Yeah I feel like there's almost no point in arguing. Myself and others comment and come back 1 page later and you still have exactly the same stupid arguments à la "who cares, it's just videogames!".
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Dishonored 2 to feature prominent LGBT characters
- Thread starter theecakee
- Start date
Yeah I feel like there's almost no point in arguing. Myself and others comment and come back 1 page later and you still have exactly the same stupid arguments à la "who cares, it's just videogames!".
Of course there were people wanting it. But that isn't pressure. There were people wanting and suggesting lots of different things, there is absolutely nothing that shows that the inclusion of LGBT characters was the most requested feature. Or that there were some large scale organised lobby effort against the developers, or that they in any way shape or form were under pressure to include an LGBT character.
What, pray tell, are the "right experiences"?
I'm pretty sure that the devs don't have the experience of being a teleporting assassin living in a steampunk-ish world. Yet they managed to create that. This notion that you must have lived in a certain manner in order to tackle certain subjects is frankly just insulting to the developers.
Yeah. I actually don't understand where this even comes from. Have people never watched a single movie or read a single book? Writers write about people different from themselves all the damn time. They can use their own personal experience to inform their writing but that's far from the only thing they can use. Why would video games be different?
mikefrails
Banned
Why are you being so pedantic?
Let me put it like this. As a black person, I don't want someone who doesn't understand the black experience writing characters about black people. Now, I don't know how these writers relate to LGBT people but I hope they have actual members of that community giving them insight so the characters come out unique and inspiring for everyone, especially other LGBT people.
Looked them up, good stuff. The writing is clearly in good hands so there's no need to worry.
Nikodemos
Member
I hope Emily isn't gay, and is in a relationship with some dude.
There's this rather disagreeable current in Western popular culture, particularly the US, that pre-supposes all women with chiseled features and close-cropped hair to be invariably/inevitably lesbian. Arkane making Emily a regular ol' girl with 'sharper' aesthetics that is in a relationship with a guy would be a subversion of that.
There's this rather disagreeable current in Western popular culture, particularly the US, that pre-supposes all women with chiseled features and close-cropped hair to be invariably/inevitably lesbian. Arkane making Emily a regular ol' girl with 'sharper' aesthetics that is in a relationship with a guy would be a subversion of that.
Messofanego
Banned
Cara Ellison and Sachka Duval along with Harvey Smith, can't wait to see the fruits of their labour.
This really isn't pedantry. Wait, is me pointing out that this isn't pedantry pedantic behaviour?
You said they were under "pressure" without having anything to back that claim up. I just pointed out that there is nothing to suggest that they were under pressure.
That is a much better formulated way of expressing you worries about how the game will deal with LGBT themes. But since we know nothing about how they have gone about this, it feels a bit preemptive. Neil Druckmann said he consulted with LGBT members of staff and other friends when he wrote Ellie, I see no reason why Arkane wouldn't.
This is seems like reaching to me. Most people wouldn't identify Emily as a lesbian stereotype because of just her hairstyle, and there would be nothing bold at all about putting her in a straight relationship.
Nikodemos
Member
Bolded.
So an "action woman" with 'non-feminine' dressing tastes and sharper features 'has' to be gay? Seems like stereotyping to me. A diffferent kind, but still stereotyping.
mikefrails
Banned
Because we would've seen better representation (which I still don't believe we're there yet) years ago if these creators were naturally inclined to inclusion and not maintaining the status quo. Of course you could say they're just responding to demand, but I've seen enough whack examples of these characters to believe some devs feel pressure to check the box off. I don't think it's totally unfounded to think that. These creators are human and not everyone has been putting their best foot forward.
Brushguy Woodthreep
Member
This post is brilliant.
No, I'm saying that I don't think her haircut alone would make Emily seem like a stereotype if it turned out she was a lesbian.
Messofanego
Banned
10/10
Holy shit this post is great.
Nikodemos
Member
But her being non-paternalistically-feminine would, and that's my problem.
There are way too few women like Mass Effect's Jack as video game characters.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I disagree.
Name me a female game protagonist who is in/pursues a relationship with a man, please?
If you can think of a few of them please post them in this thread 'cause I'd like to know...
I guess I meant it wouldn't be subversive with regards to her appearance allegedly being a lesbian stereotype.
You're right that we don't see a whole lot of cases where a woman is playable and her relationship with a man is explored from the player's perspective.
-duskdoll-
Member
There's no pressure, there's incentive. People are more accepting today than they were 10 years ago, so naturally, writing an LGBT character becomes an option because why wouldn't they?
Non-straight devs write about straight characters all the time. And so what if they end up being stereotypical? Why can't there be shity LGBT characters? Some people may disagree but i would rather have quantity than quality, because society has yet to be completely open minded about these things. It's not an issue of how well these characters are represented, it's that there very few characters like that and it is not seen as a normal thing. And still, when LGBT characters are added people complain. You think this is just a video games thing? It's not, it's been happening in TV shows and movies for a while now. Every single time a TV show or movie gets a queer character people's responses are identical to the responses in this thread. "Why do they have to be gay?" "There we go again with the gay agenda." "Stop shoving this gay stuff down our throats." And the all time classic: "I was looking forward to this but now i refuse to watch it if there are gays in it.".
Just to give an example, in the first season of Penny Dreadful there is a scene where two male characters kiss, and it is implied that they have sex. Nothing graphic, they just kiss and then then it pans out to the next scene. There is also an orgy in the same episode and it involves one of the men and about 10 other women. Can you guess what people lost their shit about?
Hint: it's not the orgy.
My point is, it's not up to the writers to make queer characters more appealing, it's up to the rest of the world to grow the fuck up.
Sorry for the wall of text.
SapphiCine
Member
Shit. Now that you mention it.
I assume what he/she is referring to is the reluctance to show a female protagonist in a relationship with a guy, as this thread talked about: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1224957
EDIT: Morrigan already covered it.
Theanine3D
Member
Thank you for this post. It's astounding that people don't listen to how ridiculous their own arguments sound. All it takes is switching a single word and the entire argument against inclusion falls apart.
Also, the argument that they were pressured into anything? LGBT people aren't even remotely large enough in numbers to influence developers like that. Straight people far outnumber us. There is no conspiracy or agenda, because just by sheer numbers, there can't be. Every time I hear this argument I feel like I'm listening to Alex Jones flap his lips, I swear.
Emperor_Uriel
Member
I think this is one of those things where GAF and the greater public are on very different pages. We might have enough exposure to know better, but most people don't.
I remember when Emma Watson got a short haircut a few years ago, and suddenly she was having to shoot down gay rumors because getting a pixie cut caused fans and journalists to question her sexuality.
Again: She wasn't photographed kissing a woman, she didn't make comments about being attracted to a woman, and she's not even a particularly androgynous lady. The simple act of getting a short haircut convinced a large number of very dumb people that she had "gone gay."
Nobody would be asking if Emily Caldwen was gay if she had long hair and wore more feminine garb. They're asking because she's masculine and tough, which many uninformed men (and the occasional radical feminist) see as incompatible with being straight.
I'd also point out: I want more lesbian representation in games too. But give me more femme lesbians, old lesbian ladies, etc.
AHA-Lambda
Member
Why?? What does it matter?
CrimsonSquall
Member
I'm shocked someone was banned in the first page of this thread
SomedayTheFire
Member
This is a fan fucking tastic post.
Woo-Fu
Banned
I personally don't care what the characters are. In most cases I'd just as soon not know unless it had an affect on gameplay. Then again I'm from a generation that believes what consenting adults do in private is their own business. It isn't any of my business. If you choose to make it my business you can't expect me to approve of everything. If you want attention but only "good" attention, be a bit more selective with your "look at me" activities. What I do care about is people trying to build controversy over artistic choice and cherry-picking one medium while ignoring others. If you want art featuring a particular subject matter then you should do what people do and have done since well, forever: commission it. Become a patron of artists that produce the type of content you approve of. Don't sit back and vilify those who don't. In the end I think the artist's decisions/opinions are more valuable than yours when it comes to what they're creating. I'll always feel that way.
I didn't say they were equivalent. I asked a question. Why didn't you answer it? Your definition of systematic oppression----as presented by your posts in this thread---fits lefties just as well as LGBTQA-Z. Have lefties been systematically oppressed and why doesn't anybody care about it?
I'm also not going to look toward the videogame industry to promote tolerance and understanding while remaining mute on how it glorifies violence and gun violence in particular. If you want the industry to be a force for change then I'd say that it has much bigger fish to fry.
I love you
GandalftheRainbow
Neo Member
Well, that is just disrespectful.
Woo-Fu
Banned
Nice cop out. If you want me to respect your position you'll have to adequately defend it.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Do you apply this reasoning to heterosexual relationships? Why should you not "approve" anyway?
The fuck are you talking about?
...Oh. I see.
What speed bump? Bigotry?
Yes. By the scissors industry.
kamineko
Does his best thinking in the flying car
This post is a cool drink of water.
Gentleman Jack
Member
The prevalence of games out there than't don't even have guns in them is far greater than those which feature LGBT cast members front and center, so criticizing Bethesda (and people who are happy with Bethesda's choices) on that front rings extremely hollow.
GearDraxon
Member
I look forward to your exhaustive posts any time a straight character mentions his wife.
Oh dear.
There's a lot here, but let's start with the relative lack of left-handed persons being targeted and murdered by the dozens in recent times.
Both are issues that can be addressed, perhaps even at the same time! Odd that you'd act otherwise, especially when things like sexuality can be addressed with a couple of lines of dialogue, whereas (sadly) gunplay tends to be at the heart of many modern games' mechanics. Note that when Justin McElroy brought up the idea of trying to lessen the glorification of guns in games a few days back, he was pilloried, even here on GAF.
I really wish i could understand what you are hoping to achieve. I really, really don't.
If you really think this is a good argument, you are being willfully ignorant of the way queer people have been killed, driven to suicide or demonised in many many cultures throughout history and still today.
People asking for representation aren't here to ruin your games. It's not being shoved down your throat. We not asking you to watch "what we do behind closed doors". We are just hoping gay people can exist in games, art, media like everyone else. Just exist.
I'm at a loss for words.I hope after this thread dies, and you are maybe not feeling defensive, you can work out exactly what you are arguing against and why.
Brushguy Woodthreep
Member
So with regard to the actual topic of this thread then, I take it you're totally on board with the artists' decision to include LGBT characters in Dishonored 2?
User 73706
Banned
If you just think of LGBT characters as normal characters like all the others, it's not exactly going out of your way, is it?
WTF are you talking about? Please expand your point. The only parallels you can draw between handedness and LGBT are biological ones (which is a very interesting discussion because there are huge similarities), but we're talking about oppression and societal discourses. You can't compare the overwhelming hatred towards LGBT that exists worldwide to what left handed people face. Because left handed people don't face oppression.
VibratingDonkey
Member
Cool.
I wish people concerned about things surrounding these specific characters, would show the same concern for all characters. Or stop worrying.
I wish people concerned about things surrounding these specific characters, would show the same concern for all characters. Or stop worrying.
relevant member tag
In a month where 50 members of the lgbt community were brutally gunned down in a blatantly homophobic attack and where the media has desperately tried to paint it as anything other than an attack on the lgbt community people are trying to argue there is no systematic oppression of lgbt people.
Wonderful
Wonderful
I remember when left-handed people weren't allowed to marry and left-handedness was diagnosed as a mental illness.
Woo-Fu
Banned
Every type of person has been killed, driven to suicide, and/or demonized in many cultures throughout history and still today. If you're not us you're them and thus the enemy. Tribalism is part of human nature. Most organized sports capitalize on it to great profit, matter of fact. Whether that is right or not depends on the society---and its morals---that you're a member of. What I do know is that they weren't treated that way due to systematic oppression from the videogame industry.
I've yet to see anybody successfully pointing out systematic oppression of this particular group by the videogame industry. That is after all the comment I was replying to originally, right? See, the person I was replying to was implying that the lack of characters representative of this group was part of systematic oppression. Lot of knee-jerk responses seem to be missing that. I'm trying to understand how perceived lack of representation equals systematic oppression. Since lack of representation was the defining element present for systematic oppression I naturally looked at other groups being similarly systematically oppressed and saw that their claim looked quite silly when doing so.
For somebody at a loss for words you had a lot to type. I'm not feeling defensive. If I were feeling defensive I'd stop posting because that is a sure sign you're walking into a GAF-trap.
As far as what I'm trying to achieve? Nothing. Just expressing a perhaps cynical opinion based primarily on my life experience. I will say I'm saddened that every time a bunch of people get shot people focus almost entirely upon politically-motivated band-aids instead of addressing root causes. I suppose that is to be expected with our 24-hour news cycle and a government unwilling to do anything that might endanger re-election opportunities. Instead of saying "Hey, maybe we need to address the lack of mental health care services." Or, "Hey, maybe it is time to stand up to the NRA and get some real gun control." We roll out a month or two of increased support for whatever group most of the victims belong to and then go about business as usual.
Those people didn't get killed as a result of systematic oppression. They got killed because America lets crazy people buy and carry guns. Those are problems a government could do something about if the people demanded it.
The latter.
That's... what we're doing. That's what this thread is about. It's literally people saying "hey this game has prominent LBGT characters, let's support it."
Do you have a problem with that? Because your message seems a bit confused to me beyond a general unhappiness with people discussing LBGT representation in games.
I don't think anyone in this thread cares a whit for your respect at this point, but for what it's worth I'm seeing dozens of people defending that position, eloquently and reasonably, by going into detail on what they want to see, why they want to see it, and the underlying problems with the game industry that they believe lead to this situation.
You're answering that with a bunch of very strange comparisons (LBGT = left-handed, really?) and a forceful statement of your own emotional feelings about the issue. All that stuff about what you care about and about what you feel the proper way to push for change is and all that is just your emotions, not rational arguments; if the best argument you can think of is "alright, so, picture LBGT people are like left-handed people", or "how can you discuss LBGT issues when guns exist", then yeah, nobody's gonna take you seriously.
(Because I am completely pedantic, I'll answer your "argument" about left-handedness anyway. There is extremely heavy social and cultural pressure towards straight white male protagonists; it's just that people don't usually see this because it is taken for granted. At every step in the process of making a game, there are people who will say "nah, you have to make the protagonist more white / straight / male / etc or it won't sell." And because the game industry is inherently conservative -- in the sense of only being willing to pour money into stuff that has succeeded in the past -- the games that we want to see often don't even exist for us to support with our wallets the way you suggested; this thread is about a rare exception. The level of vitriol that people like, well, you have brought to this thread shows how strong that pressure towards the "default" straight-white-male checklist is; anything that questions it sparks an immediate reactionary response.)
I'll also point out that your parsing of the issue is extremely emotionally-charged and judgmental; things like "vilify" and "trying to build controversy" and "'look at me' activities" aren't an accurate or rational summary of what's happening here. Eg. all discussion feels like you're being vilified; anyone discussing what they want out of games is trying to build a controversy out of look at me activity... that's not an argument, that's you trying to clobber people you disagree with over the head with your emotional response. It's an extremely hostile and not-very-accurate parsing of the entire discussion, so it's natural that people are going to dismiss anything you base on it.
If you want people to take you seriously -- if you don't want to be dismissed the way you're getting dismissed above -- then you need to be able to put those emotionally-laden judgements aside.
Yeah it's a knock at the letters. Not necessarily bigotry though.
I think the biggest mistake was making it acronym based - it was just asking for trouble. Sexuality for many exist on a spectrum, you're never going to represent everyone, even with 26 letters in the alphabet to use. LGBTA works fine, it's not perfect , but adding more letters onto the end is just distracting. I get it doesn't display every possible combination of people, but the A at the end is at least an attempt to represent everyone.