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[jorma]

Jesus Christ hanging from a misshapen breadstick.

I'm white.

White people have historically treated nonwhite people like costumes. Like animals. Like fictional characters. Like subhumans.

The vast majority of nonwhite people aren't OK with it. Look it up. Read opinions. Read historical accounts.

As a white person, when the majority of nonwhite people say they have a problem with something, I don't fucking get to say "so?"

You don't get to be outraged on behalf of polynesians.
And i'm guessing that if they do find it offensive, it's not going to be the skin colour, but rather the "cosplaying a god" part they find distasteful.

But probably not even that, i mean it's not like i lose my shit everytime an american dresses up as Thor for halloween. I mean i might slap him around a bit for sure and tell him that "Thor has red hair you idiot, and what the fuck is up with those dumb ass wings on your helmet!", but that's about the extent of my outrage in those cases. No big deal.

 

[ishibear]

That's not outrage but what parts of the SU fanbase are doing is just plain bullying, harassing and abusing people.

Being in the internet and acting like an expert for Polynesian culture and people and turning them into black people, so you can do that blackface accuse that is modern outrage culture, because you aren't really interested in improving or fixing the situation but you just want to feel morally superior over other people.

I didn't but nice trying to gag other people.

But you did.

People make false equivalencies on here all the time but the similarities to black face isn't one of them.

Keep pretending I'm the one terrorizing others. I'm engaging in the conversation. You're trying to stir up conflict and I'm calling you on it.

 

[Acerac]

You...you guys realize that you can cosplay as characters of a different race without painting yourself to be that race, right? Or am I lost on some elaborate GAF joke? (Please don't fucking paint yourself to be another race.)

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/ce/85/a2/ce85a26d592d2ac498540c4365e488f5.jpg[IMG]

In the case of this specific costume, it's like an inflatable suit, like these wrestling ones which tend to be white. I don't have an issue with it on that principle, and feel like if there would be a problem with Maui's it would already be inherent to Maui's original character design in the first place.[/QUOTE]

We all get this, how would you have made the costume without using skin color?

Note that if it was clear with tattoos it wouldn't be the same costume, and it would leave kids running around essentially in their underpants. Unless you have an example that proves otherwise pretty sure the costume would just look like shit in general if it were clear, and you can forget about it being any sort of muscle suit. For what it's worth even costumes of Thomas the Tank Engine get muscles, I think it makes sense that a polynesian god gets one.

This ain't Superman who wears a full body suit, this is a god who wears a grass skirt and tattoos. Their other choice would be to not make the costume at all and I fail to see how that is any better...

 

[Zoe]

You...you guys realize that you can cosplay as characters of a different race without painting yourself to be that race, right? Or am I lost on some elaborate GAF joke? (Please don't fucking paint yourself to be another race.)

In the case of this specific costume, it's like an inflatable suit, like these wrestling ones which tend to be white. I don't have an issue with it on that principle, and feel like if there would be a problem with Maui's it would already be inherent to Maui's original character design in the first place.

The controversy isn't about anybody painting their face. Nobody's even worn the costume yet.

The controversy originated from the color of the fabric.

 

[Trouble]

Ya'll should probably wait and see if a large number of Maui people are actually offended before you get offended on their behalf. Not everyone is so weak and insecure that some kids wearing a cheap Halloween costume is going to destroy their culture lolol

It could be like that protest at some Boston art museum holding a kimono day, and some protesters started ranting about something something white people wearing kimonos = colonization and yellowface... rofl Then some old Japanese ladies and Japanese language teachers did a counter protest.

I remember watching some interviews with actual Japanese people in Japan and they were absolutely baffled by the protest. They don't give a fuck who wears a kimono, it isn't the least bit offensive to them.

 

[PdotMichael]

But you did.

People make false equivalencies on here all the time but the similarities to black face isn't one of them.

Keep pretending I'm the one terrorizing others. I'm engaging in the conversation. You're trying to stir up conflict and I'm calling you on it.

So bold the part where I claim that blackface isn't a legitimate concern.

What you did is the outrange culture version of the Godwin's law where everything is at some point blackface.

 

[Nepenthe]

We all get this, how would you have made the costume without using skin color?

Note that if it was clear with tattoos it wouldn't be the same costume, and it would leave kids running around essentially in their underpants. Unless you have an example that proves otherwise pretty sure the costume would just look like shit in general if it were clear.

This ain't Superman who wears a full body suit, this is a god who wears a grass skirt and tattoos. Their other choice would be to not make the costume at all and I fail to see how that is any better...

The Tattoos, club, grass skirt, necklace, and hair are all defining features of Maui's look. You could get away with cosplaying as him without painting yourself. Hell, people of all races have been playing Tarzan for Halloween for years and he wears even less.

 

[Zhutchka]

Darkening skin for a Halloween costume = no

It's one fucking rule, white people.

How about making an effort to understand the underlying issues instead, so you could judge for yourself when and why it's not a good idea and when and why it actually doesn't matter. Wouldn't that be a better idea for "white people" than lazily applying some stigma-reinforcing shorthand rule?

 

[ArkkAngel007]

Can it be considered black face still if it's a kids costume of someone they love or idolize in this case? This isn't a parodying performance. This isn't a substitution. There's no mocking or any other ill intent.

I think there's reaching here, and making the mistake that young children have the same intent as an adult white male. I mean, haven't we had other bodysuits in children costumes in the past? What differs now, except that it's a Disney property?

It's for kids to be their new Disney hero. That is it. It's honestly a but sickening that people are actually encouraging barriers in something like this.

Edit: Before the strawman drops, that isn't to say black face isn't an issue, and I probably wouldn't be as comfortable with an adult costume of the same design as they are capable of having the ill and insincere intentions that fuel that issue. I just don't think that applies for kids in this case.

 

[Acerac]

The Tattoos, club, grass skirt, necklace, and hair are all defining features of Maui's look. You could get away with cosplaying as him without painting yourself. Hell, people of all races have been playing Tarzan for Halloween for years and he wears even less.

So give kids a grass skirt and a necklace to go out with on Halloween?

Somebody lives in a warm climate.

Like this one?

http://images.halloweencostumes.com/products/9603/1-2/toddler-tarzan-costume.jpg[img][/QUOTE]

It's really not cool to have kids running around with nothing on nowadays.

 

[Zoe]

The Tattoos, club, grass skirt, necklace, and hair are all defining features of Maui's look. You could get away with cosplaying as him without painting yourself. Hell, people of all races have been playing Tarzan for Halloween for years and he wears even less.

Like this one?

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Can it be considered black face still if it's a kids costume of someone they love or idolize in this case? This isn't a parodying performance. This isn't a substitution. There's no mocking or any other ill intent.

I think there's reaching here, and making the mistake that young children have the same intent as an adult white male. I mean, haven't we had other bodysuits in children costumes in the past? What differs now, except that it's a Disney property?

It's for kids to be their new Disney hero. That is it. It's honestly a but sickening that people are actually encouraging barriers in something like this.

Blackface is painting on a minority's skin tone, which obviously has a history involving a time when white people would play minorities because they weren't allowed to play themselves. This is literally just a body/muscle suit for an extremely bulky character that had to be some skin tone, and sure as fuck would have been way more offensive if it was anything, but the tone of the character in question. Not to mention because he is heavily tatted, it would have been difficult not having the body suit

 

[ishibear]

So bold the part where I claim that blackface isn't a legitimate concern.

What you did is the outrange culture version of the Godwin's law where everything is at some point blackface.

Your attempt at damage control is weak.

 

[krang]

You...you guys realize that you can cosplay as characters of a different race without painting yourself to be that race, right? Or am I lost on some elaborate GAF joke? (Please don't fucking paint yourself to be another race.)

In the case of this specific costume, it's like an inflatable suit, like these wrestling ones which tend to be white. I don't have an issue with it on that principle, and feel like if there would be a problem with Maui's it would already be inherent to Maui's original character design in the first place.

But how would you do that on a character whose defining feature is his all-over tattoos, without putting small children into uncomfortably see-through material?

 

[Jonm1010]

The Tattoos, club, grass skirt, necklace, and hair are all defining features of Maui's look. You could get away with cosplaying as him without painting yourself. Hell, people of all races have been playing Tarzan for Halloween for years and he wears even less.

We are talking 5-10 year old kids and a mass produced product by Disney to represent their product.

..Not me and my gorgeous adult body allowing the general populous a rare public chance to see its full glory through a cosplay.

 

[Nepenthe]

So give kids a grass skirt and a necklace to go out with on Halloween?

Somebody lives in a warm climate.

I do indeed.

(Hint: You will notice I said the inflatable suit is okay. I am now discussing the tangents being implied regarding changing your skin color in general.)

Like this one?

And like this one.

 

[PdotMichael]

Your attempt at damage control is weak.

Damage control?

You still failed to prove your accuse that I put blackface into the unjustified outrage category.

 

[Jonm1010]

Your attempt at damage control is weak.

He isn't damage controlling. He is asking you substantiate your accusations.

Accusations are empty without proof. You have none.

 

[Boem]

The Tattoos, club, grass skirt, necklace, and hair are all defining features of Maui's look. You could get away with cosplaying as him without painting yourself. Hell, people of all races have been playing Tarzan for Halloween for years and he wears even less.

Again, why shouldn't a dark skinned body suit be allowed? White skinned body suits are apparently okay - they've been around for ages and I've never heard outrage over that. If we decide we have to live in a world where only white skinned body suits are okay, isn't that the far more racist solution? What about non-white kids who want to wear a body suit like that for halloween? Should we just force them to wear the white skin suits because apparently giving them the option to wear a suit that matches their own skin tone (not to mention the character they're trying to portray) is too offensive?

Banning merchandise based on non-white characters aimed at non-white kids seems to me to be far more offensive and damaging. This entire 'controversy' is viewed through a white person's lens - one who supposes that every movie is created solely by white people, that merchandise like this is aimed solely at white kids.

It's a movie about a specific culture, voiced by people of that specific culture (possibly written/animated by non-white people as well - I don't know enough about the movie to say for sure, although it's shocking to me that everyone here automatically assumes that this was a decision made by 'the white people', as if non-white people can't play a role in the entertainment industry like this), and the promo pic attached to this product shows a dark-skinned girl wearing the costume.

Perhaps, and I know this is a shocking and unusual thought to have for some, this product isn't necessarily aimed at white children.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

And like this one.

You honestly can't see why some parents wouldn't want their kids going out wearing just a grass skirt? Especially in the middle of fall? I'm not even sure how we got into the discussion of skin painting for costumes. There's already no argument that it's a no-no, outside of fictional character colors (like the Navi from Avatar or the Hulk)

 

[ishibear]

Like this one?

I get what you're implying but is it really so unreasonable for some to be iffy about the skin tone?

I don't think there's a simple answer here but if Polynesians find this offensive, I can't with a good conscious say "well fuck that I disagree".

 

[Mango The Magician]

They could have made the skin parts clear, but they probably thought it'd be hard to sell that costume as being a costume for Maui, so they didn't. If any part of it can be considered racist or offensive it certainly wasn't intentional.

 

[NCR Redslayer]

But how would you do that on a character whose defining feature is his all-over tattoos, without putting small children into uncomfortably see-through material?

This is like the worst kind of question for OT:
A question without a good guy or bad guy. Or without a right or wrong answer.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

They could have made the skin parts clear, but they probably thought it'd be hard to sell that costume as being a costume for Maui, so they didn't. If any part of it can be considered racist or offensive it certainly wasn't intentional.

unless you've got the body mass of immortan joe, I don't think a clear muscle suit would look good.

 

[Zoe]

And like this one.

Now which of the three would actually be allowed in school?

(And neither of those are "wearing less" than the costume in question)

It's cool if you live in some hippie utopia, but most of us live in places where it's considered inappropriate for school-aged children to run around bare-chested in grass skirts.

 

[Amon37]

The shit the Internet outrages over, lol.

 

[FallingEdge]

Where's the outrage over sumo wrestling costumes?

white people don't care about that

 

[Trouble]

white people don't care about that

Some do, apparently.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/02/canada-sumo-suits_n_522877.html

 

[ishibear]

Damage control?

You still failed to prove your accuse that I put blackface into the unjustified outrage category.

I did bold it. Last time. If that wasn't your intent, just say it wasn't but you phrased it that way.

I got no reason to lie on you.

He isn't damage controlling. He is asking you substantiate your accusations.

Accusations are empty without proof. You have none.

If you're going to butt in, at least know what you're getting into. I already bolded his statement. He's playing obtuse.

 

[Henkka]

I don't think there's a simple answer here but if Polynesians find this offensive, I can't with a good conscious say "well fuck that I disagree".

Well, do they or not? Who knows? We need to send an envoy from GAF and get to the bottom of this.

 

[PdotMichael]

I did bold it. Last time. If that wasn't your intent, just say it wasn't but you phrased it that way.

I got no reason to lie on you.

I read the bolded part several times. You can't read your accuse into that part of my post.

It's some high level bullshit.

 

[Gestahl]

I remember watching some interviews with actual Japanese people in Japan and they were absolutely baffled by the protest. They don't give a fuck who wears a kimono, it isn't the least bit offensive to them.

It's probably more offensive to them that someone would try to stop it, since Japan has been promoting and marketing its culture overseas (like most countries that have the leeway to do so) for ages

 

[Zoe]

I get what you're implying but is it really so unreasonable for some to be iffy about the skin tone?

I don't think there's a simple answer here but if Polynesians find this offensive, I can't with a good conscious say "well fuck that I disagree".

I don't think you do get it. There's no way to create an conservatively acceptable (especially from Disney) version of this costume without including the skin.

 

[Jonm1010]

I did bold it. Last time. If that wasn't your intent, just say it wasn't but you phrased it that way.

I got no reason to lie on you.



If you're going to butt in, at least know what you're getting into. I already bolded his statement. He's playing obtuse.

Its you that may need to re-read. I admit, the sentence is a bit hard to follow - big whoop - but you are seeing something that isn't there.

You are the one trying to derive there being serious harm to a culture from this suit, if you want to make that accusation its needs better substantiation then you have put forth.

 

[ishibear]

I read the bolded part several times. You can't read your accuse into that part of my post.

It's some high level bullshit.

You're full of it.

You clearly said I was turning Polynesian into black so I can accuse people of black face which you associated with outrage culture.

If you fucked up just say it.

Its you that may need to re-read. I admit, the sentence is a bit hard to follow - big whoop - but you are seeing something that isn't there.

You are the one trying to derive there being serious harm to a culture from this suit, if you want to make that accusation its needs better substantiation then you have put forth.

I think you're confused. I'm talking about him associating blackface backlash with outrage culture. That's trivializing a legitimate criticism by painting it as bullying.

It's off topic but he came at me with that intent anyway.

 

[SkeptiMism]

I never said I had one.

I'm sorry you guys tie characters to their skin color in order for them to be iconic.

And nice try, that skin tone isn't even close.

People put words into your mouth, but with all due respect, you're doing the same thing aren't you? Nobody who responded to you and pretty much nobody in this thread is saying the character's skin color is iconic or that they're tying the character to their skin color in order for them to be iconic.

In this case it's just clearly the best solution to go with the character's skin. In practice, the other options would be:

- No skin at all and no tattoos or alternatively instructions to paint the tattoos: Horrible solution having kids running around half naked, and trying to have parents painting the intricate tattoos would be very impractical too.
- See through material: Again, horrible solution having kids running around practically half naked. I also don't think there's transparent spandex, so it'd have to be plactic or something, which isn't good either.
- Just have the skin white: Whitewashing accusations would be pretty obvious.
- Just have the skin in multiple colors: This might be a solution I guess. But honestly, personally I just don't see any reason to it. What would it improve? What would it help? And I guess some people could still make the accusation that it lets white kids do blackface (though probably most parents would buy the attire in the color of their kid's skin).
- Not do the attire at all: then people would be mad at the Polynesian princess not getting an attire of their own. In general this just doesn't seem like a very reasonable solution anyway.
- Retrospectively not having done a movie having a Polynesian character as the main character, just use white characters: No. This would be completely ridiculous and sad.

 

[WordAssassin]

Being offended on some other cultural group's behalf without ever asking if that group is offended is about the most ignorant and offensive thing in this whole situation.

It reminds me of those ads for Honda or Kia or something where they had a white guy speaking with a Jamaican accent and a bunch of people flipped the fuck out, completely ignoring the fact that there are white people who live in Jamaica and talk like that, and then when they actually asked the head of the Jamaican travel board or something they were like "We fucking love that commercial because it portrays us as super friendly and laid back what's not to like!?"

People getting offended on behalf of others is one of the most frustratingly stupid things I've encountered in life, especially when the party being offended for, isn't offended at all.

And then they step it up and turn to them and tell them why they should be offended.

 

[Nepenthe]

Now which of the three would actually be allowed in school.

I didn't realize I was supposed to tasked with also choosing a costume that was appropriate for school.

 

[PdotMichael]

You're full of it.

You clearly said I was turning Polynesian into black so I can accuse people of black face which you associated with outrage culture.

If you fucked up just say it.

I'm attacking your silly use of the blackface argument - not playing down the blackface topic.

It's pretty clear, but you are sure desperately trying to change the topic.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I didn't realize I was supposed to tasked with also choosing a costume that was appropriate for school.

It's a kids costume. You realize they dress up at school, don't you? You don't think those considerations are made when designing these things?

 

[AkumaNiko]

I remember watching some interviews with actual Japanese people in Japan and they were absolutely baffled by the protest. They don't give a fuck who wears a kimono, it isn't the least bit offensive to them.

its my firm understanding that unless you are that specific race/ethnicity, you have no right to be offended for them

 

[Alex Stroud]

clear material, Jesus Christ.

Though I guess posters are free to imagine children as scantily-clad as they desire.

 

[TwEE-N-Toast]

its my firm understanding that unless you are that specific race/ethnicity, you have no right to be offended for them

Well a lot of folks on the internet would be out of a hobby if that were true.

 

[Nepenthe]

It's a kids costume. You realize they dress up at school, don't you? You don't think those considerations are made when designing these things?

Of course not. But the topic has in part become about other considerations over the inflatable suit idea that children could do with or without Disney's input, considerations which don't necessarily need to include every single place a child could potentially visit during Halloween because it's not necessary that every single costume idea be acceptable for all situations.

 

[CryptiK]

You...you guys realize that you can cosplay as characters of a different race without painting yourself to be that race, right? Or am I lost on some elaborate GAF joke? (Please don't fucking paint yourself to be another race.)

In the case of this specific costume, it's like an inflatable suit, like these wrestling ones which tend to be white. I don't have an issue with it on that principle, and feel like if there would be a problem with Maui's it would already be inherent to Maui's original character design in the first place.

There is no win with this character we have been through this

1. Remove skin colour its bad
2. Now we have to remove the tattoos because cultural appropriation.
3. Better get rid of the necklace and traditional dress as well
4. We now have no costume
5. Now people are calling Disney racist because they have costumes for white characters but not reppin Polynesians.

There is no way to dress up as this character appropriatetly if we follow the internets "racial rules"

 

[ishibear]

Reminds me of black face.

Not good.

I'll be glad when non white characters can be seen as iconic based on their getup, not their skin color.

People put words into your mouth, but with all due respect, you're doing the same thing aren't you? Nobody who responded to you and pretty much nobody in this thread is saying the character's skin color is iconic or that they're tying the character to their skin color in order for them to be iconic.

In this case it's just clearly the best solution to go with the character's skin. In practice, the other options would be:

- No skin at all and no tattoos or alternatively instructions to paint the tattoos: Horrible solution having kids running around half naked, and trying to have parents painting the intricate tattoos would be very impractical too.
- See through material: Again, horrible solution having kids running around practically half naked. I also don't think there's transparent spandex, so it'd have to be plactic or something, which isn't good either.
- Just have the skin white: Whitewashing accusations would be pretty obvious.
- Just have the skin in multiple colors: This might be a solution I guess. But honestly, personally I just don't see any reason to it. What would it improve? What would it help? And I guess some people could still make the accusation that it lets white kids do blackface (though probably most parents would buy the attire in the color of their kid's skin).
- Not do the attire at all: then people would be mad at the Polynesian princess not getting an attire of their own. In general this just doesn't seem like a very reasonable solution anyway.
- Retrospectively not having done a movie having a Polynesian character as the main character, just use white characters: No. This would be completely ridiculous and sad.

That's my very first post in here, followed by people assuming I had a magical solution they would be satisfied with and no matter how many times I repeated myself, I was met with disagreement. I hate that skin color is often an identifiable trait to many. It would be great to see this character have a costume without their skin color being considered the iconic part as well.

 

[PdotMichael]

I remember watching some interviews with actual Japanese people in Japan and they were absolutely baffled by the protest. They don't give a fuck who wears a kimono, it isn't the least bit offensive to them.

Countries like Japan, China and other Asian states are pushing the "export" of the own culture to other countries quite hard.

Seeing foreigners being interested in their culture is a way to prove that they are relevant in the world - see the soft power term.

 

[Jonm1010]

You're full of it.

You clearly said I was turning Polynesian into black so I can accuse people of black face which you associated with outrage culture.

If you fucked up just say it.



I think you're confused. I'm talking about him associating blackface backlash with outrage culture. That's trivializing a legitimate criticism by painting it as bullying.

It's off topic but he came at me with that intent anyway.

You literally came into this thread comparing this to blackface.

 

[Trouble]

its my firm understanding that unless you are that specific race/ethnicity, you have no right to be offended for them

It's fine to question things, but it's a bit presumptuous to tell an entire culture what they should be offended about. Just imagine if a white person told a black person what they should be offended by.

 

[Jonm1010]

I didn't realize I was supposed to tasked with also choosing a costume that was appropriate for school.

You are just tasked with making good points, less you end up stuck making bad ones. Like you have been doing...