Glass Rebel
Member
They probably had hearts in the beginning but had to reevaluate them as soon as they put the game into Chiko's hands.
Chiko:
Aonuma: "...ok, take the hearts out."
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Aonuma on BotW: "it's OK if there's pocket of emptiness" "Getting lost is fun."
- Thread starter BY2K
- Start date
They probably had hearts in the beginning but had to reevaluate them as soon as they put the game into Chiko's hands.
Chiko:
Aonuma: "...ok, take the hearts out."
Saying "Getting lost is good" is a big change from a Nintendo dev. Getting lost is one of the main reasons I prefer 2D Zelda to 3D and prefer the original Metroid to ZM. If you're making a game where exploration is important and the player never gets lost and always knows where to go, you've failed.
The worlds of Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess were so disappointing. They were big for nothing. There was nothing to do in them. Nowhere to go.
I'm a lot more interested in BotW now.
The worlds of Ocarina of Time and Twilight Princess were so disappointing. They were big for nothing. There was nothing to do in them. Nowhere to go.
I'm a lot more interested in BotW now.
I think its clear that Xenoblade has been a huge influence.
Newtype-001
Member
I agree, to an extent its good
I think the stigma with open-world design is how things inevitably become CTRL + V.
Enemy camps, towers, temple entrances, bases. The only defining trait is the geography.
3D Zelda games before were still partial to this, granted, but it feels kind of icky to repeatedly see camp fires with enemy gathered around it.
Also I think fast-travel is mandatory in open-world design imo
Enemy camps, towers, temple entrances, bases. The only defining trait is the geography.
3D Zelda games before were still partial to this, granted, but it feels kind of icky to repeatedly see camp fires with enemy gathered around it.
Also I think fast-travel is mandatory in open-world design imo
Not the case with Xenoblade Chronicles and X. Varied, unique and hand crafted. Nintendo can do open world.
HandsomeCharles
Member
Holy shit that made me laugh!
I swear to god if they make an insect that looks like a Rupee I'll.... just complain about it some more!
I wonder if enemies will scale. One of the shittiest things about A Link Between Worlds is that they wanted every path you chose to be the right one, so enemies and dungeons were all one static difficulty, meaning the game was a complete snore.
But scaling enemies is even worse, since that also keeps your progress at one relative level of challenge - it's important that you be able to go back and kill earlier enemies quicker with your upgraded weapons and armor.
But scaling enemies is even worse, since that also keeps your progress at one relative level of challenge - it's important that you be able to go back and kill earlier enemies quicker with your upgraded weapons and armor.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Oh man, this definitely killed my hype. There's a difference between being big, and being empty. Open world games are boring because there's not much to do. All of these games are focused on mini quests and shit and once that's over, you're just trying to get from one point to another because it's fucking boring with nothing to do. More often than not, I found myself just rushing to the next thing because the world is so dead. Man, I hope Nintendo knows what they're doing.
The difference is Zelda is the only game where killing a group of bokoblins over and over is a fun and meaningful process as you experiment and constantly discover new things about the game. BotW's overworld is like a mechanical playground, it's not concerned with realism and immersion in the sense of other open world titles.
They're hitting all the right notes with this game, I'm a little bummed it got delayed but everything we've seen so far is amazing. Unless they royally screw up the NX, they've already sold me on it.
We ask ourselves, when in the timeline has Link lacked clothes? The answer to that is Ocarina of Time. The popular theory is that during one dreary night while Ganondorf was being a butt munch to all of Hyrule, Raru slowly walked up to a sleeping link and tenderly removed his tunic and refitted him with his new one all while gently caressing Link's maturing face. I propose that when Ocarina of Time Young Link pulled the Master Sword out and went into stasis, a new timeline is created where he doesn't wake up and Raru was interrupted in the middle of his whispering of sweet nothings into Link's handsome ear. That old guy in the demo? That's Raru.
We ask ourselves, when in the timeline has Link lacked clothes? The answer to that is Ocarina of Time. The popular theory is that during one dreary night while Ganondorf was being a butt munch to all of Hyrule, Raru slowly walked up to a sleeping link and tenderly removed his tunic and refitted him with his new one all while gently caressing Link's maturing face. I propose that when Ocarina of Time Young Link pulled the Master Sword out and went into stasis, a new timeline is created where he doesn't wake up and Raru was interrupted in the middle of his whispering of sweet nothings into Link's handsome ear. That old guy in the demo? That's Raru.
Beren the Empty-Handed
Member
Alternatively, he could have just played the NES Zelda games and saw that Nintendo arrived at the same conclusion he did decades ago.
I didn't even know I wanted multiple dungeon entrances until now.
They did do it once in ALTTP (Dark World Forest) though.
Not just skull woods, Turtle Rock had numerous exits too.
I think those games were actually dense. Towns were bustling with people and quests, and the world was littered with enemies. (To an even greater degree in X) Chronicle's also had the slight benefit of not being entirely open-world, so individual areas could be more unique and hand-crafted given that there's only specific entrances to them.
BotW still looks nice, and sure as hell has more featured fields than TP.
At the same time, I can't shake the feeling that I'm looking at a ho-hum Ubisoft/Just Cause game.
John Kowalski
Banned
It's ok to lose your way.
Did you find the areas in Xenoblade Chronicles boring to traverse? Ignoring quests, there were secret areas and monsters scattered around the map. That's the joy of exploration. Discovery. I personally thought the ocean in WW was boring as fuck to traverse because most of the islands weren't even islands. They seemed to have learned their lesson with BotW but time will tell.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
They're going to make at least a few mistakes like that. Maybe not enemy scaling specifically, but any number of open world game mistakes will be made that other open world game developers have already made years ago and have moved on to refine other aspects and solve other issues. World density seems like the most apparent one right now.
This quote almost makes it sound like there's not much of anything to be found in the overworld, but luckily we know that's far from the case. I guess by "filling" here they mean "filling to the brim," as in they didn't want to fill the overworld to the brim, with things to do. If we hadn't seen footage I'd be concerned this meant the world was totally empty, but glad that in the footage we've seen there's a wonderful balance of activity and just exploration for its own sake.
Oh you're right! And light/dark world transitions to get stuff.
TDLink
Member
I really don't get the people who want the game (or any other game) to be ridiculously dense with random shit. That doesn't make the game better. It's artificial padding. With huge open worlds it's simply impractical to do. This one has a longer dev cycle than most but it would still be a ridiculous undertaking. These games aren't procedurally generated, they're handcrafted. Do you actually want this game to come out or be in perpetual development?
Beyond the manpower element, worlds just aren't like that! Have you guys actually gone out into the real world? There are not non-stop things every 5 feet. Forests are vast and seeing wildlife (other than bugs) is somewhat rare. Rolling plains can go as far as the eye can see without a single animal unless it's a farm. Mountains and Deserts are desolate places. Obviously video games "need" to be a bit more interesting so they add points of interest and enemies all over the place and wildlife at a greater rate of appearance than real life. But what do people honestly expect here?
Areas of "emptiness" are more than ok. The world has to remain compelling. The points of interest have to be cool. The movement through the world has to feel satisfying. If it's done right it makes the world feel much more alive than being dotted with random crap.
Beyond the manpower element, worlds just aren't like that! Have you guys actually gone out into the real world? There are not non-stop things every 5 feet. Forests are vast and seeing wildlife (other than bugs) is somewhat rare. Rolling plains can go as far as the eye can see without a single animal unless it's a farm. Mountains and Deserts are desolate places. Obviously video games "need" to be a bit more interesting so they add points of interest and enemies all over the place and wildlife at a greater rate of appearance than real life. But what do people honestly expect here?
Areas of "emptiness" are more than ok. The world has to remain compelling. The points of interest have to be cool. The movement through the world has to feel satisfying. If it's done right it makes the world feel much more alive than being dotted with random crap.
Cow Mengde
Banned
The original one or the sequel? The original wasn't too bad because while big, it wasn't too big. In XCX, exploring is rewarded with information and setting the becons up to learn about the world.
Other open world games are big and open to serve as padding because the mechanics are too shallow to last more than 5 minutes. That doesn't seem to be the case in BOW, but it's still worrying to hear these comments.
Right from the PR department.
Spiral Insanity
Banned
Meanwhile when the NX version is promoted the main selling point will be density.
That's true, but questing and combat get repetitive quickly in Xenoblade. It's a beautiful world, but it severely lacks variety and depth in the mechanical department. That's why BotW is the only open world game that appeals to me.
Xenoblade is completely void of environmental interaction: I want to hack down trees, hurl boulders, put things on fire, create pillars of ice, snowboard, etc. etc.
Not to mention all the shrines with clever puzzles and tight level design; there's none of that in X.
Just better textures and I will be happy, lol
open your eyes
;p
but seriously the gameplay videos going around should help you shake that feeling
tkscz
Member
I don't mind it being empty enemy wise, as that's where the theme of the game lies. It's obviously after some apocalyptic event has taken place and thus I don't really expect to see lots of enemies and people, however, I do expect to see lots of ruins and the like just lying around broken. In the demo there was a lot of that to explore and I hope to see more of it in the other regions. It helps engage me in a world where everything is supposed to seem like an idiot thought it was a good idea to give beamos (known for doing tons of damage) legs and they ended up destroying everything.
I hope "getting lost is fun" becomes more of a thing in general. "No one likes getting lost" is a platitude that applies to a few specific kinds of "lost" (like backtracking through areas with no clue of where to go next or missing stuff due to awful signposting), yet it has become an unquestioned dogma that is utterly toxic to interesting level design and exploration, so the more it's challenged the better.
Bots are better than you
Banned
BotW reminds me more and more of Zelda 1 ... that game was the very definition of being lost, down to the "the heck i'm supposed to do?".
Although, playing Zelda 1 at the age of 5 in '89 without understanding any English was a bit too much sometimes. ^^
Although, playing Zelda 1 at the age of 5 in '89 without understanding any English was a bit too much sometimes. ^^
Dangansona
Member
That was one of my favorite things of MGSV.
He's right. Adventure is about traversing emptiness and finding something. As long as they place things frequently enough, like shrines and enemy outposts, items and chests, it'll stay fun.
My worry is what happens when you've exhausted an area's meaningful 'content'. I feel like, as you play, you'll have less and less placed to visit very quickly.
My worry is what happens when you've exhausted an area's meaningful 'content'. I feel like, as you play, you'll have less and less placed to visit very quickly.
DecoReturns
Member
I like the amount of stuff I'm seeing in the Zelda World.
I mean, I've been to forest areas and deserts. You guys know that those areas are not extactly filled with stuff right in every inch?
There a certain beauty about the emptiness I enjoy.
I mean, I've been to forest areas and deserts. You guys know that those areas are not extactly filled with stuff right in every inch?
There a certain beauty about the emptiness I enjoy.
MGSV didn't handle it well, imo. It had vast areas of emptiness that were a chore to traverse and contained nothing interesting. And it had awkward fast-travel.
I know this was not intended for me, but actually, I did. I would always fall asleep, as in literally playing on my bed and nodding off. The combat was just so so boring.
I´m pleasantly surprised as well, but is this really this strange? When Nintendo takes on something new for them they usually come out with a big surprise. When going into 3D they went from SMW to Mario 64, when taking on the shooter genre they got Splatoon, when trying a racing game they got FZero and Super Mario Kart...I think we get the best of Nintendo when they don´t have something to fall back to and must push forward, when they take on something new and deconstruct the genre to it´s smallest components to rebuild it with their unique vision.
From what I´ve seen of BoTW, this seems like a bigger leap for 3D Zelda than it was going from Mario64 or Sunshine to Galaxy, much bigger indeed.
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
I was thinking the opposite. In Zelda 1, you had fast action and quick traversal across the map. There wasn't any down time. Each screen had clear interactive objects to find secrets in or ways to progress. It seems archaic today, but it did a lot of things right by innovating while not overthinking it. It looks like there's tons of down time and empty space to traverse in BotW. That has it's benefits, but a lot is compromised.
yanipheonu
Member
It's a wilderness. With fields and open spaces. I dunno, feels like people gotta get out more often when ideas of "barrenness" get thrown around lol.
Not that I don't understand the complaint, but sometimes the open world is, well, open. It's like the gaming equivalent of the That's The Joke.
Not that you can't dislike a lack of focus in an area, or even not like it as a direction for Zelda. There's an argument to be had there. I understand. But the bits of gameplay design I've seen so far makes me think they may be doing open world right. And if it's an open world, there just will be open space.
Also don't forget MGSV you couldn't climb everything which forced you to go allll the way around some big mountain and Snake could even annoyingly slide down the smallest of slopes (that you know he should be able to walk up with no effort).
That's a good example of a game where I never felt compelled to fast-travel. Traversal was quick and fun (riding a horse was a joy), there was never too much empty space, and dynamic events seems scripted to occur whenever things might get too boring.
That's a good point. The routes don't seem as predefined in BotW, which will help a lot in traversing the same areas multiple times if you choose too.
Different times and different paradigms. It's true that traversal was fast, but our imaginations were exploring a huge world. So you know, this leads to different schools of thought when it comes to designing a world.
The difference between this game's occasional empty locations and the empty locations of the last game that bore me (Uncharted 4) is as follows:
1) Zelda lets you literally go/climb anywhere. U4 has invisible walls and unclimbable surfaces everywhere, making the open level design feel artificial AND pointless. For the same square footage with no items or enemies or NPCs or collectibles, I can scour every interesting surface in Zelda.
2) I prefer the level design in Zelda. Just the forest section had more interesting structures, placement of trees and rocks, verticality, etc to look around in. When you leave the chamber, you can immediately jump off an alcove into a lake, head toward some ruins or the Temple of Time, etc. And the sheer scale, mystery, and accessibility of it all makes it more inherently interesting for me to wander around than it does in most other games' empty level spaces.
I doubt I will mind the emptiness in BotW unless it gets too carried away. I still want NPCs and enemies and items along the way, which it seems it will provide.
A great example is Red Dead Redemption. That game made you want to take the scenic route.
1) Zelda lets you literally go/climb anywhere. U4 has invisible walls and unclimbable surfaces everywhere, making the open level design feel artificial AND pointless. For the same square footage with no items or enemies or NPCs or collectibles, I can scour every interesting surface in Zelda.
2) I prefer the level design in Zelda. Just the forest section had more interesting structures, placement of trees and rocks, verticality, etc to look around in. When you leave the chamber, you can immediately jump off an alcove into a lake, head toward some ruins or the Temple of Time, etc. And the sheer scale, mystery, and accessibility of it all makes it more inherently interesting for me to wander around than it does in most other games' empty level spaces.
I doubt I will mind the emptiness in BotW unless it gets too carried away. I still want NPCs and enemies and items along the way, which it seems it will provide.
A great example is Red Dead Redemption. That game made you want to take the scenic route.