That's because they are.
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Modern Lara Croft is such a dull protagonist
- Thread starter SeeNoWeevil
- Start date
That's because they are.
Honestly, I think modern Lara would be fine if she had some of the old Lara's smug humor injected back into her.
Less "I can do this, I can do this" and more, well, just doing it, making it look easy, and then cocking a smile like "I BREATHE adventure and action".
Basically, she needs to enjoy herself.
Less "I can do this, I can do this" and more, well, just doing it, making it look easy, and then cocking a smile like "I BREATHE adventure and action".
Basically, she needs to enjoy herself.
Plumpbiscuit
Member
This is a video game. Video games are not real. Characters can wear whatever they want, practical or not. ROtTR has enemies that are undead firing magic at you, so there's no excuses why they can't take liberties in making more varied outfits.
It's exactly what you said: "imo what they should do is recognise that current Lara is a ruthless, unusually driven psychopath and then make that her character arc in the next game"
PLENTY of women love classic Lara, grew up with her and were inspired by her. Where did you get your information from that 90s games were like a boy's club?
This is an awful argument to make. You can't use the logic of "if x character isn't wearing y character's outfit, then y character can't wear whatever they want". It doesn't really matter if Nathan Drake only wears trousers (btw, he doesn't, so where are you getting that he does because Drake definitely does wear shorts for different costumes) because he's a totally different character, in a totally different game, made by totally different people. If that's the case, then using your logic, Nathan Drake isn't allowed to have shoot guns because Indiana Jones uses a whip. Sorry!
Opinions, man. What you think is mediocre could be the best, or the worst, to somebody else, and has nothing to do with modern Lara's personality. Also what do you mean by poor story and Lara looking out of place? A lack of story doesn't necessarily mean the game is worse off, otherwise Nintendo would have gone out of business a long time ago along with most arcade games during their time.
It's not that I want to see her wearing less clothes, just more variety in them. This is a fictional video game, be creative and don't constrict yourself to holding grounds of realism, in a far unrealistic game.
The Albatross
Member
Not really sure what anybody expects. Lara Croft, from the originals and now the reboots, was always a character that the player could super-impose themselves onto. The character is a mix of Batman and Indiana Jones, so you get Batman's complete lack of personality for his backstory (parents dead, super wealthy, uses wealth to do good), and Indiana Jones' overwhelming "do good at any human cost" contradiction.
Tomb Raider (2013) had silly caricatures of characters. You knew they wanted to expand on the story element but just decided mid-way through "Eh, fuck it, let's just make a really good game instead of trying to force a story in there..." and that's what they did. The first hour of the game tries to build relationships between Lara and the other characters, like the chef who calls her Little Bird or whatever, and then that's just completely, entirely dropped after an hour. The game is better off for it. You don't need to shove a hamfisted relationship on the player in every game. Too many games tell the player "You're supposed to care about this side character because the protagonist cares about this side character, and you care about the protagonist ... right... right!?" Obviously it's not convincing. This is why games (and movies, but particular games) over-use tired relationships between characters to make you care about them: Long lost brothers, former lovers, children, parents, etc. Making you care about the protagonists' friend in a game is really difficult without a lot of buildup (which is what makes the Sully / Drake relationship work in UC3, but it takes 3 games to build that beating you over the head with their friendship), but in the rest of Uncharted it's "Oh you should care about this guy because he's your long lost trouble making brother..." or "You should care about this girl because she's your former long lost troubled girlfriend..." THere are very few games that give you a good reason to care about a character, one of them is the Walking Dead, where it becomes super-easy to care about Clementine because she's such a sympathetic and likable character, and not once do you (or well, did I) ever feel like "ugh, I wish she'd just be dead so I could actually beat the bad guys..."
Rise of the Tomb Raider actually gives a solid, strong backstory and is much more interesting. But, Lara is who she is -- a character without a strong personality because that's the point, let Lara represent the player. Games nearly always take this approach with their protagonists, and games are unique in fiction for typically having very dull protagonists while much more interesting antagonists and side-characters. Think of Leon from Resident Evil 4, who is surrounded by these over-the-top insanely weird characters filled with mysterious intent, and he's this impossibly boring milquetoast police guy with no backstory. And yet very few people complain about Leon being a boring or dull protagonist. Franklin from GTAV is one of the most dull characters for a major successful game, he has no motivations other than "get rich" and almost all of his lines in the game are him playing off of the insanity of other characters and telling them to stop being so insane.
Tomb Raider (2013) had silly caricatures of characters. You knew they wanted to expand on the story element but just decided mid-way through "Eh, fuck it, let's just make a really good game instead of trying to force a story in there..." and that's what they did. The first hour of the game tries to build relationships between Lara and the other characters, like the chef who calls her Little Bird or whatever, and then that's just completely, entirely dropped after an hour. The game is better off for it. You don't need to shove a hamfisted relationship on the player in every game. Too many games tell the player "You're supposed to care about this side character because the protagonist cares about this side character, and you care about the protagonist ... right... right!?" Obviously it's not convincing. This is why games (and movies, but particular games) over-use tired relationships between characters to make you care about them: Long lost brothers, former lovers, children, parents, etc. Making you care about the protagonists' friend in a game is really difficult without a lot of buildup (which is what makes the Sully / Drake relationship work in UC3, but it takes 3 games to build that beating you over the head with their friendship), but in the rest of Uncharted it's "Oh you should care about this guy because he's your long lost trouble making brother..." or "You should care about this girl because she's your former long lost troubled girlfriend..." THere are very few games that give you a good reason to care about a character, one of them is the Walking Dead, where it becomes super-easy to care about Clementine because she's such a sympathetic and likable character, and not once do you (or well, did I) ever feel like "ugh, I wish she'd just be dead so I could actually beat the bad guys..."
Rise of the Tomb Raider actually gives a solid, strong backstory and is much more interesting. But, Lara is who she is -- a character without a strong personality because that's the point, let Lara represent the player. Games nearly always take this approach with their protagonists, and games are unique in fiction for typically having very dull protagonists while much more interesting antagonists and side-characters. Think of Leon from Resident Evil 4, who is surrounded by these over-the-top insanely weird characters filled with mysterious intent, and he's this impossibly boring milquetoast police guy with no backstory. And yet very few people complain about Leon being a boring or dull protagonist. Franklin from GTAV is one of the most dull characters for a major successful game, he has no motivations other than "get rich" and almost all of his lines in the game are him playing off of the insanity of other characters and telling them to stop being so insane.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Chloe and Nadine have the personality of wet blankets, Nadine is written to be flawless and invincible while Chloe lost any sense of agency and relevance after Drake chose Elena. Literally, she could've been replaced with anyone in UC3 and the game wouldn't be any different.
I swear, I thought the title said Marta La Croft.
Don't look her up at work.
This right here.
Still love the new games though.
Don't look her up at work.
This right here.
Still love the new games though.
I've liked both of the newer TR games, but yeah, Lara isn't one of the reasons why - she's just kind of an empty shell of a character. Not that she was a fascinating character before, but I do miss her more dry and sarcastic sense of humor.
Also, I'm really, really tired of Crystal Dynamics' obsession with making Lara take and survive absolutely ridiculous falls from incredible heights in each game.
Also, I'm really, really tired of Crystal Dynamics' obsession with making Lara take and survive absolutely ridiculous falls from incredible heights in each game.
Kralamoonard
Member
Yet despite that they're more engaging and have a more believable personality than Lara. Writing is much more than that. I feel like you're being very reductive in your assessment of both characters.
BlackLagoon
Member
By flopped, you mean sold around 2.5 million copies by 2009, more than Chronicles, Angel of Darkness and Anniversary, and quite possibly Rise.
privitsan02
Member
Lara Croft was never a great character. The only positive about her was how she was portrayed as a strong female protagonist, which the reboots replaced with a whinier incarnation. I have yet to play Rise, but I'm fairly certain that if I like the game unlike the reboot, it won't be for croft.
Best wishes.
Best wishes.
I couldn't take TR2013 seriously after a while because of how overly vocal she was. The Uncharted knockoff "Nate falls down a lot while everything collapses" segments were hilarious because of her goofy noises of "OOOOOOH, AAAOOOHHH, OOOH NOOOO" sounding like Frodo in this LOTR spoof video.
I know having the player character speak out loud in games a lot is popular now, but her constant dialogue seemed so far out of sync with whatever was actually supposed to be happening in the game it ended up weakening it.
I know having the player character speak out loud in games a lot is popular now, but her constant dialogue seemed so far out of sync with whatever was actually supposed to be happening in the game it ended up weakening it.
Weltall Zero
Member
I like her as well. I think her personality is fine, I just think that she could use more scenes where she is more emotional. I loved how they explained why she got the second pistol in the first game
AgentOtaku
Member
While I powered thru TR2013, despite the horrid characters and story, I just couldn't do it with RoTR and sold it back
Seriously, all the amazing talent and technology (and fantatsic gameplay), but they put out some of the most cliche, uninteresting world/characters.
Seriously, all the amazing talent and technology (and fantatsic gameplay), but they put out some of the most cliche, uninteresting world/characters.
InfiniteCombo
Banned
Man... Sometimes one has to remember that most comments on GAF fall into one of two hyperbolic ends of the spectrum: "This is the greatest thing ever!" or "This is the most absolutely repugnant garbage in the history of the universe!" WTF, no room for middle ground?
The problem with Tomb Raider 2013 is twofold: (1) it takes itself way too seriously; (2) it has some characters and relationships that could actually be good, if fully developed.
I'm starting to wonder if #1 was necessary; had the Tomb Raider reboot line of games had a more lighthearted tone, they would've been accused of just being straight up Uncharted copies. So it had to be the more serious one; the only analogy I can think of right now is much like the Rolling Stones needed to brand themselves as the "bad boys" to contrast themselves with the Beatles. Two entities providing a very similar service, but they have to differentiate each other somehow.
#2 is just writing not fully realized. For example, we all know Roth is a mentor and father figure of sorts to Lara; I wished their interactions expanded more on this. Look at Drake and Sully: from the first moments of the very first Uncharted game, you could tell they've known each other for a long time, just based in the way they interact. Reyes and her relationship with
Roth
As for Lara herself? She's just serious about her work, and she's a somewhat serious person. This is evidenced in the way she carries herself, and you can get that from Sam's videos in TR2013. Nothing wrong with Lara being serious. It's almost as she's a female Batman or something: very good at what she does, but not very fun to be around. Why do people expect her to be something else? Because she's young and attractive? Oh look, the young and attractive super outgoing, super sassy woman! Now THAT is a cliche. There's room for all kinds of characterizations in games.
I see this as another in a long line of threads just trying to highlight how allegedly awful the new line of Tomb Raider games is, compared to the classic games. So be it; I personally have close to zero interest in going back to the old games, as the gameplay of the reboot line is much more to my liking.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Not really. The presentation is better but they certainly aren't more believable.
What I came in to say. That was fine for the reboot, but even in that there were some hints of smug arrogance coming back (mostly when murdering dudes, but still).
RotTR feels largely joyless to me as far as her character. No flirting really, no fun, no cracking some humor (even dark or sarcastic humor), no confidence. It's weird.
There's character and depth there, and I like the performance, but the rather straightforward and uninspired writing of her fails both of those points.
GameAddict411
Member
I played the original 2013 reboot and she was dull as fuck. The whole story and writing was pretty terrible. I still haven't played the latest one, but I am playing for the gameplay.
RustyNails
Member
Man how hard is it to give your character a personality. Learn from ND at least, the developer you're copying from.
sublimit
Banned
I haven't played Rise yet (waiting to get it very cheap at some point) but Crystal has never managed to write a convincing Lara character in any of their TR games.The irony is that that has always been their focus ever since Legend and it was the excuse behind rebooting the series in 2013 yet they always failed miserably. Core Design on the other hand without even really trying (at least before AoD) they managed to make a more likable Lara that she was badass,mysterious and with an actual British sense of humour.
Camilla Ludington is also disappointing as LC because she doesn't sound even nearly as British (even though she was born in England) as Shelley Blond or Judith Gibbins.
Maybe the fact that she moved to Texas for a year when she was younger and the fact that she finished an American school in the UK gave her an American tone to her accent.I wouldn't be surprised if Crystal chose her specifically for that reason because they didn't want Lara to have a posh British accent (like the classic Lara had) which may have annoyed the new American fans that they were targeting with the Reboot.
Camilla Ludington is also disappointing as LC because she doesn't sound even nearly as British (even though she was born in England) as Shelley Blond or Judith Gibbins.
Maybe the fact that she moved to Texas for a year when she was younger and the fact that she finished an American school in the UK gave her an American tone to her accent.I wouldn't be surprised if Crystal chose her specifically for that reason because they didn't want Lara to have a posh British accent (like the classic Lara had) which may have annoyed the new American fans that they were targeting with the Reboot.
hanspampel
Banned
name one single video game character, that is not dull (in the eyes of some people)
i like her. and i can accept your opinion. i just dont know what should be discussed about this?
i like her. and i can accept your opinion. i just dont know what should be discussed about this?
///PATRIOT
Banned
New Lara is better, I never liked Angelina Croft.
What other emotions did classic Lara show other than aloof or slightly annoyed? There's no doubt that the reboot Lara has characterization issues, especially in the first game, but I have to laugh anytime someone offers the original Lara as a somewhat better character. She had no character, she might as well have been a cardboard cutout with a London accent. I cannot think of any place in the first 3 games where there was any character development of Lara Croft at all. I never made it through all of Last Revelation to comment and Angel of Darkness was a trainwreck to play so I can't comment on those two.
If you prefer cardboard cutout Lara to overwrought sociopath Lara, thats fine, but lets not pretend there was something there that wasn't. Classic Lara is little more than an on screen avatar.
Common Knowledge
Member
Come on, man. There's an argument to be made that even today games are like a boy's club in some regards, with the disproportionate representation of straight, white, male protagonists in comparison to everything else. The 90's were even worse in this regard, with female protagonists (and yes, that includes classic Lara) more of an object of eye candy than anything remotely engaging or deep.
Not to put words into Garret Hawke's mouth, but I think that was more of just a hypothetical example to bring attention to the fact that female characters are still massively disproportionately used as eye candy. Not that Drake specifically should start being a scantily clad male sex symbol, but that until the industry improves it's current sexism issues, it'd be a arguably wiser (and frankly just more refreshing) to have well-known female protagonists that don't rely on their breasts and ass to become iconic video game characters.
Not that developers should completely back away from attractive female characters (reboot Lara is, after all, a very attractive woman even though her looks aren't made to be the highlight of her character), or that completely sexualized female characters are a complete no-no at all times (it can be done well. See for example, Bayonetta), but simply a generalized argument that in the effort to make video games more inclusive and representative of female players, this is something that needs to be heavily focused on and worked upon.
This revisionist history that nobody ever liked old Lara Croft except for her breasts is ridiculous.
But I guess that's how you sell games in long-running franchises now, especially for reboots. You shit on the old games to make the new one look better.
Even if you want to claim it flopped, nobody was talking about her character as the main reason to criticize the game at the time. It was the fact that Underworld had camera and technical issues.
But I guess that's how you sell games in long-running franchises now, especially for reboots. You shit on the old games to make the new one look better.
Even if you want to claim it flopped, nobody was talking about her character as the main reason to criticize the game at the time. It was the fact that Underworld had camera and technical issues.
BibiMaghoo
Member
I think this, hence the need to saddle her with massive tits originally for anyone to take note.
SuperStiltzkin
Member
You're on the wrong side of history.
Mission Failed.
Did it, though?
You look at the reception for these new Tomb Raiders, and you'd think Crystal Dynamics had finally discovered the secret to making an actually good Tomb Raider game or something.
It's annoying.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
People confuse near constant quips and banter as characterization. So a woman who isn't doing that and is genuinely taking what they're doing seriously, is seen as dull. New Lara is constantly determined to do what she needs to do, and is genuinely interested in the world of Archaeology based on her mannerisms and reactions to ancient monuments.she wants to do the right thing but due to the first game she's not very easily trusting of others, hell, she can even be straight up threatening as she takes her enemies hostage, and dishes as just as much punishment as they give to her. She's constantly fighting an uphill battle when literally the entire world is seemingly out to get her whether it's with fake news like her being crazy or with an army of armed goons, all except for her small group of friends. These are all admirable qualities for a character to have. What CD needs to work on is the characterization of side characters as while their motivations make sense, they aren't super compelling. But just to reiterate, no one is constantly quipping and in this day and age gamers see that as good characterization and writing.
///PATRIOT
Banned
You are overthinking it, mate.
Mac the KNife
Member
Playing through Rise and Lara's definitely the worst part about it. She brings nothing to the table as a character.
They made a better Tomb Raider in Anniversary and for some reason allowed themselves to be influenced by a deluded writing team, that seemingly still doesn't understand that they write like crap. Unfortunately, the first step to fixing a problem is recognizing it is a problem. We're still at step zero.
Common Knowledge
Member
Yeah, this is something that bothers me a lot about these sorts of threads. Not that I think modern Lara Croft is a completely great character (there's a lot of improvements to be made with her), but going by both this and countless past threads about characterization, sometimes I get the impression that some people think that if a character isn't making witty one-liners every couple of minutes, that they "lack a personality". Off the top of my head there was Connor in Assassin's Creed 3 (who, granted, had a good deal of characterization issues), and people kept comparing him to Ezio and saying he lacked a personality. No, he didn't lack a personality, he was just serious and solemn whereas Ezio was energetic and charismatic. Personality types, how do they work?
She is seen as dull because the writing is completely terrible, not because she lacks quips and one liners.
jeez that's a huge wall-of-text to say that a character has lost all her charm and turned to a generic piece of cardboard who faces mundane challenges
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Connor isn't even solemn, he's just around people who treat him like shit, marginalize and use him, and don't respect his culture, they had an entire side quest dedicated to showing his character around people who don't do that.
The writing isn't even terrible, her progression as a fearful college student interested in archaelogy who's forced to survive and fight for her life
to determined woman who actively seeks adventure, doesn't take shit from anybody and is genuinely interested in learning the world's secrets makes complete sense.
just based on her body language, tone, and expressions alone.
neohwa
Junior Member
She is supposed to be like Cloud or Crono, dull but not the in your face asshole character like Nathan Drake. Which works fine when you should focus on the gameplay.
Horrible, evil psychotic character like Nathan or Kratos as the main characters made the games unappealing for a lot of people.
Horrible, evil psychotic character like Nathan or Kratos as the main characters made the games unappealing for a lot of people.
The first game had awful writing and voice direction.
The story and characters were awful in the TR reboot. It had great gameplay imo though.
Trigonometrize.
Member
Cloud is not an in-your-face asshole but Drake is? Drake is a horrible, evil psychotic character on the level of Kratos? Are you being purposely delusional?
Agreed. Beat it on Hard with bow only, fantastic experience.