You just seem perturbed you can't do the usual GAF dance because the issue isn't so clear-cut in this instance.
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Disney releases Maui costume that lets kids pretend to be Polynesian
- Thread starter Derwind
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You just seem perturbed you can't do the usual GAF dance because the issue isn't so clear-cut in this instance.
Aw hell naw.
We both got nothing to do with that one, that's the Netherlands and Belgium.
Does it make you feel good to find the grey area?
Who are you?
heliosRAzi
Banned
You never said how it's like blackface.
Aw hell naw.
We both got nothing to do with that one, that's the Netherlands.
lol sorry
excelsiorlef
Member
And I realized that was a hasty remark and fleshed out my pov across the thread...
Heh you got one more time. One more thread of you doing this and I will drag you.
It's to be like a character the like in a children's film. Honestly, the blackface thing is fucked up and I totally agree that we shouldn't do it. But you also have to remember that it was used to demoralize and make black people a joke in America. Not everything dark-skinned means the same thing.
People are way too damn sensitive now and everything is blanket banned.
EDIT: I also think that even if the skin wasn't dark, but the fake tattoos were kept, the outrage would still be there.
People are way too damn sensitive now and everything is blanket banned.
EDIT: I also think that even if the skin wasn't dark, but the fake tattoos were kept, the outrage would still be there.
For those interested, this is the costume for the actual main character of Moana, along with an adorable (unofficial) Lilo costume:
There's always a post like this in every "outrage" thread. "Oh, it's really just the white people who are outraged! The affected minorities don't actually care!" It's a patently ridiculous argument to make, because of course there are going to be Polynesians who get offended, as well as Polynesians who don't care. Do you even care what Polynesians think? Have you bothered to check if it offends Polynesians? Let's take a look:
Is Disneys portrayal of Maui, a Polynesian demigod, in Moana culturally insensitive?
Disney's Moana accused of cultural appropriation
There you have it. What actual Polynesians think. You can agree or disagree. As you can see, Polynesians don't even agree on it. But please stop saying shit like, "It's only whites who find it offensive and minorities don't care" when you yourself don't bother to listen to the concerns of those actual minorities.
There's always a post like this in every "outrage" thread. "Oh, it's really just the white people who are outraged! The affected minorities don't actually care!" It's a patently ridiculous argument to make, because of course there are going to be Polynesians who get offended, as well as Polynesians who don't care. Do you even care what Polynesians think? Have you bothered to check if it offends Polynesians? Let's take a look:
Is Disneys portrayal of Maui, a Polynesian demigod, in Moana culturally insensitive?
Disney's Moana accused of cultural appropriation
There you have it. What actual Polynesians think. You can agree or disagree. As you can see, Polynesians don't even agree on it. But please stop saying shit like, "It's only whites who find it offensive and minorities don't care" when you yourself don't bother to listen to the concerns of those actual minorities.
excelsiorlef
Member
Aw hell naw.
We both got nothing to do with that one, that's the Netherlands and Belgium.
Haha, I stand corrected. Sorry! xD
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Good old whitewashing and their weird defenders on the internet.
Your case is an ever shifting mess without any real direction or substance. Maybe its not obtuseness and just frustration?
I feel X is like Y so maybe they should change it?
-How?
Maybe do this or that? Maybe keep the big belly. Skin shouldn't be a defining trait.
- Well it too has issues like 1, 2, 3. Even the big belly. So what should they maybe do?
Well its not my job to come up with perfect solutions, maybe if I was Polynesian it would be more critical for me to do so.
- So you aren't even sure this is a major issue to the group you are knighting for? And if so what an appropriate course of action should be? Or even whether this is factually as bad as you feel it may be?
...Finished off with a subtle jab that maybe anyone disagreeing with you has impure intentions. Because after all, if we can assume a person's intentions may not be pure, al their words become invalid.
Audioboxer
Member
In general I really don't think Disney is some bastion of progress. There's a hell of a lot of shit wrong with Disney. A lot. From content, to treatment of employees/employment opportunities, to lack of diversity in projects. This list is endless.
I think socially though the topic has veered more into debating costumes and kids in general. As I don't really believe anyone in here somehow thinks Disney is going to be the only creator of fictional characters and costumes ever. Even if they are arguably the largest.
At least I've been more interested in debating costumes and how children's minds work in general, than focusing largely on Disney. I had a stint of debating how the costume could be done, due to elements of nudity and children, but that would apply to any skin based costume, not specifically Disney ones.
You seem to be yelling at an outlier. Most of the criticism seems to be around the factual basis of the charges and what if any solutions actually exist then?
For instance this quote, which I have seen quoted in a few articles:
Basically puts the entire Disney business model on trial. Leaving some interesting questions when you take it to its natural endpoint.
"So the magic part of this PoC character is their skin"
"Uhh"
"Like they have magic skin"
"Huh"
"Is it OK to put their skin on for Halloween now like Darth fucking Maul?"
"No, but this is an interesting outlying case where the moral nuances can be usefully debated"
"Outrage culture lol"
"Uhh"
"Like they have magic skin"
"Huh"
"Is it OK to put their skin on for Halloween now like Darth fucking Maul?"
"No, but this is an interesting outlying case where the moral nuances can be usefully debated"
"Outrage culture lol"
You mean you're finally gonna try to pretend you were comprehending from the jump?
Oooh first error. I never said anything about changing this. I said it would be great if the mindset that color being iconic wasn't commonplace. That implies change but I didn't say I knew how to.
Nice try! This was never linked from ANYONE. And it's also why I never gave a conclusive answer. So why was everyone so adamant that I give one?
It isn't my responsibility. It's not even Polynesian persons responsibility. If they don't want to explain why it's offensive they don't have to.
If I said I had a solution that would be one thing but I didn't. You had a crazy moment there. Your problem not mine.
I knew this was an issue ever since the criticism was made towards Maui. But let's not play games here. You and the others were just hurt because of the blackface comparison. You tried to frame this as a desperate need for an solution but guess what, sometimes there isn't one. Something can be problematic and no one can find an immediate solution because minorities are not a hive mind.
Stop playing pretend. You pretend you're advocating for a costume you don't give a damn about just so you can get one up on minority GAFfers. You found the grey area, but you're not slick.
Oooh first error. I never said anything about changing this. I said it would be great if the mindset that color being iconic wasn't commonplace. That implies change but I didn't say I knew how to.
Nice try! This was never linked from ANYONE. And it's also why I never gave a conclusive answer. So why was everyone so adamant that I give one?
It isn't my responsibility. It's not even Polynesian persons responsibility. If they don't want to explain why it's offensive they don't have to.
If I said I had a solution that would be one thing but I didn't. You had a crazy moment there. Your problem not mine.
I knew this was an issue ever since the criticism was made towards Maui. But let's not play games here. You and the others were just hurt because of the blackface comparison. You tried to frame this as a desperate need for an solution but guess what, sometimes there isn't one. Something can be problematic and no one can find an immediate solution because minorities are not a hive mind.
Stop playing pretend. You pretend you're advocating for a costume you don't give a damn about just so you can get one up on minority GAFfers. You found the grey area, but you're not slick.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Acerac
Banned
It's easy to say something bothers you, but at a certain point you have to look for a solution.
It's unfortunate that it reminds many of something that clearly wasn't intended by the creators, but no realistic alternatives have been presented by anyone who thinks it looks to be in poor taste. Disney's best choice for not causing controversy would have been not to make the movie, and I really don't see that as a good option.
So how do we present this as a costume? Have kids going out on Halloween in a grass skirt with parent applied tattoos?
heliosRAzi
Banned
So not even subtle anymore, you are straight up intention fishing? Because it can't be you are just making shit arguments that are being called out after an obvious attention grabbing and loaded first post, no it just HAS to be I and everyone else hates minorities/Polynesians and wanted to get a dig in by asking you to substantiate that. No other possible explanation could exist right?
And of course if that is the case then anything I say has no validity right? I mean otherwise what is the point of going down this path?
Just because people have hitherto offered ridiculous or ineffective solutions to the problem at hand, doesn't mean there isn't a problem.
Monocle
Member
Wrong-colored children are my favorite. Sometimes I go people watching at Disneyland, just for the simple pleasure of seeing how many wrong-colored children I can spot in an hour.
heliosRAzi
Banned
I don't yet have one. In the case of a marketable Disney character representing a nonwhite culture with minimal clothing being the norm, there are a lot of unavoidable pitfalls. They should be observed and discussed, like we're currently trying to do.
I disagree with the decision to mock people pointing out these pitfalls.
Yes i want to hear your intentions because otherwise i can't fathom why you took it this far. You fail to even see where your own bullshit inventions screwed you up in the first place.
You ran with some crappy assumptions and strawman and I just shot them down by showing you exactly where you fucked up. You can't keep whining about an argument that wasn't there in the first place. It never was. Trust me if I had an argument there would be no circles. I don't bullshit.
This whole thing took off because it somehow hurt your feelings that black face got mentioned. So why did you push it this far? Why did you feel the need to run me in circles over some shit that wasn't there to begin with?
Wrong colored children? Like green polka-dotted or plaid children?
Zoe
Member
You said that Tarzan wears less. I posted the first hit on Google Image Search which happens to have as little clothing as the Maui costume, mass produced. You reply with a costume where the kid is wearing more in what looks like what may be a home-made costume.
There's a reason these mass-produced costumes contain skin suits, and it's not because of race.
Acerac
Banned
At a certain point you need to understand that any solution just causes worse problems. Given a situation where all end paths have issues, it does no good to attack an option that, as far as I can see, seems to be trying to treat the subject with as much respect as it can.
Children wearing nothing but grass skirts or see through pants is not going to solve these issues.
I think the biggest issue here is the needed substantiation that this is in fact a major issue to begin with?
If we assume this is a problem though, we immediately are stuck with, now what?
Which is why calls for solutions are coming in because people begin to think more then one step ahead of just identifying. Rightfully so.
If you pull the costume is that really better or worse then just releasing one with a muscle suit?
If you redesign it without any skin color in a clear format, that raises like appropriateness and safety in parts of the country. Larger issues including why only white skin muscle suits are suitable for release? How far reaching and rigid should cultural norms against mainstream costumes that reflect skin tone in some capacity like muscle suits go? Will such restrictions actually be more harmful then their alternatives? Is such a rigid norm even justifiable to begin with?
Audioboxer
Member
I mean kids can go out dressed fairly naked, I've not argued they can't.
The thing is though, most parents are understandably rather conservative and protective of their kids, and what need is there to have your kids wear very little when bodysuits are a thing? I mean the time of the year for one practicality that isn't to do with public decency. The bigger point being the fact kids don't need $800 1:1 replica cosplay like some adults aim for. They just want to loosly dress up and mostly use their imagination. The thing many adults seem to start to lack, lol. Imagination is fun everyone, have some!
We're dealing largely with what are going to be fairly large scale public gatherings, not private parties or Halloween dress up in the family home. So pictures of kids as Tarzan in the home or at specific Halloween parties wearing next to nothing are one thing, but remember there is a bigger scene at Halloween than that (door to door trick or treating, so outside. School parties, so very public. Etc).
The thing is though, most parents are understandably rather conservative and protective of their kids, and what need is there to have your kids wear very little when bodysuits are a thing? I mean the time of the year for one practicality that isn't to do with public decency. The bigger point being the fact kids don't need $800 1:1 replica cosplay like some adults aim for. They just want to loosly dress up and mostly use their imagination. The thing many adults seem to start to lack, lol. Imagination is fun everyone, have some!
We're dealing largely with what are going to be fairly large scale public gatherings, not private parties or Halloween dress up in the family home. So pictures of kids as Tarzan in the home or at specific Halloween parties wearing next to nothing are one thing, but remember there is a bigger scene at Halloween than that (door to door trick or treating, so outside. School parties, so very public. Etc).
WordAssassin
Member
I don't really understand the logic of the quote.
So Disney historically for the past 50+ years has made movies based off fairy tales and fables etc.
Now it's cultural appropriation and only trying to exploit other cultures if they use source material from other cultures.
So should they... not make any movies based on other cultures' fables and legends?
That doesn't seem like a good outcome to me, then it'd just be white people everywhere wouldn't it?
And also how does Disney, a company that employs thousands of people from all walks of life, appropriate a culture? What if they writer or director of Moana was actually Polynesian? Is it still cultural appropriation then since it's under Disney's label? Would it only be ok if that writer/director made the movie on their own studio and only employed people from that culture?
I'm not trying to be a dick here so I hope I'm not coming off as one, I'm genuinely confused about where this line of thinking is supposed to lead. It's like Disney went "Hey you know what we could use, some diversity, let's start making movies about other cultures so that they can be included too and we don't just have a ton of white princesses" and then someone else said "Nope you can't do that those legends aren't yours to adapt" so then Disney just... keeps making movies with only white people? Isn't that also a shitty outcome?
Or is it specifically just talking about the costume, so making the movie is OK but making any kind of merchandise of it is bad because then that's profiting off of another culture? So then does that mean kids don't get to have Moana and Maui dolls either?
I'm so confused.
If you ever feel like dropping the virtue signaling/intention fishing and feel like actually having a conversation of substance, get back to me.
I have no interest in entertaining conversations centered around arguing unfounded accusations thrown at me. Let alone someone who is so delusional they are convinced that any disagreement to their opinions and ideas must be coming from a place of hatred for the people you are speaking about.
If you wanted to talk about this you would have done so instead of taking offense in the first place.
But I take this as you realizing you fucked up. Tbh I dont even blame you. Someone else got the shit started in the first place. Which I did try to tell you originally.
Even if it's not from you, others have been blatantly trolling and saying I didn't have an argument yet too dinghy to realize why. Magically they disappeared following a poster showing Polynesians were expressing their opinions whether they agreed or not. Interesting.
If you're not part of that then good. I apologize for grouping you.
Ganzlinger
Member
lol it's a creepy costume. But it's inoffensive.
Bear Force One
Banned
OUTRAGE!!!
Nah this is them funding a Polynesian story with a female main character. It's a great thing.
The tattoos are really cool. As a kid I would probably love a character wearong a ton of tattoos like that. Disney wants to allow the kids to dress up and be that character, an essential part of any halloween costumes.
Obviously a body suit is the answer..now what skin do we use... Why would it be white, that would be entirely stupid. Clear makes little production sense. Why back away from the color of the skin, it should be brown like the characters thats beautiful.
Seems logical to me. As a kid, i probably would have tried to tan to match the costume, i loved trying to authentically be characters. Maybe theres some insensitivity in there, but I can't worry much about it. I think its cool kids aspire to be that character
If there is an issue, the outrage would have to start at the beginning of creating this movie I would think. Disney turning culture into fun "is it ethical?", would have to be the real question
Obviously a body suit is the answer..now what skin do we use... Why would it be white, that would be entirely stupid. Clear makes little production sense. Why back away from the color of the skin, it should be brown like the characters thats beautiful.
Seems logical to me. As a kid, i probably would have tried to tan to match the costume, i loved trying to authentically be characters. Maybe theres some insensitivity in there, but I can't worry much about it. I think its cool kids aspire to be that character
If there is an issue, the outrage would have to start at the beginning of creating this movie I would think. Disney turning culture into fun "is it ethical?", would have to be the real question
Audioboxer
Member
Just out of interest are you sure you'd really give a shit about that, or is that your adult brain projecting into the past to say the "authenticity" you now cherish would be there when you had your kid brain?
Genuinely curious, as I honestly haven't heard or read of any kids, as in it coming from the kids mouth, say they want to hit the sunbeds/beach to "prepare" for Halloween....
Yes I know kids can display attention to detail, but largely speaking most wouldn't be seeking out complex "solutions" (getting a tan?) to a situation where putting on a costume is really the make believe they seek.
TwEE-N-Toast
Banned
Everybody is having trouble following what you are trying to say and you're lashing out, accusing folks of this and that. The thread is not about you so don't take it so personally.
It wasn't me that took the conversation down the path of virtue signaling and intention fishing.
Taking this position with me for calling out the nonsense you continually ramped up at me is like slapping me while I am in the middle of talking to you. Then slapping me harder when I question the slapping,. Then telling me that my aversion to the slapping is a reflection of my guilt. That I shouldn't take offense at being slapped and to just ignore the slapping if I want to talk to you. Only after all that offering a minor apology that perhaps you maybe jumped to conclusions and acted hastily. Like some abusive spouse trying to reconcile their actions while trying to avoid deeper admissions of guilt.
Remaining lost on the idea that maybe slapping someone isn't the right way to communicate and that if you made an error in assumption slapping me, maybe that could hold true elsewhere?
If the thread isn't about me, stop complaining about what I'm doing and get back on topic.
You can make analogies like this but it was so hard to comprehend why the costume reminds me (or anyone else who said so) of blackface?
I think when someone begins to feel or witness what they see as someone/something being unfairly targeted or disrupting the thread by another poster, people are in their rights to respond to it temporarily no? I mean isn't that why you were threatening to "drag" someone?
Or should you just of ignored it and "stayed on topic?"
It's a low hanging fruit analogy that begins to crack on fairly simple analysis.
Which was where almost all of the criticisms of that particular statement directed at you read on their face to be stemming from.
The inquiry of further substantiation stems from people(myself amongst them) unable to reconcile how a person is continuing to hold that analogy as highly credible after getting past initial emotional reactions? Especially in the face of some of the solid subsequent responses about the analogy. I.E. in light of all that, what are your more empirical reasons or are they mostly just still stemming from that initial emotion? And if it wasn't initial emotional reaction then what was it? Enlighten and help me?
This is a costume that seems to have nothing but problematic alternatives. Sure, someone can take the lazy approach and just say its problematic, point to some people(maybe representative of a significant portion of the Polynesian population, maybe not) that think it is for various reasons and call it a day.
But is that it? Is that really the extent of a person's advocacy? I'll avoid commenting on how lazy and empty that comes across because for those wanting to actually delve into this, if we assume this is problematic, the follow up question is unavoidable: now what???
Thelonelykoopa
Member
They would become a god.
An inscribed Polynesian
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