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[Dunkley]

Not gonna say too much about my favorite FF since chances are I'd just get avatar quoted, but yeah, FF14, from the setting and story (as far as Heavensward is concerned), are exactly what makes a Final Fantasy, well, Final Fantasy, at least to me.

However I do understand where they're coming from for how much opinions there can differ. I hope FFXV can strike a fine balance between being an independant, new title, while still managing to establish itself, feeling wise, as a legitimate Final Fantasy experience.

But yeah, beats me what that is, all I know however is that it exists somehow given how they all manage to be Final Fantasy without necessarily being completely the same game.

 

[jett]

Life is really going to suck for Tabata if FFXV doesn't live up to expectations.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

Isn't this really the exact same problem the sonic franchise has post S3&K?

 

[Datschge]

Since Final Fantasy is a special team, then we are also special because we are making it.

Long development times and barely any internal effort on non-FF titles in a nutshell. Shows how genius Sakaguchi's approach of having multiple teams compete with projects that may or may not be allowed to carry the FF name really was.

 

[TDLink]

Isn't this really the exact same problem the sonic franchise has post S3&K?

Not really. That's a lot more definable as 2D vs 3D. Or more recently the games that combine both 2D and 3D elements like Colors and Generations. FF is different with each mainline entry.

 

[jimmypython]

I think he should say something like this AFTER the game is out and is actually good.

 

[Lunar15]

Zelda has this exact problem, but in slightly different ways.

 

[wmlk]

I think he should say something like this AFTER the game is out and is actually good.

This has nothing to do with it.

Tabata doesn't need affirmation to what's already 100% true.

 

[TDLink]

Long development times and barely any internal effort on non-FF titles in a nutshell. Shows how genius Sakaguchi's approach of having multiple teams compete with projects that may or may not be allowed to carry the FF name really was.

Absolutely. This is how almost annual FF happened. Square really should be encouraging that same development atmosphere now if they want to return to the days of old.

 

[DangerMouse]

Long development times and barely any internal effort on non-FF titles in a nutshell. Shows how genius Sakaguchi's approach of having multiple teams compete with projects that may or may not be allowed to carry the FF name really was.

Yeah, I think it's especially this.

 

[etking]

I will not buy the game because in my opinion a stupid action game like FFXV is no real Final Fantasy game and I honestly hope FFXVI will get a new director and go back to the roots of the series.

 

[Demoskinos]

He's not wrong. It's really one of the most frustrating aspects of the fanbase how so many people seem to view each installment being different as a plague instead of something worth appreciating. Funny how last night I found an article where the series being different in each game was in part due to Sakaguchi's distaste for sequels, but it just goes to show how any decision has its pros and cons.

That's how I view it. I like that they haven't ever done the same thing twice really with the Final Fantasy games.

 

[Aters]

It'a really a double edge sword.
I love the diversity of FF. To me that is the fundamental definition of FF.

 

[KingdomHeartsFan]

If they want to avoid one person or a few inputting their views into the series then have multiple people at SE give their opinion on the next game before it goes into full development, you have multiple talented people there you can ask SE.

 

[YankeeDonB]

I think the games being so radically different is what makes them so special, tbqh. If you want games that are just sequel clones, play the Tales series.

Agreed -- it's part of what I love about the series. In a world of over-groomed, over-predictable franchises iterating tiredly on the same polished but typically soulless core, I like that you never know what you're going to get w/ the next FF. There's some degree of continuity, but it's like a magic act.

"And for my next trick..."

Yeah, sometimes it's a dud. But they keep striving, and their have been plenty of showstoppers too.

 

[Teknoman]

At first I thought he was going to mean how S-E hasnt really done anything for consoles aside from Final Fantasy games.

 

[NinjaCoachZ]

Isn't this really the exact same problem the sonic franchise has post S3&K?

Kind of. The point is that Final Fantasy is a great series because it lets them do free reign, at the cost of somewhat fracturing the fanbase.

The Sonic fanbase almost universally agrees that the series is at its best when they take a core idea and iterate it on it to perfection (see how Sonic 1 led to the superior 2, CD, and 3&K, or how Unleashed led to the superior Colours and Generations), while the times when the creators throw what they have good out the window for no reason lead to a lot of failed experiments. For that franchise, free reign hurts the franchise more than it helps, while there are few people calling for FF to be truly iterative.

 

[brad-t]

I will not buy the game because in my opinion a stupid action game like FFXV is no real Final Fantasy game and I honestly hope FFXVI will get a new director and go back to the roots of the series.

[Final Fantasy Disease] refers to people [...] who can’t imagine anything other than their own view of Final Fantasy. [...] If that view of Final Fantasy isn’t fulfilled, then they’re convinced that it’s bad for Final Fantasy.

I don't think this has much to do with each entry being different from each other either (nor did anything Tabata said seem to indicate that).

 

[MetatronM]

I've always thought that, aside from a few defining themes and recurring concepts (which you can pick and choose from in an a la carte fashion), Final Fantasy can be pretty much anything you make of it.

 

[Koozek]

Wait, I have the feeling many here are misunderstanding his message. He's not saying that the problem is that every FF is different, actually quite the opposite: those at SE who only want FF to be what they think it HAS to be because "it's not FF otherwise" according to their own expectations are throttling the steady reinvention and modernization. Kinda what Nomura has been saying too about many on the FFVIIR team at first having been afraid of changing too much from the original:

— There’s a lot of parts that are being altered. But have there not been any opposing voices to changing things from the original?

Nomura: There certainly are some staff who put too much of a focus on the ‘VII-ness’ and are resistant to changing it. But that FFVII-ness isn’t something you can easily point to and say ‘that’s it!’ about, and it means different things for different people. I’ve got a lot of attachment to VII myself. But those “feelings” and being “trapped” by the FF of the past are two separate things. If you make up your mind, “‘FF is like this,” then you can’t make FF.

— I see. What do you think the requirements for a FF creator are, Mr. Nomura?

Nomura: I think that love for FF alone isn’t enough to make FF. Someone who isn’t satisfied with FF can make it. A creator has to be someone who wants to change FF, to surpass it. Kitase and myself, all the staff from back then rewrote FF in that way. And with this remake too, we’re naturally going into it with that same mettle. The next time we will be able to bring you info about this game will be in the winter and beyond that, but I promise that we will show you something surprising that breaks away from the concept of FF that we’ve seen so far.​

 

[Qwark]

Had it been a new IP or a Tactics Ogre game instead, they could have kept iterating on it while making something more in line with their (then) recent games for the Final Fantasy series.

XII is a good example in that it really was and should've been a Tactics Ogre game.

Tabata's doing well to continue to dissolve the idea FF is a sacred cow, if nothing more.

Just curious, why Tactics Ogre? It's not set in the same world, like it is with FFT. Is this just your idea because you think it would fit thematically, or is there some other connection with FF12 and TO that I don't know about? I couldn't find a reference to Tactics Ogre in the article and I've never heard of people connecting the two series before, but I could see them being similar thematically.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I like the fact that FF tries different things..but that's why Versus should have stayed its own spinoff as well...like SMT and Persona and Raidou for example, they all give something different to the player that the audience expects, even if they are made by the same developer.

Having different things under the exact same banner, you have people who could like only one game of the entire franchise and hate everything else about it.

 

[Lights and Waves]

Sounds like they are talking about Lightning.

They continually shoved that character down our throats like she was the best thing ever, even though most people hated her.

Except she's the most popular FF character in Japan for quite some time now.

 

[L Thammy]

Just fire everyone who doesn't prefer 6. Easy fix.

 

[Toth]

Just fire everyone who doesn't prefer 6. Easy fix.

I don't want another FF like 6. Just play 6 again if you want.

It's a beloved title but FF should continue trying something new.

 

[Koozek]

Just fire everyone who doesn't prefer 6. Easy fix.

Coincidentally Tabata's favorite FF actually is FFVI. But yeah, I agree with the post above me. FFVII is my all-time favorite, doesn't mean I want every FF to be like it.

 

[Teknoman]

As long as a turn based main series game pops up at some point again, im good. A new universe/story style/music style/ etc is fine by me.

 

[Burbeting]

Final Fantasy to me is to be a JRPG with high production values, coupled with some themes that ties the games to together (Cid and Moogles, but also the story ideas of ragtag group of people being forged into friends through hardship and adventure). Other than that, it can be pretty freely what it wants to be. I like how the series changes the setting, cast and even somewhat tone from game to game. If you dislike the previous entry, the next entry is most likely going to be at least some-what different.

 

[Ravidrath]

While I get what he's talking about, it also just sounds like a way to squelch dissent. It doesn't really sit well with me when you describe people having different opinions as a "disease."

I'm pretty sure if they'd listened to some people, anyone, anywhere, maybe FF13 and its sequels could've turned out better. A lot of people had concerns about the "sci-fi" in FF7 back in the day not being very FF, and that worked out. And I think many more people felt FF13 was too far off from their visions of FF, and that one didn't.

But if people aren't buying into his vision for this game, then he's either done a bad job of explaining it or listening to and assuaging their fears.

For example, I can almost guarantee that US and European marketing were strongly against using "Stand By Me" to sell their most important product. What better way to reach young people than with a cover of a 55-year-old song?

But Tabata and Co. pushed that through, forcing their marketing vision on the territories where the vast majority of the game's copies will be sold, rather than listening to their marketing expertise in their own countries.

I'm sure a lot of people also told them the Platinum demo was terrible, and likely wouldn't give people a positive impression of the game.


Anyway, I think Square directors tend to make games for themselves, and not for their customers. Because a vast majority of people would've been fine if the series heed close to the model set by 1-10. While taking risks is good, it'd probably be better to take gameplay risks on new IPs.

 

[brad-t]

While I get what he's talking about, it also just sounds like a way to squelch dissent. It doesn't really sit well with me when you describe people having different opinions as a "disease."

I'm pretty sure if they'd listened to some people, anyone, anywhere, maybe FF13 and its sequels could've turned out better.

Pretty sure FF13 is exactly what he's discussing as being a product of this disease. I am not sure where you're getting the idea at all that this is a method of squelching dissent. Seems like Tabata's entire job with FFXV is more about enabling individual contribution and collaboration than typical creative direction.

For example, I can almost guarantee that US and European marketing were strongly against using "Stand By Me" to sell their most important product. What better way to reach young people than with a cover of a 55-year-old song?

But Tabata and Co. pushed that through, forcing their marketing vision on the territories where the vast majority of the game's copies will be sold, rather than listening to their marketing expertise in their own countries.

Do you have a source for this or are you just inventing this based on your own feelings on the choice?

 

[Ivan 3414]

Both demos of XV feel like they have the Final Fantasy disease in them. XV is going to be destroyed if it runs anything close to either of those demos.

Definitely; controls are quite unresponsive

 

[Teknoman]

Pretty sure FF13 is exactly what he's discussing as being a product of this disease. I am not sure where you're getting the idea at all that this is a method of squelching dissent. Seems like Tabata's entire job with FFXV is more about enabling individual contribution and collaboration than typical creative direction.



Do you have a source for this or are you just inventing this based on your own feelings on the choice?

I really cant see anyone thinking that was a good choice, just like Leona Lewis and XIII. The soundtracks are always quite strong on their own. They dont really need a popular song to be used as an advertising theme.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

“Around that time, I realized that among fans as well, there are people who’ve caught FF disease,” Tabata said.

4Gamer asked what exactly Final Fantasy disease was, and Tabata replied, “It refers to people within the company who can’t imagine anything other than their own view of Final Fantasy. Since the root is a strong self-affirmation, one’s own view of Final Fantasy takes more priority than the team’s success. If that view of Final Fantasy isn’t fulfilled, then they’re convinced that it’s bad for Final Fantasy. They think, ‘Since Final Fantasy is a special team, then we are also special because we are making it. When the new Final Fantasy comes out, everybody is going to be so into it.’ But that’s not the reality of the situation, is it?”

More: http://kotaku.com/final-fantasy-dis..._source=Kotaku_Facebook&utm_medium=Socialflow

Full translated interview was posted in pieces in this thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1220472&page=6

You know what is the real disease? The Nomura disease, emo characters with fucking belts, with teenagers solving the world's problems, which never happens in real life.

 

[Koozek]

You know what is the real disease? The Nomura disease, emo characters with fucking belts, with teenagers solving the world's problems, which never happens in real life.

 

[rahuljx]

FFs have always been different and this was always appreciated atleast till the end of the PS1 era. No one could argue that the series lacked its own identity then, We may have had our favourites but we knew that each game was maintaining a high pedigree and there was a certain "FFness" which tied the games together.

However, I think after the ATB system they just havent been able to find a battle system that they can settle down with. Also the departure of Sakaguchi and Uematsu definitely affected the feel of the series.

Heres hoping they find a way to fix it.

 

[dragonzdogma]

Is FFXV the only FF to have only one playable character?

 

[Kanann]

real disease are some delusional fans and their pride to be top of jRPG or something.

anyway, get well soon SQEN.

 

[AgeEighty]

I think S-E should go the route Nintendo more or less did with New Super Mario Bros.: Have two parallel series, one that does new and groundbreaking work with the latest technology and trends, and another high quality series that scratches the itch of fans of the classic games (while still introducing variations that are cool enough to keep people interested).

I know they already to develop classic-style FF games sometimes, but those are disjointed one-offs that a lot of people tend to be unaware of.

 

[Plywood]

Some interesting tidbits from the translated posts in the other thread:

4Gamer:
Tabata-san, so far from all the interviews that you had, you always replied to the question 'What makes FF a FF' with 'To be a AAA title' right? I can clearly understand your intentions. But I feel that perhaps what fans think of what makes FF a FF to be completely different.
Tabata:
Surely that is probably the case. When it was announced that FFXV would be open-world, it invoked much criticism like 'Open-world? F*ck'n kidding me!?'. It would seem that it was something that did not match their own nostalgic perceptions of what FF was.
Harada:
Though when I heard it was open-world, I thought it was pretty grand and cool. After all, FF's selling point was about the story isn't it? A clockwork story revolving in a strong well-developed world. To go open-world would be to abandon this aspect right? Since the experience would be different depending on the players. It's my personal opinion, but I think that's something that a game so called 'JRPG' shouldn't be.
Tabata:
Ah... ... this conversation, is getting interesting (big grin).

Tabata:
First of all, I want to make this clear, that FFXV is not a 'Traditional open-world game'. The central plot that is the story is not missing, but we are using the latest open-world technologies to connect the bridges to complete the story.

Tabata:
...in regards to open-world games, I like 'Zelda Ocarina of Time'. Just by moving towards your goal, you can experience the world. This game helped me to realize that games can be made like this.
Harada:
Okay, so based on what you said, what is FF to you Tabata-san?
Tabata:
I think it's 'a constantly evolving challenger'. Like FF was born to challenge Dragon Quest in the first place right? Like 'Bring in a genuine Fantasy experience with Yoshitaka Amano-sans illustrations and modern combat designs'.

Tabata: FFXV has been in development for 3 and a half years

 

[Nirolak]

Just curious, why Tactics Ogre? It's not set in the same world, like it is with FFT. Is this just your idea because you think it would fit thematically, or is there some other connection with FF12 and TO that I don't know about? I couldn't find a reference to Tactics Ogre in the article and I've never heard of people connecting the two series before, but I could see them being similar thematically.

The example is not so much about Final Fantasy XII as it is not being sufficiently Final Fantasy in flavor, but that Square Enix threw out most of the brands their teams were working on in favor of having them make Final Fantasy games, and ended up with one discordant mega-brand that has trouble serving any of its various audiences instead of a line-up of separate IPs that each serve and build upon more specific audiences.

 

[Plywood]

And this bit makes me think that some people would get demoted or possibly fired:

Harada:
Was there no oppositions and backlash? Reforming a game like FF with much history behind it, I would be certain there would be some backlash.
Tabata:
That, there was. Not just from the team, but from other divisions too. Because, if the results come out from my method of doing things, there would be inconvenience for some other people *laughs* (Shots fired from Tabata at SE...?). But the opposition to this wasn't something that was strongly resisted. If we look at the state of Japan, you can no longer maintain the status quo anymore. If it was 10 years ago, it was obvious that you had to bow before the world. So in that sense, I consider myself very lucky.

 

[DiipuSurotu]

This reminds me of the Chrono Trigger Disease that infected the Chrono series even with only two entries.

 

[IrishNinja]

i thought FF disease might've been what square got that cause them to stop making interesting games like einhander, bushido blade, musashi, vagrant story, mana etc forever now

TWEWY is the last really exciting title they put out, for me

 

[Plywood]

i thought FF disease might've been what square got that cause them to stop making interesting games like einhander, bushido blade, musashi, vagrant story, mana etc forever now

TWEWY is the last really exciting title they put out, for me

Musashi could've been a such a strong IP, 90's square was something else.

 

[Xelinis]

Just curious, why Tactics Ogre? It's not set in the same world, like it is with FFT. Is this just your idea because you think it would fit thematically, or is there some other connection with FF12 and TO that I don't know about? I couldn't find a reference to Tactics Ogre in the article and I've never heard of people connecting the two series before, but I could see them being similar thematically.

Tactics Ogre and FFXII share much of the same core development team, including director Yasumi Matsuno.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasumi_Matsuno

 

[LizardKing]

We will see. I'm skeptical of Tabata as he hasn't ever directed anything better than mediocre.

 

[Teknoman]

You know what is the real disease? The Nomura disease, emo characters with fucking belts, with teenagers solving the world's problems, which never happens in real life.

Im not exactly a fan of Nomura's newer designs...but the majority his protagonists are never teenagers. Cloud, Aya, Lightening, Tidus... I dunno if Brave Fencer Musashi was nomura's design (I think it was?). I think Hope and the FFVIII crew were the only teens. Maybe Yuffie.

 

[Garlador]

Except she's the most popular FF character in Japan for quite some time now.

Everyone keeps saying that, when the only two polls I found in Japan were one from Famitsu right when they were covering her newest game and one on Square Enix's own forums. And even then, the poll numbers were so low that many of the characters were tied with votes.

The fact that Lightning Returns sunk in Japan and was outsold by ports of 10-year-old Final Fantasy games instead makes me feel that the infamous "Japan TOTALLY loves Lightning and thinks she's the best" argument based on those two polls might not have had the best sample size, or that the majority of Final Fantasy fans haunting Square Enix's website at that point probably weren't players who even played Final Fantasy VI or IX back in the day.


... On topic, the only "criteria" I demand from a Final Fantasy game is a good story, good world, good characters, and enjoyable gameplay. That's very subjective, but it's felt like a whammy of a console generation of insanely stupid, convoluted stories that are so pretentious and inane as to be worth nothing more than abject mockery, characters that have been often beyond insufferable, and game worlds that have felt increasingly stripped down and less explorable, with important and vital bits of lore and world-building buried in bland datalogs and in-game encyclopedias.

Final Fantasy doesn't need to be "mature" or "complex" or "deep" or "complicated". It just needs to be good and well-executed.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

While I get what he's talking about, it also just sounds like a way to squelch dissent. It doesn't really sit well with me when you describe people having different opinions as a "disease."

I'm pretty sure if they'd listened to some people, anyone, anywhere, maybe FF13 and its sequels could've turned out better. A lot of people had concerns about the "sci-fi" in FF7 back in the day not being very FF, and that worked out. And I think many more people felt FF13 was too far off from their visions of FF, and that one didn't.

But if people aren't buying into his vision for this game, then he's either done a bad job of explaining it or listening to and assuaging their fears.

For example, I can almost guarantee that US and European marketing were strongly against using "Stand By Me" to sell their most important product. What better way to reach young people than with a cover of a 55-year-old song?

But Tabata and Co. pushed that through, forcing their marketing vision on the territories where the vast majority of the game's copies will be sold, rather than listening to their marketing expertise in their own countries.

I'm sure a lot of people also told them the Platinum demo was terrible, and likely wouldn't give people a positive impression of the game.


Anyway, I think Square directors tend to make games for themselves, and not for their customers. Because a vast majority of people would've been fine if the series heed close to the model set by 1-10. While taking risks is good, it'd probably be better to take gameplay risks on new IPs.

There's a good bit of history that mainline FF games suffered from TOO many veto-empowered voices since the launching of X. Vast changes, insertions, and removals in tone, cast, and scope long after such bedrock pillars were being built upon. Add in the technical snafus and voila!

You're fearing dissention-crushing Order, but random, directionless Chaos is more apt for FF's recent history.

 

[Ravidrath]

Another thing I'd like to mention is that Square is entirely too reliant on the FF brand name.

As others have noted before, the way they experiment from game to game means that if you liked one you're probably not going to get something similar in the next game. i.e. Going from XII to XIII.

Versus XIII, BTW, wasn't even supposed to be a FF game at all but a new IP. Marketing forced Nomura to make it FF-ish to tie into their whole Fabula Nova Crystalis uberbrand, because that's what they were doing with everything at that time. Everything then had to be part of an uberbrand, i.e. World of Mana, Code Age, etc.

There's a good bit of history that mainline FF games suffered from TOO many veto-empowered voices since the launching of X. Vast changes, insertions, and removals in tone, cast, and scope long after such bedrock pillars were being built upon. Add in the technical snafus and voila!

You're fearing dissention-crushing Order, but random, directionless Chaos is more apt for FF's recent history.

Other than the stuff with XII, (which I believe has largely been debunked) when else has this happened?