Wha...
Pretty much every mainline FF game has featured Crystals or a variant of them (Materia, Spheres) as one of their main concepts and focus.
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"Final Fantasy Disease" Infected Square Enix, Says FFXV's Director
- Thread starter The Last One
- Start date
Wha...
Pretty much every mainline FF game has featured Crystals or a variant of them (Materia, Spheres) as one of their main concepts and focus.
Crystals are in every single mainline entry and are important in each universe.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
Nomura is equally deserving blame. He wasted ten years for his version of Final Fantasy. Seeing that man cast stones saying "you can't make a Final Fantasy through love alone" is hilarious considering his game was in limbo and needed to be taken over.
Nomura is just as much a failure as Toriyama, caught up in his own vision than what's good for the series.
If anyone has FF Disease it's Nomura and I even happen to like his games!
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I have to wonder if troublesome attitudes among Square staff coincide with the beginning of the PS2 generation for a reason. Japanese developers suffered steadily from increasing scope and budget of AAA games in the early 2000s. It took Square years to get FF XII finished and it ran into problems.
It seems conveniently aligned that around this time various people at Square would have begun fighting over what direction to take the series in. After moving away from the formula of the PS1 games, the next generation of software was both way more expensive and offered many possibilities that weren't practical before.
And all this happened around the time Sakaguchi began leaving. Without a strong guiding hand, I could believe everything turned into a quagmire. From my perspective it's not just that every FF game went in different directions. It's also that by the time they got to FFXIII Square seemed to be having real trouble pulling together a cohesive vision for what even the current game was. XIII comes off as stripped down and shallow, and IIRC it's confirmed that much of the game was cut due to being unusable as a result of confused development.
It seems conveniently aligned that around this time various people at Square would have begun fighting over what direction to take the series in. After moving away from the formula of the PS1 games, the next generation of software was both way more expensive and offered many possibilities that weren't practical before.
And all this happened around the time Sakaguchi began leaving. Without a strong guiding hand, I could believe everything turned into a quagmire. From my perspective it's not just that every FF game went in different directions. It's also that by the time they got to FFXIII Square seemed to be having real trouble pulling together a cohesive vision for what even the current game was. XIII comes off as stripped down and shallow, and IIRC it's confirmed that much of the game was cut due to being unusable as a result of confused development.
NinjaCoachZ
Member
A big thing is Spirits Within's failure, which being Sakaguchi's baby then led directly to his departure and the Enix merger. Really it's basically like a bunch of inconvenient things all happened right at the same time.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
What.
The Suikoden fanbase was very vocal in wanting to something more like II after III's more experimentation. V for instance is almost a rip off of II and shares far too many elements. IV dropped practically everything III set out to do. It was the anti-thesis of III and was a general response to that game. II cursed the series and now people actually think it's the only Suikoden worth playing.
But Suikoden definitely wasn't homogenous from entry to entry with few changes. III introduced the trinity sight system, skill system, buddy system, and more.
Your original premise was that Suikoden would still be alive if they experimented more. Your suggestion is errornous given III's existence and the backlash it received.
Vincent Grayson
Member
I've never met a Final Fantasy game I didn't like better than most of its contemporaries in whatever genre (JRPG for the mainline, but stuff like ARPG/SRPG in some of the spin offs).
Really the only game in the series I have no love for is FFXI, and that's due to it being one of the most inconvenient MMOs I've ever had the displeasure of playing.
Really the only game in the series I have no love for is FFXI, and that's due to it being one of the most inconvenient MMOs I've ever had the displeasure of playing.
This disease was a good thing when the games came out in a timely fashion. When games take 5-10 years to develop, it becomes more ridiculous.
Whether I'm a fan of specific games or not, I'm never going to fault Square for having games that experiment a bit and have a unique ethos with each entry. I will fault them, however, for when they let a couple of divas take over the series for a decade.
Whether I'm a fan of specific games or not, I'm never going to fault Square for having games that experiment a bit and have a unique ethos with each entry. I will fault them, however, for when they let a couple of divas take over the series for a decade.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
That FF XV demo certainly gave me a disease. Just give me a HD version of XII already, it's the only mainline series entry since IX I like anyway.
I think that man might as well soon be Naoki Yoshida.
I'm eagerly anticipating this because I want to give the game another chance. I didn't like it when it released but that was 10 years ago. They sure haven't made anything better since then.
Vaan's still a mistake.
Bingo.
Apologies for going back a few pages but would you (or someone else) mind elaborating on this? I never really read into Sakaguichi's development style or ideas when at Square and what changed after he left.
It's a disease when it clouds the judgement of staff members during the development process slowing it down and it's a disease when people write off the next game in the brand because they feel it should feature moogles and random battles for example.
I think Tabata's just realistic and was commenting on how even though FF is a strong brand it is just that a brand and that each game is in reality its own entity, even if it carries the FF name on its shoulders and even if people/staff identify with different games in the series, the brand doesn't necessarily have "a singular identity" though he does say that FF to him is "a constantly evolving challenger" which you could take to mean a host of things, all positive.
I like Matsuno's games,yet I didn't enjoy FFXII much. The beginning of the game seemed interesting but the plot later on fell pretty short.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
Maybe one day Square Enix would hire Matsuno to direct a FFXII remake with the full original script by Matsuno himself starring Basch as the lead character as intended, and the world will be a better place for it.
encephalon
Member
There was nothing stopping the game from revolving around Basch. The game revolved around Ashe, not Vaan, anyways.
Had it been a new IP or Tactics Ogre, the game would have never shipped 6.4 million units.
There's some choice quotes and links in this old thread of mine you can check out
http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=744184
here's some other stuff
http://m.ca.ign.com/articles/2015/03/04/final-fantasy-creator-hates-sequels
I think this is why I actually have a hard time getting back into Inquisition. It feels like each game just keeps moving on plot threads that have been set up since Origins, and I kinda just reached a point of not caring anymore.
In contrast, I've really liked stories that can tell the entire thing in one game recently.
Which is odd coming from the guy whose job it is to dictate what Final Fantasy is.
I'd argue it already is.
Dark_castle
Junior Member
It has to be Tetsuya Nomura actually. Yes, Yoshida is doing a great job with XIV, but the game has been out for awhile now along with its expansion, already achieved stable player base. His duty is basically largely done.
Meanwhile Nomura directs Kingdom Hearts 3 and FFVII remake, also making character designs for these games, FFXV, World of Final Fantasy AND the new Dissidia. It's insane how much Square Enix is dependant on this guy now, when they have somebody like Ito around doing jack shit.
OmegaDL50
Member
The thing is with continuous changes there is very little if any concept of maintaining a level of consistency or familiarity. I mean outside of a few notable stables such as Chocobos, Moogles, Cid, and some monsters that have been carried over from title to title, outside of this on some games in the franchise one could easily change these aspects, give it a new name and the typical RPG fan would be none the wiser it was a FF game.
With series like Dragon Quest, fans know what they are getting, the series is consistent that one could play the first game and the series and the most recent single player installment and see while there are significant improvements in the mechanics, the core that defines as Dragon Quest game is still there.
If one was to play the very first FF game in the series and then play the most recent single player mainline installment, there is very little elements that are retained if any at all.
It's fine for a series of improve and progress over time. However the problem with constantly trying to reinvent the wheel and make something drastically different than the previous game is over time you lose the familiarity and core concepts start to become something unrecognizable.
With the FF series you are never guaranteed what you get and because of huge overarching changes from setting, gameplay mechanics, and even to the point of a genre shift from turn based RPG to a hybrid semi-real time to full real time to even action. It can be said that nothing is truly sacred when it comes to the FF series.
Sometimes change for the sake of change isn't necessary, retreading an old concept that works well and refining it can work well too.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Wait when did he do that?
Eh... I don't think they necessarily jettison'd Tatics Ogre to slap the Final Fantasy name on everything. They only did it with "12" because Tatics Ogre wasn't selling as much as the Final Fantasy name. That and Matsuno was using Ivalice again.
The major problem is, outside of Final Fantasy, most of Square's output has been very niche. Major sellers in some (Kingdom Hearts), but niche for a lot of others (the Bouncer, Tactics Ogre, Valkeria Profile, etc...). So them test-bedding ideas in Final Fantasy isn't necessarily bad especially if you've played most games in the "series" but it does as you say, become a problem when folks that enjoyed those subsystems they created in something like 12 ask for a sequel and then get something completely different from it (FF10-2, FF12-2/RW, FF13-3)
Sheriff_Battlesnake
Banned
Identifying the problem is the first step to fixing it. I wish they'd take a look at Persona and see that they can still be a JRPG. Not everything needs to be westernized. But maybe this one will turn out better than I hope.
Hey! If anyone still hasn't read the article, the fan who translated it posted it here all on one page: https://forum.finalfantasyxv.com/di...e-tabata-ffxv-translation-compiliation#latest
If the original poster wants to put the link in the main post, that would be cool
If the original poster wants to put the link in the main post, that would be cool
It's clear that Tabata sees his role more about enabling Final Fantasy to take shape with strong team collaboration, rather than dictating it by fiat.
Huh? Gears was a failed story pitch for FF, but it was never a full fledged game before it. That's the only story that comes remotely close from what I've read, and even that's a stretch.
Chocobo, Moogles, Biggs, Wedge, Cid.
Other than the mechanical side of things (Spell names, summons, that sort of thing), those are the only heavily consistent components that spring to mind.
"Tabata:
For example, there was much criticism regarding FFXIII on the net. But within the company, there was absolutely no one who shared their own critical opinions to the development. That's how Square Enix has been operated since the past. There was a stance where one could not slander the development with critical opinions. Of course this creates sense of an abnormal self affirmance. This is another bad trait carried over from the era.
4Gamer:
That is... ... but however, what about thinking in a way that negative feedback is best left unchecked? Since this is a very rigorous job for those who are weak to criticism.
Tabata:
No matter who it is, everyone is salty when they are criticized. But for developers, it is essential to take in feedback, whether that is positive or negative. On top of that, you are not suppose to personally process the criticism emotionally, but process the 'importance' of the criticism, so you can learn from your mistakes and make better use of it next time.
Harada:
I see, so the FF virus really exists."
royox
Member
For me it was Command/Menu based battles.
Every main line FF game has battles based on commands and menus. Some are pure turns, some have ATB, some are more real time paced like XII but the "menu thing" was always constant.
And then, FFXV happened. "Hold X to awesome, press square to awesome-dodge, keep holding X to axesome".
That's the trade off, right?
New IPs generally start slower and have to build up over time, but they're able to become distinct product lines.
Imagine if Far Cry and Watch Dogs were just annual entries in Assassin's Creed instead. That's be a lot less money for Ubisoft overall.
You can hold X in FFVII and all your characters will attack as soon as their turns come up. This will let you win the majority of random battles in the game unless you've been running away a lot. Sure, you can use magic, summons and other abilities... But you can also do that in XV. Selecting party member abilities is essentially like selecting from a menu... and in order to select those abilities for other party members you have to wait for a bar to fill up. There are still similarities that make it feel FF-like.
Yes, this is so much different than "select command from menu to awesome."
What's interesting about FFXV's combat system is that it is still essentially command-oriented, which is probably why those expecting it to feel more like Kingdom Hearts or other action games find it disappointing.
Holding a button to attack and selecting "Attack" from a command menu are both still abstractions of actual combat. And adjusting your abilities by pressing different joystick directions is not a world apart from selecting an ability from a menu. It's a bit more demanding of a player's real-time engagement than a typical menu-based system, for sure. You're selecting commands in real time, but it's not a technical action game in the way something like DMC or even Kingdom Hearts is.
I don't mean to say that people shouldn't prefer turn-based or command-oriented combat if they want to; I'm looking forward to XV after playing older Final Fantasies and realizing I'd like something that's more fluid and realtime, but I understand that not everyone is.
But these complaints are really reductive, and premature considering the fact that the combat system in its current incarnation can basically only experienced without a party against one rather slow enemy.
The Last One
Member
Thanks, will do that.
Gears? I know you're not talking about Gears of War, but what game/pitch are you talking about?
Oh, duh, thanks. I completely blanked there.
Xenogears.
royox
Member
You are just using semantics. You know what I was talking about when I was talking about "holding X to attack".
I played both demos and both demos felt like "I wanna be an ARPG but NOPE!". It feels like they didn't knew what to do with the gameplay and just left it halfways of being an ARPG but withouth the command/orders thing.
Barrel Cannon
Member
Takes a lot for a Dev to come out and say that. I got a lot of respect for that
I think I'd take this instead, at least I'll use a different move. Unlike FFXIII, just mash X and they'll finish the battle for you.
I get what you're saying and it's fine to prefer ATB or turn-based. But I just wouldn't say that the system in XV makes it less of a Final Fantasy game or something. I've played both demos as well but we still haven't played the final battle system with all party members and all the features that will be included. We probably don't even know the extent of all those features yet.
To me it feels like FFXV is doing it's own thing with the battle system. It's not a direct ripoff of any other game or really any other genre. They have created something new for people to learn and master. Each installment creates a new battle system even if they just make minor changes to previous systems. This is one of the things that makes FF FF to me.
It's imo the strength of the series. If you don't like an entry, you can wait for the next and maybe you will like this one. Let you suprise by each entry
.I also believe that the brand (for the main titles) is an indication for high production value (regardless if you like the game/the new system or not)
Had that they done that, FFXII wouldn't have received the budget, time or attention it did. SE wouldnt have bothered with sending in a new director to fix it. The FFXII we know today wouldn't exist in its current form. It needed to be a mainline Final Fantasy.