Reizo Ryuu
Member
Today I learned a bunch of people equates to a universal common consensus.
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Ultra David feels Street Fighter 5 needs an entire re-release
- Thread starter PadWarrior
- Start date
Today I learned a bunch of people equates to a universal common consensus.
so i see this thread is looping in discussions like every other SFV thread. looks like we're in the "people only play this for money and cuz it's SF" stage. Lol, idk what to say to all that shit. If that is true (which I really don't think it is) I feel sorry for all these people. your own fault for continuing to play something you don't enjoy. don't bring the money crap because FGC is poverty esports and 99% of players can't make a living off SF.
Mortal Kombat has a hook. Violence and fatalites. Lets not pretend thats not the main hooks besides it great variety of modes (which SF needs)
SF's hook was its gameplay. Nothing else.
MK could go back to MK II gameplay and still be mega popular.
And sf4 sold millions because...
Yeah, if all of these people who apparently hate SF but just play it because people are playing it went to other games, those games would instantly have more robust communities.
Don't take my word for it. Go out and ask the general FGC from around here what the gameplay reception has been for SFV. Pretty much everyone of them will tell you what I've been saying. Ask people from FGC not around here. They'll probably tell you something similar. There was very real and large backlash against the gameplay not too long after launch.
If you paid attention to the little blog Combofiend put out after CapCup it actually addressed some of the specific issues players were talking about. Other information that was pushed afterwards also reflects that. So even Capcom is recognizing where they made some mistakes on that front.
Idk what else to tell you, but that's been the history of the first year of the game. tons and tons of issues all around. Everybody is hoping they salvage at least.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
I won't, show us some actual receipts before you go and claim your anecdotes as facts.
"Just because it's Street Fighter" has a lot more to it than just money. It's a really complicated thing that makes that idea a reality.
Look at twitter accounts of most pro players and that's all you need really? Like you have to live under a rock or never interact with the FGC ever to have missed it all.
I dont know. Maybe it was like a decade since the last SF and even longer for those who didnt even know about SF3? That and vanilla SF4 was pretty cool with hidden characters, arcade mode, and such.
Of course each iteration sold much worse that nostalgia faded.
Or maybe SF has hit its peak with Vanilla 4 and there is nothing anyone can do to boost that. Very possible as well if you think about it.
what about SF x T that's a game people actually hated and it showed.
That was a bit weird because it wasn't a mainline title, and there was a thriving mainline title (SF4) people were extremely ready to fall back to. Right now, if you want to play Street Fighter in a remotely competitive way, your only option is really SFV. So it's a very different situation in general.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
You're trying way too hard now.
A few twitter accounts are still only anecdotes, unless you personally interviewed all 5000+ evo entrants, and all the others in other regions/countries unable to travel, your "universal consensus" is just anecdotal and worthless.
I did actually personally interview a lot of the best Street Fighter players and analysts in the country. I keep an eye on the community more or less daily because it's part of my job to do so. I'm pretty confident in saying there has been near universal criticism from the competitive community. I think you should really start digging through your FGC stuff if your'e going to be questioning it.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
"a lot".
Doesn't WNF get like 100+ entrants at weeklies? SF5 had 5000+ entrants at Evo, it's bigger than ever. Also what about Option Select Fighter 4 and vortex city. ultra comeback fighter, all very real and prevalent criticisms of 4. SF5 gets a blast of just jump and anti air lights are too good, but acting like it's anymore indicative of the game not being good is not too convincing.
nope
Well, the part about WNF is not true.
The part about SF4 was definitely true though. It also definitely had some stagnation and not so great things going on with it.
SFV at Evo also had lots of numbers, which was expected before launch. That was always going to happen whether or not the competitive community liked it. The question is whether or not that will be continued growth. I'm willing to bet that the initial spike won't be met for a bit unless the game improves, but where will still be growth. It's hard to ignore the esports push.
At the end of the day between Capcom and other outlets pushing the game it will survive. That's not a question in the current FGC. That doesn't make a lot of the criticism go away though, and it doesn't change the position that Capcom is in when it comes to changing the way the community looks at the gameplay. Long term they are going to need to make it a game that has way bigger legs on that front if actual esports oriented companies like Riot are going to start getting into the mix.
It's all really interesting actually. I'm rooting for Capcom because I love the Street Fighter series, but to say they aren't in kind of a hard place right now on all fronts is not the truth.
Edit: About growth stuff, when I talk to some TOs there have been some undercurrents of people trying to figure out how to meet the current demand if growth doesn't keep up. Things right now in the competitive scene are not hitting projections on most fronts, despite those big numbers. They aren't enough to keep it sustainable, and the numbers are slowing down quickly. It's all very new and and can be turned around, but the onus is on Capcom to actually do it.
I mean you can be indignant all you want but I don't see you posting up credentials or anything to say I'm not telling the truth.
irfaanator
Banned
Debate between random "fighting game player" gaffer vs gaffer who's interviewed high level people and actually plays? I think I know who's opinion I'd consider
Reizo Ryuu
Member
lol indignant...I'm not the one making claims, you are.
Present the receipts of those 5000+ evo entrants, and those that can't travel, having universally panned sf5's gameplay, until you do, you are just presenting anecdotes.
Present the receipts of those 5000+ evo entrants, and those that can't travel, having universally panned sf5's gameplay, until you do, you are just presenting anecdotes.
I'm not saying critiscm isn't valid, I'm saying those things have always existed no matter the entry in the series, and does not make the game any worse than 4, those opinions have equal weight, it all depends on hou much you identify with them. To your point, I think it would be prudent of Capcom to address concerns and issues, I think they should do that for a better game for everyone. However, I think how your presenting the way the community views the game seem a bit overblown, to be honest. We had our 8 frames memes, some reports from PSX seem the game is down to 4 frames (possibly hearsay) . The meta of the game has changed so those that are winning aren't the ones going nuts. So I think capcom has done a lot of good on that front, and there is a lot more they can do, I hope they do, in the future.
Coming from my own perspective, the numbers that tourneys are looking for has a coorelation with the sheer number of events, trying to keep up with them all, speaking for myself, is a bit exhasting, especially getting 2-3 events on a weekend. I think if numbers are what they are looking for, they should trim so events off of the next Pro Tour season. But yes, hopes are high and I hope for future success.
I would say it's overblown if it weren't for the way the game released. The game doesn't have a lot of infrastructure to support itself outside of just vs mode and the major tournaments. It's kind of the perfect storm of issues:
-Infrastructure is poor outside of CPT, and CPT being entirely offline isn't great
-casual fans were turned off by the shit release with nothing on it
-hardcore players were turned off by the gameplay failures
It all kind of adds up to this point where a lot of different groups aren't satisfied. It's on Capcom to build all those fronts up again, which again is totally possible. I think UltraDavid is spot on in saying it needs a soft relaunch.
-Relaunch the game with the features and support it needs to be more viable online
-Fix up the gameplay and technical issues so the higher levels and core community are satisfied. You're going to need the trickle down
-Keep making large partners to make CPT awesome. CPT was actually okay this year.
-Start to create and support content portals. SF sticks out as an esport without a content base similar to others.
-Infrastructure is poor outside of CPT, and CPT being entirely offline isn't great
-casual fans were turned off by the shit release with nothing on it
-hardcore players were turned off by the gameplay failures
It all kind of adds up to this point where a lot of different groups aren't satisfied. It's on Capcom to build all those fronts up again, which again is totally possible. I think UltraDavid is spot on in saying it needs a soft relaunch.
-Relaunch the game with the features and support it needs to be more viable online
-Fix up the gameplay and technical issues so the higher levels and core community are satisfied. You're going to need the trickle down
-Keep making large partners to make CPT awesome. CPT was actually okay this year.
-Start to create and support content portals. SF sticks out as an esport without a content base similar to others.
The Lone Dragon
Member
I'm surprised that a game that has received so many negative threads here...is still relevant enough to keep receiving negative threads 10 months later.
I also love how SF5's gameplay is now supposedly "universally panned" according to some folks in this thread...
...WHEN THE SOURCE OF THIS VERY THREAD CLEARLY SAYS THAT ULTRADAVID THINKS THE GAMEPLAY IS "FANTASTIC".
So, let me get this straight...the NEGATIVE part of Ultradavid's comments are thread worthy. The POSITIVE part is trivialized. Gotcha. "Universally panned" indeed.
I'd like to remind everyone that Capcom Cup just finished getting a peak of ~140k concurrent viewers. For a fighting game, that's HUGE. Canada Cup and SCR, 2 of the more recent premiers had MORE entrants than SF4 last year. Viewership was also great.
While there's room for improvement, let's not try to pretend that competitive interest in SF5 has been "poor". The deathbed hyperbole is getting old.
I also love how SF5's gameplay is now supposedly "universally panned" according to some folks in this thread...
...WHEN THE SOURCE OF THIS VERY THREAD CLEARLY SAYS THAT ULTRADAVID THINKS THE GAMEPLAY IS "FANTASTIC".
So, let me get this straight...the NEGATIVE part of Ultradavid's comments are thread worthy. The POSITIVE part is trivialized. Gotcha. "Universally panned" indeed.
I'd like to remind everyone that Capcom Cup just finished getting a peak of ~140k concurrent viewers. For a fighting game, that's HUGE. Canada Cup and SCR, 2 of the more recent premiers had MORE entrants than SF4 last year. Viewership was also great.
While there's room for improvement, let's not try to pretend that competitive interest in SF5 has been "poor". The deathbed hyperbole is getting old.
The game could use a few things to spice things up in order to launch a new disc format perhaps.
I would love to see every character get a different V trigger to pick from. Supers aren't a big deal like Ultras in SF4, but V trigger could dynamically shift how people approach match ups and really shake up the tier lists.
Imagine if Gief V Trigger was 3 green hands he can use that if they hit cause knock down right in front of him? That gives him 3 chances to mix you up, instead of spinning like an idiot like he does now.
The game could also use a fresh look at online. It needs seasons akin to other popular games out now like Overwatch. Ranked seasons with rewards would encourage more constant play for more casual folks of SF5.
Lastly I'd like to see more characters with hard to do combos. Not every character needs to be dumb easy combos like Balrog and Ken---the C. Vipers of the world can exist. It makes me appreciate it more as a spectator sport when someone consistently does things my execution deprived self cannot.
I would love to see every character get a different V trigger to pick from. Supers aren't a big deal like Ultras in SF4, but V trigger could dynamically shift how people approach match ups and really shake up the tier lists.
Imagine if Gief V Trigger was 3 green hands he can use that if they hit cause knock down right in front of him? That gives him 3 chances to mix you up, instead of spinning like an idiot like he does now.
The game could also use a fresh look at online. It needs seasons akin to other popular games out now like Overwatch. Ranked seasons with rewards would encourage more constant play for more casual folks of SF5.
Lastly I'd like to see more characters with hard to do combos. Not every character needs to be dumb easy combos like Balrog and Ken---the C. Vipers of the world can exist. It makes me appreciate it more as a spectator sport when someone consistently does things my execution deprived self cannot.
OmegaTreeFish
Banned
I agree with most of this. Supers certainly dont need to be changed but yeah optional v-triggers / v-skills could be great.
My personal hopes in addition to what we already know about season 2 are:
- Remove jab anti airs. They just make certain characters anoying as fuck.
- change how ranked works. I would like something closer to KI where if you go up a rank you stay there. As it is now 80% of the player base just float between bronze and silver. Its almost meaningless until you hit gold or something. Then at the end of 1-3 months give FM rewards to everyone for what bracket they had hit and then reset in some manner.
- Fix battle lounge. Right now its pointless in the UK. Never see anyone of a connection above 1 bar in there.
- make casual mode ignor rank.
- add additional casual modes. I loved team battle back in sf ex. 5 team battle all random select would be great.
As well as this i wpuld like to see some decemt offline content to. Proper arcade mode, world tour type thing, infinite survival with better AI balance and maybe add gimick rounds in there. Just fun dumb shit like MK does.
But i personally really like the core gameplay. Just needs some tweaks like all fighting games always need. Opinions and all that.
Needs more puke.
Needs more Sagat
Failing that, needs to not feel like neutral is designed by a robot.
There are still Sagat rumors out there from credible sources. Down to his special moves and stuff (
). Not sure what's going on with him.
Also, if you follow the game on Steamspy, it's not moving any units at all. It was 50% off for a while, they announced things, Capcom Cup happened...nope, nothing. It's been hovering around 200k for months.
http://steamspy.com/app/310950
doesn't have a fireball!?
Also, if you follow the game on Steamspy, it's not moving any units at all. It was 50% off for a while, they announced things, Capcom Cup happened...nope, nothing. It's been hovering around 200k for months.
http://steamspy.com/app/310950
Everytime I click on this thread, this is what comes to mind. There are several factors that played together why I dropped the game so fast, but in the end it comes down that it wasn't fun to just jump in and fuck around with.
All those things you mentioned are simply hypothetical and "possible" and not at all realistic and the fact that you are stating the game needs Sagat, Sakura and an "unlockable" Akuma to sell the game highlights how out of touch you are with the audience. They have already learned from it's launch and have improved the game since it's launch and will continue to do so in the future (like other games such as FFXIV, Rocket League etc) without the need to release another game. Makes no business sense whatsoever.
I think you need to look at the bigger picture though. A fighting game engine actually isn't everything. You can have the best fighting engine in the world, but if you aren't hitting your sales goals that's a problem. Now as much as the more hardcore players out there might truly appreciate that great fighting system, the game still needs the support of a healthy player-base to keep the game relevant and thriving so that this great engine can live on and hopefully continue to evolve.
Ideally you not only have a fantastic fighting game engine, but a fantastic well-rounded game built around that engine. That way you maximize your audience. Capcom is now trying to build up the rest of the game to match the quality of their fighting engine, but they did their game and their engine a disservice with that sparse launch.
I say all of this as someone that enjoys the core of SFV and wasn't bothered by what it didn't launch with.
I can 100% understand how someone that is passionate about fighters might look at the situation and say hey that's cool, give me this great engine first and then bring on the rest...the engine is #1. The problem is by prioritizing the engine and going bare bones with the rest of the game you run the risk of missing out on a chunk of sales and leaving money on the table while also negatively impacting you player-base (less players).
But, at the end of the day Street Fighter is Street Fighter and it'll continue doing its thing and people will continue playing it. I just wish they had set themselves up for success from the start because I really, really love the franchise and want to see it do extremely well.
Also, I see people taking issue with the fact that people are still negative on SFV because it's come a long way since launch, but I think that goes to show that Capcom may not be able to separate their game from this negative perception no matter how much they fix, which goes back to UltraDavid's point about a re-release.
The Lone Dragon
Member
Actually, it's moving units...just slowly. But, since Steam let's you freely return games, the cumulative number doesn't increase as fast as it would without the free returns.
Same as with MKX: http://steamspy.com/app/307780 Peaks and returns. Peaks and returns. MKX also had a sale a couple weeks ago, and sales didn't budge at all. Total owners is back down to what it was 3 weeks ago.
That's not a SF5 thing. That's a Steam culture thing, thanks to free returns.
SENPAIatLARGE
Banned
Until Seth Killian and Riot make their move. FGC will never be poverty again.
I learned months ago not to really read any thread about SFV on the Gaming side. People act like it murdered their entire family and their only course of revenge is to act like its garbage.
UcchedavÄda
Member
I would expect the same pattern on other platforms, but unfortunately only Valve makes this kind of information accessible, so it is impossible to compare.
EDIT: I'm an idiot. I misread the links as SteamCharts.
The peaks on those plots are simply due to the uncertainty in the estimate of current owners. SteamSpy does not actually query every single profile on Steam, but instead queries a random subset of profiles and estimates the number of owners on Steam from that subset.
GordonHalfman
Member
Bless you sir.
Funny how most people that respond to this come out with games from +10 years ago or throw the "look at that fatality" game...
Meanwhile, the other fighting games franchise aren't doing well neither...
Did SFV mess up launch? Yes. But why the hell people keep pretending the game would have sell a tone when other games with more content aren't?
The mainstream market doesn't care about Fighting Games as a genre anymore, simple as that. Other games in other genres that fucked up their launch as big as SFV and still manage to sell a ton within their first week. If there was a big interest to begin with, the sales would have been bigger than they were despite the problems.
Besides Smash (Different fighting game), MK (Due fatalities and all that) and IP based games (Injustice, Marvel) can sell well this days. And in the last 2 case, I'll like to see if the next installments are able to come close to the sales that the predecessors have made (Marvel probably can since it's been long time since 3 came out).
I'm positive Tekken 7 would not sell well neither. But people will give the excuse that the game has been to much time in development for consoles...
Needs more puke.
Booyhaa.
David isn't wrong to say this at all. I think everyone wants this game to have a healthier perception out in the wild. I mean, short answer - Capcom blew it. I'm right there with Davids thoughts , I don't want to have to constantly say "it feels great to play but..." there shouldn't be a "but". There was never a "but" with SF4 because like it or lump it , the game felt complete when it came out , it simply got better with SUPER.
So the question is , what should Capcom do to change this perception ? Well, any future retail release needs to have a new name to make it seem like a new product. This , as David mentions , can totally be a free (Mandatory) update to the current version to keep with the "only 1 version" gameplan from the begining.
BUT, the issue here is that there still isn't enough content to justify a new release. Right now , there still isn't a proper arcade mode (just replace the character story junk with a traditional 8 stage arcade mode with a rival fight and a boss fight). We all know this is coming , a future disc based re-release will NEED to have this. The current training / challenge stuff feels unfinished, all the stuff you need to know is there but 80% of it is in video form only. Make actual lessons you can practice and take the current challenges and make them combo training. It's a small difference but one I feel could help people pick the game up that much easier.
So - with all this stuff probably getting peppered throughout 2017 including bumping the roster up to 28 characters - I think it doesn't make sense for a full relaunch to happen until everything is finished. Even if that means the game doesn't receive one until September or , given MVCi's release - 2018. Just before the start of season 3.
There is an alternative path here too - a "demo version" that acts the same as the free 2 play version of KI. The main game becomes free to download but it only comes with a couple of rotating characters and 1 stage with none of the single player content. So basically you can train , play online and that's it. They then split elements into piecemeal downloads - 19.99 gets you the remainder of the base game , 19.99 for all of season 1 and since it's new - 29.99 for season 2. More people might give it a whirl if they could try it out for a bit at no cost.
Honestly though, I just want DLC costumes/stages and such to be cheaper , easier to buy. 5$ for 1 outfit is goddamn highway robbery.
So the question is , what should Capcom do to change this perception ? Well, any future retail release needs to have a new name to make it seem like a new product. This , as David mentions , can totally be a free (Mandatory) update to the current version to keep with the "only 1 version" gameplan from the begining.
BUT, the issue here is that there still isn't enough content to justify a new release. Right now , there still isn't a proper arcade mode (just replace the character story junk with a traditional 8 stage arcade mode with a rival fight and a boss fight). We all know this is coming , a future disc based re-release will NEED to have this. The current training / challenge stuff feels unfinished, all the stuff you need to know is there but 80% of it is in video form only. Make actual lessons you can practice and take the current challenges and make them combo training. It's a small difference but one I feel could help people pick the game up that much easier.
So - with all this stuff probably getting peppered throughout 2017 including bumping the roster up to 28 characters - I think it doesn't make sense for a full relaunch to happen until everything is finished. Even if that means the game doesn't receive one until September or , given MVCi's release - 2018. Just before the start of season 3.
There is an alternative path here too - a "demo version" that acts the same as the free 2 play version of KI. The main game becomes free to download but it only comes with a couple of rotating characters and 1 stage with none of the single player content. So basically you can train , play online and that's it. They then split elements into piecemeal downloads - 19.99 gets you the remainder of the base game , 19.99 for all of season 1 and since it's new - 29.99 for season 2. More people might give it a whirl if they could try it out for a bit at no cost.
Honestly though, I just want DLC costumes/stages and such to be cheaper , easier to buy. 5$ for 1 outfit is goddamn highway robbery.
Gunslinger
Member
As much as people hate the idea but this game can really benefit from a super version. In the level of sfiv to ssfiv. Not just a release of sfv+season 1. Big changes to gameplay. Add in another v-skill and v-trigger for every character. More stages etc. And a f2p version is desperately needed if this game wants to hang out side by side with upcoming big releases like mvc4 and injustice.
Oh and this game needs a ps4 pro patch. Fix 30 fps stages. Update the graphics a bit on consoles for ps4 pro. I am sure they can up the visuals a bit and still retain 60 fps on consoles.
Oh and this game needs a ps4 pro patch. Fix 30 fps stages. Update the graphics a bit on consoles for ps4 pro. I am sure they can up the visuals a bit and still retain 60 fps on consoles.