Support NeoGAF

[D Bo Chops]

Everyone is blaming MS since there are several journalists and other sources, all saying the same thing - that isn't likely to be some sort of collusion / coincidence.

More so, this has happened before, several times with MS in particular

Sure, but i'll reserve judgement until i hear more than just "Microsoft canceled a game". I wanted Scalebound to happen more than anyone, but everytime i saw it, it looked like shit, which COULD have had something to do with the devs, not just MS.

 

[GeordieMark]

Everyone is blaming MS since there are several journalists and other sources, all saying the same thing - that isn't likely to be some sort of collusion / coincidence.

More so, this has happened before, several times with MS in particular

Everyone always rushes to blame the publisher when this stuff happens. I've seen first-hand more than one instance of a dev mismanaging a project, or deceiving the publisher, leading to a cancellation. Some publishers are a bit overbearing for a reason. They've had their fingers burned in the past and it's expensive to resolve these situations. It usually means extending deadlines or throwing more people and money at the project. People keep mentioning an example which I know for a fact isn't a case of the greedy publisher fucking over the poor dev. I work in game dev and I've seen fuck ups on both sides that have resulted in canned games.

 

[Outrun]

Everyone is blaming MS since there are several journalists and other sources, all saying the same thing - that isn't likely to be some sort of collusion / coincidence.

More so, this has happened before, several times with MS in particular

But the "journalists" are simply not following any sort of professionalism and instead are making sideways comments on the matter.

They should write the story if they have the facts and protect their sources.

Instead, they are tweeting that they are getting ill due to what MS did... I don't give a damn if they are getting sick. They are not the story.

Apparently, this is too much to ask.

 

[kiuo]

Apologies if it has been brought up already but... did y'all bring up the time MS nearly killed Obsidian? They were working on an Xbone launch title when MS canceled it. Resulted in mass layoffs and nearly killed the studio. Not sure on the details as I only heard it from those who were directly impacted.

Anyway just seemed relevant to this thread.

It's in the op

Saw this on twitter:

That last pic with the mic dropped and the words "This is just the beginning" cracked me up

 

[Gestault]

The dev should have hired better lawyers.

I don't care if you are a small company, you are dealing with killers, who will maximize their advantage in all contractual aspects if you allow them to.

The idea of a studio not having a capable lawyer involved in that level of agreement is why it sounds unrealistic. It's not even a case of killers. If that account is accurate (the idea that they had a specific contract for a multi-player title that was then somehow unilaterally changed to include single player as well on the same budget, and they said "ok"), the studio's issues would be all but self-inflicted.

It would mean agreeing to a project they couldn't handle on money that wouldn't cover their costs for a scope they didn't plan for, with no contract protecting their interests. I can't believe any studio is capable of that stupidity.

 

[jmdajr]

From an article on FF7 that talks about Mistwalker, Lost Odyssey, and MS.

http://www.polygon.com/a/final-fantasy-7

Hiroshi Kawai

Character programmer, Square Japan

Unreal, in terms of graphics, it's very capable and very, very impressive. But it was still essentially in alpha stage when they were trying to push it onto us. ... And even the devs [at Epic], their attitude — I'm not saying this with any disrespect, but it was one of those, ”If you don't like it, don't use it" [situations]. Their devs were very clear from the get-go, saying, ”This is what Unreal's made for, and if it fits your needs, great. If it doesn't, you're on your own. If you need documentation, read the source code. If you need help, write us in English." ...

And while we were making a little progress on that front, we were running into personnel issues in terms of trying to hire people. Microsoft has this interesting sort of hiring scheme where, even if you say you had $100 million in your budget, you would be capped to this thing called ”headcount" and it would be completely independent of your budget. So you may only have a headcount for two full-time employees even though you have a massive budget, and you could not increase that. You'd have to essentially trade horses with some other team who's willing to give up their headcount, and even then it's still a precious commodity.

Yoshihiro Maruyama

Executive vice president, Square U.S.

We couldn't use Microsoft employees to complete the projects because their overhead was very expensive. So we had no choice but to create a separate company. ... It was a paper company just to hire developers.


Hiroshi Kawai

Character programmer, Square Japan

So it came to this point where it was like ... we just weren't going to get the people we needed within Microsoft, so it would be better to spin the team off into a separate company. But creating a company from scratch would be risky, so we would like to have somebody ‘sponsor.' And that's where they found Cavia, who was willing to take the team on and sort of be a sibling of our team. [Even then] it was very difficult to convince people to move over.

So despite having this new company ... we were just calling it NewCo at the time, before it became feelplus — and although we had this shell of the company to work with, we still couldn't get our devs. And I don't know who got wind of it first, but ... there was a role-playing game that was being developed by a company called Nautilus, who was a subsidiary of ... Aruze, who was primarily into pachinko games in Japan. ...

I think they were no longer interested in maintaining that team. They were saying, ”If anybody's interested in taking this team on, we're here to listen." And they had a full dev team there, and the dev team had been making role-playing games at that point. So the powers that be thought, ”Hey, why not just combine those guys with existing Microsoft guys and we now have double the capacity, so look out."

Well, unfortunately it didn't, because the guys from Nautilus — I guess they were kind of given the cold shoulder. I mean, they were essentially being kicked out on the street, although they didn't end up being on the street because we picked them up so quickly, but they were kind of treated that way, so they were very suspicious of the guys from Microsoft. And especially the devs were absolutely not interested in using Unreal. They were saying, ”You cannot trust code written by a third party. We have no idea what's in it. We won't be able to customize it." Yadda, yadda, yadda. So we have 10 engineers from Nautilus, 10 plus engineers from Microsoft, and they're not talking to each other.

fun times

 

[kadotsu]

But the "journalists" are simply not following any sort of professionalism and instead are making sideways comments on the matter.

They should write the story if they have the facts and protect their sources.

Instead, they are tweeting that they are getting ill due to what MS did... I don't give a damn if they are getting sick. They are not the story.

Apparently, this is too much to ask.

You are mistaking their personal twitter accounts with the publication they work for.

 

[Gestault]

You are mistaking their personal twitter accounts with the publication they work for.

I think they're saying if the information is reliable enough to spread via innuendo, it should be good enough to report on. The entire history of news reporting is a demonstration of ways to report information without harming sources.

If someone is claiming to have specific-enough details on the behind-the-scenes of what happened, they should report those details in a way that can be vetted in some way by others.

 

[AAK]

This comparison needs to stop. Stig's game hadn't even been announced, trumpeted as a tent pole title at major industry events for nearly 3 years or given a release window. Your PlayStation All Stars example is also a strange one that doesn't really belong in this discussion.

This is the 3rd time Microsoft has cancelled a previously announced AAA game this generation. Technically the 4th, since whatever Black Tusk was working on was being heralded by them as something they wanted to define the generation, and that never got off the ground either. There's clearly a pattern here.

SSM Stig IP's situation is exactly the same as the Black Tusk situation. Sony cancelled a new IP to force the studio to go back and another sequel from a prior generation (God of War) just like how MS shelved the Black Tusk's IP for a sequel to Gears.

For all the flack I see people give Sony for announcing games too early, Microsoft has been just as bad if not worse.

And this is exactly what I'm saying. Sony is no lesser of an evil than Microsoft.

In what way is playstation all stars the same situation. The game was funded until it shipped. It just bombed upon release and Sony decided not to continue their relationship.

This is completely not the same as what is happening with MS and Platinum. Platinum got the rug pulled under them with no shipped game, and no chance to use the assets for another game because they don't own the IP.

It's exactly the same situation as Superbot. Superbot hired tons of new talent and people specifically for the continued support for PSABR including Fighting Game legends like Seth Killian and Ed Maa. They were hard at work on new characters and even more stages before Sony killed the project leaving all that talent with no project leading to massive layoffs at Superbot which is what people are fearing now for the talent at Platinum that were working on Scalebound. Thankfully Seth Killian moved on to develop Rising Thunder with Radiant Entertainment while Ed Ma went to work on Killer Instinct at Double Helix but I can't speak for the rest of the SuperBot staff that got laid off.

 

[Nanashrew]

A brief glimmer of hope in the early days of the 360 aside, I've always considered Microsofts involvement in the gaming industry as a harmful one.

There are of course stories of healthy, successful partnerships and masterpieces of gaming that have come out of them, but the whole company, not just the Xbox division, has a sordid history of out of control egos, petty selfishness and toxic, incompetent or often even deliberately malicious mismanagement.

I've said it before, but what sets Sony, MS and Nintendo apart more than anything when it comes to games is their backgrounds as companies, and how it affects their attitudes toward the medium.

Sony has a history of providing entertainment, and building products that convey artistic mediums to people in an at least luxurious feeling manner. Their creative output in film, TV, and particularly music shaped the PlayStation devision, and Sony has always treated game developers as commercial artists, and embraced the more experimental and speculative side of gaming because of it.

Nintendo is of course a toy company. Play is at the heart of what they see as games purpose, and while that has often limited their scope and style, means they end up supporting many small developers with just a fun idea and themselves churn out well crafted, fun, family friendly titles at a constant rate.

And then there's Microsoft.

The software giant, the only real name in PC's to most of the planet, the ruthless cut throat business that sees everything as a disposable software product to be sold on a platform they can control people's access to, where programmers are a dime a dozen, bullying, intimidation and personal egos have always been actively encouraged by upper management, and they're always chasing the next big thing that will replace what came before it and maximise their profit margins.

Microsoft are not in gaming for anything other than profit. Sure, it drives Sony and Nintendo too, but there's an underlying understanding that, whether it's as an art form or a toy, there's a fundamental relationship relationship between the creator and the consumer in games that goes beyond a simple numbers game of product to profit that MS simply lacks.

Apple are another example of the same. Apple have made it clear, time and again, that they do not give the slightest shit about gaming beyond what money it makes them. They've cultivated a toxic environment on mobile that lets festering free to pay, whale focused, addictive, low brow, race to the bottom shovelware drown out quality in favour of maximising revenue.

And the only difference between Apple and Microsoft, is that Apple are better at managing their brand image, and they don't feel the need to bother putting on a song and dance with their own gaming division to pretend they're an active, willing participant in the creative process.

Microsoft are never going to get, or even respect games. Individuals at the Xbox offices, sure, but the company itself, the people holding the purse strings and setting policy, they're what matters, and they will only ever have their own interests at heart, and those will always be at odds with what is undeniably a creative medium, and you'd have to be blind to not see all the evidence of that over the course of Xbox's history, Scalebound, and its ramifications for Platinum, are just the latest example, and won't be the last.

We don't often see eye to eye, but I agree with you very much here. You absolutely nail the differences in their culture and backgrounds and why I have trouble trusting MS and can't find interest in the Xbox brand.

 

[David___]

SSM Stig IP's situation is exactly the same as the Black Tusk situation. Sony cancelled a new IP to force the studio to go back and another sequel from a prior generation (God of War) just like how MS shelved the Black Tusk's IP for a sequel to Gears.

Except it isn't. Cory Barlog was always leading the GoW team in the background. Stig didnt get his game cancelled and was forced to make the new GoW cause he was never gonna direct it in the first place.

 

[AAK]

Except it isn't. Cory Barlog was always leading the GoW team in the background. Stig didnt get his game cancelled and was forced to make the new GoW cause he was never gonna direct it in the first place.

Sure, a portion of SSM are working on GoW just like how the rest of Platinum is still working on that Granbule Fantasy RPG & Nier Automata. You still have to consider the fact that 50+ developers involved with the New IP from SSM got laid off simultaneously with the cancellation which is what people are fearing for the same developers of Scalebound at Platinum unless someone comes in to fund a new project for that team.

 

[Ogodei]

Critically I think there's more. Mad World, Anarchy Reigns, Star Fox (we can blame Miyamoto)

I love Platinum, but their output is certainly not 100% all the time. And honestly, Kamiya is an idol for me. He's allowed a dud, even if Scalebound didn't turn out well

StarFox's problem was direction, aye. Technically it was pretty solid, and ended up being much more hectic than the early fears about the 2015 build showed.

Wasn't action-y enough at the end of the day for Platinum, though. If Nintendo had to farm it out to get it made, they should have sent it to Bandai Namco again. They (Namco at the time) did a good job with the flying parts of Assault.

 

[Outrun]

SSM Stig IP's situation is exactly the same as the Black Tusk situation. Sony cancelled a new IP to force the studio to go back and another sequel from a prior generation (God of War) just like how MS shelved the Black Tusk's IP for a sequel to Gears.



And this is exactly what I'm saying. Sony is no lesser of an evil than Microsoft.



It's exactly the same situation as Superbot. Superbot hired tons of new talent and people specifically for the continued support for PSABR including Fighting Game legends like Seth Killian and Ed Maa. They were hard at work on new characters and even more stages before Sony killed the project leaving all that talent with no project leading to massive layoffs at Superbot which is what people are fearing now for the talent at Platinum that were working on Scalebound. Thankfully Seth Killian moved on to develop Rising Thunder with Radiant Entertainment while Ed Ma went to work on Killer Instinct at Double Helix but I can't speak for the rest of the SuperBot staff that got laid off.

Excellent context.

Business is business. And when you are Sony or MS, you have leverage over the small guy. It sucks. But this is part of the corporate landscape.

 

[Proelite]

A brief glimmer of hope in the early days of the 360 aside, I've always considered Microsofts involvement in the gaming industry as a harmful one.

There are of course stories of healthy, successful partnerships and masterpieces of gaming that have come out of them, but the whole company, not just the Xbox division, has a sordid history of out of control egos, petty selfishness and toxic, incompetent or often even deliberately malicious mismanagement.

I've said it before, but what sets Sony, MS and Nintendo apart more than anything when it comes to games is their backgrounds as companies, and how it affects their attitudes toward the medium.

Sony has a history of providing entertainment, and building products that convey artistic mediums to people in an at least luxurious feeling manner. Their creative output in film, TV, and particularly music shaped the PlayStation devision, and Sony has always treated game developers as commercial artists, and embraced the more experimental and speculative side of gaming because of it.

Nintendo is of course a toy company. Play is at the heart of what they see as games purpose, and while that has often limited their scope and style, means they end up supporting many small developers with just a fun idea and themselves churn out well crafted, fun, family friendly titles at a constant rate.

And then there's Microsoft.

The software giant, the only real name in PC's to most of the planet, the ruthless cut throat business that sees everything as a disposable software product to be sold on a platform they can control people's access to, where programmers are a dime a dozen, bullying, intimidation and personal egos have always been actively encouraged by upper management, and they're always chasing the next big thing that will replace what came before it and maximise their profit margins.

Microsoft are not in gaming for anything other than profit. Sure, it drives Sony and Nintendo too, but there's an underlying understanding that, whether it's as an art form or a toy, there's a fundamental relationship relationship between the creator and the consumer in games that goes beyond a simple numbers game of product to profit that MS simply lacks.

Apple are another example of the same. Apple have made it clear, time and again, that they do not give the slightest shit about gaming beyond what money it makes them. They've cultivated a toxic environment on mobile that lets festering free to pay, whale focused, addictive, low brow, race to the bottom shovelware drown out quality in favour of maximising revenue.

And the only difference between Apple and Microsoft, is that Apple are better at managing their brand image, and they don't feel the need to bother putting on a song and dance with their own gaming division to pretend they're an active, willing participant in the creative process.

Microsoft are never going to get, or even respect games. Individuals at the Xbox offices, sure, but the company itself, the people holding the purse strings and setting policy, they're what matters, and they will only ever have their own interests at heart, and those will always be at odds with what is undeniably a creative medium, and you'd have to be blind to not see all the evidence of that over the course of Xbox's history, Scalebound, and its ramifications for Platinum, are just the latest example, and won't be the last.

Absolute 100% truth. Back when Xbox was its own division under Gates and Ballmer, gaming had its own independent culture at MS. Under Nedella Xbox is an extension of the whole company. The sole existence is to help the company maintain its profit levels and stem decreasing market share.

Gaming will always be a part of MS but at the same time it'll never be a part of MS, if you understand what I mean.

 

[Jumeira]

Except it isn't. Cory Barlog was always leading the GoW team in the background. Stig didnt get his game cancelled and was forced to make the new GoW cause he was never gonna direct it in the first place.

As it's been already pointed out, it's the same. You seem to be arguing over trivial aspects to what is fundamentally the same scenario.

 

[Mr. Giggles]

Yeesh, MS is having a rough gen :/

 

[Joni]

Let's hope they can pull a Level 5 and thrive after Microsoft cancels their game.

 

[ElFly]

The dev should have hired better lawyers.

I don't care if you are a small company, you are dealing with killers, who will maximize their advantage in all contractual aspects if you allow them to.

while this is a fair point, it is impossible to make a foolproof contract for the dev in game development, as there are too many things that cannot be simply formalized enough that it is unambiguous the game accomplishes them

let's say you are hired to pick up Scalebound and finish it and ship it by MS. what do you write in the contract to avoid getting fucked if MS just decides you are not hitting the graphic fidelity expected, if they don't like how the game is shaping, how the co-op mode works, etc, etc. of course, you may always put some third party as an arbitrator, but that will cost you and MS money and MS may simply refuse to sign. they are shipping the game and financing it, why would some unrelated party say the game is in acceptable condition?

what if your finished game has performance problems? it is very factible if you are inheriting a codebase you didn't create. do you agree to delay it until it hits acceptable performance numbers? who is gonna pay for those extra months of development? who is gonna say what is acceptable? console games will normally have at least some areas with frame rate dips, will your contract specify how many FPS it must hit on average? worst case? of course not

software development is already a heavy mess when it comes to project management, add in the heavily subjective nature of gaming and you have something you cannot predict or manage, and which cannot be simply tamed by a contract, no matter how well written it is

 

[Papacheeks]

SSM Stig IP's situation is exactly the same as the Black Tusk situation. Sony cancelled a new IP to force the studio to go back and another sequel from a prior generation (God of War) just like how MS shelved the Black Tusk's IP for a sequel to Gears.



And this is exactly what I'm saying. Sony is no lesser of an evil than Microsoft.



It's exactly the same situation as Superbot. Superbot hired tons of new talent and people specifically for the continued support for PSABR including Fighting Game legends like Seth Killian and Ed Maa. They were hard at work on new characters and even more stages before Sony killed the project leaving all that talent with no project leading to massive layoffs at Superbot which is what people are fearing now for the talent at Platinum that were working on Scalebound. Thankfully Seth Killian moved on to develop Rising Thunder with Radiant Entertainment while Ed Ma went to work on Killer Instinct at Double Helix but I can't speak for the rest of the SuperBot staff that got laid off.

To the first bolded, Stig's game at SSM was an unnanounced un-released project that failed multiple times at deadlines and vertical slice(or something like that when shown to higher ups). Game was kind of a mess. Scalebound was playable and people played it behind closed doors at E3/GAMESCOM.



Playstation All stars though I loved it, was mis handled and the develop superbot but they let the game go to market on both PS3 and vita. Microsoft has canned 2 games that were shown to the public, announced and close to completion and closed one of the studios that being Lion head.

Sony yes also closes studios but after they've given the developer a chance with releasing their game. Can't blame them for bringing the game to market, then having it not sell, something has to give. I wish SOny gave superbot another shot but, thats where they were in a bad spot and still trying to recoup from PS3 and other divisions leaking money.

That and trying at the time to create a new next gen console and it's launch games as well. SUperbot were given the greenlight by sony to bring in Seth Killian for gods sake to get the game in fighting shape.
They did everything they could to make that game a success. They took a huge gamble on it and it ended up losing lots of money.
Microsoft could have at least let scalebound and Fable legends come to market before giving the axe on the projects and in LH case the studio.

As it's been already pointed out, it's the same. You seem to be arguing over trivial aspects to what is fundamentally the same scenario.

How is it the same? Sony let Stig make his game, it failed deadlines and actual vertical slices when shown to higher ups. Game was not in a great playable state. Scalebound and Fable legends were in playable states. Sure they were rough with frame rate issues and what not. But the game was in a playable state.

 

[haimon]

Man, so many here don't remember how people were talking about Sony when they entered gaming.

They were villifies as a non gaming company using its money from other parts to muscle into gaming.

It's hilarious to keep seeing people doing he same to Ms when plenty of the last 3 gens are innovations that would never have happened without each of the platform holders doing incredible stuff.

 

[Neff]

very good post

There was once upon a time where MS did try, I mean really did try, to appeal to the enthusiast/core gamer before hunkering down and putting almost everything they had into nurturing the dudebro market they created. But those days are clearly behind them, and you're pretty much spot-on about everything else.

 

[Hellshy.]

This isn't unique with Microsoft.

Sony did the same thing with SSM's Stig-directed new IP laying off a bunch of their talent, also with Playstation All Stars Battle Royale causing SuperBot Entertainment to leave the console industry, among many other instances.

How is this the same as Sony canceling stigs game? Sometimes hard decisions have to be made, that doesn't mean every cancelled game is similar to this.

 

[Papacheeks]

.

Where are you getting your info from? Black tust was working on a new IP was project wise in good standing with Microsoft. MS gave them choice to either continue making the new IP, or be a gears of war developer.

They chose the latter for a bunch of reasons i believe have been covered by Rod. Stig's game was a mess and had money put into it given a chance to meet deadlines and preview to the higher ups, they couldn't get it working, so Sony canned it. He was probably offered a position on new god of war but he was not having it after his dream project was cancelled. So he left the studio all together and they at the time had been calling Cory BARLOG to spearhead a new god of war, he came up with the drastic change in direction, and met milestones, then showed what they worked on to higher ups fucking loved it and thats that.

 

[Horsemama1956]

Everyone is blaming MS since there are several journalists and other sources, all saying the same thing - that isn't likely to be some sort of collusion / coincidence.

More so, this has happened before, several times with MS in particular

It happens everywhere with any publisher and any in situation you are doing work for someone else, not just gaming.

It's pretty chessy to call it an MS issue.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I think the division is under enormous pressure since being moved under Windows in early 2014 to bring in a lot of Xbox Live users and they're in a tight spot recovering from a disasterous reveal and a competitor that is on fire.

MCC was a mistake. Fable Legends wasn't going to deliver. QB and ReCore didn't do much. Heck, even Halo and Gears didn't bring in as much as they hoped apparently.

I don't think the higher ups at MS, specifically in Windows, have the patience to rebuild the brand like Sony did with the PS3. They can probably think of a dozen other investments for Windows that have a higher chance of succeeding in bringing in new users than budgeting another $50 million dollar game.

Satya Nadella is ruthless about killing underperforming products, just look at how he is starving the perpetually hapless Windows Phone division. Hopefully they will kill the Xbox soon and the gaming industry can be rid of Microsoft for good.

 

[Goliath]

Man, so many here don't remember how people were talking about Sony when they entered gaming.

They were villifies as a non gaming company using its money from other parts to muscle into gaming.

It's hilarious to keep seeing people doing he same to Ms when plenty of the last 3 gens are innovations that would never have happened without each of the platform holders doing incredible stuff.

When Sony jumped into the video game market they attempted to target an older crowd then Nintendo who was the giant at the time and they played nice with 3rd party devs which helped shift games like Final Fantasy to the Sony platform. Not the same thing MS is being accused of.

 

[watership]

Satya Nadella is ruthless about killing underperforming products, just look at how he is starving the perpetually hapless Windows Phone division. Hopefully they will kill the Xbox soon and the gaming industry can be rid of Microsoft for good.

How will that help gaming as a whole?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

How will that help gaming as a whole?

Gaming was better before MS entered the industry and it will be better if they leave.

The PS4 is mostly unchallenged this gen and we're looking at a gaming resurgence not seen since the PS2 days. The PS360 gen where MS was competing heavily was a poor one in terms of quality and diversity of games and many of the reasons for this can be directly traced back to MS.

 

[ProfessorMoran]

Kamiya knows how to hold a grudge. Expect it to be the last Game he does with MS

Sony must have pissed him off at some point because he hasn't worked with Sony directly since his capcom days.

 

[Hellshy.]

They couldn't have finished Titanfall without Microsoft. Nobody wanted to fund it much less market the fuck out of it, so you're pretty wrong about that.

I have always found it hard to believe that a developer who created one of the best selling franchises would struggle to find someone to fund the next ip. I mean thy already had EA as a publisher before ms came around. it seems more like PR talk to calm the moneyhat chatter.

 

[bidguy]

Satya Nadella is ruthless about killing underperforming products, just look at how he is starving the perpetually hapless Windows Phone division. Hopefully they will kill the Xbox soon and the gaming industry can be rid of Microsoft for good.

yea, gonna be so sweet once all those people working there lose their jobs

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

SSM Stig IP's situation is exactly the same as the Black Tusk situation. Sony cancelled a new IP to force the studio to go back and another sequel from a prior generation (God of War) just like how MS shelved the Black Tusk's IP for a sequel to Gears.

And this is exactly what I'm saying. Sony is no lesser of an evil than Microsoft.

It's not the same situation at all. For one, the game hadn't even been announced. The only reason we know about Darkside is due to leaks from journalists and insiders after the fact. Secondly, a God of War sequel was always going to happen through SSM.

There's a difference between announcing a brand new studio, saying they're going to be producing a generation defining new IP then shelving it in favour of making them a Gears factory and shelving an unannounced project which was most likely being made by a different team to the one working on your other established IP. You'd be surprised at how many unannounced games are canned without ever being announced publicly. It's par for the course. What is not par for the course is announcing a big new title, showing it off at public shows for 2 years running then cancelling it. Again, not comparable to Stig's game.

 

[AAK]

To the first bolded, Stig's game at SSM was an unnanounced un-released project that failed multiple times at deadlines and vertical slice(or something like that when shown to higher ups). Game was kind of a mess. Scalebound was playable and people played it behind closed doors at E3/GAMESCOM.

How is it the same? Sony let Stig make his game, it failed deadlines and actual vertical slices when shown to higher ups. Game was not in a great playable state. Scalebound and Fable legends were in playable states. Sure they were rough with frame rate issues and what not. But the game was in a playable state.

According to this insider, it's the same deal with Scalebound how they missed deadlines too:

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=227949583

So again, it's the same situation with how Sony handled SSM's missed deadlines too

Playstation All stars though I loved it, was mis handled and the develop superbot but they let the game go to market on both PS3 and vita. Microsoft has canned 2 games that were shown to the public, announced and close to completion and closed one of the studios that being Lion head.

Sony yes also closes studios but after they've given the developer a chance with releasing their game. Can't blame them for bringing the game to market, then having it not sell, something has to give. I wish SOny gave superbot another shot but, thats where they were in a bad spot and still trying to recoup from PS3 and other divisions leaking money.

That and trying at the time to create a new next gen console and it's launch games as well. SUperbot were given the greenlight by sony to bring in Seth Killian for gods sake to get the game in fighting shape.
They did everything they could to make that game a success. They took a huge gamble on it and it ended up losing lots of money.
Microsoft could have at least let scalebound and Fable legends come to market before giving the axe on the projects and in LH case the studio.

The game didn't sell huh? Not according to Sony:

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2012/11/27/playstation-all-stars-sales-are-right-on-target

So despite meeting Sony's demands they were still laid off. And all while they were still busy developing content for their game like the Legend of Dragoon character.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

Makes me wonder how much stupid influence Microsoft has on Halo.

I know the MCC was not supposed to be the MCC. It was supposed to be just Halo 2 Anniversary, but Microsoft wanted more. Probably would have turned out better...

 

[CamHostage]

Shaky track record means 2 rushed Activision licensed games now? Out of how many great games??

Plus, we should get some developers in here who fought with each other like gamecocks in a pit to get the pittances of Activision Value contracts. This was one of the few companies producing B-grade licensed game titles in the PS3 era (for better or worse), and with the falling prospects of professional developers in the middle between AAA and indie game design, these companies fought to the death to get contracts and make deadlines.

There are reasons why so few movie- and TV-based games came out at that time. It was bad business (TT Games is one of the few to succeed and prosper at it, but unemployment offices are littered with staffers who once made character and franchise games for consoles,) and companies got into it because they had few other choices and were hoping good work would still be recognized under the packaging. The PlatinumGames licensed titles seemed so out-of-nowhere for a classy and heralded studio, but realize that once Platinum left the award ceremonies, they had to go out on the streets and beg for work ... you can't feed your kids trophies.

The game didn't sell huh? Not according to Sony:

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2012/11/27/playstation-all-stars-sales-are-right-on-target

So despite meeting Sony's demands they were still laid off. And all while they were still busy developing content for their game like the Legend of Dragoon character.

Eh, I don't want to get too deep into the "Microsoft is a villain and Sony is a hero" debate (all companies that survive have histories of cold-blooded actions), but this quote from a Sony rep is basically what they always say when first-week numbers are out. "We're matching our projections, we're proud of our accomplishments, we're looking forward to a bright future..." They had a new product to sell, of course they'd look for a way to spin it. Back at the office, they still had choices to make that would only get harder to accept as the product's future dimmed. I would have loved a second PS ASB, and I hate what happened to SuperBot, but there were tea leaves to read.

 

[MatrixMan.EXE]

According to this insider, it's the same deal with Scalebound how they missed deadlines too:

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=227949583

So again, it's the same situation with how Sony handled SSM's missed deadlines too

This can't be repeated enough, the game was never publicly announced. This kind of thing happens so much behind the scenes in this industry. Scalebound is a different case entirely because it happened so publicly. If you're comparing Scalebound to Darkside then you may as well compare it to the hundreds of projects in the industry that have been secretly shelved behind closed doors over the years.

 

[haimon]

Gaming was better before MS entered the industry and it will be better if they leave.

The PS4 is mostly unchallenged this gen and we're looking at a gaming resurgence not seen since the PS2 days. The PS360 gen where MS was competing heavily was a poor one in terms of quality and diversity of games and many of the reasons for this can be directly traced back to MS.

Ms helped gaming a great deal.

While it might not be what you want it to be , last gen was amazing with games and new technologies adding to what games can do.

 

[AAK]

This can't be repeated enough, the game was never publicly announced. This kind of thing happens so much behind the scenes in this industry. Scalebound is a different case entirely because it happened so publicly. If you're comparing Scalebound to Darkside then you may as well compare it to the hundreds of projects in the industry that have been secretly shelved behind closed doors over the years.

This is exactly the message I'm trying to send. EA, Sony, Bethesda, Microsoft, you name it.

They are all guilty of this. This is isn't a Microsoft only revelation of big Publishers leaving developers to the brink.

 

[watership]

Gaming was better before MS entered the industry and it will be better if they leave.

The PS4 is mostly unchallenged this gen and we're looking at a gaming resurgence not seen since the PS2 days. The PS360 gen where MS was competing heavily was a poor one in terms of quality and diversity of games and many of the reasons for this can be directly traced back to MS.

This is where personal bias is clouding you. To say the gaming is better without Microsoft is delusional. Just as much as saying that about anyone, including Sony, Nintendo, Sega, EA etc.

 

[TheBanditKing]

I certainly don't want to speak out of turn but from what I have seen since the first Xbox is MS screws over or kills too many of the studios they work with and acquire. Bizarre Creations, Beep Industries, Rare, Mistwalker, Lion Head, Bungie,and those are just the ones I remember.

It is entirely possible that Kamiya made poor decisions along the way as well and I'm not saying that the game looked to be going well from the demos. Still whats coming out is that MS (as has been the case in the past) got too involved with the creative vision and kept trying to shoehorn things for P* to add in to the game (like the co-op) much like what happened with Phantom Dust.

 

[CamHostage]

If you're comparing Scalebound to Darkside then you may as well compare it to the hundreds of projects in the industry that have been secretly shelved behind closed doors over the years.

Plus, the name of this topic is "Microsoft mismanagement ofthird party partnerships leaving developers in a bad state?"

There still is a SIE Santa Monica Studio. They are not in a bad shape. They went through a rough spell where a project died and people could not be retained, but they've rebounded and have a highly-anticipated new game.

Games do fail in development and get canceled, and mismanagement is often one of the reasons for the failure, but it's not the only reason games die, and good management is not a rare flower in gaming. Sometimes games just die, but developers (often with the help of publishing partners, be they previous or new handlers) often bounce back strong. Releasing your worst work may be a grave mistake, and going through the brutal choice of euthanizing your failing project may eventually pay off in the team being reinvigorated by what they do next once they pick themselves back up.

This thread is in particular about a history of developers who were not left in a shape able to do that. The game died, and they died with it. Unfortunately, MS has a few of those haunting ghosts on its track record, but that's the debate we're having: is this publisher is more at fault than others or there an unfair rep and MS just happens to be more visible as a killer in the public eye?

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

Everyone always rushes to blame the publisher when this stuff happens. I've seen first-hand more than one instance of a dev mismanaging a project, or deceiving the publisher, leading to a cancellation. Some publishers are a bit overbearing for a reason. They've had their fingers burned in the past and it's expensive to resolve these situations. It usually means extending deadlines or throwing more people and money at the project. People keep mentioning an example which I know for a fact isn't a case of the greedy publisher fucking over the poor dev. I work in game dev and I've seen fuck ups on both sides that have resulted in canned games.

But it's Kamiya and Platinum Games. If either have had a reputation for mismanagement or not delivering, I haven't heard it.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Gaming was better before MS entered the industry and it will be better if they leave.

The PS4 is mostly unchallenged this gen and we're looking at a gaming resurgence not seen since the PS2 days. The PS360 gen where MS was competing heavily was a poor one in terms of quality and diversity of games and many of the reasons for this can be directly traced back to MS.

Can you elaborate on what this means?

 

[Papacheeks]

According to this insider, it's the same deal with Scalebound how they missed deadlines too:

http://m.neogaf.com/showpost.php?p=227949583

So again, it's the same situation with how Sony handled SSM's missed deadlines too



The game didn't sell huh? Not according to Sony:

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2012/11/27/playstation-all-stars-sales-are-right-on-target

So despite meeting Sony's demands they were still laid off. And all while they were still busy developing content for their game like the Legend of Dragoon character.

It's nice to cherry pick I guess:

Here's a continuation of that info from ign article

Game did not have legs and under performed straight up. AI believe there's even a old NPD thread here about it from 2012 someone can look up.

But it did not do well. Like others have pointed out from your previous posts the situations are not the same at all. Scalebound was a known game, anounced to the public, shown at couple trade shows and demoed to the press behind closed door.

Stig's game couldn't pass verticle slice previews which means the game wasn't even ina fit state to show to the public. It was canned before it even was announced. Fable legends and Scalebound were announced, being played by people in beta's(in fables case) and anticipated as part of MS lineup. Stig's game was in the shadows that onyl leakers and insiders somewhat knew about.

 

[Maztorre]

How will that help gaming as a whole?

I for one would really appreciate Microsoft not showing up in the PC space every 6 or 7 years with a botched relaunch of a store platform that the market keeps rejecting, causing a number of PC titles to be arbitrarily locked behind various DRM/graphics API/OS requirements while nothing is done to maintain functionality of these titles after Microsoft inevitably abandons them (whereupon they come back later and pretend it never happened).

 

[watership]

I certainly don't want to speak out of turn but from what I have seen since the first Xbox is MS screws over or kills too many of the studios they work with and acquire. Bizarre Creations, Beep Industries, Rare, Mistwalker, Lion Head, Bungie,and those are just the ones I remember.
.

Rare is sort of the poster boy of the "Microsoft ruins studios" arguement, but calling the rest of these developers "Screwed over" by Microsoft may be exaggerating things..

Bizarre Creations made fantastic games for Microsoft, felt that they didn't get the promotion that they deserved from PGR4, and were always playing second fiddle to Turn 10. They thought they had a better chance with Activision, which didn't have it's own racing franchise, so they went their own way. That ultimately led to their demise, as Activision was worse for them than MS was. However, now Playground Games makes Forza Horizon, which is full of ex Bizarre Creation staff.

Can't speak to Beep Industries/Voodoo Vince, as i don't know much about that situation.

Mistwaker was created partly with Microsoft money. Giving Sakaguchi a place to make games he wanted after getting tossed out of Square. Even when MS was still working with them, they were making DS games and planning a Wii game, I don't think that shows a destructive relationship at all.

Lion-Head is huge mess, I don't even know where to start. I still have Bullfrog trauma. After Fable III came out I sort of felt some of the magic was gone in that company. But they had lots of cancellations, missed deadlines and failures before MS even bought them.

Bungie should be shown as the best example of how a studio can be bought by a publisher, and then leave, intact, with all their talent. They were in huge trouble when MS bought them. The Myst 2 recall problem (software bug deleted users entire hard drive) almost killed them, and they were actively looking to be bought. Apple refused, Steve Jobs disliked gaming, and Microsoft stepped in. Bungie realized that they'd be making Halo games as long as they were with Microsoft so they worked with them to buy their own company back,again intact. They would work on a few more Halo games, and then go their own way. This would allow MS to build a new studio (343) just for Halo, so they would be able to continue the series. I can't think of another example in gaming where a company was bought, absorbed by another Corporation, and actually did so . That doesn't seem to be screwed over in the slightest.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

A brief glimmer of hope in the early days of the 360 aside, I've always considered Microsofts involvement in the gaming industry as a harmful one.

There are of course stories of healthy, successful partnerships and masterpieces of gaming that have come out of them, but the whole company, not just the Xbox division, has a sordid history of out of control egos, petty selfishness and toxic, incompetent or often even deliberately malicious mismanagement.

I've said it before, but what sets Sony, MS and Nintendo apart more than anything when it comes to games is their backgrounds as companies, and how it affects their attitudes toward the medium.

Sony has a history of providing entertainment, and building products that convey artistic mediums to people in an at least luxurious feeling manner. Their creative output in film, TV, and particularly music shaped the PlayStation devision, and Sony has always treated game developers as commercial artists, and embraced the more experimental and speculative side of gaming because of it.

Nintendo is of course a toy company. Play is at the heart of what they see as games purpose, and while that has often limited their scope and style, means they end up supporting many small developers with just a fun idea and themselves churn out well crafted, fun, family friendly titles at a constant rate.

And then there's Microsoft.

The software giant, the only real name in PC's to most of the planet, the ruthless cut throat business that sees everything as a disposable software product to be sold on a platform they can control people's access to, where programmers are a dime a dozen, bullying, intimidation and personal egos have always been actively encouraged by upper management, and they're always chasing the next big thing that will replace what came before it and maximise their profit margins.

Microsoft are not in gaming for anything other than profit. Sure, it drives Sony and Nintendo too, but there's an underlying understanding that, whether it's as an art form or a toy, there's a fundamental relationship relationship between the creator and the consumer in games that goes beyond a simple numbers game of product to profit that MS simply lacks.

Apple are another example of the same. Apple have made it clear, time and again, that they do not give the slightest shit about gaming beyond what money it makes them. They've cultivated a toxic environment on mobile that lets festering free to pay, whale focused, addictive, low brow, race to the bottom shovelware drown out quality in favour of maximising revenue.

And the only difference between Apple and Microsoft, is that Apple are better at managing their brand image, and they don't feel the need to bother putting on a song and dance with their own gaming division to pretend they're an active, willing participant in the creative process.

Microsoft are never going to get, or even respect games. Individuals at the Xbox offices, sure, but the company itself, the people holding the purse strings and setting policy, they're what matters, and they will only ever have their own interests at heart, and those will always be at odds with what is undeniably a creative medium, and you'd have to be blind to not see all the evidence of that over the course of Xbox's history, Scalebound, and its ramifications for Platinum, are just the latest example, and won't be the last.

You post a story about company histories and choose to completely ignore what abrasive, cock blocking cunts Nintendo were during the 80s and 90s. Behaviour which has - at least in part, effectively cut them off from 3rd parties to this day.

Right.

 

[Memento]

Wow, I have never read that Phantom Dust story.

Pretty fucked up.

 

[jmdajr]

You post a story about company histories and choose to completely ignore what abrasive, cock blocking cunts Nintendo were during the 80s and 90s. Behaviour which has - at least in part, effectively cut them off from 3rd parties to this day.

Right.

Every company has pissed me off at point or another. No one is safe from criticism.