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[ThoseDeafMutes]

The majority of GAF wouldn't know good game design if it condemned them for heresy. The amount of interesting, important gameplay decisions based around building barracks or research facilities or whatever in a game like Dawn of War is approaching zero. It's different in RTS games with stronger economic gameplay, but thankfully Adeptus Astartes don't chop wood so DOW doesn't have that.

Building stuff like defensive emplacements offers interesting gameplay decisions, of course, and Dawn of War 2 offered that. Same with choosing when to tech up to a new tier, which is essentially the only interesting decision offered by the bases in Company of Heroes. They could have made unit tiers multiple choice instead of a straight linear upgrade, that would have offered 95% of the depth without wasting time on base building.

Again, I'll wait for gameplay to see for sure, but I don't particularly care about what a bunch of casual weekend comp-stompers want out of their Dawn of War RTS gameplay. The really hardcore base-builders will presumably still spend most of their time in the literal dozens of other great RTSes which already focus on that.

Base building is fine, not having base building is fine, they are both 100% valid ways to design your rts. In the case of DoW2 it was expectations set by the first game that cause people to not be a fan of the second for the smaller scale and base building. It very much felt like a different game, and less of a sequel to the original. That doesn't make it bad ofc.

I think you're off the mark to suggest that base building doesn't or didn't offer strategic / gameplay variation.

 

[Noriym]

I approve

 

[Ragnar Blackmane]

We need a good one.

I want whoever did the Warhammer Mark of Chaos Trailer to just make a full-length 40k movie. It was all the best things in Warhammer(both universes) in 4 minutes.

You guys talk as if you've never heard of the The Lord Inquisitor. That ought to give us what we've been waiting for so long.
The 7 min prologue will release this month (and yes, the newer stuff they uploaded looks even better than the video I linked).

 

[ArjanN]

You should've been on Relicnews and DOW Sanctuaryforum, when we found out there was no base building. There was enough rage to feed the Chaos gods for eternity.

Never seen a gaming community turn poisonous so fast.

The vast majority of DOW1 players hated the change.

I appreciate Relic's attempt to innovate, but the community simply didn't ask for or want such a radical twist.

Yeah, a lot people preferred familiarity over something that was different and better,

IMO they could just make the basebuilding mostly a single-player thing. The SP and MP already played very differently in DoW2 anyway.

 

[Laieon]

I loved DoW2 - thought it was way ahead of it's time in terms of getting rid of base building etc. Strange that they're going back to a traditional RTS system; does anyone want that anymore?

Yes, yes. Oh god yes. I loooove base building.

 

[longdi]

Coh2 has base building and no base building factions. It has more varied strategies than dow2. Base building is awesome imo. More people need to play coh2, it has been well patched now, relic is strong in supporting their games and dlc

 

[Geist-]

You guys talk as if you've never heard of the The Lord Inquisitor. That ought to give us what we've been waiting for so long.
The 7 min prologue will release this month (and yes, the newer stuff they uploaded looks even better than the video I linked).

Forgot about that one. To be honest, it impressed me so much when I first looked into it that I'm kind of in a information lockdown until the full thing is released. So, I haven't really be keeping up with it since I want the full experience when I first watch it.

Still, can't wait until he's finished.

 

[Proelite]

The majority of GAF wouldn't know good game design if it condemned them for heresy. The amount of interesting, important gameplay decisions based around building barracks or research facilities or whatever in a game like Dawn of War is approaching zero. It's different in RTS games with stronger economic gameplay, but thankfully Adeptus Astartes don't chop wood so DOW doesn't have that.

Building stuff like defensive emplacements offers interesting gameplay decisions, of course, and Dawn of War 2 offered that. Same with choosing when to tech up to a new tier, which is essentially the only interesting decision offered by the bases in Company of Heroes. They could have made unit tiers multiple choice instead of a straight linear upgrade, that would have offered 95% of the depth without wasting time on base building.

Again, I'll wait for gameplay to see for sure, but I don't particularly care about what a bunch of casual weekend comp-stompers want out of their Dawn of War RTS gameplay. The really hardcore base-builders will presumably still spend most of their time in the literal dozens of other great RTSes which already focus on that.

The vast majority of competitive RTSes had base building. The vast majority of all popular RTSes have base building. Even Total War series had base building in between the battles.

It's a fact. More people prefer base building RTSes. Can't fault a company for trying to sell their games. It's not like Relic is going away from their roots. They're returning to it. Most fans demanded it. /shrug

 

[Cracklox]

This is excellent news!

Yeah, a lot people preferred familiarity over something that was different and better

Pretty much this. I bought the game not knowing anything about it when it came out other then it was a sequel to probably my favourite all time RTS. I was pretty damn disappointed initially at not being able to build bases and amass giant armies, and ended up shelving it after a few missions.

A couple of years ago, while looking for something to play, I gave it another chance, and put aside any preconceived ideas of what I thought it should be, and just tried to enjoy it for what it was. Started to really enjoy it, basically the same way I would a good loot ARPG, that happened to be set in one of my favourite fictional universes. Coincendentaly around that time there was a crazy offer on steam for all DoW 1 and 2 content for around 30 bucks or something, so I picked that up, and have put a bunch of hours in since. Still haven't tried retribution yet, but this news plus discussion, has me real tempted to fire that up soon

 

[Mrbob]

I love Dawn of War 2 but I can see why hardcore DoW1 fans dislike the game. DoW2 isn't a RTS.

I like the first Dawn of War as well so I'm ok with whatever Relic wants to do. I would be for DoW3 ending up similar to Warcraft 3. RTS with hero units.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Honestly, after DoW1 (or more specifically Dark Crusade), at first I missed base building, but I came to appreciate DoW 2 for what it was. They're very different games, but very good on their own merits.

I love Dawn of War 2 but I can see why hardcore DoW1 fans dislike the game. DoW2 isn't a RTS.

I like the first Dawn of War as well so I'm ok with whatever Relic wants to do. I would be for DoW3 ending up similar to Warcraft 3. RTS with hero units.

Eh... I'd say it is. Being smaller in scope doesn't make it not-RTS. If you want to call it real-time tactical you could, but that's not really a genre as such.

 

[Proelite]

I love Dawn of War 2 but I can see why hardcore DoW1 fans dislike the game. DoW2 isn't a RTS.

I like the first Dawn of War as well so I'm ok with whatever Relic wants to do. I would be for DoW3 ending up similar to Warcraft 3. RTS with hero units.

Of course it is. So is Total War and the modern warfare RTS series that I forgot the name of.

 

[ArcLyte]

Since we're all talking about Warhammer 40K, I'll take this opportunity and ask: how can I understand more about its Lore, battles, campaigns, history, races and all? Besides playing Dawn of War, I mean.

Read the books from the black library.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Since we're all talking about Warhammer 40K, I'll take this opportunity and ask: how can I understand more about its Lore, battles, campaigns, history, races and all? Besides playing Dawn of War, I mean.

You could go on a wiki walk, but you might be better off reading some of the novels. Horus Heresy, Ciaphas Cain, and Gaunt's Ghosts are a pretty great jumping off point for various perspectives on the 'verse.

 

[Mrbob]

I see Dawn of War 2 more of a Diablo game.

Of course I only played it in online co op so I would control 2 units at a time while my friend had the other two. Played more like an action game for me.

 

[Olengie]

Read the books from the black library.

And reading up on stuff from the Warhammer 40k Wiki and Lexicanum

 

[manfestival]

im definitely on the team that is against dow 2 gameplay and far more for dow1 gameplay. I thought dow 2 gameplay was ok but I enjoyed 1 much more

 

[K.Jack]

If DoW3 ends up the perfect balance of the first 2 games, man it's gonna be something special.

DoW2's campaigns are massively better, DoW1s online was more technical, which I preferred.

This is excellent news!

Pretty much this. I bought the game not knowing anything about it when it came out other then it was a sequel to probably my favourite all time RTS. I was pretty damn disappointed initially at not being able to build bases and amass giant armies, and ended up shelving it after a few missions.

A couple of years ago, while looking for something to play, I gave it another chance, and put aside any preconceived ideas of what I thought it should be, and just tried to enjoy it for what it was. Started to really enjoy it, basically the same way I would a good loot ARPG, that happened to be set in one of my favourite fictional universes. Coincendentaly around that time there was a crazy offer on steam for all DoW 1 and 2 content for around 30 bucks or something, so I picked that up, and have put a bunch of hours in since. Still haven't tried retribution yet, but this news plus discussion, has me real tempted to fire that up soon

I literally just finished Retribution's IG campaign a couple hours ago.

Whew that shit got real.

 

[deadscreensky]

Yeah, a lot people preferred familiarity over something that was different and better,

IMO they could just make the basebuilding mostly a single-player thing. The SP and MP already played very differently in DoW2 anyway.

I would be totally alright with that. Single-player is one area where killing time building up an area makes sense. A 20 minute 3v3 multiplayer match doesn't. (Just for the record 3v3 multiplayer is what DOW2 was designed around. That's the 'true' DOW2 experience. All my comments are generally about that, unless stated otherwise.)

It also doesn't make much sense in context of the universe. You get maybe two armies where base building makes sense, the Imperial Guard and possibly the Orks. Nearly everybody else is far more mobile than that, at least in most warfare situations.

Incidentally Relic's "roots" are Homeworld, which had no base-building.

 

[frontovik]

Looks good; I was a fan of the original Dawn of War and sorta enjoyed DoW II. I'm looking forward to more news.

 

[Sijil]

Incidentally Relic's "roots" are Homeworld, which had no base-building.

It kind of did have base building in a sense, you had to build your mobile refineries, harvesters essentially resource management and had to research a tech tree. It was simplified base building. Homeworld 2 added more with modules and shipyards.

 

[Toxi]

Read the books from the black library.

Dan Abnett and Aaron Dembski-Bowden are your pals here. They have the most consistent output of any of the Black Library authors.

 

[GungriffonEX]

YES!!!!, back to the base building, giant army mayhem of the first game.

 

[derFeef]

I see Dawn of War 2 more of a Diablo game.

Of course I only played it in online co op so I would control 2 units at a time while my friend had the other two. Played more like an action game for me.

I played it on the hardest difficulty, damn that shit was tough and almost felt like Commandos at times. Don't have the right units and levelled them? Mission will fail.

Loved that way more than the traditional RTS campaign.

 

[Zomba13]

“This is the Dawn of War that fans have been waiting for,” said Stephen MacDonald, the title’s Executive Producer. “Our biggest units ever? Check. Giant orbital lasers? Check. Base-building, epic heroes, huge battles, it’s all in there. Get ready for the biggest Dawn of War yet. For the Emperor!”

Yes please.

 

[zoukka]

Wow I did not believe the series would continue... my prayers have been answered. The best RTS series is still alive.

 

[Rip]

What do i need to play the single player of DOW 2? There is a billion DLC's. Help!

 

[SapientWolf]

My problem with base building is that it takes time away from chainsawing people in half. DoW II probably has the best looking melee combat in an RTS. In fact, I wish they went full Myth. No bases and no reinforcements. What you get is what you get.

 

[Zomba13]

Seriously though. It needs some Tau. No Tau no buy.

Spoiler

I'll buy it even without Tau

And Necron too. I love me mr space skeltal.

My problem with base building is that it takes time away from chainsawing people in half. DoW II probably has the best looking melee combat in an RTS. In fact, I wish they went full Myth. No bases and no reinforcements. What you get is what you get.

I would be fine if that was just a mode. Like, you and your opponent have a pool of points and you spend the points on your army then fight with it.

 

[JoeInky]

I would be fine if that was just a mode. Like, you and your opponent have a pool of points and you spend the points on your army then fight with it.

Just call it tabletop mode and leave it at that.


Actually I think games workshop would actively block an idea like that because it's too similar to the actual tabletop game and somehow might stop people from buying their ridiculously overpriced figures.

 

[Liljagare]

But if they want to sell, major base building and huge battles will produce sales. Dow2 style won't be a huge hit.

My favourite is still Soulstorm with the enhanced/extended mods.

 

[Csr]

So base building and heroes with abilities, something like warcraft 3 then? sounds awesome.

 

[Decado]

YES!!!!, back to the base building, giant army mayhem of the first game.

Fuck. Base building is back? Probably out then. Don't like old school rts style. Dowii style or fuck it.

 

[vakarian32]

Fuck yeah! I need more 40K in my life, I'm thinking I might replay all the DoW campaigns now.

 

[Beepos]

Base building omg thank the lords. Didn't touch DOW 2 because of that or the lack thereof.

By the screenshots seems we still got squad based combat which makes sense. Hope it follows the DOW model of reinforcement / upgrades.

 

[Evolution of Metal]

Did you ever actually play an online match? There were multiple, huge decisions to make, as far as your build order.

DoW2 had very little variation in your tech up options. Minuscule in comparison to the first game.

Lets look at those tech trees:

The only real choice that you make is whether you want the upgrade building sooner or later. There is absolutely no other choices to make in each tier. These tech trees barely branch out.

You lost a little in terms of teching, but on the grand scale DoW2 just put this base-building chore under the hood. You still had a pretty similar number of units, so it is not like you had more variety in DoW1. The end result was similar + MOBA-like heroes.

Here is how a meaningful tech tree looks (SC2):

At every tier there are branching lines. If there are no branching lines (in the case of Eldar), then you are not making any decisions.

I am not even going to dive into dedicated kingdom building games with mini-economies like AoE or Stronghold. Those games are all about the base-building and expansion, where DoW is all about tactical map movements and combat.

 

[DocSeuss]

The majority of GAF wouldn't know good game design if it condemned them for heresy. The amount of interesting, important gameplay decisions based around building barracks or research facilities or whatever in a game like Dawn of War is approaching zero. It's different in RTS games with stronger economic gameplay, but thankfully Adeptus Astartes don't chop wood so DOW doesn't have that.

Building stuff like defensive emplacements offers interesting gameplay decisions, of course, and Dawn of War 2 offered that. Same with choosing when to tech up to a new tier, which is essentially the only interesting decision offered by the bases in Company of Heroes. They could have made unit tiers multiple choice instead of a straight linear upgrade, that would have offered 95% of the depth without wasting time on base building.

Again, I'll wait for gameplay to see for sure, but I don't particularly care about what a bunch of casual weekend comp-stompers want out of their Dawn of War RTS gameplay. The really hardcore base-builders will presumably still spend most of their time in the literal dozens of other great RTSes which already focus on that.

There is nothing interesting or important about a game in which you simply blob your enemies like the Dawn of War 2 series. Constructing a working economy is way more mechanically interesting and satisfying than just moving units around a map. There's more tactical depth and stuff in Company of Heroes for sure, but Dawn of War 2 was always shallow and dull.

Also, the statement "is approaching" would imply that they once had value, and the indication that they do not now would indicate that it is designers who have forgotten good gameplay, not players. The RTS' evolution towards RTT has done it a disservice; it's nearly dead because it's only catering to the tacticsbros. We would be a lot better off if the RTS had stuck with base building.

 

[derFeef]

There is nothing interesting or important about a game in which you simply blob your enemies like the Dawn of War 2 series. Constructing a working economy is way more mechanically interesting and satisfying than just moving units around a map. There's more tactical depth and stuff in Company of Heroes for sure, but Dawn of War 2 was always shallow and dull.

When positioning, unit choosing, cover, powers matter?
That's not what I would call dull.

 

[Mechazawa]

When positioning, unit choosing, cover, powers matter?
That's not what I would call dull.

Don't be silly, there's nothing interesting about picking and counter-picking appropriate units so that you can seize objectives and resource starve your opponents by out navigating them using the appropriate cover on the terrain to take control points.

It's just blobs wiggling at each other.

 

[DocSeuss]

When positioning, unit choosing, cover, powers matter?
That's not what I would call dull.

You're describing Company of Heroes. Dawn of War 2 never had that complexity.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

CoH was so good. CoH2 is heartbreaking in how many steps it took back in additions to the ones it took forward. Recently they've been radically overhauling core mechanics of factions, finally admitting they were broken this whole time.

 

[WanderingWind]

Don't be silly, there's nothing interesting about picking and counter-picking appropriate units so that you can seize objectives and resource starve your opponents by out navigating them using the appropriate cover on the terrain to take control points.

It's just blobs wiggling at each other.

Psh, what a casual comp stomper! If you don't like what I like, you don't know good gaming! And I don't care what you think, but let me tell you why my opinion is super important!

 

[Shadowheart]

Is there gameplay video yet? Because the pics look way too colorful and clean for my taste (and for a Dawn of War game).

 

[Stahsky]

CoH was so good. CoH2 is heartbreaking in how many steps it took back in additions to the ones it took forward. Recently they've been radically overhauling core mechanics of factions, finally admitting they were broken this whole time.

Do I need the expansions and stuff to enjoy CoH2? I bought it at launch, got sad, got even more upset after realizing we may never see DoW3, then only yesterday did my crushed tears manifest into happiness once more.

Basically I'm itching for some juicy Relic stuff

 

[Cracklox]

Yeah, that's a muuuuuch better comparison point than Diablo. I dunno where that comes from, really. It's a squad tactics game.

We don't compare like, Baldur's Gate to Diablo, and that's probably closer in several ways than DoW2 is.

Hmmm. I loved the commandos games, but viewed them more like a puzzle game. Didn't spend as much time with 2, but in 1 at least, there was usually 1 very strict solution to completing missions. It really wasn't open ended at all in that regard. Unless I'm remembering wrong. It's been a while

I mentioned ARPG (not diablo specifically though) because of the randomised loot element and a big part of the game is finding and decking out your hero (s) with fully sick upgrades. Not too dissimilar a hook, from the d3s etc of the world. Of course moment to moment gameplay is far more tactical, and the way you navigate the world and access missions is a completely different thing, but it definetly uses some core systems from the ARPG genre.

Weather people want that in their 'RTS' games is a whole other thing though

- edit - goddam it. Missed my train stop banging out that post

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Do I need the expansions and stuff to enjoy CoH2? I bought it at launch, got sad, got even more upset after realizing we may never see DoW3, then only yesterday did my crushed tears manifest into happiness once more.

Basically I'm itching for some juicy Relic stuff

The factions are all fun in their own right. But it's viable to use the vanilla factions, you will be playing against expansion factions tho. Technically the strongest factions for team games are British for allies and OKW for axis which are both DLC. But there are major tweaks coming. 1v1 is reasonably well balanced except in a few matchups, but be warned, a lot of commanders are straight up non-viable in the meta.

 

[Stahsky]

bummer

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

Since we're all talking about Warhammer 40K, I'll take this opportunity and ask: how can I understand more about its Lore, battles, campaigns, history, races and all? Besides playing Dawn of War, I mean.

Choose a race/army, like Dark Angels or Necrons, and find their Codex book. There's one for every army. Awesome tomes detailing history, units, rules and special characters.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1908872268/

 

[zoukka]

lol @ the DoWII haters trying to paint the game as less strategic than DoW1. Git gud.

 

[Evolution of Metal]

No they dont, theres little to no strategic diversity in a Dow 2 match and no, focusing on the heroes as if this was a moba doesnt add any strategy at all because your guy can now jump instead of having a shield. You are focusing all that shit in one singular unit which makes you extremely predictable.

Also what kind of "strategy" you actually get from Dow 2? You only have one way of getting more units, one and only one, upgrading your base, and the only reason to not try to get it as fast as possible its because you have no way of getting units while upgrading. And the reason its stupid to not try to rank up the base as fast as posible its that you wont be able to even scratch your opponent base without heavy units and cover in the form of vehicles. When you are able to do that, then you are going to spend a long time shooting at the turrets and the base, while your opponent is unable to do shit.

Add to this the constant dancing capturing and recapturing points if you try to fight the AI and its easily one of the worse strategy games for a 1vs1 match I've played

What heroes bring? A hero choice can define your playstyle. A support/healing hero is going to power your units, an assassin hero is going to counter back-line hero or infantry. The tunnel Tyranid hero can change the way you move around the map.

What kind of game are we playing? DoW2? Yes? The game which is about strategic map movements and map domination. The victory condition is holding VPs. The game doesn't even want you to attack the enemy base, if you have 2/3 of the map = you are going to win shortly. Even in the custom annihilation game you effectively won the game if you managed to capture the entire map via overwhelming resource income.

DoW2 only allows you to kill enemy headquarters in the late game, because you shouldn't be attacking HQ in the first place.

Upping a tier on your HQ building takes time, yes, but it also takes resources. Upgrade the tier only if you don't have the immediate need for the current Tier units as soon as you have enough resources for the upgrade. You are arguing for the more complicated base-building mechanics while failing at 1 HQ mechanics.

It is the worst strategy game for you because you didn't play it optimally, you didn't understand the Heroes role and you didn't play to the victory condition.

There is nothing interesting or important about a game in which you simply blob your enemies like the Dawn of War 2 series. Constructing a working economy is way more mechanically interesting and satisfying than just moving units around a map. There's more tactical depth and stuff in Company of Heroes for sure, but Dawn of War 2 was always shallow and dull.

People blob because it is too mechanically intense to move three groups at the same time. This isn't really a tactic, it is the result of players not wanting to invest a lot of energy into micromanagement. In CoH2, you get easily punished grouping all of your units whether it is mines, artillery, MG, airstrikes or barrages.