Support NeoGAF

[EscapingJail]

You don't understand. Casuals struggle immensely to produce a srk, for example. I've been playing these all my life and love them as they are, but they need to drop the execution barrier drastically, as an optional feature. Chess analogy posted here is great. Mastering execution in fighting games was harder than learning to play guitar, personally. Can't captivate outsiders as is.

Up+punch = srk
Forward+punch = hdk
Back+kick = ts

So on and so forth. Optional.

I feel like a lot of complaints like these are people that don't want to actually practice and look at the game. They would rather complain and type this up than go into the game and simply practice the move. Rolling your thumb from down to right and pressing one button is not a hard thing to do. Esp if you make some effort.

Also for people that have a really hard time doing that there are charge characters waiting for you. (Which most people find harder than input based characters.)

I get how combos and things like links would be very hard to understand completely, but a shoryuken? Hadoken? No you just don't want to put in any effort and do cool stuff, and that is the wrong mentality to go into a competitive game with.

 

[Belker]

On the idea of how to get casuals to play fighting games, I'd like to see how Sirlin's Fantasy Strike does. Left-right movement only and very simple attacks and special moves.

When two people are button mashing at home on the sofa, execution isn't an issue. But I think that - and ego - is what people bump into to fighting online. Getting tonked in your first game against a random isn't fun for most people; one always assumes they're more experienced and dextrous, not necessarily that you got out-thought.

If you can remove the execution issue, you'll give people a chance to do better online and thus protect their ego and perhaps encourage them to try more games. Maybe it's about shifting the perception of failure?

 

[groansey]

The issue isn't the game / mechanics itself (for the most part), it's the online matchmaking. If SF2 had had online play, it would have seemed just as impenetrable.

Doubtful, as it was far less complicated. But this is why singleplayer is important. I had some great SFV games online as a novice but getting repeatedly destroyed by some wizard player is not a fun gameplay loop.

Another issue with SFV is how overpriced it all is. For a £25 season pass they should be dropping a character a month, perhaps they've dialled it back due to disappointing sales?

 

[Z..]

That chess analogy really isn't great. Fighting games aren't chess and fighting games are more than just strategy.



If people knew framedata back then I assure you it wouldn't be any different than now.



Foward + medium punch, Foward + heavy punch and Back + heavy kick are already command normals for Ryu. Should SF remove those tools with simplified controls or should they take away medium, heavy hadoukens and heavy tatsumaki?

They should get assigned different directions. Down punch is free. There's room for everything and then some. How is this hard to understand? Seriously, I'm no scrub man, don't be so afraid of change. Optional, remember?

 

[Enter The 36 Chambers]

I would have bought it day one if they released it for Xbox

 

[tabs2002]

A single button press for sonic boom or flash kick would be hilariously broken. Don't do it Capcom.

 

[Z..]

I feel like a lot of complaints like these are people that don't want to actually practice and look at the game. They would rather complain and type this up than go into the game and simply practice the move. Rolling your thumb from down to right and pressing one button is not a hard thing to do. Esp if you make some effort.

Also for people that have a really hard time doing that there are charge characters waiting for you. (Which most people find harder than input based characters.)

I get how combos and things like links would be very hard to understand completely, but a shoryuken? Hadoken? No you just don't want to put in any effort and do cool stuff, and that is the wrong mentality to go into a competitive game with.

Let's get real, execution being an issue adds nothing to the strategy. Hell, the games only reach their true potential once you get past the execution barrier. High level play is NEVER down to execution and you know it.
Again, avid fg player here.

Why should casuals practice if the whole issue can be avoided completely without diluting what makes the games great in the first place in the slighest? Out of stubborness or tradition?

It IS hard. Much harder than the vast majority of inputs required in any other genre. And doesn't improve the experience or add any benefits. Charge characters are typically even harder, yes.

You're being incredibly elitist about it and this is a huge part of the problem, too. The community seems to think this unnecessary layer is essential.

Why would including a different option ruin the game in the slighest for anyone?

A single button press for sonic boom or flash kick would be hilariously broken. Don't do it Capcom.

How would it be broken. Can't all of us fg players produce specials instantly as is? This would merely level the playing field and allow casuals to grasp fundamentals much faster whilst feeling much less overwhelmed in the initial stages.

Explain to me very clearly how it would break anything, please, I'm ever so curious.

 

[Varjet]

They should get assigned different directions. Down punch is free. There's room for everything and then some. How is this hard to understand? Seriously, I'm no scrub man, don't be so afraid of change. Optional, remember?

How is down punch free, there are crouching normals, you know.

A single button press for sonic boom or flash kick would be hilariously broken. Don't do it Capcom.

The joys of playing SFIV3D online.

 

[groansey]

Who would want to study frame data so they can consistently win at a competitive videogame? Boo on them, and boo on the devs for designing sequels to be played that way.

The people that do this, the "pro" players that are now this games fanbase, have to some extent ruined Street Fighter for everyone else.

And if that's what it takes to win, it should be crystal clearly explained to everyone in the damned tutorials.

 

[Z..]

How is down punch free, there are crouching normals, you know.



The joys of playing SFIV3D online.

You can hit down punch from a standing position without crouching, you know?

If it bothers you that much, make it back punch. Grasping at straws, man.... There's always going to be a direction that's free, why is this being so stubbornly rejected? Oo

 

[myco666]

They should get assigned different directions. Down punch is free. There's room for everything and then some. How is this hard to understand? Seriously, I'm no scrub man, don't be so afraid of change. Optional, remember?

Afraid of change? Where did you get that from? I just asked how you would do that. But even if that was how you could play the game how you would balance it? Because that sounds really broken with the current balance.

 

[Sir Ilpalazzo]

Doubtful, as it was far less complicated. But this is why singleplayer is important. I had some great SFV games online as a novice but getting repeatedly destroyed by some wizard player is not a fun gameplay loop.

You should try playing SF2 online (like, on Fightcade); you'll see that that isn't the case if you do. A gap between strong and weak players is always going to exist as long as the game is sufficiently deep.

How would it be broken. Can't all of us fg players produce specials instantly as is? This would merely level the playing field and allow casuals to grasp fundamentals much faster whilst feeling much less overwhelmed in the initial stages.

Explain to me very clearly how it would break anything, please, I'm ever so curious.

You literally cannot do charge moves "instantly", no matter how good you are. That's why they are charge moves. For an immediate example of how a control scheme that allows charge move inputs to be simplified can break the game, look at Capcom vs SNK 2's EO mode or, yeah, SFIV 3D (which disastrously allowed them in online play).

This hypothetical control scheme complicates things further when you take online play into account. If you don't segregate players using it into a separate pool of players, then you run into the issue of standard players having to go up against people who are more or less playing a different game / playing under a different ruleset. If you do, then you split the playerbase and make online a little less active for everyone.

 

[Z..]

Afraid of change? Where did you get that from? I just asked how you would do that. But even if that was how you could play the game how you would balance it? Because that sounds really broken with the current balance.

I really don't see how this is an issue. The move sets would remain the same regardless of your input method of choice. Again, high level play is NEVER about execution, you can always rely on hardcore players to nail the execution even on insanely tight links. Do you mean to say that beginner/medium level players using the simplified controls would have an advantage over beginner/medium level players using classic inputs? Because if that's the case, you'd always be free to change if you felt the classic method was holding you back. Is it dilution that you fear?

 

[Prototype]

Who would want to study frame data so they can consistently win at a competitive videogame? Boo on them, and boo on the devs for designing sequels to be played that way.

Life is too fucking short. The people that do this, the "pro" players that are now this games fanbase, have to some extent ruined Street Fighter for everyone else.

And if that's what it takes to win, it should be crystal clearly explained to everyone in the damned tutorials.

What do you mean ruined SF for everyone else?
And when exactly did SF get "ruined"?
Because it seems like you are implying that older SF games were better in some way that's changed.
Do you really believe that someone who sucks at SF4 or 5 would all of a sudden become better while playing SF2?assuming SF2 wasn't "ruined".

Because that's laughable. A person who can't play current SF would never, I mean never, have even a slight chance at the older games.



Anyway, on retaining and gaining players:

What the games need isn't lack of complexity. They just need robust single player modes like World Tour for the casuals and new players. Modes where you can "level" up and equip stupid shit like auto combo or whatever. Then make a separate VS mode where players can use their built up characters. Alpha 3 did it, even soul calibur did it.

It doesn't matter how complex or difficult the game actually is. Even if it were singlebutton press moves, the people who suck at fighting games simply don't have the mind for it. Give them a mode where they can watch numbers and bars go up. Let them feel good about leveling up and building something of their own. Section them off from something liek "tournament mode" where only the base characters can be used.

This is the only way forward.
Watering down the game for everyone ends up making no one happy.

And for christs sake, put a decent story mode in. Let the players who care get to know their characters better. Let them get attached.

 

[Mista Koo]

I agree. I'm waiting for a re-release before I buy it.

My hopes for SFVI is that they grow some balls and change some of the characters designs

They already did that in SFV. Only 1/3rd of the returning characters didn't get changed designs. And in the case of Ryu and Cammy I feel like their DLC costumes were meant to replace their original ones but marketing stepped in.

 

[Z..]

You literally cannot do charge moves "instantly", no matter how good you are. That's why they are charge moves. For an immediate example of how a control scheme that allows charge move inputs to be simplified can break the game, look at Capcom vs SNK 2's EO mode or, yeah, SFIV 3D (which disastrously allowed them in online play).

This hypothetical control scheme complicates things further when you take online play into account. If you don't segregate players using it into a separate pool of players, then you run into the issue of standard players having to go up against people who are more or less playing a different game / playing under a different ruleset. If you do, then you split the playerbase and make online a little less active for everyone.

Why are you being so resistant? Obviously charge characters would have a delay to their attacks, triggered at any point the players chose to release them but not before a certain "charge" was accrued. Are you choosing to ignore the fact that this is actually possible to implement without breaking anything simply because you don't want it to happen?

As for the second part, that is just not true. Why would you ever have to separate the players? The ruleset and the game is one and the same, it's merely the inputs that are different. Much like hitbox players have different inputs. If one is feeling handicapped by choosing either approach, one has but to switch. If your execution is on point, then it will be a non-issue. If it's not and you feel like the other players have an unfair advantage, it just goes to prove that execution barrier is indeed just that, a barrier.

 

[Prototype]

Sounds like Z.. Wants to put special moves on a cool down timer.

 

[Fraeon]

I really don't see how this is an issue. The move sets would remain the same regardless of your input method of choice. Again, high level play is NEVER about execution, you can always rely on hardcore players to nail the execution even on insanely tight links.

That's not true, though. Even the best SF5 players drop combos despite combos being the easiest to date. Check the Capcom Cup top 8. Nobody executes things perfectly.

Now is that a problem or not and is execution an interesting skill to have is another question. (Personally I enjoy hard things to do existing alongside the easy stuff)

 

[Dante83]

Re-releasing it won't save the game. It has to be a new sequel with all the proper modes and characters. For this entry, the casuals have left and all you have are the ones who wanted it anyway. Not many people bought it since april despite having the new offline modes, new characters and stuff...Supporting it till 2020 is not going to bring in new customers. It is going to be stale as hell.

 

[TheTylerRob]

Society will be living in the smoking crater of the post apocalypse and you guys will still be complaining that you can't do a damn dragon punch.

 

[ArjanN]

I really don't see how this is an issue. The move sets would remain the same regardless of your input method of choice. Again, high level play is NEVER about execution, you can always rely on hardcore players to nail the execution even on insanely tight links. Do you mean to say that beginner/medium level players using the simplified controls would have an advantage over beginner/medium level players using classic inputs? Because if that's the case, you'd always be free to change if you felt the classic method was holding you back. Is it dilution that you fear?

If you've watched any tournament SFV play you'll see that even high level players still drop combos quite often.

bruv mvci will sell less than sf init

This, and if it did sell more it would be due to the marvel license, not because of it being more casual friendly or anything.

 

[SilentRob]

I feel like a lot of complaints like these are people that don't want to actually practice and look at the game. They would rather complain and type this up than go into the game and simply practice the move. Rolling your thumb from down to right and pressing one button is not a hard thing to do. Esp if you make some effort.

Also for people that have a really hard time doing that there are charge characters waiting for you. (Which most people find harder than input based characters.)

I get how combos and things like links would be very hard to understand completely, but a shoryuken? Hadoken? No you just don't want to put in any effort and do cool stuff, and that is the wrong mentality to go into a competitive game with.

This is exactly the point. I don't want to have to practice to be able to play this game. I don't want to make an effort to learn it like learning a new hobby. I don't want to be competitive with it. I want to be able to throw it in and play through a nice looking, well presented, fun Arcade mode by myself, unlock cool costumes, gameplay modifiers, stages and maybe even characters with it. I can do that with games like Mortal Kombat. I can't with Street Fighter V. I have to learn it. I have to sit down and practice because, outside of being competitive, there is almost nothing to do. But I don't want to be competitive. This is the entire point of this conversation: There is a huge pool of players that don't want to be competitive online, but just want to be able to play the game by themselves or with friends on your couch. And for them an easier to grasp input mode you don't have to actively practice for to really get into would be great. That doesn't mean the whole game has to be like that. Devil May Cry 4 has one of the deepest fighting system in its genre...but there is also an option Automatic Mode, where the game handles most of the stuff for you. You can play Bayonetta 2 by clicking on your enemies on the Wii U Touchpad, and I know one or two people who only have fun with the game that way. And that's fine. Why not give the option?

 

[Wild Card]

Give them something appealing to do that isn't JUST fighting people online.

Guilty Gear does it, Tekken does it, Blaz Blue does it, Mortal Kombat does it, Killer Instinct does it.

Capcom are literally the only people making fighting games that don't do it (anymore).

I'd say the only time they ever really did it was Alpha 3, and all that was just World Tour, which was basically just a bunch of modifiers. I liked it don't get me wrong, but it was always an odd outlier for them to do.

 

[Z..]

Sounds like Z.. Wants to put special moves on a cool down timer.

I don't want anything to change the gameplay in the slightest. Said nothing about cooldowns, I don't want Rising Thunder 2.0. I merely want an alternative input method to be implemented because I'd both like to see the genre get more popular as it deserves to be and quite frankly I'm sick of this needless elitist mentality that is so pervasive within the community.

That's not true, though. Even the best SF5 players drop combos despite combos being the easiest to date.

Of course, there's always room for error, and that would not change, it happens in Melee matches too. The point is that the game does not revolve around execution, as it does for beginners. The games only really start being fun once execution is secondary. If you want the genre to bloom, you need to give people the option to get rid of it. Especially since it the execution barrier itself doesn't add anything positive to the game. Why is it better for having it?

 

[Fraeon]

I don't want anything to change the gameplay in the slightest. Said nothing about cooldowns, I don't want Rising Thunder 2.0. I merely want an alternative input method to be implemented because I'd both like to see the genre get more popular as it deserves to be and quite frankly I'm sick of this needless elitist mentality that is so pervasive within the community.

Being able to execute dragon punches with just a single button already changes things quite a bit. There'd essentially not be any way for you to miss an antiair if you do that and don't futz around with other things (by say, making dps slower to startup).

If the idea is to have both easy and standard ways of inputting things, at least the modes should be segregated in ranked search.

To be honest, the Rising Thunder approach to easy special moves is the most logical one at that point. You can do them just by pushing a button but not spam them because of the cooldown. This approach is actually okay and has its benefits.

Of course if you're making a Street Fighter without online and think about the balance just from a single player perspective, none of the above matters. But then you're alienating another bunch of people.

 

[Metal B]

Smash and Mortal Kombat have the perfect solutions to include casual gamers: Give them something to do, which isn't just 1vs1, and have options to balance out different player skills.

The one element everybody criticizes about Street Fighter 5 is the lag of single player modes. Casual players, who don't want to fight human players (because they lag the skill or simple don't like the challenge), need something, where they can achieve something on there own. Mortal Kombat shines in this regard. Not only with its good and long story-modus, but there also a lot of different modes to play and extra content to unlock. A casual player can simply have fun, fighting those CPUs and have a goal simple inside the game on his own.

On the other hand Smash Brothers shows, how casual- and core-players can play together: Items. options and hazards. Those are designed to be unbalanced and all based on a little luck. This isn't about being the better player, but to just have a laugh, if you got hit by something stupid, and a very good time. Smash allows you to create many wired scenarios, mini-games or funny rules. Or even take it completely serious. That's why Sakruai sees Smash as a "Party Game", Not matter if you just play with your 6friends or against a big crowd of people, you can have good time with many other people with different skill levels.

 

[Z..]

They just need robust single player modes like World Tour for the casuals and new players. Modes where you can "level" up and equip stupid shit like auto combo or whatever. Then make a separate VS mode where players can use their built up characters. Alpha 3 did it, even soul calibur did it.

I agree with the sentiment in this part of your post (though I vehemently disagree with the rest of your post) but feel casuals would be more inclined to enjoy something along the lines of MK9/X's story modes which have a cohesive overarching narrative connecting all the characters and spanning multiple chapters where you get to control all the chars one at a time for a few matches while unraveling the central plot.

That said, a world tour mode would be more than welcome too, it'd be a great place to go after the story mode once people had settled on a main they liked so they could hone their skills with the characters before jumping into the shark pit. Arcade mode couldn't hurt either, obviously.

 

[groansey]

What do you mean ruined SF for everyone else?
And when exactly did SF get "ruined"?
Because it seems like you are implying that older SF games were better in some way that's changed.
Do you really believe that someone who sucks at SF4 or 5 would all of a sudden become better while playing SF2?assuming SF2 wasn't "ruined".

No, but there were fewer special moves, change states and meters going on.

Because that's laughable. A person who can't play current SF would never, I mean never, have even a slight chance at the older games.

I don't follow how you'd reach that conclusion.

Anyway, on retaining and gaining players:

It doesn't matter how complex or difficult the game actually is. Even if it were singlebutton press moves, the people who suck at fighting games simply don't have the mind for it. Give them a mode where they can watch numbers and bars go up.

I think the fighting genre needs a shake-up, but in terms of where it's at right now I agree with you. Competitive play is generally not casual-friendly.

Compare it with something like Mario Kart, another big SNES franchise and that still seems to appeal to casuals and skilled players alike. And it's not impossible for the former to give the latter a run for their money. Plus losing isn't as frustrating.

You know what would help!? Take the Hadouken. I have that move down, but it will only come off 80% of the time. I could go to trial and look what I'm doing wrong but I bet it's a fraction out in either hitting all three directions or timing the punch. The game should recognise when special moves are slightly out and perform, for example, a weaker fireball. That would be much less frustrating for less skilled players than simply doing nothing or throwing a punch and leaving you exposed.

 

[EscapingJail]

This is exactly the point. I don't want to have to practice to be able to play this game. I don't want to make an effort to learn it like learning a new hobby. I don't want to be competitive with it. I want to be able to throw it in and play through a nice looking, well presented, fun Arcade mode by myself, unlock cool costumes, gameplay modifiers, stages and maybe even characters with it. I can do that with games like Mortal Kombat. I can't with Street Fighter V. I have to learn it. I have to sit down and practice because, outside of being competitive, there is almost nothing to do. But I don't want to be competitive. This is the entire point of this conversation: There is a huge pool of players that don't want to be competitive online, but just want to be able to play the game by themselves or with friends on your couch. And for them an easier to grasp input mode you don't have to actively practice for to really get into would be great. That doesn't mean the whole game has to be like that. Devil May Cry 4 has one of the deepest fighting system in its genre...but there is also an option Automatic Mode, where the game handles most of the stuff for you. You can play Bayonetta 2 by clicking on your enemies on the Wii U Touchpad, and I know one or two people who only have fun with the game that way. And that's fine. Why not give the option?

You make some good points here but I think the biggest problem is expectations VS reality. You don't go into dark souls thinking you will one shot the whole game and know everything off the bat. You will die and lose a lot from here you will either quit the game or spend more time learning the boss & game mechanics to get better.

It seems people in the thread expect Street Fighter to be a hand holding easy game. For anyone new to fighting games it's not and never has been, but unlike dark souls the bosses aren't the AI controlled enemy, the bosses in Street Fighter are other people. You still have to go through the same process and learn and adjust.

Regardless both games would not be as satisfying to win if there was no struggle to get to the point where you can win consistently. If you want to play the game and beat up AI that is fine have fun and do that, but in reality that is pretty much the same thing as booting up dark souls and only fighting normal non boss enemies. (Yeah my analogy isn't perfect but you get the idea.)

 

[Shotgun Kiss]

It most certainly doesn't deserve a re-release.

The decision to release what was essentially a beta product for full price was anti-consumer from the start, and that needs to be remembered.

People who bought it day 1 got screwed because there was a total lack of content, and by the time it reached a point where it could be considered a full game, it could be bought for cheaper.

If it gets a re-release, that's a further "fuck you" to the people who supported it by buying it on launch. Not to mention it would only encourage Capcom to pull this shit again in future, as they'd know they can sell the same game twice.

 

[Adam Sadler]

I think they should release a F2P edition honestly but make it so people who paid full price don't feel jipped(?) I guess the f2p edition only has 3 characters and you have to buy or unlock the rest

 

[TheTylerRob]

You know what would help!? Take the Hadouken. I have that move down, but it will only come off 80% of the time. I could go to trial and look what I'm doing wrong but I bet it's a fraction out in either hitting all three directions or timing the punch. The game should recognise when special moves are slightly out and perform, for example, a weaker fireball. That would be much less frustrating for less skilled players.

Input leniency has existed since SF3.....https://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2010/jan/11/understanding-input-leniency-street-fighter-4/

 

[Fraeon]

If it gets a re-release, that's a further "fuck you" to the people who supported it by buying it on launch. Not to mention it would only encourage Capcom to pull this shit again in future, as they'd know they can sell the same game twice.

How would it be if the release was just the base game and the content released thus far? I mean, GOTY style releases have been a thing for years now.

Of course if they did it like their old business model, then I'd agree.

 

[Hutchie]

@sir_stoo

Sfv does have input leniency and shortcuts so if you are slightly off the game will interpret what you are trying to do. If you are way off then it wont because the game thinks you are trying to do something else. Heck, even experts make execution errors. The only way to get better at fighting or any game in general is practice. However a simple mode like blazblue or gg may ease the pain slightly.

 

[Z..]

Being able to execute dragon punches with just a single button already changes things quite a bit. There'd essentially not be any way for you to miss an antiair if you do that and don't futz around with other things (by say, making dps slower to startup).

If the idea is to have both easy and standard ways of inputting things, at least the modes should be segregated in ranked search.

To be honest, the Rising Thunder approach to easy special moves is the most logical one at that point. You can do them just by pushing a button but not spam them because of the cooldown. This approach is actually okay and has its benefits.

Of course if you're making a Street Fighter without online and think about the balance just from a single player perspective, none of the above matters. But then you're alienating another bunch of people.

You will very frequently come across flowcharters who just literally spam srk over and over with ken in USF4 (haven't taken the leap into 5 yet, value not there atm especially since I'm more of an SNK fan these days and XIV is such fun), it's obviously not a hard move to spam or produce on ultra short notice, I don't see how the single directional input instead of two directional inputs is really gonna change anything at all. It's all a matter of making sure the attacks have the same efficiency and responsiveness across both input methods, really doesn't sound to hard. Balance the game around the current standard and just add in the appropriate concessions when fitting it to the secondary control scheme.

Segregating the modes would completely defeat the purpose, if you ask me.

Rising Thunder was an interesting experiment but it went too far the other way and ended up oversimplifying things to such a degree that it couldn't captivate people's interests. Shame, could've been a real gem, had alot of fun with the alpha, my gf loved it.

 

[kinggroin]

Give me a unique-per-character arcade mode that has a final boss, ending, and fight money when it's completed.


Hell for fun, make a SF2 mode that limits the move sets and rules to that old iteration for each character. Like a casual mode.


Then call the re-release Turbo or Super

 

[Fraeon]

(Yeah my analogy isn't perfect but you get the idea.)

Then again, "Should Dark Souls have an easy mode?" is another popular debate. Some do just really want to see the areas in the game wothout being inconvenienced by the enemies.

 

[EscapingJail]

Then again, "Should Dark Souls have an easy mode?" is another popular debate. Some do just really want to see the areas in the game wothout being inconvenienced by the enemies.

True, but isn't one of the biggest reasons that game is popular is because if the high difficulty?

 

[Zafir]

Then again, "Should Dark Souls have an easy mode?" is another popular debate. Some do just really want to see the areas in the game wothout being inconvenienced by the enemies.

I mean I don't think it's just that people don't want to be inconvenienced.

It's more some people just aren't good enough to get through it for whatever reason, but they'd like an easier mode so they can slowly build up that skill.

I mean those of us who have already played one, they aren't really that difficult because we know how to proceed and what to expect. Not really the same for other people. I've a friend who bought Dark Souls 3 but ended up just selling it because he said he just died over and over and wasn't making progress.

Not everyone likes, or even benefits from being dropped in the deep end. People learn differently.

 

[TheYanger]

It really doesn't have anything to do with the ease of the game. They can easily offer an 'easy input' mode and have no effect on anything, they have before, that's not like a hurdle for Capcom to cross. It's simply lack of things to do. It's not "Oh you casual scrubs just don't want to practice' - OF FUCKING COURSE WE DONT. The people that buy these games in droves don't bother to play competitively, and not for lack of trying, but for complete lack of desire. I play plenty of other games at a high level that fighting game players don't, and I don't care that they don't, so why are some in these kinds of threads always so resistant to the fact that non-hardcore Fighting Game players enjoy these games, but want more to do than just go into online and lose?

It doesn't need to be a crazy 'campaign' mode with a story like MKX or anything (though that's certainly a plus), just something that is fun to play that you can do alone, arcade mode is good, story modes are good, shit like soul calibur style modes or the Alpha 3 world tour? Amazing. Better tutorials are great, and certainly welcome (The EX series 'expert mode' was actually my favorite fighting game extra ever, it was a good teaching tool for combos and whatnot, and was challenging and fun), but remember that the thing that keeps people from these games isn't just the learning curve, it's that they're not interested in climbing that mountain in the first place. Most of the playerbase is content not to summit Everest, but to just visit base camp 1 and see the mountain and what it's like there, and they want some things to do along the way.

Number of fighting games I've bought in my lifetime: Probably around 25. Number of fighting games I've played online in my lifetime: Probably just SF4. Desire to buy SF5: 0. I am the market that they lost with this game. I play arcade modes, I unlock shit to unlock, I go through the scripted practice sessions for fun, and I play local vs with my friends when we hang out. There only needs to be like 10 hours of single player content (not counting replaying arcade over and over for no reward but just for fun, and not counting vs with friends) in all of that.

 

[Fraeon]

.

Sure you can mash srk but actually doing it as a reaction to a jump is not as trivial because of the time it takes to input it. People are complaining jab antiairs are too easy to do and the guaranteed damage is piddly compared to DP.

Why would simplifying the DP to down+punch not be oversimplified while the Rising Thunder model of doing them is? It's the same thing but at least RT comes with a cooldown so they're not completely stupid.

 

[HardRojo]

It most certainly doesn't deserve a re-release.

The decision to release what was essentially a beta product for full price was anti-consumer from the start, and that needs to be remembered.

People who bought it day 1 got screwed because there was a total lack of content, and by the time it reached a point where it could be considered a full game, it could be bought for cheaper.

If it gets a re-release, that's a further "fuck you" to the people who supported it by buying it on launch. Not to mention it would only encourage Capcom to pull this shit again in future, as they'd know they can sell the same game twice.

Except the type of re-release we're talking about would be different from how it was done in SF4. This time the original release wouldn't be rendered useless as it would still get patched and upgraded. A re-release is the only thing Capcom can do to have a shot at the game bouncing back, if it works it'll be beneficial to all parties involved as we'll get more players and a better supported platform in the long run.

 

[Ucchedavāda]

You know what would help!? Take the Hadouken. I have that move down, but it will only come off 80% of the time. I could go to trial and look what I'm doing wrong but I bet it's a fraction out in either hitting all three directions or timing the punch. The game should recognise when special moves are slightly out and perform, for example, a weaker fireball. That would be much less frustrating for less skilled players than simply doing nothing or throwing a punch and leaving you exposed.

The game already does something like that, which is why stuff like down-forward, down-forward + punch gives you a shoryuken. However, the more shortcuts or unprecise inputs like these that there are, the bigger your chance of getting the wrong result when doing a move or even when not trying to do a move. Just think of accidental shoryukens when you wanted a hadoken, typically resulting in eating a big, fat punish. It just ends up adding to the execution barrier, since your input have to be that cleaner in order to avoid outcomes that you did not intend.

 

[kinggroin]

Then again, "Should Dark Souls have an easy mode?" is another popular debate. Some do just really want to see the areas in the game wothout being inconvenienced by the enemies.

That's a pretty assuming thing to say.

Perhaps, and this may sound a bit radical, some gamers just aren't good enough. Perhaps, some don't have the time to improve enough.

Easy mode in no way cheapens the accomplishments of gamers playing on normal or hard.

 

[Chie Satonaka]

yep. Street Fighter 2 in all of its iterations did that.

It's kinda crazy thinking about the difference between when I was playing SF2 in arcades and now. Fighting games are so much more complicated.

The terminology alone is enough to frighten people.

 

[Z..]

You make some good points here but I think the biggest problem is expectations VS reality. You don't go into dark souls thinking you will one shot the whole game and know everything off the bat. You will die and lose a lot from here you will either quit the game or spend more time learning the boss & game mechanics to get better.

It seems people in the thread expect Street Fighter to be a hand holding easy game. For anyone new to fighting games it's not and never has been, but unlike dark souls the bosses aren't the AI controlled enemy, the bosses in Street Fighter are other people. You still have to go through the same process and learn and adjust.

Regardless both games would not be as satisfying to win if there was no struggle to get to the point where you can win consistently. If you want to play the game and beat up AI that is fine have fun and do that, but in reality that is pretty much the same thing as booting up dark souls and only fighting normal non boss enemies. (Yeah my analogy isn't perfect but you get the idea.)

I feel the DS analogy is not really a good one because you're never fighting the controls. One needs only play the game for a couple of hours and it naturally teaches you to be patient and alert at all times. The process is far from being the same.

Fighting games are rather unique in the sense that I really can't think of any other genre in gaming that has such an upfront physical barrier and such a consistently persistent one, too.

MOBAs are hell to learn until you get your head around the mechanics and learn the game, but it's never really challenging in the slightest to execute.

Some competitive RTS can be quite demanding too but it really boils down to your micromanagement skills rather than perfecting your ability to perform the same combination over and over again. It's more about adaptive dexterity in general and less about learning specific intricate patterns and repeating them ad infinitum.

The struggle to get to the point where you can win consistently is still there even in simplified fighters like Smash or Jump Ultimate Stars. Execution is very rarely an issue in Smash and I still get my ass consistently handed to me.
Strategic/reactive improvement and execution dexterity are two different things and they are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Navid]

I've always wondered what it would be like if a fighting game made special moves easy to perform but added cooldown timers to them?

That way it might be more about positioning and reading the opponent instead of mechanical execution...

 

[myco666]

I really don't see how this is an issue. The move sets would remain the same regardless of your input method of choice. Again, high level play is NEVER about execution, you can always rely on hardcore players to nail the execution even on insanely tight links. Do you mean to say that beginner/medium level players using the simplified controls would have an advantage over beginner/medium level players using classic inputs? Because if that's the case, you'd always be free to change if you felt the classic method was holding you back. Is it dilution that you fear?

But high level play is about execution too? You see dropped combos in tournaments pretty often. I really don't get where this idea comes from that fighting games are just purely about strategy at high level.

And what I mean is something like Guile. If SB is just foward + punch and FK is up + kick he would probably be the most broken character in the game. You would really need to balance those moves somehow if they were executed like that.

 

[Hutchie]

It really doesn't have anything to do with the ease of the game. They can easily offer an 'easy input' mode and have no effect on anything, they have before, that's not like a hurdle for Capcom to cross. It's simply lack of things to do. It's not "Oh you casual scrubs just don't want to practice' - OF FUCKING COURSE WE DONT. The people that buy these games in droves don't bother to play competitively, and not for lack of trying, but for complete lack of desire. I play plenty of other games at a high level that fighting game players don't, and I don't care that they don't, so why are some in these kinds of threads always so resistant to the fact that non-hardcore Fighting Game players enjoy these games, but want more to do than just go into online and lose?

It doesn't need to be a crazy 'campaign' mode with a story like MKX or anything (though that's certainly a plus), just something that is fun to play that you can do alone, arcade mode is good, story modes are good, shit like soul calibur style modes or the Alpha 3 world tour? Amazing. Better tutorials are great, and certainly welcome (The EX series 'expert mode' was actually my favorite fighting game extra ever, it was a good teaching tool for combos and whatnot, and was challenging and fun), but remember that the thing that keeps people from these games isn't just the learning curve, it's that they're not interested in climbing that mountain in the first place. Most of the playerbase is content not to summit Everest, but to just visit base camp 1 and see the mountain and what it's like there, and they want some things to do along the way.

Number of fighting games I've bought in my lifetime: Probably around 25. Number of fighting games I've played online in my lifetime: Probably just SF4. Desire to buy SF5: 0. I am the market that they lost with this game. I play arcade modes, I unlock shit to unlock, I go through the scripted practice sessions for fun, and I play local vs with my friends when we hang out. There only needs to be like 10 hours of single player content (not counting replaying arcade over and over for no reward but just for fun, and not counting vs with friends) in all of that.

Sfv has a story mode, granted it could use more offline stuff but offline stuff it does have. Capcom say they are looking into arcade mode but have been silent about it thus far.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

I've always wondered what it would be like if a fighting game made special moves easy to perform but added cooldown timers to them?

That way it might be more about positioning and reading the opponent instead of mechanical execution...

Rising Thunder.