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Police kill unarmed black man in California.

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D

Dalibor68

Banned
Mammoth Jones said:
Do I really have to parse through the link I provided you and strip out all the links they provided to legit news sites that kinda indicate they're not just anecdotes? Fine, let's play this silly game:

http://www.wfmj.com/story/27753282/...er-pointing-gun-at-new-castle-police-officers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQwlfXdDDYA&feature=youtu.be

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/05/o...rivilege-of-arrest-without-incident.html?_r=1

http://www.rawstory.com/2014/12/two...-bb-gun-arent-shot-by-police-for-some-reason/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...eath-of-john-crawford/?utm_term=.bdaa076d40bd

http://www.wmur.com/news/police-man-arrested-after-shooting-bb-gun-at-officers/28219706

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/17/joseph-houseman-open-carry_n_5501883.html
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You did not understand my point at all. What you are doing is present 7 anecdotes of white suspects not getting killed and someone from that make the jump to "white suspects don't get shot, black suspects always get shot" when there are anecdotes to the contrary as well - result being that anecdotes don't mean shit and you can not have a serious discussion when someone basis his whole premise on emotion and anecdotes he takes for facual statistics.

And I have no doubt that there are indeed proportionally more black people shot than white people in the US. Now what does this have to do with this specific incident? Nothing, because the situation could not have been handled differently without being able to foresee the future and/or have superman vision.
 
B

Beefy

Member
Dalibor68 said:
Literally not even 24h ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37494255

These are all anecdotes. They don't mean shit either way. There are millions of guns in the US so naturally there will be more people drawing guns on police officers thus there being more police shooting incidents. If you storm at police with a knife in europe in most cases you will get shot as well.
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You won't always end up dead though, that's the point. I still say better training would mean the guy wouldn't have died. I also want to see the full video instead of nust a still.
 
E

egruntz

shelaughz
Sad this happened, but I do not see reason to blame the cops in this situation. A man is not following orders and suddenly points an object at them in a gun-like fashion. Yes, while it's preferable that they would have been able to deescalate the situation, they also arguably put other lives at risk (including themselves) by not acting instantly upon seeing a threatening stance and position.

This one seems that they followed protocol and did not engage in brutality.

(Going off of information on first page.)
 
R

Ralemont

not me
Mammoth Jones said:
Police kill Blacks at a statistically disproportionate rate. Period. This is across the board so obvious it includes standoff incidents as well as everything else. If you refuse to recognize this you're either ignorant, or a racist. Pick one.
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Yes, police kill blacks at a disproportionate rate. That doesn't mean every time it happens, it's unjustified. Though I would be interested to see comparisons of situations like this one in this thread between white and black victims.
 
D

Dalibor68

Banned
Beefy said:
You won't always end up dead though, that's the point. I still say better training would mean the guy wouldn't have died. I also want to see the full video instead of nust a still.
Click to expand...

You don't always end up dead in the US either, just because every Neogaf thread is about fatal shootings. You are replacing statistical truth with emotion and anecdotes. I have no doubt the fatalities per standoff will be higher in the US for given reasons.
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";218402582]That guy wasn't pointing the gun at him. That's a pretty significant difference.[/QUOTE]

Well that and he actually had a gun....
 
B

Beefy

Member
Dalibor68 said:
You don't always end up dead in the US either, just because every Neogaf thread is about fatal shootings. You are replacing statistical truth with emotion and anecdotes. I have no doubt the fatalities per standoff will be higher in the US for given reasons.
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And you are doing the same. But you are doing it for a police force that has been proven to have a problem.
 
D

DragonSworne

Banned
The only threat the person was to the cops and if the cops weren't there in the first place this person would still be alive.

Cops shouldn't have a free license to kill people if they feel threatened especially when they put themselves in that situation.

Back off and call for reinforcements if the suspect isn'5 cooperating or just leave them be. They aret breaking any crime not listening to you. No point in needlessly increasing the tension and then opening firing because you caused the tense situation.
 
J

JB1981

Member
RDreamer said:
I'm not a fucking armchair expert saying that I would react differently, because I'm not trained.

How do cops in countries without guns do things like this?

I also just love how we expect civilians to react rationally when there are guns pointed at them and cops possibly screaming, yet we don't expect trained police officers to act like calm and rationally.
Click to expand...

As a child were you raised to pretend to be holding a gun when confronted by an officer? Do you think this would be sound adult advice ?
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
DragonSworne said:
The only threat the person was to the cops and if the cops weren't there in the first place this person would still be alive.

Cops shouldn't have a free license to kill people if they feel threatened especially when they put themselves in that situation.

Back off and call for reinforcements if the suspect isn'5 cooperating or just leave them be. They aret breaking any crime not listening to you. No point in needlessly increasing the tension and then opening firing because you caused the tense situation.
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He would also still be alive if he didn't assume the firing stance.
 
G

GeordieMark

Member
DragonSworne said:
The only threat the person was to the cops and if the cops weren't there in the first place this person would still be alive.

Cops shouldn't have a free license to kill people if they feel threatened especially when they put themselves in that situation.

Back off and call for reinforcements if the suspect isn'5 cooperating or just leave them be. They aret breaking any crime not listening to you. No point in needlessly increasing the tension and then opening firing because you caused the tense situation.
Click to expand...

They put themselves in those situations because that's their job. They don't do it for the fun, or for some action. You can't just leave someone be if they are a potential danger to themselves or others.
 
B

Beefy

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";218403425]He would also still be alive if he didn't assume the firing stance.[/QUOTE]

He would have still been alive if mental health was taken seriously.
 
A

AYF 001

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";218402582]That guy wasn't pointing the gun at him. That's a pretty significant difference.[/QUOTE]

Then why did the two other officers who arrived shoot and kill the suspect?
 
M

Mammoth Jones

Member
Ralemont said:
Yes, police kill blacks at a disproportionate rate. That doesn't mean every time it happens, it's unjustified. Though I would be interested to see comparisons of situations like this one in this thread between white and black victims.
Click to expand...

I mean, no shit. Some motherfuckers actually do have guns and do get shot. No one is suggesting otherwise.

I also would love to see data broken down by situation/circumstance.

Beefy said:
He would have still been alive if mental health was taken seriously.
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This is how I feel. People have done far worse and still somehow got taken in alive. I have a family member with severe mental illness and one time they dipped and we panicked not cause they were a danger to someone but we didn't want the cops to roll up and go in the way they normally do. Thankfully the deli nearby knows our situation and called us and all was well.
 
D

DragonSworne

Banned
Mega said:
What's your point? The guy in this situation handled the object like a gun, which would have fooled anyone into thinking it was in fact a gun and act appropriately.
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What law did this person break? Why did the cops feel the need to arrest this individual? Why did the cops not disengage from the individual?

You don't get to open fire on people because you escalate the tension of the situation.

Back away and get real professionals involved.
 
D

Dalibor68

Banned
Beefy said:
And you are doing the same. But you are doing it for a police force that have been proven to have a problem.
Click to expand...

Your statement was that in the US you always end up dead. And absolute statements like that are factually wrong. Actively storm at police with a knife and there is a very good chance you'll get shot, whether the police is american or european. The main reason why you have less police shootings with fatal outcomes in europe is the simple fact that there aren't millions of guns in everyones hands in europe. Not because european police officers are superheroes who can predict the future and see through people's pockets. By perpetuating this myth you are holding us police officers to a standard that doesn't exist. That said of course you can and should always have better training.
 
B

Beefy

Member
Dalibor68 said:
You're statement was that in the US you always end up dead. And absolute statements like that are factually wrong. Actively storm at police with a knife and there is a very good chance you'll get shot, whether the police is american or european. The main reason why you have less police shootings with fatal outcomes in europe is the simple fact that there aren't millions of guns in everyones hands.
Click to expand...

And the police are better trained.
 
D

Dali

Member
How fucking incompetent do you have to not understand taser/taser? OK gun/taser dead

You guys maybe need to get on the same page.
 
B

Beefy

Member
Dalibor68 said:
That might well be true, but it most likely wouldn't have made any difference in this specific scenario.
Click to expand...

That's were we differ I feel it would have. To me US cops are too trugger happy. Yes part of it is due the amount of guns are about, but part of it is lack of training and racism.
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
We really need to do something about posting threads with misleading/inflammatory titles. It seems like several times a month we get a thread where half of it is spent correcting people who didn't read the article and just want to get angry at something.

These things are worth talking about, but this isn't exactly a healthy way of going about it.
 
B

Beefy

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";218404301]We really need to do something about posting threads with misleading/inflammatory titles. It seems like several times a month we get a thread where half of it is spent correcting people who didn't read the article and just want to get angry at something.

These things are worth talking about, but this isn't exactly a healthy way of going about it.[/QUOTE]

The thread title is from the report.
 
M

Mammoth Jones

Member
Dalibor68 said:
You did not understand my point at all. What you are doing is present 7 anecdotes of white suspects not getting killed and someone from that make the jump to "white suspects don't get shot, black suspects always get shot" when there are anecdotes to the contrary as well - result being that anecdotes don't mean shit and you can not have a serious discussion when someone basis his whole premise on emotion and anecdotes he takes for facual statistics.

And I have no doubt that there are indeed proportionally more black people shot than white people in the US. Now what does this have to do with this specific incident? Nothing, because the situation could not have been handled differently without being able to foresee the future and/or have superman vision.
Click to expand...

They're not anecdotes when they're backed up by stats. You can't in one sentence call them nothing but anecdotes then in the next concede that such a discrepancy the links I provided indicates does in fact exist.

The incidents I showed prove that cops CAN bring mofos in without killing them. Superman vision not required.
 
D

Dalibor68

Banned
Mammoth Jones said:
They're not anecdotes when they're backed up by stats. You can't in one sentence call them nothing but anecdotes then in the next concede that such a discrepancy the links I provided indicates does in fact exist.

The incidents I showed prove that cops CAN bring mofos in without killing them. Superman vision not required.
Click to expand...

I won't be able to read through all of the links until tomorrow because I have to go now, so I will answer more cohesively then - but I could imagine that in many cases they weren't 2m infront of the suspect when they suddenly pulled out what seemed like a gun, instead often scenarios where the situation was more or less clear(ie armed suspect who fired off rounds) and more distance between them?
 
M

Mega

Banned
Dalibor68 said:
You did not understand my point at all. What you are doing is present 7 anecdotes of white suspects not getting killed and someone from that make the jump to "white suspects don't get shot, black suspects always get shot" when there are anecdotes to the contrary as well - result being that anecdotes don't mean shit and you can not have a serious discussion when someone basis his whole premise on emotion and anecdotes he takes for facual statistics.

And I have no doubt that there are indeed proportionally more black people shot than white people in the US. Now what does this have to do with this specific incident? Nothing, because the situation could not have been handled differently without being able to foresee the future and/or have superman vision.
Click to expand...

Agree.

Black Americans are more likely to be confronted and shot, but this narrative that white people are always calmly taken in without violence is false and built on a few anecdotes. By the figures posted in this thread, there are a lot of police shootings to go around for all groups.
 
B

BLACK AMERICAN PSYCHO

Junior Member
eFKac said:
I'd rather have a more substantial answer.
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You don't shoot at people to disable them. You are only to suppose to use a gun in situations where you fear for your life. If you fear for your life, you are not shooting to disable something, you are shooting until whatever you are shooting at no longer poses a threat. Any sort of bullet wound can kill tbh and in a stressful situation, there is no time to be trying to take somebody down in a way that keeps them alive when they have a gun as well.
 
T

Tecnniqe

Banned
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";218404301]We really need to do something about posting threads with misleading/inflammatory titles. It seems like several times a month we get a thread where half of it is spent correcting people who didn't read the article and just want to get angry at something.

These things are worth talking about, but this isn't exactly a healthy way of going about it.[/QUOTE]

I guess a lot of people can agree on that.
 
M

Moltisanti

Member
http://www.theroot.com/articles/news/2016/09/el-cajon-police-shooting/

Updated Wednesday, Sept. 28, 2:17 a.m. EDT: According to activists on the ground in El Cajon, the police department informed media that it was aware its officers were responding to a “5150” call when Olango was killed. The name of the police officer who killed Olango has not been released.
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A “5150” call is defined as:

When a person, as a result of a mental disorder, is a danger to himself/herself or others or is gravely disabled, a peace officer, a member of the attending staff, or another professional person designated by the county may with probable cause take the person into custody and place him or her in a facility for a 72-hour treatment and evaluation.
Click to expand...

This information appears to be confirmed by police scanner audio shared by United Against Police Terror—San Diego Copwatch & Campaign for Justice. Calls to the El Cajon Police Department to confirm the authenticity of the audio have not been returned.
Click to expand...
 
J

Jawbreaker

Member
This is really awful because the guy clearly had mental health issues.

DragonSworne said:
Cops need to learn to not to be afraid of getting shot. So many lives would be saved.
Click to expand...

That seems like a tall order in a country with more than 300 million guns. Certainly, they could be a lot less trigger-happy, but I don't think that fear will ever fade unless there's a dramatic change in how the U.S. goes about gun laws.
 
M

Mega

Banned
DragonSworne said:
Cops need to learn to not to be afraid of getting shot. So many lives would be saved.
Click to expand...

This is wrong and ridiculous on so many levels. For starters, the person who isn't afraid to be shot will probably need to have seen a lot of violence firsthand to get to that point. You're talking about hardened military, serial killer or a violent career criminal. You're asking for a police force that is emotionally cold and has an inhuman approach to life.

Honestly I would think that a cop who isn't afraid to get shot (in a country full of guns) is the more dangerous one and itching to go into situation guns blazing like a crazed action hero who has no fears.
 
E

excelsiorlef

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";218404301]We really need to do something about posting threads with misleading/inflammatory titles. It seems like several times a month we get a thread where half of it is spent correcting people who didn't read the article and just want to get angry at something.

These things are worth talking about, but this isn't exactly a healthy way of going about it.[/QUOTE]


The facts are inflammatory?

He was in fact unarmed.
 
D

darscot

Member
Every black person in the US is not a raving lunatic that has a plan to go out and kill as many cops as he can before they take him down. It should be expected that a cop wearing body armour will take the risk to actually see a gun pointed at them before they kill someone. Yes that fraction of a second may result in a cop getting shot and maybe even killed. That is the job, get these cops better armour or something. This nonsense that every black man, is as quick and accurate on the draw as the hero in a spaghetti western really needs to stop. Killing an unarmed man at the very least should result in your immediate dismissal in many cases these police should be charged with a crime.
 
D

Dalibor68

Banned
excelsiorlef said:
The facts are inflammatory?

He was in fact unarmed.
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Don't play dumb. It is purposefully phrased to give the impression the police fired unprovoked.

Rayne009 said:
Oh. Nice to know my first instinct of the cops being incompetent was right.
Click to expand...

That doesn't change anything on the ground level situation here. Mentally ill afaik doesn't mean "behaves like a 3-year-old" but can mean schizophrenia, psychosis and other things that make the situation even more dangerous. And there is no responsibility to get shot by a mentally ill person either. This man wanted to commit suicide by cop at any rate.
 
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