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Microsoft mismanagement ofthird party partnerships leaving developers in a bad state?

Personally i think the problem is whoever is in charge of the games. When Phil did that, there never seemed to be major issues. But now that hes the xbox main guy and someone else is in charge of games, were seeing a very average portfolio in general.

Who exactly is in charge of games now?
 

sibarraz

Banned
Lol at the "both sides" stuff here. Yeah I'm sure this publisher with multiple shady stories of their acts now and in the past (that are similar to those of several other asshole publishers) is the same as this developer reknowned for getting things done in tight deadlines.

Worse part is that, unlike Sony with early PS3, MS are so big I'm not sure it's possible for them to get a wake-up call, as they can just dump their console efforts and do other things if it goes wrong.

Star Fox Zero was a major screwup (most of the blame is on miyamoto, but don't know how free is p*) and you have other platinum licensed games that were trash, also is the whole factor that p* games doesn't sell that well.

I'm sure that ms has some, if not most of the blame to take, but they must have a big reason to cancel a game with 4 years of development that was one of the few exclusives that they have this in this empty year
 

Crayon

Member
A brief glimmer of hope in the early days of the 360 aside, I've always considered Microsofts involvement in the gaming industry as a harmful one.

There are of course stories of healthy, successful partnerships and masterpieces of gaming that have come out of them, but the whole company, not just the Xbox division, has a sordid history of out of control egos, petty selfishness and toxic, incompetent or often even deliberately malicious mismanagement.

I've said it before, but what sets Sony, MS and Nintendo apart more than anything when it comes to games is their backgrounds as companies, and how it affects their attitudes toward the medium.

Sony has a history of providing entertainment, and building products that convey artistic mediums to people in an at least luxurious feeling manner. Their creative output in film, TV, and particularly music shaped the PlayStation devision, and Sony has always treated game developers as commercial artists, and embraced the more experimental and speculative side of gaming because of it.

Nintendo is of course a toy company. Play is at the heart of what they see as games purpose, and while that has often limited their scope and style, means they end up supporting many small developers with just a fun idea and themselves churn out well crafted, fun, family friendly titles at a constant rate.

And then there's Microsoft.

The software giant, the only real name in PC's to most of the planet, the ruthless cut throat business that sees everything as a disposable software product to be sold on a platform they can control people's access to, where programmers are a dime a dozen, bullying, intimidation and personal egos have always been actively encouraged by upper management, and they're always chasing the next big thing that will replace what came before it and maximise their profit margins.

Microsoft are not in gaming for anything other than profit. Sure, it drives Sony and Nintendo too, but there's an underlying understanding that, whether it's as an art form or a toy, there's a fundamental relationship relationship between the creator and the consumer in games that goes beyond a simple numbers game of product to profit that MS simply lacks.

Apple are another example of the same. Apple have made it clear, time and again, that they do not give the slightest shit about gaming beyond what money it makes them. They've cultivated a toxic environment on mobile that lets festering free to pay, whale focused, addictive, low brow, race to the bottom shovelware drown out quality in favour of maximising revenue.

And the only difference between Apple and Microsoft, is that Apple are better at managing their brand image, and they don't feel the need to bother putting on a song and dance with their own gaming division to pretend they're an active, willing participant in the creative process.

Microsoft are never going to get, or even respect games. Individuals at the Xbox offices, sure, but the company itself, the people holding the purse strings and setting policy, they're what matters, and they will only ever have their own interests at heart, and those will always be at odds with what is undeniably a creative medium, and you'd have to be blind to not see all the evidence of that over the course of Xbox's history, Scalebound, and its ramifications for Platinum, are just the latest example, and won't be the last.

As usual, good post by Stilton, but I may disagree with one part and that's where ms only care about the profit from gaming. It's likely that they see it mostly as a gateway to platform lock-in, even if it's not that profitable.
 
They sure put Respawn on the map, and gave them a huge hit for a new IP that they then tanked with the sequel. Insomniac put out one of the best games of the year in 2014 and nobody bought it. Playground games (and Turn 10, though 1st party) are pretty much the only place to go for AAA quality racing games these days even if they don't sell gangbusters. Iron Galaxy has created an identity beyond being a porthouse and making Wreckateer, and now makes one of the best fighting games on the market following in the footsteps of Double Helix who was also brought out of obscurity by Microsoft.
 

5taquitos

Member
They sure put Respawn on the map, and gave them a huge hit for a new IP that they then tanked with the sequel.

Respawn would have been a huge name no matter who they ended up with as a publisher, Zampella and West were gaming celebrities after the infamous fallout with Activision.
 
Respawn would have been a huge name no matter who they ended up with as a publisher, Zampella and West were gaming celebrities after the infamous fallout with Activision.

They couldn't have finished Titanfall without Microsoft. Nobody wanted to fund it much less market the fuck out of it, so you're pretty wrong about that.
 
Star Fox Zero was a major screwup (most of the blame is on miyamoto, but don't know how free is p*) and you have other platinum licensed games that were trash, also is the whole factor that p* games doesn't sell that well.

I'm sure that ms has some, if not most of the blame to take, but they must have a big reason to cancel a game with 4 years of development that was one of the few exclusives that they have this in this empty year

Star Fox Zero is incredibly divisive at worst (I think it's a great game but not without its flaws) - it's pretty much 2016's "love it or hate it" title, making the whole "screwup" part questionable, and Platinum's involvement in that game was mostly on the asset side of things rather than mechanics. The only truly bad game they've made was TMNT, and that was a rushed as hell licensed Activision-published title, and the second-worst was Korra, with the same conditions, complete with the same director. Everything else Platinum has made is decent at worst.

Platinum are, in the right conditions, an incredibly reliable studio in terms of both quality, efficiency and getting stuff done - they have the benefit of the doubt here. Microsoft, on the other hand, has a documented history of screwing with developers.
 
The only problem MS has is adaptability when it comes to games, other than that, they are about on par with everyone when it comes to pushing out games.
 

vonStirlitz

Unconfirmed Member
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Wollan

Member
Saw this on twitter:
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h04WQHi_7ClVAyNUqPDr_b6_yeE0r8vtdCctDFUjOEsgf3PIxBBhTRb1CBMj36O2NAp8VTfEWgI94NdEOzY-hCJrRHa7SBJBGcbjKTWa9aPR5pzsNFSB3kDlqRBp3Y0Jl8-MAAGKC5eCAL2MV_rDVMY__lawVlhSQgM3CQYVs2C5wojjZdWxAVtxsZ5DsSvYeMKpyRqwKfLgf1NYyJvJt6C1SdH_uOfYE0LxBabsdOfASMlc81h21JsXumMmCnl6hR_b6QncJu5EEblLb_Wzgh6XboOcaRMWThX8XjfcLswmcfXyWlc9SFyoDmyNypJif9_5QatmuApSCPhFDBnxMREMfFqRSn2ls8BEcUxmF4d7_KYNxsuJvi-r2euRu2FerOOMoVnOy1R018JaCCrHiby2Mbe7OIsTg43pRUpZ5Igwd9m7xvlAWJxjMCSlKLXcSq5m0Mt4h5diKqu_he3OcVJRus8ycfSNzqcqd5JwhCIuQlLD0juNDHyGgTqHaYKjSQcIdX1_dzPqFrvy-x4zM1Nzjfup_LSn1TYa1Jf_TFHinCsbvI1Lc5pXpijA7OjxkHdRHxGoMWALS72sA51BAsUeADojNmx7YKh6ugXpzNU2ykjpIlOPPencswtlDG4D4ihr0n3HglgvKwlIMnCd12_5zZJ5cW8rcX5xINpVImQ=w791-h493-no


D0CiCeMuOTOhF_QUEqvu6aMwo5FgdSSYY9OGifFlj6n75VlKVphzid8P2S95JtS67OlgogPdVfn93DokA4kip2OSW2jTH986gYHL8lIljcHWdP3GEukHrhRwy67V22iOKgXWdQw7eDadi3ZafuI-Y2z8ZgZQGVeVk93Y9L3KIs5j37BeIOJtuPtAX75sIytADSopar4CSawDNXGsHAi-4P8VB1uIecAB9nGNTNLiONgBGLsdBeMBPTxBNpmGGwGJvysUsrawZIbiiG0_SEeXlVC24pAqeb7u1h6a6LbMi1Ho660_HZvP1hbybkteg0VfS54HshSvMrVWfwul65vWYbHvDWuomGBae3KT9c259XLT1yy0fbG6kfh8ljvQL5Ma7BoUqhA1xCyl2PvWBuL2llzTXJQ4PnPtH4D11R81CJE31kd6hXTl2Hc9xjde-PfCz7v6Vgd5SsR_c4AGLTU0KNk6aVP4Xkx1CIfQcT0E1FJr587S6nOYMDNmcHblgcwVqVtm_YBKNLJzMaufEg2XEJe0eVzgqLHPXyo8QHdjZPyJKEOgFaOUQzIA66kzWF-0CfoWDJKOWGgv1o-m2S32go9AtYLYyI80KPkccfdiOBBgP7m_fSBpZ-BXSA5BdIogQKQyRUJuwsjWUU0LRh9tgJN9vPkyUDdewlMGXqYBvWY=w787-h702-no
 

Sydle

Member
Personally i think the problem is whoever is in charge of the games. When Phil did that, there never seemed to be major issues. But now that hes the xbox main guy and someone else is in charge of games, were seeing a very average portfolio in general.

Who exactly is in charge of games now?

Shannon Loftis, but I wouldn't necessarily blame her. I imagine that the higher ups in the Windows division have tightened their belt on games amd timelines more with each big exclusive that failed to bring in millions of users.

This is just me, but I read Spencer's tweet on the Scalebound decision being best for Xbox gamers as in the stakes are incredibly high (i.e. massive budget cuts, downsizing, having to to take even less risks) for more failures.
 

_Legacy_

Member
I think I'll wait until we hear something more solid rather than odd Twitter messages here and there. I think both PG and MS are at fault here.

I personally was hyped for Scalebound, even after the lacklustre showing last year. Looking at the MS lineup now, I just don't know what I'm truly hyped for anymore. The lineup pales in comparison to Sony and to be honest, I'm leaning towards buying a PS4. I'm just not interested in Gears, Forza or Halo (to a degree) as much as I was a few years ago. QB and Sunset Overdrive were meh.
 
Sleep with dogs. Wake with fleas.

A thread about their 13 years of first party makes good companion reading. http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=873707

Holy shit, that is some damning reading when you lay it out like that. And it's not like their situation has improved much since it was written either - Fable Legends cancelled, Lionhead closed, Press Play closed, Twisted Pixel has gone independent (credit where it's due; good on them for allowing this) and they shut down the TV division Xbox Entertainment Studios long before its crown jewel effort Quantum Break even launched.

To be fair every large publisher has issues with cancelling games and shutting down studios, but it does seem disproportionately common for Microsoft Studios. And it's not like Phil Spencer hasn't had time to right the ship; he's been in the driving seat for almost three years now. Assuming he set about rectifying their primary issue once he was fully in control then I hope to see a collection of new IPs ready to reveal at E3 this year and next.
 

Elfstruck

Member
Rather than blame this entirely on Phil Spencer, I think it's more on the execs in the Xbox team to oversee games.

Phil Spencer is the big boss, but the problems regarding dev relations could have stemmed from the same group of people that were under Mattrick and him.

Like how Adam Boyes (well was) and Gio Corsi were under Shuhei Yoshida.

Adam and Gio do not report to Shuhei. Back at E3 2015, Shuhei admitted he was surprise about some of the third party stuffs. He knows things but not all third party stuffs.
 

Sydle

Member
Holy shit, that is some damning reading when you lay it out like that. And it's not like their situation has improved much since it was written either - Fable Legends cancelled, Lionhead closed, Press Play closed, Twisted Pixel has gone independent (credit where it's due; good on them for allowing this) and they shut down the TV division Xbox Entertainment Studios long before its crown jewel effort Quantum Break even launched.

To be fair every large publisher has issues with cancelling games and shutting down studios, but it does seem disproportionately common for Microsoft Studios. And it's not like Phil Spencer hasn't had time to right the ship; he's been in the driving seat for almost three years now. Assuming he set about rectifying their primary issue once he was fully in control then I hope to see a collection of new IPs ready to reveal at E3 this year and next.

Remedy was never working with XES.

The live action bits in QB were only ever intended to be in-game story telling based on your decisions. Way back around reveal Lake compared it to the comic books in Max Payne, saying it's just a different medium they thought better suited this game.
 

Narroo

Member
As usual, good post by Stilton, but I may disagree with one part and that's where ms only care about the profit from gaming. It's likely that they see it mostly as a gateway to platform lock-in, even if it's not that profitable.

More or less. To be fair, Sony seems to use the PS3 for similar strategic goals: They used the PS2 and PS3 to promote DVDs and Blurays, which is great for them. They get royalties.

That said, Microsoft seems to be a bit worse at the game. As with many ventures, they seem to confuse being cut-throat with good business and end up harming their own goals. They probably were trying to be strategic and fill out their portfolios is a particular way and ended up with nothing.
 
Shannon Loftis, but I wouldn't necessarily blame her. I imagine that the higher ups in the Windows division have tightened their belt on games amd timelines more with each big exclusive that failed to bring in millions of users.

This is just me, but I read Spencer's tweet on the Scalebound decision being best for Xbox gamers as in the stakes are incredibly high (i.e. massive budget cuts, downsizing, having to to take even less risks) for more failures.

It may not be her, but something is definitely "different" now dont you think? Ive never seen this many games in a row just be canned after so much work was put into them.

I dont think its necessarily bad but it has been somewhat of a trend lately.
 

Sydle

Member
It may not be her, but something is definitely "different" now dont you think? Ive never seen this many games in a row just be canned after so much work was put into them.

I dont think its necessarily bad but it has been somewhat of a trend lately.

I think the division is under enormous pressure since being moved under Windows in early 2014 to bring in a lot of Xbox Live users and they're in a tight spot recovering from a disasterous reveal and a competitor that is on fire.

MCC was a mistake. Fable Legends wasn't going to deliver. QB and ReCore didn't do much. Heck, even Halo and Gears didn't bring in as much as they hoped apparently.

I don't think the higher ups at MS, specifically in Windows, have the patience to rebuild the brand like Sony did with the PS3. They can probably think of a dozen other investments for Windows that have a higher chance of succeeding in bringing in new users than budgeting another $50 million dollar game.
 
I think the division is under enormous pressure since being moved under Windows in early 2014 to bring in a lot of Xbox Live users and they're in a tight spot recovering from a disasterous reveal and a competitor that is on fire.

MCC was a mistake. Fable Legends wasn't going to deliver. QB and ReCore didn't do much. Heck, even Halo and Gears didn't bring in as much as they hoped apparently.

I don't think the higher ups at MS, specifically in Windows, have the patience to rebuild the brand like Sony did with the PS3. They can probably think of a dozen other investments for Windows that have a higher chance of succeeding in bringing in new users than budgeting another $50 million dollar game.

They need to get their shit together for Scorpio. i mean Scorpio isnt next gen its still the current one so they have to make sure this gen ends on a positive note. The xbox one S has been great, halo5 support has been great, gears 4 is a great game, forza horizon3 as well, they need to keep pushing.

Theres absolutely no reason for a game to get that far into development and get canned. They need to catch this stuff early on, not 3-4 years later...
 

CCIE

Banned
Please be aware this is probably not the Xbox team's fault. This is management at MS corporate interfering, and giving the Xbox team pretty much impossible milestones to meet as well. MS doesn't really want to be in this business anymore from what I can gather when speaking to MS employees.

However, they can't just shudder it, so they will let it fail on their own - and then claiming that Phil and team couldn't deliver. It's actually a pretty common practice at MS from what I have seen, and common for MS and the practices they are known to use. People who work for MS either hate or love it. Those who fail, hate it.


It's hard to be successful when corporate politics come into play
 

Mael

Member
Gaming as a service claiming another victim.
P* has little to no experience in making their software works as GaaS, considering the push MSFT does and how heavily that factor into EVERYTHING they do in gaming.
A safe guess would probably put the rift between P* and MSFT there.
I guess P* should have chosen Nintendo, Sony or pretty much any other Japanese publisher for partner on their dream project...
MSFT is a pretty worthless partner for devs these days, sure they fronted cash for TitanFall (which gave us one of the most stupid marketing spiel this side of "Giant Enemy Crab") but they're getting pretty notorious now for being shit to work with.
At least it's better than whatever the hell they did with Rare...
 

nynt9

Member
Please be aware this is probably not the Xbox team's fault. This is management at MS corporate interfering, and giving the Xbox team pretty much impossible milestones to meet as well. MS doesn't really want to be in this business anymore from what I can gather when speaking to MS employees.

However, they can't just shudder it, so they will let it fail on their own - and then claiming that Phil and team couldn't deliver. It's actually a pretty common practice at MS from what I have seen, and common for MS and the practices they are known to use. People who work for MS either hate or love it. Those who fail, hate it.


It's hard to be successful when corporate politics come into play

I can't know if this is correct or not, but it kind of makes sense. MS aren't a company driven by their gaming division. Sony's biggest profit source is gaming, and Nintendo's vast majority is gaming. With MS, it's just not s priority for the company overall.

Edit: I guess this post says it better:

A brief glimmer of hope in the early days of the 360 aside, I've always considered Microsofts involvement in the gaming industry as a harmful one.

There are of course stories of healthy, successful partnerships and masterpieces of gaming that have come out of them, but the whole company, not just the Xbox division, has a sordid history of out of control egos, petty selfishness and toxic, incompetent or often even deliberately malicious mismanagement.

I've said it before, but what sets Sony, MS and Nintendo apart more than anything when it comes to games is their backgrounds as companies, and how it affects their attitudes toward the medium.

Sony has a history of providing entertainment, and building products that convey artistic mediums to people in an at least luxurious feeling manner. Their creative output in film, TV, and particularly music shaped the PlayStation devision, and Sony has always treated game developers as commercial artists, and embraced the more experimental and speculative side of gaming because of it.

Nintendo is of course a toy company. Play is at the heart of what they see as games purpose, and while that has often limited their scope and style, means they end up supporting many small developers with just a fun idea and themselves churn out well crafted, fun, family friendly titles at a constant rate.

And then there's Microsoft.

The software giant, the only real name in PC's to most of the planet, the ruthless cut throat business that sees everything as a disposable software product to be sold on a platform they can control people's access to, where programmers are a dime a dozen, bullying, intimidation and personal egos have always been actively encouraged by upper management, and they're always chasing the next big thing that will replace what came before it and maximise their profit margins.

Microsoft are not in gaming for anything other than profit. Sure, it drives Sony and Nintendo too, but there's an underlying understanding that, whether it's as an art form or a toy, there's a fundamental relationship relationship between the creator and the consumer in games that goes beyond a simple numbers game of product to profit that MS simply lacks.

Apple are another example of the same. Apple have made it clear, time and again, that they do not give the slightest shit about gaming beyond what money it makes them. They've cultivated a toxic environment on mobile that lets festering free to pay, whale focused, addictive, low brow, race to the bottom shovelware drown out quality in favour of maximising revenue.

And the only difference between Apple and Microsoft, is that Apple are better at managing their brand image, and they don't feel the need to bother putting on a song and dance with their own gaming division to pretend they're an active, willing participant in the creative process.

Microsoft are never going to get, or even respect games. Individuals at the Xbox offices, sure, but the company itself, the people holding the purse strings and setting policy, they're what matters, and they will only ever have their own interests at heart, and those will always be at odds with what is undeniably a creative medium, and you'd have to be blind to not see all the evidence of that over the course of Xbox's history, Scalebound, and its ramifications for Platinum, are just the latest example, and won't be the last.
 

Nydius

Member
They need to get their shit together for Scorpio. i mean Scorpio isnt next gen its still the current one so they have to make sure this gen ends on a positive note. The xbox one S has been great, halo5 support has been great, gears 4 is a great game, forza horizon3 as well, they need to keep pushing.

I would dispute the notion that Halo 5 or Gears 4 were great (as opposed to just being more of the same formula), but that's a topic for a different day.

It's funny you bring up Gears 4 and Horizon 3 because those are two prime examples of what Sydle is talking about. I don't need an Xbox One or a Scorpio to play those because I have that free upgrade called Windows 10. Right now, it's more important to Microsoft to build their Windows 10 brand than it is to rebuild or even really push their Xbox brand. Xbox is a Windows 10 gaming portal.

I feel like I'm watching a repeat of Windows Phone where the entire platform was undermined by Microsoft's "embrace-and-extend" philosophy. Instead of latching onto the the features that made their devices unique, they just made versions for everyone else and failed to spend time rebuilding the brand as it transitioned from WP8.1 to W10 Mobile. Although not a direct apples to apples comparison since they're not putting their titles on competing devices, they are competing directly against themselves with Windows 10.

The fact that I could get damn near every major exclusive except for Halo 5 and Sunset Overdrive and play it on my PC means Microsoft has lost an Xbox One sale and a potential Scorpio sale. Just as I had no qualms about moving back to iOS when I realized every major piece of defining software on Windows Phone could be found on Apple devices.

I'm not saying Xbox hardware is going away soon but Microsoft has always been a software-first company and they have a CEO who fully embraces that past (along with a future of software-as-services). Windows 10 is their focus and I imagine there's more than a few people inside the corporate offices who would be happy to ultimately eliminate building dedicated console hardware in favor of pushing all of their studio exclusives to Windows 10 PCs.
 
Not sure if it got discussed already in the thread, but didn't a bunch of indies sour pretty badly on MS as well. I remember Jonathan Blow being pretty down them off after Braid.
 
I would dispute the notion that Halo 5 or Gears 4 were great (as opposed to just being more of the same formula), but that's a topic for a different day.

It's funny you bring up Gears 4 and Horizon 3 because those are two prime examples of what Sydle is talking about. I don't need an Xbox One or a Scorpio to play those because I have that free upgrade called Windows 10. Right now, it's more important to Microsoft to build their Windows 10 brand than it is to rebuild or even really push their Xbox brand. Xbox is a Windows 10 gaming portal.

I feel like I'm watching a repeat of Windows Phone where the entire platform was undermined by Microsoft's "embrace-and-extend" philosophy. Instead of latching onto the the features that made their devices unique, they just made versions for everyone else and failed to spend time rebuilding the brand as it transitioned from WP8.1 to W10 Mobile. Although not a direct apples to apples comparison since they're not putting their titles on competing devices, they are competing directly against themselves with Windows 10.

The fact that I could get damn near every major exclusive except for Halo 5 and Sunset Overdrive and play it on my PC means Microsoft has lost an Xbox One sale and a potential Scorpio sale. Just as I had no qualms about moving back to iOS when I realized every major piece of defining software on Windows Phone could be found on Apple devices.

I'm not saying Xbox hardware is going away soon but Microsoft has always been a software-first company and they have a CEO who fully embraces that past (along with a future of software-as-services). Windows 10 is their focus and I imagine there's more than a few people inside the corporate offices who would be happy to ultimately eliminate building dedicated console hardware in favor of pushing all of their studio exclusives to Windows 10 PCs.

I think you (like most people on here) forget the fact that PCs are generally not what casual gamers will buy as a primary gaming platform. They buy consoles. They buy them because their ease of use and simple design, ability to lead and buy games on disk real cheap, etc. Yeah, youll be able to play Halo6 on PC and that opens that franchise up to millions of new gamers, but most casual gamers (and some hardcore ones) arent going to buy it on PC.

The console is key to MS because it allows them to capture that audience that they normally wouldnt get if xbox games were only on PC. The world doesnt revolve around PC gamers.

As for windows phone, the problem with that imo was the fact that it just didnt do anything better than whats already out there. People arent going to switch to windows phone if it doesnt give them any benefits from their iphone or android. Its common sense.
 

Mael

Member
I think you (like most people on here) forget the fact that PCs are generally not what casual gamers will buy as a primary gaming platform. They buy consoles. They buy them because their ease of use and simple design, ability to lead and buy games on disk real cheap, etc. Yeah, youll be able to play Halo6 on PC and that opens that franchise up to millions of new gamers, but most casual gamers (and some hardcore ones) arent going to buy it on PC.

The console is key to MS because it allows them to capture that audience that they normally wouldnt get if xbox games were only on PC. The world doesnt revolve around PC gamers.

As for windows phone, the problem with that imo was the fact that it just didnt do anything better than whats already out there. People arent going to switch to windows phone if it doesnt give them any benefits from their iphone or android. Its common sense.

If they buy consoles they're already not that casual anymore.
i mean you need to get a sub, the controller is complicated and everything.
At this point if people are casual about gaming they don't spend 400 quids on it and they're not looking at the kind of experience MSFT offers on Xbox.
For windows phone, they burned their customers and software makers 3 times in a row.
You'd have to be daft beyond daft to support anything MSFT does on mobile
 

Gestault

Member
Regarding the Phantom Dust scenario, I literally don't understand how a production contract could allow an entirely different project to be added on without the terms being revisited.
 

Outrun

Member
Regarding the Phantom Dust scenario, I literally don't understand how a production contract could allow an entirely different project to be added on without the terms being revisited.

The dev should have hired better lawyers.

I don't care if you are a small company, you are dealing with killers, who will maximize their advantage in all contractual aspects if you allow them to.
 

MikeyB

Member
If you sign a contract, then you must meet deadlines. That is business. Not buying the whole Microsoft is evil, and developers are innocent.

Why do you assume that the contract had clear deliverables and deadlines that could not be revised subject to a host of conditions? My earlier post apparently gave the impression that I'm defending Platinum - I am not.

I am insisting that people don't make up shit about contracts they haven't seen and archair business consultant themselves into a seemingly well informed position.

Accept our position of ignorance and wait. Eat a sandwich or play a game or something.
 

Arkam

Member
Apologies if it has been brought up already but... did y'all bring up the time MS nearly killed Obsidian? They were working on an Xbone launch title when MS canceled it. Resulted in mass layoffs and nearly killed the studio. Not sure on the details as I only heard it from those who were directly impacted.

Anyway just seemed relevant to this thread.
 

nynt9

Member
I think you (like most people on here) forget the fact that PCs are generally not what casual gamers will buy as a primary gaming platform. They buy consoles. They buy them because their ease of use and simple design, ability to lead and buy games on disk real cheap, etc. Yeah, youll be able to play Halo6 on PC and that opens that franchise up to millions of new gamers, but most casual gamers (and some hardcore ones) arent going to buy it on PC.

The console is key to MS because it allows them to capture that audience that they normally wouldnt get if xbox games were only on PC. The world doesnt revolve around PC gamers.

As for windows phone, the problem with that imo was the fact that it just didnt do anything better than whats already out there. People arent going to switch to windows phone if it doesnt give them any benefits from their iphone or android. Its common sense.

Actually, I'd dispute this. There's probably a way larger casual gamer market on PC than consoles. Web games, Facebook games, f2p games, low budget indie games, gens-old console games that can be obtained for like $5 and run great on weaker PCs, no paid online requirement, the fact that Steam has over 100 million users, twitch, etc. all come together to point that there are many people who play games on PC who don't necessarily follow the AAA hardcore console gamer paradigm.
 

Sydle

Member
Regarding the Phantom Dust scenario, I literally don't understand how a production contract could allow an entirely different project to be added on without the terms being revisited.

OP left out some stuff:

Suddenly, what was once a $5 million multiplayer reboot of Phantom Dust had become a $5 million multiplayer reboot of Phantom Dust with a six-hour single-player story mode attached. That meant Darkside would need more designers, more artists, and more programmers, all of which equated to extra time and money that they didn't have. Still, employees say they were committed to pulling it off. This was their first solo project. They wanted to prove they were good enough to do it. According to one Darkside source, their tentative plan was to build a fun vertical slice—a playable and demonstrable chunk of the game—and use it to persuade Microsoft into giving them more money.

Sounds like the team said yes to the additions, but took a gamble on the vertical slice being what they needed to get the funding they needed. If you're a MS PM and a team just agreed to do what you asked for a specific budget, which you report back to your stakeholders at MS, and then you and MS learn they were just a tad deceptive in their approach then you can see how things would go south.

Darkside should have stood their ground and said they couldn't do it for the given budget. Maybe MS would have pulled the project anyway to get what they wanted, but maybe they would have figured out another path such as getting another team to help on the SP stuff. In any case, Darkside took a big gamble with their approach to securing more funding.

On Microsoft's side, they should have had their shit together when pitching what they were looking for to team's who were interested in the project. I have no idea how "people will probably want SP" just pops up one day.

The dev should have hired better lawyers.

I don't care if you are a small company, you are dealing with killers, who will maximize their advantage in all contractual aspects if you allow them to.

They would have lost if they agreed to the increase in scope like Jason's article suggests.
 

FyreWulff

Member
If you sign a contract, then you must meet deadlines. That is business. Not buying the whole Microsoft is evil, and developers are innocent

I had a fun story typed up but in short, no, every single project contract has so many poison pills coming and going that it doesn't matter. The publisher can activate and back out using any of them at any time, and often the pills are set up to look "good" on paper but are easily triggerable by the pub itself



one of the fun ones is specifiying an absurd minimum metacritic (90 or greater) and then intentionally underfunding and then spitting the game out the door early, which activates the metacritic clause, which activates another poison pill about payments, which in some cases means you go into debt and your only options are to file bankruptcy (and the publisher gets all your IPs for pennies as an agreement for wiping out your debt to them) or contract with this company again and hope you can redline and make it.
 

nynt9

Member
I had a fun story typed up but in short, no, every single project contract has so many poison pills coming and going that it doesn't matter. The publisher can activate and back out using any of them at any time, and often the pills are set up to look "good" on paper but are easily triggerable by the pub itself



one of the fun ones is specifiying an absurd minimum metacritic (90 or greater) and then intentionally underfunding and then spitting the game out the door early, which activates the metacritic clause, which activates another poison pill about payments, which in some cases means you go into debt and your only options are to file bankruptcy (and the publisher gets all your IPs for pennies as an agreement for wiping out your debt to them) or contract with this company again and hope you can redline and make it.

Yet another trick in the book Obsidian fell into with New Vegas and the MC 85 clause (they got 84)

It gets more insidious if you consider the publisher also controls marketing and reviewer relations so they can do everything in their power to tank the MC score as well...
 

Lady Gaia

Member
The dev should have hired better lawyers.

I don't care if you are a small company, you are dealing with killers, who will maximize their advantage in all contractual aspects if you allow them to.

It doesn't matter what kind of lawyers you get to review a contract, when you're working with a much larger company with a full-time legal staff of their own you have to proceed on a certain amount of faith. After all, it's not unreasonable to assume that both parties want to successfully produce a compelling title for the console. Surely it's in their mutual interest to work toward that goal? Most contractual scrutiny is likely to be over making sure you get paid for your efforts.

If it turns out you don't have a good working relationship then no contract is going to save the effort.
 

FyreWulff

Member
Yet another trick in the book Obsidian fell into with New Vegas and the MC 85 clause (they got 84)

It gets more insidious if you consider the publisher also controls marketing and reviewer relations so they can do everything in their power to tank the MC score as well...

Or straight up pretend your release doesn't exist.

Like Titanfall 360.
 
Please be aware this is probably not the Xbox team's fault. This is management at MS corporate interfering, and giving the Xbox team pretty much impossible milestones to meet as well. MS doesn't really want to be in this business anymore from what I can gather when speaking to MS employees.

However, they can't just shudder it, so they will let it fail on their own - and then claiming that Phil and team couldn't deliver. It's actually a pretty common practice at MS from what I have seen, and common for MS and the practices they are known to use. People who work for MS either hate or love it. Those who fail, hate it.


It's hard to be successful when corporate politics come into play
While we have no idea of knowing if this is what is happening, it is what I'm inclined to believe.
I see a lot of people say that no one at Microsoft cares about games, but I genuinely think everyone in the Xbox division does. It's just that the higher-ups at MS make it hard for them to succeed.
 
They sure put Respawn on the map, and gave them a huge hit for a new IP that they then tanked with the sequel. Insomniac put out one of the best games of the year in 2014 and nobody bought it. Playground games (and Turn 10, though 1st party) are pretty much the only place to go for AAA quality racing games these days even if they don't sell gangbusters. Iron Galaxy has created an identity beyond being a porthouse and making Wreckateer, and now makes one of the best fighting games on the market following in the footsteps of Double Helix who was also brought out of obscurity by Microsoft.

Titanfall would have been far more successful originally of it wasn't exclusive to Xbox.
 

LordRaptor

Member
Actually, I'd dispute this. There's probably a way larger casual gamer market on PC than consoles.

I don't think there's any probably about it to be honest, GAF is just incredibly selective about what it counts as games and what the term used for the people playing those pieces of software should be.
 
Do people fail to realize that maybe it was the dev team that wasnt pulling their weight, sticking to deadlines, or just lacking talent that causes this shit to happen? Everyone just blames MS lol.
 

jmdajr

Member
Polygon has a HUGE write up on the making of Final Fantasy 7. It eventually goes on to talk about Mistwalker and Lost Odyssey. Well... they sure don't speak highly of MS! Seems there has always been disagreements.

But hey the game came out and it's still being promoted.
 

Nzyme32

Member
Do people fail to realize that maybe it was the dev team that wasnt pulling their weight, sticking to deadlines, or just lacking talent that causes this shit to happen? Everyone just blames MS lol.

Everyone is blaming MS since there are several journalists and other sources, all saying the same thing - that isn't likely to be some sort of collusion / coincidence.

More so, this has happened before, several times with MS in particular
 
I haven't read through the thread so maybe someone has already suggested this but I t seems to me that when you make a first party game for Microsoft you make the game Microsoft wants you to make, unlike with Sony where you make the game you want to make. Not good for successful relationships
 
Why do you assume that the contract had clear deliverables and deadlines that could not be revised subject to a host of conditions? My earlier post apparently gave the impression that I'm defending Platinum - I am not.

I am insisting that people don't make up shit about contracts they haven't seen and archair business consultant themselves into a seemingly well informed position.

Accept our position of ignorance and wait. Eat a sandwich or play a game or something.

So true. There is a lot of that going on here and the theorising and assumptions are worthless.
 

Outrun

Member
It doesn't matter what kind of lawyers you get to review a contract, when you're working with a much larger company with a full-time legal staff of their own you have to proceed on a certain amount of faith. After all, it's not unreasonable to assume that both parties want to successfully produce a compelling title for the console. Surely it's in their mutual interest to work toward that goal? Most contractual scrutiny is likely to be over making sure you get paid for your efforts.

If it turns out you don't have a good working relationship then no contract is going to save the effort.

From what I read, it does not seem that it was legal minutia that hurt the dev.

But again, all we know of this story is from a one-sided source. This story has then been used to place the guilt on MS, before we have a definitive version of what went wrong with Scalebound.

The 13 years of MS 3rd party dealings thread is being quoted ad nauseum in order to frame MS as the bad guy.

For sure, MS needs to do better. I am just not sure if they needed to do better with Platinum, who perhaps themselves need to do better.
 
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