DonMigs85
Member
Pretty sure it's the other way around, since the Xbone GPU is at least partially derived from the 7790 which is a Bonaire part.
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Digital Foundry: Neo GPU are point-for-point a match for RX 480
- Thread starter Shtof
- Start date
Pretty sure it's the other way around, since the Xbone GPU is at least partially derived from the 7790 which is a Bonaire part.
In a FET, the drain current (Ids) for a given drain voltage (Vds) is controlled by the gate voltage (Vgs).
To claim 2x the gate control is not quite clear in the intent, but could relate to the magnitude of the leakage current in off mode, or how rapidly (delta Vgs) it takes to go from pinch off to conducting.
ethomaz
Banned
Nope... read the article... Xbone lacks what made a GNC 1.1 card while GCN 1.1 was based in what they did with PS4.
An easy comparison without enter in details...
GCN 1.0 = 2 ACEs = Xbone
GCN 1.1 = 8 ACEs = PS4
That was discussed at PS4/Xbone launch.
SlickShoesRUCrazy
Member
Um, did you read your own article? Doesn't say that you need 8 ACE to be GCN 1.1.
It says that GCN 1.1 allows the use of 2 or more ACE.
Even says multiple times that the gpu the xb1 is based on is GCN 1.1 as the HD7790 was the first GCN 1.1 gpu.
LurkFish17
Member
So I've seen this thread shift back and forward from bullish on hardware to ultra pessimistic. Which side of the scale is everyone on right now. I personally holding out hope until we get an official announcement. Besides, why would Jim Ryan laugh when asked about a power gap?
PS4 is Polaris & the 480 is just the PS4 GPU at 14nm with 2X the CU
Cerny words
now look at Polaris HWS
Nice find!PS4 is Polaris & the 480 is just the PS4 GPU at 14nm with 2X the CU
Cerny words
now look at Polaris HWS
I found it years ago
Could Sony create fixed function pipelines for the PS4 even after release?
Me said:
Me said:
Me said:
Me said:
ethomaz
Banned
Well you can be right about Xbone being GCN 1.1 but PS4 is definitively GCN 1.1 too... I listed all GCN 1.1 GPUs:
Radeon HD 7790
Radeon HD 8770
Radeon R7 260
Radeon R7 260X
Radeon R9 290
Radeon R9 290X
Radeon R9 295X2
Radeon R7 360
Radeon R9 360
Radeon R9 390
Radeon R9 390X
Radeon R9 M280X
Radeon R9 M385
Radeon R9 M385X
Kaveri, Kabini, Temash, Beema, Mullins and Carrizo-L APUs
PlayStation 4 Liverpool
Xbox One Durango???
Edit - After more research I did found GCN 1.1 based GPUs with 2 ACEs... fixed.
Maybe we'll get a 36CU vega GPU?
Middle ground now.
Jim Ryan might laugh because he doesn't want to discuss neo officially yet, plus he need to perpetuate the image of Sony being a technology leader and so they'll have powerful consoles. Just managing the message - doesn't mean anything necessarily
PS4 is Polaris & the 480 is just the PS4 GPU at 14nm with 2X the CU
Cerny words
now look at Polaris HWS
Only 4 ACEs though - how would that affect BC with PS4? I thought the ACEs on PS4 were in hardware so what is the change happening here? I do like the push from Sony with a sync compute, at least something useful is coming out of the work they did on PS3. Would be good if some of that got decent support on PC but might be unlikely
7850 or 7870 never bad 8 ACE's why people think there must be 4 ACE's In the NEO. I don't get It. It means nothing that there are only 4 ACE's In the 480.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
.What is your definition of hope. Its not as if Sony or the Playstation ecosystem needs to even be hardware competitive to be successful.
They could have stuck with PS4, released a slim, and still have been in the lead, Scorpio or no Scorpio.
Infact, i think it would have been a better plan, since the people who generally do care about power would have just waited for Sony's next platform, which presumably would have been superior to NEO and Scorpio anyway had they not bothered with this iterative upgrade.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
They may be even deeper queues in each ACE or each ACE is more efficient at guaranteeing the same latency hiding and compute jobs scheduling promises... or that is just a diagram and NEO GPU still maintains 8 ACE's with a queue of 8 elements each.
Ok cool. What are the implications of a hardware scheduler? I though thats what there already was?
jeff_rigby
Banned
It appears that Sony plans to take advantage of the XB1 Scorpio delay and NEO - VR in 2017.
Aim for the second time in the operating income of 5,000 billion yen in Sony history in FY '17
Aim for the second time in the operating income of 5,000 billion yen in Sony history in FY '17
2017 with HEVC and HTML5 <video> in browsers creates an opportunity for Sony Network services in everyones platform.
StrongBlackVine
Banned
Trade-ins are not necessary. It isn't a replacement for your PS4 unless you want it to be.
but retailers are likely to offer trade-in incentives to get you to trade up and to get more used PS4s as stock to sell on.
Although if you think you're in the market for neo, might be better off trading in soon, or selling privately. When neo is announced there will surely be a price drop on PS4 which will have obvious knock-on effects on used prices.
They are going to want to sell stock regardless. People acting like they are going to price this thing at some insane price with no option to even upgrade for users just because its an 'optional unit' generally are going down the rabbit hole in regards to what is even sellable with that hardware in a console.
They would sell even more consoles with a trade in program for an already sold unit.
Its far more likely IMO, for PS4 to get a significant price drop, and NEO to come in with a normal price than for NEO to come in at a far more expensive price point.
serversurfer
Member
Ah, right on. Thanks. <3 In any case, AMD are building a 16-core (32-thread) Zen APU, and that should be ~200W for the CPU alone, so I don't think 150W is some kind of hard limit for APU budgets.
Gotcha. Thanks, gang. <3
The Hardware Scheduler (HWS) is kind of a super-ACE. Each HWS has 16 queues, and basically does the work of a pair of ACEs, and offers more scheduling flexibility, while retaining compatibility with older code.
2xHWS + 4xACE ≥ 8xACE
I don't have any strong feelings either way about an official trade-in program, but I would say that Neo is very much intended to be a replacement for your PS4. If you have Neo, what possible need would you have for your PS4, assuming you don't need two consoles? What motivation is there for keeping your PS4 once you have Neo? Give that thing to someone who'll actually use it
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Worried if only because the noise and power draw in all of the reviews for the 480 is fucking crazy high.
Idk idk...
Idk idk...
4 ACEs + 2 HWS that also do the work of 2 ACEs each = 8 ACEs with 4 of these ACEs having their own minds & not needing a CPU to tell them what to do because they can be programmed at the driver level.
No, Orbis and Durango GPUs share a feature set that is a mix of 1.1 and 1.2 however the CU/ROP/TMU setup is based on Pitcairn design.
Omnistalgic
Member
I came here for answers....
Disappointed
Disappointed
Whoa! Sony filed a patent this January for this "Uprendering" technique. - http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20160005344.pdf
Is this how Neo plans to get to 4K!? The patent describes a hardware based technique that uses multiple frames of data and reconstructs them into a higher resolution image. This will NOT be as good as native 4K - but this could be a very intelligent and elegant compromise.
The interesting thing about this tecnhiqe? You need super high resolutions to make it more accurate. 60 FPS = more data = more image information = accurate reconstruction. I'm sure it falls apart in some areas, but motion blur and high framerates should go a long way in easing those concerns.
Is this how Neo plans to get to 4K!? The patent describes a hardware based technique that uses multiple frames of data and reconstructs them into a higher resolution image. This will NOT be as good as native 4K - but this could be a very intelligent and elegant compromise.
The interesting thing about this tecnhiqe? You need super high resolutions to make it more accurate. 60 FPS = more data = more image information = accurate reconstruction. I'm sure it falls apart in some areas, but motion blur and high framerates should go a long way in easing those concerns.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Looking at today's reviews of the RX 480 and it completely eliminates any possibility of a 5-6 TF Neo upgrade for me.
In fact it is worrying going forward for Scorpio and next gen that AMD power/watt is so relatively poor and could be as big an issue as node shrinks are now. Hopefully AMD switching to TSMC for Vega fixes some of this.
In fact it is worrying going forward for Scorpio and next gen that AMD power/watt is so relatively poor and could be as big an issue as node shrinks are now. Hopefully AMD switching to TSMC for Vega fixes some of this.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Global Foundries using Samsung's 14nm process.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
??. I know Polaris is on Samsung's 14nmFF tech via GF but I mentioned TSMC because it is rumoured that Vega is switching to it and Scorpio may use a Vega chip.
The main point I was making though is that the RX 480 uses 160W+ including 8GB of RAM @1120/1266 and I would guess the Neo's whole APU+RAM would need to be in the ~110W range or even lower. So the current 911MHz/4.2 TF is probably already pushing things as is from a power consumption standpoint.
Most likely it is still 8, two per that ACE block.
This was already dicussed here on GAF. It sounds more like something that will be used in uprezzing emulated PS2 games than 1080p>4K.
I posted this awhile ago
amstradcpc
Member
So Osiris saying that the 5,5 Tflops option could delay the launch to next year to make it more affordable(with cheaper cooling solution,smaller case...) has its logic in waiting the chip to be made by TSMC.No way Neo could launch with a GF chip at 5,5 Tflops.
Interesting news:
https://twitter.com/mochi_wsj?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
WSJ analyst is claiming after the recent Sony investors meeting that Sony is planning to announce a PS4 Slim on top of Neo in September at Tokyo Game Show.
https://twitter.com/mochi_wsj?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
WSJ analyst is claiming after the recent Sony investors meeting that Sony is planning to announce a PS4 Slim on top of Neo in September at Tokyo Game Show.
Crimson_Gold
Member
This isn't that surprising
Omnistalgic
Member
No more...no more rumors!!! I just want some answers so I can decide when to get another PS4 already!!
Proelite
Member
1080mhz. 5 teraflops. PR win.
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Osiris' original thread only talked about a upgraded CPU not a GPU upgrade. That came a lot later and from other sources? I can't honestly see how a upgraded GPU was ever actually on the cards outside Sony doing what (I assume) Microsoft to be doing i.e. going late 2017 and Vega.
LelouchZero
Member
If they're using a GPU that is based on the the RX 480 it is probably going to be clocked lower, so possibly somewhere around 900MHz as the leaks suggested or maybe even 900-1100MHz .
I think above 1000MHz is unlikely, however it depends on how far Sony want to push it.
Even with this GPU at 911MHz the PS4 Neo could potentially consume more power than the standard PlayStation 4, however it depends on what clock-speed and voltage the GPU is running at, along-side the power consumption of the other components.
The PlayStation 4 was designed to be pretty power efficient and small, the whole reason it has a two prong connector is because they wanted to keep it under 250W to make the PS4 small in size.
DS
The 7870 and 7850 don't even pull above 150 watts in power consumption, the 7850 pulls around 90-100w, while the 7870 pulls a little above that.
The RX 480 is looking to pull above 150 watts, however that's at a clock-speed of 1266MHz.
The 7870 is clocked at 1GHz and has 1280 stream processors whereas the 7850 is clocked at 860MHz and has 1024 stream processors, they are both based on the 1st Gen of Graphics Core Next.
The PS4's GPU is clocked at 800MHz and has 1152 stream processors and appears to be based on a newer version of GCN which is something akin to the 2nd Gen of Graphics Core Next.
If someone was to under-clock and under-volt the RX 480 we could possibly see how the power-consumption scales, this could potentially tell us what we could see in the PS4 Neo.
I think above 1000MHz is unlikely, however it depends on how far Sony want to push it.
Even with this GPU at 911MHz the PS4 Neo could potentially consume more power than the standard PlayStation 4, however it depends on what clock-speed and voltage the GPU is running at, along-side the power consumption of the other components.
The PlayStation 4 was designed to be pretty power efficient and small, the whole reason it has a two prong connector is because they wanted to keep it under 250W to make the PS4 small in size.
DS
The 7870 and 7850 don't even pull above 150 watts in power consumption, the 7850 pulls around 90-100w, while the 7870 pulls a little above that.
The RX 480 is looking to pull above 150 watts, however that's at a clock-speed of 1266MHz.
The 7870 is clocked at 1GHz and has 1280 stream processors whereas the 7850 is clocked at 860MHz and has 1024 stream processors, they are both based on the 1st Gen of Graphics Core Next.
The PS4's GPU is clocked at 800MHz and has 1152 stream processors and appears to be based on a newer version of GCN which is something akin to the 2nd Gen of Graphics Core Next.
If someone was to under-clock and under-volt the RX 480 we could possibly see how the power-consumption scales, this could potentially tell us what we could see in the PS4 Neo.
Timing of the announcement is not surprising.
But it's the first time that the existence of a slim version of the current PS4 is being mentioned by analysts or people in the know, so this is pretty noteworthy.
I've always questioned how they could have handled a long term strategy based on two different PS4 models without cutting costs on both, they needed to continue to invest on the current PS4 as well.
And indeed PS4 Slim seems to be the answer.
New thread ?
LelouchZero
Member
If WSJ are talking about it, it's probably true.
Hmm, Final Fantasy 15 Neo? The Tokyo Games Show is just in time, it's a couple of days prior to the launch of Final Fantasy 15.
It's new news.
Which might back up the idea of a delay to neo? If they held back waiting for more power, they'd need something to compete against Xbox one S
Crimson_Gold
Member
I meant it isn't surprising as it seemed logical to develop a slim for the reasons you explained. Good to hear that it will be coming as well.
Indeed. It's a bit odd how some folks equate a purely arbitrary block count to the actual IP revision.