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Xbox Project Scorpio Announced - 6TFlops, 320GB/s - Fall 2017

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thelastword

Banned
As far as real world performance go, you can do a hell of whole lot more with an extra ~2TFlops than you can do with 0.5 more. Things don't scale linearly exactly to use percentages. With that much more computation, it suddenly becomes practical to use new techniques and effects etc, it opens up new possibilities, not just scaling things up and down that now we see with ps4/x1. It's not that simple, remains to be seen how devs end up using it and which direction they take, but it's possible.
The fairest and most accurate method to test this is through percentages, I could understand your point if the architectures were different but they're not. Both consoles are using the same GPU architecture at this point, one may just be clocked higher hence the higher TFLOP count. People expecting the Scorpio to be way ahead of the NEO in performance are mistaken. At least the PS4 had a 7870 custom GPU where as the XB1 had a 7770, so the raw speed of the PS4 GPU would always be better, but here, both consoles are using the same GPU.....I imagine if the XB1 GPU was based on the 7870 just as the PS4, the differences would be even closer than it is currently.


If I take a reference RX480 and overclock it's core to1300MHz, I won't suddenly get double the framerate of a reference. Most times you would get an uptick of +5-10% in framerate boost. If Scorpio is going for 4k native in all games as spencer alluded to, with the most uncompressed pixels ever seen, I imagine the differences at 4k will not be that substantial between a reference and an OC'd card.
 
grafespck.jpg
this thread lately ;)



No one doubts Scorpio multiplats will outperform their PS4 Neo counterparts, But I would indeed argue that the benefits are not as big as to justify a whole year of additonal waiting time + higher price.

Usually, within a "normal" generation, we then would argue that the exclusives look much better on the faster one. But with Scorpio only being a machine that is supposed to run XBOX One games (in native 4k or in 2k but with some bells and whistles) that won't happen anytime soon.

What happens when a dev decides to release on Scorpio, or Scorpio and PC first with the Xbox One release coming later? I'm sure this will occur a few times. I don't think there's a rule forcing each version of a game to release all at the same time. And it isn't so simple as exclusives looking better on the faster system, because it isn't just about the hardware, and never has been. I've seen plenty of cases where one system just plain has a nicer looking game regardless of how powerful the hardware is compared to something else. The developer will still be important, but Scorpio owners I think can rest easy knowing the console should always be able to deliver at a pretty high level.
 

MilkyJoe

Member
This just feels like a huge missed opportunity. Releasing a "monster" of a new console and then tell people its reason d'être is to play XBOX One games but in 4k. This feels like selling a Ferrari with a non-deactivatable 70 mph speed limiter. Especially since Sony does basically exactly the same with PS4 Neo, just earlier, cheaper and not as powerful.

The enthusiasts and tech-fans who'll eventually buy Scorpio are ready for a new generation anyhow.

It's not going to happen. They have already said they will not mandate 4K. Devs can use the power how they like. I like phil but I swear he's a super troll.
 

Zedox

Member
What happens when a dev decides to release on Scorpio, or Scorpio and PC first with the Xbox One release coming later? I'm sure this will occur a few times. I don't think there's a rule forcing each version of a game to release all at the same time. And it isn't so simple as exclusives looking better on the faster system, because it isn't just about the hardware, and never has been. I've seen plenty of cases where one system just plain has a nicer looking game regardless of how powerful the hardware is compared to something else. The developer will still be important, but Scorpio owners I think can rest easy knowing the console should always be able to deliver at a pretty high level.

I doubt very much that a developer will be able to release a Scorpio game without XBO.
 
This thread shows what could be always observed.
People buying the console with worse hardware will argue differences are not that big, people with the better hardware will make fun of the other people because of their mental gymnastics and exaggerate the power of their console.

Its the reverse of the ps4 vs X1 arguments :p

You will probably see in future DF thread the my friends are on PSN and i like the
PS4 controller better arguments.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Its the reverse of the ps4 vs X1 arguments :p

You will probably see in future DF thread the my friends are on PSN and i like the
PS4 controller better arguments.

I am in for the "but if you friends are on PSN, then you cannot go wrong with that version" in the tech analysis write ups. ;P
 

Lady Gaia

Member
What happens when a dev decides to release on Scorpio, or Scorpio and PC first with the Xbox One release coming later?

Presuming there's a single SKU for both, how would that work? If there isn't a single SKU for each game that mistake would make some of Microsoft's earlier blunders look like savvy business decisions by comparison.
 

martino

Member
If you're aware that the difference in flops is about the same as the difference between PS4 & Xbox One why would you say this?

relative difference being the same mean the difference is x time bigger than previous one.
in the end there will be more power to do additional/better things than there is in the current situation (but in different context)
what is sure is that you can't tell now difference will be the same.
 
The fairest and most accurate method to test this is through percentages, I could understand your point if the architectures were different but they're not. Both consoles are using the same GPU architecture at this point, one may just be clocked higher hence the higher TFLOP count. People expecting the Scorpio to be way ahead of the NEO in performance are mistaken. At least the PS4 had a 7870 custom GPU where as the XB1 had a 7770, so the raw speed of the PS4 GPU would always be better, but here, both consoles are using the same GPU.....I imagine if the XB1 GPU was based on the 7870 just as the PS4, the differences would be even closer than it is currently..

Relative performance (percentages) is the best for comparisons, but the actual difference should also be considered. Along with compute units, there were other aspects of the PS4's GPU that gave it an advantage over the XB1's, and I think similar differences will be seen between Neo and Scorpio, favoring Scorpio. It can be assumed that Neo and Scorpio will be based on the same architecture, but not the same GPU configuration. I think gpu core clocks greater than 1000mhz are rather unlikely, in which case it can be assumed that Scorpios GPU will have more compute units in order to hit 6TF.

If I take a reference RX480 and overclock it's core to1300MHz, I won't suddenly get double the framerate of a reference. Most times you would get an uptick of +5-10% in framerate boost. If Scorpio is going for 4k native in all games as spencer alluded to, with the most uncompressed pixels ever seen, I imagine the differences at 4k will not be that substantial between a reference and an OC'd card.

It's clear it will be awhile before we really know how Neo and Scorpio compare with each other in real world gaming scenarios. I feel that the end result differences will eventually manifest into a larger delta between the two than exist between PS4 and XB1. PS4 had a better GPU, and arguably a better memory system setup, but a slightly lower clocked CPU and the same amount of RAM. Scorpio has (based on Neo rumors) a significant GPU advantage and a significant memory bandwidth advantage, while probably (based on info from the motherboard render at E3) having 50% or more RAM, and potentially a significantly more powerful CPU (if it's Zen). There's a real chance that on a component level Scorpio will have a significant advantage in every area - something we really haven't seen in two competing consoles since PS2/Xbox (which where on different architectures, making some comparisons more difficult).
 
Its the reverse of the ps4 vs X1 arguments :p

You will probably see in future DF thread the my friends are on PSN and i like the
PS4 controller better arguments.

Multi-plats on Scorp will be miles ahead..bu..bu..PS4 controller is better. LOL
That's exactly type of shit you will see come next year in DF threads.

Ahhhh silly wabbits.
 

martino

Member
It's clear it will be awhile before we really know how Neo and Scorpio compare with each other in real world gaming scenarios. I feel that the end result differences will eventually manifest into a larger delta between the two than exist between PS4 and XB1. PS4 had a better GPU, and arguably a better memory system setup, but a slightly lower clocked CPU and the same amount of RAM. Scorpio has (based on Neo rumors) a significant GPU advantage and a significant memory bandwidth advantage, while probably (based on info from the motherboard render at E3) having 50% or more RAM, and potentially a significantly more powerful CPU (if it's Zen). There's a real chance that on a component level Scorpio will have a significant advantage in every area - something we really haven't seen in two competing consoles since PS2/Xbox (which where on different architectures, making some comparisons more difficult).

if scorpio is zen / vega and neo jaguar+ / polaris architecture will not be the exact same. And it is not unlikely the newest architecture is more efficient
 

onQ123

Member
What happens when a dev decides to release on Scorpio, or Scorpio and PC first with the Xbox One release coming later? I'm sure this will occur a few times. I don't think there's a rule forcing each version of a game to release all at the same time. And it isn't so simple as exclusives looking better on the faster system, because it isn't just about the hardware, and never has been. I've seen plenty of cases where one system just plain has a nicer looking game regardless of how powerful the hardware is compared to something else. The developer will still be important, but Scorpio owners I think can rest easy knowing the console should always be able to deliver at a pretty high level.

You realize that it's 1 game right? there is no Scorpio or Neo games only Xbox One & PS4 games these games will have instructions for what to do on the better hardware but they will be the same game.
 

Quotient

Member
How is this thread still getting so much discussion over what is a very generic spec list.

Its the reverse of the ps4 vs X1 arguments :p

You will probably see in future DF thread the my friends are on PSN and i like the
PS4 controller better arguments.

Those who argued that 900p is acceptable will now argue that nothing less than 1080p is acceptable.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
You realize that it's 1 game right? there is no Scorpio or Neo games only Xbox One & PS4 games these games will have instructions for what to do on the better hardware but they will be the same game.

Has MSFT confirmed one SKU one box for the games?
 

anothertech

Member
What happens when a dev decides to release on Scorpio, or Scorpio and PC first with the Xbox One release coming later?
Doubtful. Unless MS want's to look like trolls, and fck up the messaging about scorpio even more. I don't think they'll do this, especially with their recent doubling down on the opposite by Phil.

Also, the power argument will just be a cycle if they start releasing hardware at different times. That's just how it works.
2018: Scorpio rules!
2019: But look at my PS5!
2021: Scorpio2 rules!
2022: But Neo2!!11!

and around the carousel of power we will go lol.
 
How is this thread still getting so much discussion over what is a very generic spec list.



Those who argued that 900p is acceptable will now argue that nothing less than 1080p is acceptable.

This is more than a year out, the DF threads are going to be glorious.

Scorpio is a monster, lol
 

VinFTW

Member
I know it's a common joke around here but, it definitely applies to me

I actually do still buy games on Xbox One because of the controller, online and my friends are on there.

Not all games, but some (mostly shooters w/ the exception of Destiny).
 

thelastword

Banned
Relative performance (percentages) is the best for comparisons, but the actual difference should also be considered. Along with compute units, there were other aspects of the PS4's GPU that gave it an advantage over the XB1's, and I think similar differences will be seen between Neo and Scorpio, favoring Scorpio. It can be assumed that Neo and Scorpio will be based on the same architecture, but not the same GPU configuration. I think gpu core clocks greater than 1000mhz are rather unlikely, in which case it can be assumed that Scorpios GPU will have more compute units in order to hit 6TF.



It's clear it will be awhile before we really know how Neo and Scorpio compare with each other in real world gaming scenarios. I feel that the end result differences will eventually manifest into a larger delta between the two than exist between PS4 and XB1. PS4 had a better GPU, and arguably a better memory system setup, but a slightly lower clocked CPU and the same amount of RAM. Scorpio has (based on Neo rumors) a significant GPU advantage and a significant memory bandwidth advantage, while probably (based on info from the motherboard render at E3) having 50% or more RAM, and potentially a significantly more powerful CPU (if it's Zen). There's a real chance that on a component level Scorpio will have a significant advantage in every area - something we really haven't seen in two competing consoles since PS2/Xbox (which where on different architectures, making some comparisons more difficult).
Well, lots of speculation on your side, all best case scenarios as well for Scorpio. The truth is, NEO hardware is not finalized, but at least we have some specs. Knowing whether Scorpio will have more CU's or a Zen CPU is not something we can use to estimate a divide between the two systems as yet, farless saying that it will be huge/significant in every area.

All we're doing right now is taking MS's word for it and comparing 4.2TF against 6TF, we have no idea how MS arrived at 6TF, but we do know how the 4.2TF was arrived at.. AMD has already said there's no 40CU polaris and that RX480 is the top end polaris product, maybe they're bluffing and waiting to unveil RX490 with more CU's, who knows, but I'm not sure why the consoles won't be able to clock polaris 10 beyond 1000Mhz. At reference rx480 is 1120Mhz and 1266 on boost, MS has been known to have huge box consoles, so I don't see how their console won't get to reference clocks. Neo according to current spec is already over 900MHz and normally Sony pushes smaller FF designs, so I don't see how 1000MHz is impossible for either console for that matter.

I think the bigger discussion will be how these consoles evolve during the design process till release, there's quite a few hardware innovations and products both for mobile and desktop platforms that will hit in the next couple of months and early to mid next year, so final products for either NEO or Scorpio may not be as picture perfect to what we esteem them to be at the minute.

One thing we must understand is that NEO and Scorpio are not consoles developed with billions of dollars in R&D+, they're iterative consoles where there's more flexibility in what makes it inside the consoles relative to the latest technologies available at the time or within a 3-6 month window of availability.

How is this thread still getting so much discussion over what is a very generic spec list.



Those who argued that 900p is acceptable will now argue that nothing less than 1080p is acceptable.
I imagine that will happen most certainly. I can already see Digital foundry writing articles on how resolution matters and that higher resolutions coupled with 5-10 fps better is a world of difference as it was in the PS3/360 era. For either scenario, NEO vs Scorpio will make for some very interesting reading and takes ......
 
What happens when a dev decides to release on Scorpio, or Scorpio and PC first with the Xbox One release coming later? I'm sure this will occur a few times. I don't think there's a rule forcing each version of a game to release all at the same time.

This contradicts everything Phil said about Scorpio so far. There won't be a separate Scorpio and XBOX One release, as each disc has to contain the game which then runs on both SKUs, so it's technically not possible. He was very specific about that.
 

AmyS

Member
From the AMD Q2 2016 AMD Earnings Call.

AMD CEO Lisa Su said:
Microsoft also announced their next generation game console codename Project Scorpio for the 2017 holidays. Project Scorpio is designed to be fully compatible with existing Xbox One Software while leveraging AMD's leadership gaming technologies to create more immersive 4K and VR gaming experiences. Project Scorpio is one of the semi custom design wins we communicated previously.

Webcast audio (register with whatever info you want). http://edge.media-server.com/m/p/6mr7pafn/lan/en

Scorpio part is at 7:00 minutes in.

http://ir.amd.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=74093&p=irol-eventDetails&EventId=5231046
 

Proelite

Member
Didn't they said that they won 3 semi custom designs, 1 for this year and 2 for the next?

From themselves at E3 we know that Xbox S and Scorpio are two of these designs... The other is neo, but what about NX?

Nvidia?

Only company with proven mobile and console solutions experience.
 

SEGAvangelist

Gold Member
Didn't they said that they won 3 semi custom designs, 1 for this year and 2 for the next?

From themselves at E3 we know that Xbox S and Scorpio are two of these designs... The other is neo, but what about NX?

I don't think Xbox One S counts in those 3. Neo is probably the one this year with Scorpio and NX next year.
 
That is what I was thinking too.



Nintendo wants to spend a lot on cost? Doesn't sound like them.

Well, I didn't follow the thread, but there was someone allegedly close with Nintendo leaks that posted some stuff about Nintendo getting a sweet deal from Nvidia because Nvidia wanted a way back into the console market. Obviously they want to try and eat all of AMD's lunch if the rumor is to be believed.
 
Nope! It's ~70 GFLOPS difference in X360 favor. ~240 Xenos vs. ~170 RSX.

RSX had higher flop ratings than xenos, but it would never reach in real world performance because of the separate shaders, and other architecture inefficiencies.

But even Xenos number is complete impossible even in theory, the 240 gflops comes from performing a scalar and a vec4 operation at the same time, which their shader units couldn't do.

According to Ms in one of the last gamefest presentations even late titles that really tried to push 360 didn't go further than 94 gflops in real world performance IIRC.

Edit:

This just feels like a huge missed opportunity. Releasing a "monster" of a new console and then tell people its reason d'être is to play XBOX One games but in 4k. This feels like selling a Ferrari with a non-deactivatable 70 mph speed limiter. Especially since Sony does basically exactly the same with PS4 Neo, just earlier, cheaper and not as powerful.

The enthusiasts and tech-fans who'll eventually buy Scorpio are ready for a new generation anyhow.

That's called marketing, they are not going to say that their current box is underpowered. They are going to say it delivers the best graphics ever at 1080p, and the new monster console is to have that fidelity in 4k and VR.

Edit 2:

Unless we get real specs from MS, everyone should take this 6TF most powerful console talk that's a year and a half away with a grain of salt. Currently with leaked specs we can calculate what NEO is, but not so much with MS. The talk of XB1 and how powerful it was was also a thing before official specs got released, then we were treading down the "power of the cloud" road soon after reveal. I don't deny that they can offer a 6TF machine easily in late 2017, but history has shown that MS likes to overpromise a bit when it comes to recent hardware.

I think you are reaching. Ms never outright lied about their specs, not even for recent hardware. They didn't say was going to be a monster before the specs leaked, that was on the devs talking about the devkits.

In fact Ms even tried to improve their specs with the upclock.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
Well, I didn't follow the thread, but there was someone allegedly close with Nintendo leaks that posted some stuff about Nintendo getting a sweet deal from Nvidia because Nvidia wanted a way back into the console market. Obviously they want to try and eat all of AMD's lunch if the rumor is to be believed.

I see. Interesting if true.

But how it is described sounds like hopes and dreams sprinkled with PC fanboy nVidia vs. AMD rhetoric.

Had nVidia conferance or financial reports this year hint to anything like AMD's do?
 
Well, I didn't follow the thread, but there was someone allegedly close with Nintendo leaks that posted some stuff about Nintendo getting a sweet deal from Nvidia because Nvidia wanted a way back into the console market. Obviously they want to try and eat all of AMD's lunch if the rumor is to be believed.

Nintendo didn't get the memo? Time for NVIDIA to screw the final console company. Why would Nintendo even consider this? NVIDIA fucked Microsoft on price. Then fucked Sony on power by lying about the rsx. Theres a reason no console manufacturer works with NVIDIA.
 

AmyS

Member
Didn't they said that they won 3 semi custom designs, 1 for this year and 2 for the next?

From themselves at E3 we know that Xbox S and Scorpio are two of these designs... The other is neo, but what about NX?

Well yeah, the 3 semi-custom design wins were mentioned last year (and started with 2 such design wins back in late 2014) but Sony hasn't formerly announced Neo, even though Andrew House acknowledged its existence as a high-end PS4. AMD won't talk about systems that haven't been revealed, which includes both Neo and NX. Once Sony reveals Neo and Nintendo reveals NX, AMD will be eager to highlight them in an earnings call. Hopefully the next one, for 3rd quarter results.
 
I think Scorpio is just a smart way to force 3rd party devs hands into making UWP games.

Uhhh, what? There is zero UWP requirement for supporting Scorpio, and MS would be hella foolish to even attempt this.

This is simply another performance target that your X1 build will now feature runtime behaviors for.
 
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