally wrong on your interpretation of the past 6 years of Obama's interactions with Congress. Almost everything Obama's done/achieved has been done via end-runs around them because they won't pass anything.

edit: Regarding racial voting trends from earlier in the thread: https://www.princeton.edu/~bartels/kansasqjps06.pdf

My analysis confirms that white voters without college degrees have
become significantly less Democratic; however, the contours of that shift bear little
resemblance to Frank’s account. First, the trend is almost entirely confined to the
South, where Democratic support was artificially inflated by the one-party system
of the Jim Crow era of legalized racial segregation. (Outside the South, support
for Democratic presidential candidates among whites without college degrees has
fallen by a total of one percentage point over the past half-century.
The Dems didn't lose "the white working class" - they lost a very specific subset of them for a very specific reason. (And this is likely because they just lost white voters as a whole in that region.)
 

aeolist

Banned
How is that a red flag? It's something you see on both the right and the left.

the idea is that the people you're arguing with don't necessarily believe the things they're saying, they're just saying them to let everyone know they're on the "right" side.

he's calling out the people who call others stupid by saying they're being deliberately disingenuous. seems hypocritical to me.
 

213372bu

Banned
It's true.

Hearing "YAAASSS QUEEN", "Berniebros need to get a job before they talk about the climate","FEEL THE BERN HILLDAWGS" etc. I immediately write that person off as being a person I can relate with and find them annoying.

I mean, only on the internet where I regularly run into these topics outside of classes, can I actually be annoyed by someone I actually agree with on issues.

I could give a shit if your "queen" "slays", and to lesser extent, if your "birdie" is a "true progressive". Instead of shilling for these candidates on the free with drive-by posts, in threads that range from social topics to gaming, why not talk about the actual topic?

GAF has been cracking down on it for the past week with a few users in particular and I'm glad.

Can't wait until this election cycle ends.
 

AndyD

aka andydumi
To be fair, the right has become so absurdly extreme that it's hard not to mock them.

I think this is quite accurate of the extreme right. But there's a ton of middle people on both sides, and I feel neither is well represented in the media. The extremes get viewership, the middle just truck along.
 

kirblar

Member
the idea is that the people you're arguing with don't necessarily believe the things they're saying, they're just saying them to let everyone know they're on the "right" side.

he's calling out the people who call others stupid by saying they're being deliberately disingenuous. seems hypocritical to me.
"Virtue-Signalling" doesn't require someone to be disingenous. It can absolutely be a thing (The GOP Senator condemning cheaters while having a mistress) but it's not a requirement- plenty of it goes on when people actually do believe the things they're saying.

What you're looking for is "how" and "why" someone's expressing condemnation/outrage/etc. - the type he's referring to w/ intelligence is when you're trying to look like the smartest person in the room and puff your chest because you're getting off on being able to claim the moral/intellectual superiority high ground. Not unique to liberals OR conservatives, happens on both sides.
 

aeolist

Banned
"Virtue-Signalling" doesn't require someone to be disingenous. It can absolutely be a thing (The GOP Senator condemning cheaters while having a mistress) but it's not a requirement- plenty of it goes on when people actually do believe the things they're saying.

What you're looking for is "how" and "why" someone's expressing condemnation/outrage/etc. - the type he's referring to w/ intelligence is when you're trying to look like the smartest person in the room and puff your chest because you're getting off on being able to claim the moral/intellectual superiority high ground. Not unique to liberals OR conservatives, happens on both sides.

i generally dislike people claiming to know the hidden motivations behind what someone else is saying. if this were a survey or sociological study i'd take it more seriously but a vox editor saying "liberals have a problem with wanting to feel superior and smarter" seems suspect to me.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
This is remarkably, stunningly divorced from reality. I can scarcely contain my smugness in saying so.

Fricken seriously. In what possible way have Republicans "given Obama almost everything he wanted"?
 

BamfMeat

Member
I don't although I probably should. It's easy to call me part of the problem for voting for republicans. I think republicans in congress have given Obama nearly everything he has wanted. I don't see much difference between a good 80+% of republicans and democrats.

Wait, what?

What, exactly, have they given him without some sort of fight? I'd like to see your idea of this.

RE:Smugness of liberals. Excuse me - I'll stop being smug when they stop being smug about "WELL THE BIBLE SAYS YOU SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO GET MARRIED!" Ms Kim Davis was CERTAINLY smug when she was refusing to issue (legal) marriage licenses to gay couples.

If I'm smug, it's because for the last 30 years of my life, the religious right has been smug to me at every turn. I am now empowered enough to be smug right back. "Turn the other cheek"? No. They gave, they made their beds, and now they're getting to lie in it.

Boo fucking hoo that the liberals are acting smug. Where was this writer when the conservatives were acting smug to the minorities? Where was he preaching to them about how they shouldn't think the opposition is stupid because they didn't believe in the bible?

If I'm smug, it's because I've earned the right to be smug.
 

Clefargle

Member
I don't although I probably should. It's easy to call me part of the problem for voting for republicans. I think republicans in congress have given Obama nearly everything he has wanted. I don't see much difference between a good 80+% of republicans and democrats.

Have you been residing in an alternate timeline or some shit?

gop_no_means_no.png


4464222264_63cfc280d9.jpg


mcc_filibusters_0512.jpg


You're just factually wrong. Oops, there I go with my smug facts again!
 

kirblar

Member

Brinbe

Member
Was ready to agree with the piece based on the title, because there's a certain truth to it in certain quarters But based on reading it and the author's reaction. It's a pile of shit. There's a lot of maddening delusion there and that's not smug to say or think.

And some of the posters in here saying how they're so 'above the fray' and how both sides are awful are probably the worst of fucking all. The smugness and pretentious exuding from their posts makes me wanna barf. Jesus fuck, get over yourselves! It's like you can't even recognize how smug YOU come across when commenting on this fucking article? Absolutely zero self-awareness.
 
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