I hope that XVI development (if they're making it of course) goes smoothly with the ideas and influence that Tabata and other members have talked about. While I'm excited for XV, it's still a project they took over, so seeing them build a new mainline FF from the beginning with their ideas of what FF should be would be nice. XV can be thought of as moving in the right direction I guess, even if it turns out not so good.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
"Final Fantasy Disease" Infected Square Enix, Says FFXV's Director
- Thread starter The Last One
- Start date
TDLink
Member
I don't know that I entirely agree with this. Their FF output in the 90s was much higher than now. Granted, so was their non-FF output. But they have upcoming and recent non-FF projects like Kingdom Hearts 3, I Am Setsuna, Star Ocean 5, Bravely Second, and Nier 2. Plus of course they fund and publish all the Eidos stuff like Deus Ex and Tomb Raider. And are publishing Overwatch in Japan. In the Wada days I'd say they published more non-FF games than FF games...at least in terms of new titles that weren't remakes or ports.
Final Fantasy used to just guarantee that it was a turn based battle system, typically ATB, and a long enjoyable traditional style RPG. Even 12 and 13 were those things, even if they changed it up a bit. The MMOs sort of diluted it and now FF15 is a straight action game. So that's potentially problematic for that former brand identity, but it doesn't really seem like people want big budget turn based RPGs anymore anyways. Unfortunately.
I think their FF output was much higher then in large part because they weren't constantly trying to reinvent the wheel, both from technical and design standpoints. They had a formula that worked, and they produced three very successful games with lasting appeal.
While the asset needs of current gen would've slowed things down, just having a sort of starting place would've greatly sped up development, instead of spending millions on new engines that didn't really work. Because ultimately I don't think most FF fans care about them being bold with each entry, etc. Or you can constrain that boldness within certain gameplay constraints so that the games feel different enough while still having some core fundamentals.
XII was the first that went off the rails, in this regard, and it paved the way for everything after it - turning away from the idea of "core fundamentals."
I mean, FFXI was hugely successful, but with XIV 1.0 they decided they had to completely reinvent everything. Even the basic things that worked well in XI, like the party invitation systems, etc. were thrown out. And we saw how that worked out.
So as far as the FF brand is concerned, I think their risk-taking is a big part of the reason they've been so slow and the brand is so weak. Like, XIII wouldn't have been such a huge blow to the series if they'd had the next SP entry out two years later. But the next entry was the hugest, most ambitious thing ever and they were way out of their depth, so it's been 10.
It doesn't really specify (unless I skipped over it) whether Tabata was referring to his own team or other teams at Square or other directors. To me, it seemed rather vague.
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
.
Cindi Mayweather
Member
This is why each new game is different and there feels like there's no shared vision for the franchise. Tabata is on the mark.
FF just tends to alienate. Just because you like the past game doesn't mean a thing. More than that, barely anything is iterated so there feels like there's no longer any franchise wide progression or improvement. Why keep playing them if the entry you like will be forever ignored, no matter what contributions and evolution of brought to the series? What's going to happen if FF16 is turn based after 15 is an action rpg.
FF keeps digging itself into a hole and what the designers seem to be FF rather than keeping a static set of rules that define what an FF should be. And that's how you get things like "HD towns are hard."
FF just tends to alienate. Just because you like the past game doesn't mean a thing. More than that, barely anything is iterated so there feels like there's no longer any franchise wide progression or improvement. Why keep playing them if the entry you like will be forever ignored, no matter what contributions and evolution of brought to the series? What's going to happen if FF16 is turn based after 15 is an action rpg.
FF keeps digging itself into a hole and what the designers seem to be FF rather than keeping a static set of rules that define what an FF should be. And that's how you get things like "HD towns are hard."
Cindi Mayweather
Member
The thing about Tabata's messaging is this isn't rote Player Bribery. He's not buying us off but assuring something bad ISNT happening. "How" not "what", as it were. It's refreshing.
Never forget. Never ever ever EVER forget.
TBQH, I figure that's what's kept that series alive and not ending up like Wild Arms and Suikoden and what have you.
Nah Sateliite. Remember Suikoden III and how people backlashed because it wasn't II? Suikoden didn't have this problem until it did experiment.
The premise isn't exactly true either. Cursory look at the listings of games via Wikipedia:
Games with FF in the title 1990-2000: approx. 20
Games with FF in the title 2001-2010: approx. 44 + 6 mobile titles
Games with FF in the titel 2011-2016: approx. 15 + 39 mobile titles
Certainly more experiments recently on mobile, bolstered by many mobile rereleases. The shift to having less console or numbered titles releasing (including direct sequels) for the first time is less:
Numbered FF first releases in 1990-2000: 7
Numbered FF first releases in 2001-2010: 6
Numbered FF first releases in 2011-2016: 5
The 90s benefited from a couple of SNES and an NES release. The 2000s played fairly comparable. The 2010s dipped into more direct numbered sequels than before, but certainly befitting the AAA quality level inherent in the numbered series, and that's ignoring AAA games that weren't given a numbered entry.
But that goes back to my earlier point. Output for the series is gargantuan, appealing to tons of different games styles, platforms, remixes, remasters, sequels, episodic, expansions, experiments etc. It's such a massive offering that there really is something for almost everyone. Granted there isn't a general consistency in all that's there.
But I kinda feel like the output across the 90s was widely different, and jumped a couple platforms (NES/SNES to PlayStation, 2D to 3D, TB to ATB, Pure-fantasy to SciFi, Cartoonish to Realistic and back).
Personally I do want this, but that's me and anecdotal.
I think the consideration when planning XIII was that XIII-2 was the next SP entry.
Tabata, IMO is both right and wrong. It's possibly a disease to think that FF will succeed if only it is shaped by the crippling ideals of a few long-term thought processes, but likewise won't win simply by innovating either. There are very few things the series has guaranteed for a very long time--which is only easier to think when we think upon our favorite entries as not too long ago or say things like few games have come out between then and now.
Personally though, I would never want them to just 'stick to what they know'. I love the concept of this series, above most, as being the one to 'try something new'.
KyanMehwulfe
Member
The points about XII are pretty apt because I think it's sometimes lost that it was actually received by a fair bit of negativity, not unlike MGS V, for not being 'FF' enough.
As people returned to the game, or gave it a second chance with different expectations (or a lack thereof), it's slowly won over more fans on its own merits. Merits that were of course always there as it had its own cult following from the beginning, namely the obvious Matsuno fans. And I think MGS V is not a perfect parallel because it's arguably even more divisive. But they're both interesting examples of that sort of alluded disease, and what each person expects and believe a FF should be.
As people returned to the game, or gave it a second chance with different expectations (or a lack thereof), it's slowly won over more fans on its own merits. Merits that were of course always there as it had its own cult following from the beginning, namely the obvious Matsuno fans. And I think MGS V is not a perfect parallel because it's arguably even more divisive. But they're both interesting examples of that sort of alluded disease, and what each person expects and believe a FF should be.
ProfessorMoran
Member
What about FF8?
FFXV just kind of feels like Nomura is trying for a repeat of Squall version 2.
NoctisVsStar
Member
Tabata wont dare to go at Lord Nomura like that, Toriyama is the one to blame.
I'm pretty sure he's not talking about the differences of each Final Fantasy or how that's a bad thing. He's referring to the leadership of previous FFs (I'm assuming it's mainly about the HD era with Toriyama at the helm), how one man's vision takes priority over anyone else's input or opinion. So you have all of the development team who's only able to create the game exactly as what this one man thinks Final Fantasy is, while the whole development team probably have their own gameplay or thematic ideas of what makes FF a Final Fantasy; even if they're good ideas they just won't get noticed.
He's mentioned something similar before.
Tabata's mentioned his greatest influence on FF is from working with Kitase and Nomura.
He's mentioned something similar before.
Tabata: "We reset the hierarchy of the organization, because the person that serves as the section leader would be in the same position for decades, at times. When that happens, it’s a given that the power relations between staff will always be decided, you’ll have imitation of originals, and instead of having winning conditions as a team everyone ends up working to follow the personal standards of subjectivity and feelings of this said person. By resetting such unnecessary relations, we had a talk about “from here on, there is no top or bottom in this land of Shura”
Tabata's mentioned his greatest influence on FF is from working with Kitase and Nomura.
Nomura actually said something similar in an FFVIIR interview where some original VII staffs are resistant to change certain aspects of VII. (Read Koozek's post in the previous page).
So no. It's not directed at Nomura.
Nah, Tabata is on pretty good terms with Nomura since he gave him the chance with CC and has been an inspiration too him plus he looks forward too what N will do on the remake.
Technologically and stylistically, yes.
But the gameplay still had a common core up through FFX, and it was the stories, presentation and ancillary gameplay systems that they innovated on and surprised players with.
I mean even with that common core, there is still a great variety, and also a great deal of debate about which FF games are the best.
But just production-wise, they knew regardless of what story they told, what style the art would be in, how the progression systems worked, etc. that the gameplay was this fairly static thing. And because of that, they were able to focus on making all of those other elements special.
With the way they want to innovate graphically, with how the world is built, etc. now, they have no starting point, not assumptions to build off of. Everything is up in the air, and combined with their over-reliance on graphics, ends up creating far more preproduction work before they actually get to prototype any gameplay.
Yes, but this was only the case because they knew Versus XIII wasn't going to be finished any time soon.
Based on the budgets for the FFXIII sequels, and the fact that there are two of them, and they don't really have anything to do with the first game's story, I think they were intended as schedule-fillers. They were literally the only way to get any kind of mainline-ish FF games into production and released in a reasonable timeframe.
And, well, they may as well try to get some more use of the engine they wasted all that money on.
The Last One
Member
Noctis is not like Squall, way different characters.
The only thing FF8 shares with FF15 really is the modern and Fantasy art-style, draw like mechanic and gas.
The rather easy solution to this problem is to basically make each Final Fantasy entry the start of a new IP opportunity.
FFXII could have been what jumpstarted an "Ivalice" series, albeit probably with a reduced budget by comparison to a proper numbered FF game, but something that keeps those fans happy, keeps them buying games, until such a point that it stops making money and can be retired.
Some of FF's spinoffs already did this, but buggered it up by insisting that the wheel even be reinvented there with each instalment, as well.
There's an opportunity here that Square Enix just isn't properly capitalizing on. There's been faint suggestion that this is the direction they wanted to go in, but failed to by putting the Final Fantasy brand on some of those attempts for the sake of uniformity.
And this suggestion would divorces FF from the need to have an underlying "core principle" and rebrands the franchise as the place for prototyping new IPs but in a AAA-budget environment under a familiar brand that will ensure a certain measure of sales success.
Jangowuzhere
Banned
This is why they should have started multiple new franchises at this point instead of making fifteen Final Fantasy titles.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
Not debunked, (its mostly he said-she said stuff) but there's been these odd quotes from current SE head honchos that bring up closing projects out (Kawazu's read between the lines interviews on XII), choice in protagonists should be influenced by targeted demographics (white mage Vaan getting lead role job after early info about Basch), and adding in large focus changes late in development (airships/various Eidos help in XV) and now this just keeps aiming at this "herding cats" issues with focus (along with HD teamsize, leadershit failure, etc).
This is the big reason I put Square Scuttlebutt so high up on my list of gaming wishes instead of Sequel To Beloved Classic, it helps me know what I'm right on or not.
What.
birthbysleep
Member
So many Tabata interviews yet no one thinks to ask about what happened with Nomura or how Nomura feels about the current state of XV
NinjaCoachZ
Member
Square Enix HAS multiple franchises though?
????????????????????????????????????????
I have nothing to back it up but my gut feels like he was pulled off so he could work on the FFVII remake.
NoctisVsStar
Member
Ehh that's never going to happen. Nomura moved on to SE biggest project and Tabata did what he could with the project, condensed the world of the versus epic into one game, one film and anime instead of sequels.
There's not much to say.. I mean Nomura wasn't even mentioned at the uncovered event. In all likelihood Nomura hates that his vision got butchered.
They probably ask but turn it down or say don't ask these questions.
Why ask about Nomura he wasn't been on the project for atleast 2 years now. We had threads going on about Tabta talking about the past and shit and people were tired of that here.
Nomura outside of trailers knows as much about 15 as Tabata does about 7 last we heard.
I imagine Nomura just wants to move on from V13 and focus on 7 and Tabata would rather talk about his vision then talk about one that not gonna happen.
I doubt Yasumi Matsuno wants to talk about 12 and what happened.
Empyrean Heaven
Member
I completely agree. I also point the blame squarely (pun not intended) at one man.
Tetsuya Nomura.
Once FFVII came out and made the series a mainstream franchise, people refused to accept anything else from the company. Hence why VIII and X were both beloved, but IX and XII (both objectively better games) were treated like red-headed step children. Hell, to this day I know people who refuse to play Final Fantasies before VII, because Nomura's art ruined them for every other game.
Tetsuya Nomura.
Once FFVII came out and made the series a mainstream franchise, people refused to accept anything else from the company. Hence why VIII and X were both beloved, but IX and XII (both objectively better games) were treated like red-headed step children. Hell, to this day I know people who refuse to play Final Fantasies before VII, because Nomura's art ruined them for every other game.
NoctisVsStar
Member
That makes no sense Nomura did the monster designs for 6
Perhaps. There's been a lot of conjecture about that situation.
In any case, he's a grown up. He's moved onto something bigger.
Empyrean Heaven
Member
Who cares about monsters when you have SPIKY HAIR BIG SWORDS CHAINS BELTS COSUPRAY DESU DESU.
MikeE21286
Member
You have to go back to the drawing board almost every time. Which is why the games take so long to come out.
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
Saying XII is objectively better is completely false, it's purely subjective. I for one found it OK, but I didn't love it compared to X. It was mid-range FF to me. And if you want purely subjective, I enjoyed XIII over XII.
And blaming Nomura is a weak-ass argument. He did the artwork of FF since VII (hell even VI) and he hasn't directed any mainline FF game except for the upcoming FFVII remake.
Nomura worked his own projects and designed characters when asked to. He's the one who's suggested remaking pre-VII games.
If I recall correctly, it was Toriyama who got carried away with the idea that Nomura's art style should be the default for the series.
NoctisVsStar
Member
The most important man at SE regardless.
He got moved to KH3 by a company decision & Tabata is the director of the game in it's current state. He isn't needed to make a interview for the game.
At best maybe expect a statement in the Ultimania.
ULTROS!
People seem to like me because I am polite and I am rarely late. I like to eat ice cream and I really enjoy a nice pair of slacks.
As much as I don't like Toriyama, it's more like his vision of FF doesn't match up with a lot people's vision of FF. It will match some people's, but it didn't match a lot of people's expectations.
It's also really hard to make a new IP good the first time with 2016's expectations.
They're most likely going to deliver high 70 to low 80 Metacritic score games indefinitely with their development model despite this huge cost and development timelines for every game.
It's not like they're making linear shooters that build upon past games or smaller scale multiplayer titles that still take 3+ years to nail. They're trying to make $100+ million open world RPGs which have huge expectations about the amount and variety of content and those expectations are changing upward very quickly.
See, right there, was the reason there probably was a dispute between Tabata and Nomura, that caused the Tabata comment (in the OP interview) which I thought was directed towards Nomura.
But this.....
....made it seem otherwise, though......
Just to comment further, Tabata should also be cautious when calling anything a 'disease'. With a fanbase this large and diverse, it's an easy term for anyone (i.e. rabid fanboys) to pile on FFs and FF fans they don't agree with. It also lets fans feel 'validated' in their opinions over others as if Tabata was somehow referring to specific titles they dislike despite not naming any.
Just look at someone already interpreting Tabata as talking about Lightning >.>
Just look at someone already interpreting Tabata as talking about Lightning >.>
NoctisVsStar
Member
Im pretty sure a dispute never happened, the thing is Nomura got replaced and Tabata was ordered to deliver XV (originally it was meant to have sequels but no more). Tabata did what he had to do.. It's nothing personal what I meant was Versus was Nomura's baby and he likely hates deep down what happened to it ( that's out of his control ) besides Nomura and Tabata worked on Crisis Core so there's no bad blood or anything.
BasilZero
Member
Seems to explain why and how each FF game is almost completely different from each iteration.
But honestly it doesnt bother me - I've enjoyed each new release lately and dont really think its bad that someone has an opinion on how the series/next game should be like though.
Strange that they would call it a disease.
But honestly it doesnt bother me - I've enjoyed each new release lately and dont really think its bad that someone has an opinion on how the series/next game should be like though.
Strange that they would call it a disease.
LouisaFerre
Member
Right, Nomura and Tabata have been working together for a long time. With the former being credited as Creative Producer on pretty much every game directed by the latter. Nomura probably feels bitterness towards SE upper management because of what happened but I highly doubt that the conflict is between him and Tabata. He was the one who had him brought on as co-director, so he probably would rather have Tabata finishing the project over anyone else currently at the company.
Also, I don't really know what Tabata means in the sense that it infected SE. I understand the frustration with a lot of fans who end up having a very rigid set of expectations from the series, but I don't really feel like this sort of arrogance on the part of developers was all that significant in the series' decline. The drop in quality for XIII and XIV 1.0 was more due to technical issues, not giving games the resources they needed, or just not very good writing than anything else, IMO. Also, as stated before, they do rely too much on the FF branding to sell games to the point where it detracts from the identity of the series.
EDIT: Ahh, rereading, it seems like it's less about the series decline and more about just the attitude his team members had while developing the game, pretty understandable. He seems like a real ass dude. The pretty interesting comment to me was the one about how if his way ended up working, circumstances would worsen for certain people. That actually sounded pretty ominous, lol.
I think Nomura knows that FFXV was too much for him to handle. Even back then when it's called vsXIII he got troubles getting off the ground due to his other projects,engine troubles, FFXIII and XIV sucking up resources from him. Then it got changed to FFXV which adds pressure, he did vsXIII in the first place was due to the fact it wasn't a mainline title initially so not much pressure and expectations.I feel in the end Nomura got tired of it, Tabata knows that so I think that comment wasn't aimed at him.
YankeeDonB
Member
While you clearly highlight the challenges and risks of their approach, it's not like endless iteration is a guarantee of critical success either. Is Fallout 4 better than 3? Assassins Creed Unity better than Black Flag? Uncharted 3 better than 2? Skyrim better than Morrowwind? Mass Effect 3 better than 1? Resident Evil 6 better than 4? Dark Souls 3 better than 1? Bioshock Infinite better than Bioshock? Etc etc. Now, endless iteration may be a relatively safe financial bet for modern AAA titles, but I for one am tired of rehash.
Wish more developers had the balls (or Quixotic idiocy) to keep throwing away what's worked and build anew.
I'll take a ballsy game with heart over a play-it-safe, paint-by-numbers, made to offend no one title any day, wholly irrespective of what their Metacritic score ends up being.
Unknown Soldier
Member
What's interesting about Final Fantasy always being a different thing every entry in the series is the focus on maintaining superficial links between the games with trivial inserted elements. Every FF title has to have chocobos, airships, moogles, a person named Cid, people who fight with swords that defeat people using guns, and recently there's been an obsession with crystals. Everything has to have crystals. Crystals errywhere even when it doesn't make sense!
Melchiah
Member
That's basically me. Loved VII, VIII, and X, skipped XII and MMOs, disliked IX and XIII, and haven't played the series since. XV isn't really making me want to return with its cast.
Lights and Waves
Member
Recent obsession with crystals...? The first FF game, and half of all the games are about crystals. It's been a cornerstone of the series since the 80s.