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[UnemployedVillain]

That's my very first post in here, followed by people assuming I had a magical solution they would be satisfied with and no matter how many times I repeated myself, I was met with disagreement. I hate that skin color is often an identifiable trait to many. It would be great to see this character have a costume without their skin color being considered the iconic part as well.

It's not. It's literally the case of them taking a bulky character with body tattoos and realizing a fake muscle suit was the only reasonable and practical way to portray that, as evidenced by the dozens of shirtless characters in the past that have had muscle suits. It's not like it's accompanied with brown face paint. You're the one making the skin color "iconic"

 

[heliosRAzi]

That's my very first post in here, followed by people assuming I had a magical solution they would be satisfied with and no matter how many times I repeated myself, I was met with disagreement. I hate that skin color is often an identifiable trait to many. It would be great to see this character have a costume without their skin color being considered the iconic part as well.

I don't think people are considering the skin color to be iconic. The tattoos are iconic. But if they changed the skin tone, you run into other problems.

 

[ishibear]

I'm attacking your silly use of the blackface argument - not playing down the blackface topic.

It's pretty clear, but you are sure desperately trying to change the topic.

So you were just trying to be clever then right? It didn't work.

What a waste of time.

 

[Nepenthe]

There is no win with this character we have been through this

1. Remove skin colour its bad
2. Now we have to remove the tattoos because cultural appropriation.
3. Better get rid of the necklace and traditional dress as well
4. We now have no costume
5. Now people are calling Disney racist because they have costumes for white characters but not reppin Polynesians.

There is no way to dress up as this character appropriatetly if we follow the internets "racial rules"

The Internet has a lot of conflicting ideas with regards to cultural appropriation and racial identity. I don't think that means don't do the costume at all because debate exists. It means base your costume around a good, defensible argument. Now, again, I think the inflatable suit is such an idea, mainly because I don't see it as any different from wrestling suits. What I'm mainly arguing against is that an inflatable suit would be the only way possible for a kid to play Maui.

Also, I don't understand why- in the case that Disney made the choice to get rid of the Maui costume- that they wouldn't have Polynesian representation because girls can still dress up as Moana. After all, Disney has a habit of trending only towards officially releasing the girl characters' costumes for these women/princess driven films anyway.

You are just tasked with making good points, less you end up stuck making bad ones. Like you have been doing...

People asked me about other costume ideas. I was discussing that. If I were to have taken into consideration school settings, I would argued from that stipulation from the outset.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Also, I don't understand why- in the case that Disney made the choice to get rid of the Maui costume- that they wouldn't have Polynesian representation because girls can still dress up as Moana. After all, Disney has a habit of trending only towards officially releasing the girl characters' costumes for these women/princess driven films anyway.

I don't see little boys wanting to dress up like the female character

 

[Lonewolf_92]

They did the same thing with Disney's Hercules Costume only with white skin (and more poorly made).

 

[Cagey]

I'm attacking your silly use of the blackface argument - not playing down the blackface topic.

It's pretty clear, but you are sure desperately trying to change the topic.

That poster thought they had a gotcha "aha, you're kinda racist!" argument winning moment. That's all. Just move on.

 

[PatThePassive]

Disney releases Maui costume that lets kids pretend to be Polynesian character.

Fixed the title, This being acceptable is up to debate but that title is leading people to make up their mind before reading anything.

 

[Nepenthe]

I don't see little boys wanting to dress up like the female character

That actually has nothing to do with Disney being able to achieve Polynesian representation regardless.

 

[ishibear]

You literally came into this thread comparing this to blackface.

It is similar tho? I wasn't arguing this was IN FACT black face. But I actually thought of Michionne when I first saw it.

This is why people throw around outrage culture accusations. You assume I was calling this that but I said it reminds me of it. I fully understand things aren't always black and white. There was never any hostility or anything.

I think the mere mention of blackface rubbed some the wrong way.

But that's a topic for another day.

It's not. It's literally the case of them taking a bulky character with body tattoos and realizing a fake muscle suit was the only reasonable and practical way to portray that, as evidenced by the dozens of shirtless characters in the past that have had muscle suits. It's not like it's accompanied with brown face paint. You're the one making the skin color "iconic"

I see that.

I don't think people are considering the skin color to be iconic. The tattoos are iconic. But if they changed the skin tone, you run into other problems.

I see this as well.

 

[ArkkAngel007]

The Internet has a lot of conflicting ideas with regards to cultural appropriation and racial identity. I don't think that means don't do the costume at all because debate exists. It means base your costume around a good, defensible argument. Now, again, I think the inflatable suit is such an idea, mainly because I don't see it as any different from wrestling suits. What I'm mainly arguing against is that an inflatable suit would be the only way possible for a kid to play Maui.

Also, I don't understand why- in the case that Disney made the choice to get rid of the Maui costume- that they wouldn't have Polynesian representation because girls can still dress up as Moana. After all, Disney has a habit of trending only towards officially releasing the girl characters' costumes for these women/princess driven films anyway.

But then you're cutting out boys having that character because of thing that don't apply to them? Or girls who would rather be Maui?

Sure there's still representation, but not equal representation.

 

[Jonm1010]

The Internet has a lot of conflicting ideas with regards to cultural appropriation and racial identity. I don't think that means don't do the costume at all because debate exists. It means base your costume around a good, defensible argument. Now, again, I think the inflatable suit is such an idea, mainly because I don't see it as any different from wrestling suits. What I'm mainly arguing against is that an inflatable suit would be the only way possible for a kid to play Maui.

Also, I don't understand why- in the case that Disney made the choice to get rid of the Maui costume- that they wouldn't have Polynesian representation because girls can still dress up as Moanna. After all, Disney has a habit of trending only towards officially releasing the girl characters' costumes for these women/princess driven films anyway.

In terms of Disney being a company that is needing to make a mass producible costume that won't just be usable in niche regions? Yeah, so far no good alternatives have arisen by those outraged by this.

Setting aside of course whether this is even something to be outraged about to begin with.

 

[ishibear]

That poster thought they had a gotcha "aha, you're kinda racist!" argument winning moment. That's all. Just move on.

Cagey you need to get over your hate boner for me.

So tired of you following me. Especially since you're always so wrong.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

That actually has nothing to do with Disney being able to achieve Polynesian representation regardless.

I don't think the solution to representation is to further diminish it. Especially when their representation of said culture amounts to 2 characters out of hundreds

 

[Nepenthe]

But then you're cutting out boys having that character because of thing that don't apply to them? Or girls who would rather be Maui?

Gender representation is a separate issue from ethnic representation (and one I agree is an issue). Most Disney licensed costumes for their princess films actually cut out the male characters in the first place unless their designs are as significantly as iconic as the women's. Like, there are no Hans or Kristoff costumes for their Frozen section, for example. But this doesn't mean without these costumes there's suddenly no Nordic representation.

 

[Discotheque]

does it come with a WWE contract?

Comes with an official birth certificate declaring you are a cousin of the rock uce

 

[Jonm1010]

It is similar tho? I wasn't arguing this was IN FACT black face. But I actually thought of Michionne when I first saw it.

This is why people throw around outrage culture accusations. You assume I was calling this that but I said it reminds me of it. I fully understand things aren't always black and white. There was never any hostility or anything.

I think the mere mention of blackface rubbed some the wrong way.

But that's a topic for another day.



I see that.



I see this as well.

Misuse of terms without substantiation does tend to rub people the wrong way, yeah.

And you have not substantiated why this is like blackface actually. You just put question marks behind question begging and go around making assertions.

 

[heliosRAzi]

It is similar tho? I wasn't arguing this was IN FACT black face. But I actually thought of Michionne when I first saw it.

How is it similar to black face?

 

[ishibear]

Misuse of terms without substantiation does tend to rub people the wrong way, yeah.

And you have not substantiated why this is like blackface actually. You just put question marks behind question begging and go around making assertions.

Did I not just say what it reminded me of?

I think you like being purposefully obtuse.

 

[Jonm1010]

Did I not just say what it reminded me of?

I think you like being purposefully obtuse.

Because something "feels" some way to you is not actually verifying said thing is in fact the thing you feel it is..

 

[ishibear]

Because something "feels" some way to you is not actually verifying said thing is in fact the thing you feel it is..

OMG

I'm out.

 

[Schlorgan]

its my firm understanding that unless you are that specific race/ethnicity, you have no right to be offended for them

But most of the internet is white people getting offended for other ethnicities over things that ethnicity couldn't care less about.

Spoiler

It's fun to watch if nothing else.

 

[Aske]

I'd say the costume's fine, but becomes problematic if a wrong-coloured child wears it. Its existence will draw attention to racially insensitive parents, but I don't see the harm in a racially-specific costume.

I think it's good that Disney is releasing ethnically diverse costumes. Maybe there should be an ethnicity warning on the packaging to help parents avoid embarrassment.

 

[Jonm1010]

OMG

I'm out.

Haha, ok. But it was you that used those "feelings" to go on a multi page diatribe trying to justify being offended on behalf of Polynesians by this.

I'd say the costume's fine, but becomes problematic if a wrong-coloured child wears it. Its existence will draw attention to racially insensitive parents, but I don't see the harm in a racially-specific costume.

I think it's good that Disney is releasing ethnically diverse costumes. Maybe there should be an ethnicity warning on the packaging to help parents avoid embarrassment.

I love this thread lol.

 

[Audioboxer]

It is similar tho? I wasn't arguing this was IN FACT black face. But I actually thought of Michionne when I first saw it.

This is why people throw around outrage culture accusations. You assume I was calling this that but I said it reminds me of it. I fully understand things aren't always black and white. There was never any hostility or anything.

I think the mere mention of blackface rubbed some the wrong way.

But that's a topic for another day.



I see that.



I see this as well.

Not really, blackface literally has the intent to be "provocative" or simply downright racist (usually if not always the later). It is something adults have done, and will do, largely for either of those two reasons. Blackface is not something that children are doing and 99.9% of children do not have sinister intent when wanting a halloween costume for make believe. Adults however can be assholes, shitlords and drama makers.

Funnily enough speaking of Michonne, a girl, might I say a white girl, in my work dressed up as her for a work Halloween party. No one batted an eyelid, and no, she did not paint her face black. If we're talking about TWD Michonne. Why did she do it? Because she's a huge fan of TWD and wanting to wield a fake sword. Plus, fun. Adults can have fun on Halloween as well! However kids are in a different realm largely for the reasons I've detailed over many pages. Primarily them not being fully developed in the brain and not viewing the world as adults do (for the most part).

 

[ArkkAngel007]

Gender representation is a separate issue from ethnic representation (and one I agree is an issue). Most Disney licensed costumes for their princess films actually cut out the male characters in the first place unless their designs are as significantly as iconic as the women's. Like, there are no Hans or Kristoff costumes for their Frozen section, for example. But this doesn't mean without these costumes there's suddenly no Nordic representation.

There's definitely a Kristoff costume,though it may no longer be in active production and updated like Anna, Elsa, and Olaf.

And while I agree its mainly a separate issue, itso a huge cut to Polynesian representation that saying the very embodiment of said culture and people is taboo because not that it's an inappropriate representation of the figure and is offensive, but that a white boy or girl may love the character enough to be them, bodysuit and all.

And that just seems silly.

 

[PeregrinSe7en]

This is the thread people will point to when they talk about outrage culture.

EXACTLY THIS

shame on some people itt

 

[Nepenthe]

There's definitely a Kristoff costume,though it may no longer be in active production and updated like Anna, Elsa, and Olaf.

And while I agree its mainly a separate issue, itso a huge cut to Polynesian representation that saying the very embodiment of said culture and people is taboo because not that it's an inappropriate representation of the figure and is offensive, but that a white boy or girl may love the character enough to be them, bodysuit and all.

And that just seems silly.

I couldn't even find an Olaf costume, which you think would still be big (note that I'm looking at the online Disney store to guarantee officially licensed products currently available, so my focus is limited.)

Just as well, I agree. Like, cutting half of the viable characters that we know of from being a costume is a significantly bigger blow than it would be otherwise due to the overwhelming lack of said characters otherwise.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Haha, ok. But it was you that used those "feelings" to go on a multi page diatribe trying to justify being offended on behalf of Polynesians by this.


I love this thread lol.

You didn't bold the best part.

Maybe there should be an ethnicity warning on the packaging to help parents avoid embarrassment.

 

[Audioboxer]

You didn't bold the best part.

Jeez I missed that post.

Maybe GAF needs a warning that when you click 'submit reply' whatever you have typed up cannot be undone (you'll be quoted in seconds so what's an edit button? lol).

 

[Messofanego]

Not really, blackface literally has the intent to be "provocative" or simply downright racist (usually if not always the later). It is something adults have done, and will do, largely for either of those two reasons. Blackface is not something that children are doing and 99.9% of children do not have sinister intent when wanting a halloween costume for make believe. Adults however can be assholes, shitlords and drama makers.

Funnily enough speaking of Michonne, a girl, might I say a white girl, in my work dressed up as her for a work Halloween party. No one batted an eyelid, and no, she did not paint her face black. If we're talking about TWD Michonne. Why did she do it? Because she's a huge fan of TWD and wanting to wield a fake sword. Plus, fun. Adults can have fun on Halloween as well! However kids are in a different realm largely for the reasons I've detailed over many pages. Primarily them not being fully developed in the brain and not viewing the world as adults do (for the most part).

Kids don't get to be absolved because they're not having malicious intent with participating in racist practices and kids absolutely do blackface but are ignorant of the history.

They would need to be taught that blackface isn't just some Halloween/similar festivity fun but has a pretty bad history.

 

[WickedLaharl]

That poster thought they had a gotcha "aha, you're kinda racist!" argument winning moment. That's all. Just move on.

Yeah dude has failed so spectacularly it's actually amusing.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Maybe there should be an ethnicity warning on the packaging to help parents avoid embarrassment.

Spoiler

I know it's not quite the same, but lol

 

[entremet]

I always found the whole offended for another group's sake as extremely paternalistic and condescending. I'm talking about ethnic groups specifically.

Almost as though the group's opinion, which should be held in primacy, isn't being considered.

 

[ishibear]

Haha, ok. But it was you that used those "feelings" to go on a multi page diatribe trying to justify being offended on behalf of Polynesians by this.

You invented that. I spent pages defending myself in here and for what? For people who don't give a damn but just wanted me to run around in circles? Well I did, but it won't happen again.

It's not wrong to take other people's concerns into consideration. It's not wrong to sympathize with another culture. What's wrong is being played like a fool...

 

[Schlorgan]

I always found the whole offended for another group's sake as extremely paternalistic and condescending. I'm talking about ethnic groups specifically.

Almost as though the group's opinion, which should be held in primacy, isn't being considered.

"They can't be offended for themselves, so we have to do it for them!"

 

[Trouble]

I'd say the costume's fine, but becomes problematic if a wrong-coloured child wears it. Its existence will draw attention to racially insensitive parents, but I don't see the harm in a racially-specific costume.

I think it's good that Disney is releasing ethnically diverse costumes. Maybe there should be an ethnicity warning on the packaging to help parents avoid embarrassment.

 

[FallingEdge]

Yeah dude has failed so spectacularly it's actually amusing.

For real lol.

You invented that. I spent pages defending myself in here and for what? For people who don't give a damn but just wanted me to run around in circles? Well I did, but it won't happen again.

I thought you were out, bruh.

 

[Jonm1010]

Kids don't get to be absolved because they're not having malicious intent with participating in racist practices and kids absolutely do blackface but are ignorant of the history.

They would need to be taught that blackface isn't just some Halloween/similar festivity fun but has a pretty bad history.

Wait, I get the whole, "yeah, probably shouldn't let your kid dress in blackface" but to imply this costume is on the same level by reaching for this comparison? That the kids, possibly toddlers or well below an age of reasonable comprehension, are by default culpable to some degree?

This thread, my god lol!

 

[Audioboxer]

Kids don't get to be absolved because they're not having malicious intent with participating in racist practices and kids absolutely do blackface but are ignorant of the history.

They would need to be taught that blackface isn't just some Halloween/similar festivity fun but has a pretty bad history.

Well yikes, I didn't think there would be any kids doing it. I mean I'd put that on the parents more than anything to be honest. The flawed side of kids not being fully developed is they don't always comprehend cause/effect and understand complex social/political issues. Which is where as a sane and well rounded parent you're suppose to be there to nudge them in the right direction.

To be fair though I think with that post you quoted and every other I've made I've made a decent account of explaining myself and not once have I ever said blackface is acceptable. All I've tried to do is suggest comparing this topic/costume to blackface is reaching to say the least.

 

[kame-sennin]

Racists on gaf are having a blast today.

 

[Jonm1010]

You invented that. I spent pages defending myself in here and for what? For people who don't give a damn but just wanted me to run around in circles? Well I did, but it won't happen again.

Defending assertions and arguments you haven't been able to make a reasonable case for.

So why is this similar?

Racists on gaf are having a blast today.

We're going to that well now? Can't just be valid disagreement and annoyance at absurdist arguments who's proponents are demanding to be taken legitimately but can't manage to make a reasonable, defensible case.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Kids don't get to be absolved because they're not having malicious intent with participating in racist practices and kids absolutely do blackface but are ignorant of the history.

They would need to be taught that blackface isn't just some Halloween/similar festivity fun but has a pretty bad history.

Isn't that from Denmark or Sweden where they don't really have the same history that America and it's more of a celebration of Santa's helper, Zwarte Piet?

 

[More_Badass]

Kids don't get to be absolved because they're not having malicious intent with participating in racist practices and kids absolutely do blackface but are ignorant of the history.

They would need to be taught that blackface isn't just some Halloween/similar festivity fun but has a pretty bad history.

That's on the parents, not the kids. There's nothing to absolve the kids of, the fault rests on the parents IMO in that particular situation

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

does it come with a WWE contract?

I appreciated this.

 

[Nepenthe]

Isn't that from Denmark or Sweden where they don't really have the same history that America and it's more of a celebration of Santa's helper, Zwarte Piet?

Please don't defend Zwarte Piet blackface because these countries weren't the hotbed of slavery America was (although remember that different history =/= egalitarian history), especially when black Danish and Swedes have protested it on historical grounds anyway. =/

 

[ishibear]

Defending assertions and arguments you haven't been able to make a reasonable case for.

So why is this similar?

I know I said I was leaving, but I'm proud so I'll say this.

I have made my case in here. I have done it multiple times. But what i see is people being purposefully obtuse and enjoying it.

It all makes sense.

 

[Audioboxer]

Isn't that from Denmark or Sweden where they don't really have the same history that America and it's more of a celebration of Santa's helper, Zwarte Piet?

Tried to Google

It also turns up every January 6 in Germany, on Three Kings Day, when Catholic children across Germany dress up as the three Magi and go door to door singing songs and collecting money for charity. One of them traditionally darkens their face to represent Melchior. In neighboring Holland, Zwarte Piet, a figure typically portrayed by an actor wearing blackface make-up, turns up around Christmas time as the helper of Sinterklaas.

http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-anglicism-of-the-year-blackfacing/a-18216479

I mean tradition or Religion ain't no excuse, but it doesn't appear on face value to be kids going out as "blackface" for Halloween. Still as I just said there's no need for it, and tradition and/or Religion are never blanket acceptable reasons for something.

 

[Christopher]

It's also sad this thread has more replies than the Manhattan explosion...

 

[heliosRAzi]

Tried to Google



http://www.dw.com/en/germanys-anglicism-of-the-year-blackfacing/a-18216479

I mean tradition or Religion ain't no excuse, but it doesn't appear on face value to be kids going out as "blackface" for Halloween. Still as I just said there's no need for it, and tradition and/or Religion are never blanket acceptable reasons for something.

I can dig it.