Miyamoto isn't breathing down his neck. Aonuma giving the middle finger to the Gamepad is evidence to this.
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Aonuma on BotW: "it's OK if there's pocket of emptiness" "Getting lost is fun."
- Thread starter BY2K
- Start date
Miyamoto isn't breathing down his neck. Aonuma giving the middle finger to the Gamepad is evidence to this.
BodiesWithoutOrgans
Member
No getting lost is not fun it's frustrating
Magic Mushroom
Member
I totally agree. Most open worlds are way too crowded. Too much noise.
Danny Dudekisser
I paid good money for this Dynex!
Frankly, I think they're just (validly) concerned about Zelda ending up like a Bethesda RPG.
There's a middle ground between what Zelda already does and a game where there's a huge open world with nothing to do. I hope this finds that balance.
Herbspiceguy
Member
I'm not arguing that exploration in itself isn't rewarding. I just want to see awesome, hidden, cryptic secrets in empty spaces as well. But I'm sure we'll have those anyways.
DOWN
Banned
Exactly what I advocate.
I had that concern, then I watched the footage. Of course, the rest of the world can be nothing like it, but so far, it really doesn't seem like it'll be anything like a Bethesda RPG.
Finding something meaningful after exploring a "pocket of emptiness" is one of the most satisfying parts of open world games, in my opinion.
If there's something to find or do in every square inch of the world, it lessens the sense of discovery. To me at least.
That said, it does need to strike a proper balance between the two.
If there's something to find or do in every square inch of the world, it lessens the sense of discovery. To me at least.
That said, it does need to strike a proper balance between the two.
Really to me it's about there being too much filler in most open world games.
Skyrim is very 'dense' but after a little while you realize there are only a couple of variations on the dungeons and they start to get really, really boring. If they cut the dungeons by 40-50% but made them all more unique it would have been such a masterpiece. A little bit of 'emptiness' is actually needed in open world games to create that urge to explore.. I want to see things in the distance and figure out how to get there.. in games like Skyrim/Fallout it gets a bit ridiculous at times because you can't walk 2 minutes without finding the entrance to a cut-and-pasted dungeon. It really reduces the sense of discovery and exploration.
I am concerned that this game ends up with wind waker levels of map emptiness..
loved the sea idea - hated that there was hardly anything to do in it
I am not expecting every square inch of map to have something engaging for the player.. but also dont want it to be the total opposite as it was in Wind Waker
loved the sea idea - hated that there was hardly anything to do in it
I am not expecting every square inch of map to have something engaging for the player.. but also dont want it to be the total opposite as it was in Wind Waker
Sounds great.
Emptiness isn't the problem in open world games (I mean it is if there's a lot of it, anyway. It's engagement. Be that a lack of engagement through not clear objectives or desire to explore, disengagement from the churn and burn of filler content, or from being in the state of "just travelling" from point a to point b. BotW seems engaging all the damn time.
Emptiness isn't the problem in open world games (I mean it is if there's a lot of it, anyway. It's engagement. Be that a lack of engagement through not clear objectives or desire to explore, disengagement from the churn and burn of filler content, or from being in the state of "just travelling" from point a to point b. BotW seems engaging all the damn time.
I think that has more to do with Nintendo as a whole have already acknowledged that the Wii U is done and there is no more need to push gamepad features into games. Also the NX's defining feature(s) may not revolve around a second screen input but something else entirely different
D
Deleted member 752119
Unconfirmed Member
I think a lot of it comes down to gaming time. People who are strapped for time to game have less patience for wandering around and exploring open worlds as they just want to get on with the quest.
I'm kind of their and prefer games where I'm mostly constantly in meaninful gameplay and/or story delivery. I'm not big on exploring virtual worlds. So I'm skeptical of this, especially as I'm even less interested in exploring stylized worlds than realistic ones.
Zelda games are all about the dungeons for me so I'm worried I won't like this as much as others.
GravityMan
Member
I'm glad Aonuma understands this. Hopefully other devs pay attention.
- Some open-world games have TOO MUCH content and are too dense. That's a big reason why some players find them overwhelming.
- Some open-world games are too static. The empty space is not just empty...it's also bland, uninteractive and amounts to nothing more than time-wasting filler. More devs should realize that it is possible for even a pocket of emptiness and/or a barren pocket of land to still be engaging to the player (moment-to-moment gameplay).
- Some open-world games don't vary their landscapes and interiors enough. And some don't have enough verticality.
In Zelda: BotW, it looks like the world itself is highly engaging, interactive and immersive, both in the pockets of emptiness and in the areas with more life.
Getting lost is fun if the world is interesting. Getting lost is annoying and boring if the world is uninteresting.
- Some open-world games have TOO MUCH content and are too dense. That's a big reason why some players find them overwhelming.
- Some open-world games are too static. The empty space is not just empty...it's also bland, uninteractive and amounts to nothing more than time-wasting filler. More devs should realize that it is possible for even a pocket of emptiness and/or a barren pocket of land to still be engaging to the player (moment-to-moment gameplay).
- Some open-world games don't vary their landscapes and interiors enough. And some don't have enough verticality.
In Zelda: BotW, it looks like the world itself is highly engaging, interactive and immersive, both in the pockets of emptiness and in the areas with more life.
Getting lost is fun if the world is interesting. Getting lost is annoying and boring if the world is uninteresting.
Let's hope new Zelda will be able to dogde that.
there is nothing more creative than "go there, kill stuff, come back, receive reward"
But Bethesda RPGs have a far too high "content" density.
Ragnar Blackmane
Member
After having played Wind Waker I do remind rather sceptical of the approach that they are taking. IMO Zelda has always done more linear, well-structured and very detailed, handcrafted experiences better than just slapping you in the middle of a giant map with "tons of things" and ocean-sized pockets of emptiness.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
This thread shows that people have grown too accustomed to extremes in game design.
Most design is a product of extremes. It's why minimalism is so popular.
Omega Kirby
Member
Where's your sense of adventure?
You're right, but I do think this is more of a metaphorical getting lost than the fearful, "where am I?" kind of getting lost. After all, there's a giant overworld map you can refer to at any time.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Nothing says adventure like repeatedly wandering into identical packs of enemies surrounding identical campfires.
brandonh83
Banned
There's things to find and do, the land is littered by over 100 shrines and core dungeons. If you just stand around in a field ignoring everything to do that's your problem
Omega Kirby
Member
Yeah cause we've seen all the enemies this game has to offer already right?
KojiKnight
Member
Getting COMPLETELY lost isn't fun... but getting detoured and distracted can be VERY fun. It's why many people really enjoyed Skyrim even if they never beat the main story. They got lost, but they found plenty of things to do.
Cipher Peon
Banned
I was with him until the "getting lost is okay" part.
I HATE HATE HATE getting lost in games, it's the absolute least engaging and frustrating experience imaginable. It wastes my time and throws the few hours I get to play video games down the toilet. Also incredibly amusing that he said that the previous Zelda games were designed to prevent the players getting lost because I got lost in the 3D Zelda games constantly. Definitely needed to streamline those.
But I am very pleased with how Breath of the Wild looks and I look forward to playing it today!
I HATE HATE HATE getting lost in games, it's the absolute least engaging and frustrating experience imaginable. It wastes my time and throws the few hours I get to play video games down the toilet. Also incredibly amusing that he said that the previous Zelda games were designed to prevent the players getting lost because I got lost in the 3D Zelda games constantly. Definitely needed to streamline those.
But I am very pleased with how Breath of the Wild looks and I look forward to playing it today!
I was one of those complainers. This was one of the reasons I never finished OoT.
But remember that Hyrule Field was just a flat piece of nothing. Compare that to this sprawling, detailed open world and it already looks more entertaining, even if we're just moving around. I still haven't played through a 3D Zelda, but this looks to me like it'll be worth the purchase on day one.
Basically.
I have 100 hours on the PS3 ver. and I only visited 4 towns and barely explored the main story so yeah, getting sidetracked exploring vast landscapes can be insanely fun.
Of course it's OK if there are pockets of emptiness. Just as it's OK if there's silence in music. Not only is it OK, it's absolutely essential for there to be any rhythm at all!
There is really no other logical way to design a game world like this except with obvious areas of interest and stretches of relatively less distinctive land in between. If you try to pack it too much, not only would it seem very artificial and contrived but the directedness of the player's actions would be diminished. With a properly designed world, the player automatically establishes a hierarchy of important places and less important intervening areas. This makes the world understandable.
Right now, just a cursory glance at the map reveals places you want to check out: Hyrule Castle, a large lake, the Temple of Time, a huge tower, a volcano, and so forth. Once you decide where to go, traversing the "empty" spaces between them becomes important gameplay. While these places won't compete in terms of visual interest, they will serve as connective tissue and hide lower level points of interest (secrets). This is how the player will feel they have "discovered" stuff they were meant to find all along by being drawn into barren-looking land on their way to large-scale features.
There is really no other logical way to design a game world like this except with obvious areas of interest and stretches of relatively less distinctive land in between. If you try to pack it too much, not only would it seem very artificial and contrived but the directedness of the player's actions would be diminished. With a properly designed world, the player automatically establishes a hierarchy of important places and less important intervening areas. This makes the world understandable.
Right now, just a cursory glance at the map reveals places you want to check out: Hyrule Castle, a large lake, the Temple of Time, a huge tower, a volcano, and so forth. Once you decide where to go, traversing the "empty" spaces between them becomes important gameplay. While these places won't compete in terms of visual interest, they will serve as connective tissue and hide lower level points of interest (secrets). This is how the player will feel they have "discovered" stuff they were meant to find all along by being drawn into barren-looking land on their way to large-scale features.
Holy Order Sol
Member
yeah, no.. It's only evidence that the Nx version forced them to not use the gamepad meaningfully.
Are you Zoro from One Piece?
RobotMoses
Member
Green Tunic hints? Yiss! That one Reddit photo looked really cool.
My guess on how the villages/towns work:
1) Either you drive out the Guardians from an area, and the town becomes populated again (or you find people to fill the town).
or
2) The towns only show up through time travel. So, you're in the middle of some ruins, but once a Guardian has been destroyed or whatever, you can activate a spell og crystal to "restore" the town in a bubble of time.
My guess on how the villages/towns work:
1) Either you drive out the Guardians from an area, and the town becomes populated again (or you find people to fill the town).
or
2) The towns only show up through time travel. So, you're in the middle of some ruins, but once a Guardian has been destroyed or whatever, you can activate a spell og crystal to "restore" the town in a bubble of time.
dampflokfreund
Banned
I hope this translates to the dungeons as well. In modern Zelda games they are way too simple, never get lost, but thats part of the fun.
BobTheFork
Member
Not used to the new Zelda name yet and I thought that meant Best of The Worst. I would love to see Aonuma on Best of the Worst.
Silphonica
Banned
It depends on how its done. Skyrim is an inspiration, there are sparse points, but theres lots of things to do like camps, villages, cities, mines different quest lines and goals. How that translates into zelda is another thing.
tkscz
Member
Considering Xenoblade X, I'd say it's game design considering the story we know so far is that the guardians fucked things up.
Cipher Peon
Banned
John Kowalski
Banned
Seems kinda impossible to get lost when you have a perfectly convenient map and an always on minimap.
AndrewDean84xX
Banned
It sounds stupid, but I find that The Witcher 3's map has too much going on. Bandit camps, guarded treasures, monster nests, etc. I think the map should have been smaller and have way less of those locations. The emptiness is welcomed sometimes. It's my favorite thing about Wind Waker.
UpDownLeftRight
Banned
Zoro is infamous for getting lost in any situation, even where it seems impossible to do so.