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[Spring-Loaded]

A while back, I used the term "save-scum," referring to the practice of saving (in a game with a "save anywhere" functionality), reloading the save and repeating as needed to avoid failure in a game. The person I was talking with took offense at the term, perceiving it as elitist, and as if the people who employ that practice were "scum." What the fuck.

You see people bristle at certain terms and lingo in the game industry. Character action. Ludonarrative dissonance. Player agency, etc. What is it about those terms and others that offends some people? Without shorthand/common terms, discussion (on, say, a video game forum) gets bogged down with people literally spelling out what each term means rather than relying on a relatively collective understanding of video games. It's like using DPS rather than damage per second—at some point, enough people knew what they stood for that it didn't need to be spelled out every time.

Possibly a broad question, but there has to be some common ground. There are least needs to be a specific reason for each term and for each person who hates it. All too often,people don't say why, and you rarely see any succinct alternatives given, if ever. What do those people want?

 

[PMS341]

I believe that it isn't necessarily the term themselves, but rather the usually unfortunate "marketing" push behind said terms.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

I think people bristle at things like "ludonarrative dissonance" and "verisimilitude" and other things like that because it's pretty obvious that most people who use those words only understand/know them in the context of games, and are trotting them out like a badge of intelligence (I know a fancy word!), or simply repeating something they heard someone else say.

Otherwise, I'm with you. People getting mad over terms, especially terms that make a concept clear, makes no sense to me.

Yes, there is a degree to which all these terms are esoteric, but they don't even come up in most conversations unless you're talking with similarly-enthused gamers.

 

[60EffPeeEss]

Save-scumming can be looked down upon because you aren't "playing the game as its meant to be played", but then again, the feature is there, and if a player is using it to get an item with an incredibly shite drop rate through a guaranteed one-off encounter, then I'd say its the game at fault with bad design.

However, using it to make sure certain characters don't die through player choices, or so you can ensure romances happen, is definitely something to absolutely deride.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

I believe that it isn't necessarily the term themselves, but rather the usually unfortunate "marketing" push behind said terms.

I don't buy this in most cases. "Visceral" may have been abused in marketing, but what marketing push is there behind "save-scumming"? And even in the case of terms like visceral, they still have a meaning and a use in discussion.

 

[Mupod]

I don't understand why people fly into a frothing rage at the usage of metroidvania or roguelike. You know what I'm fucking talking about who cares about the semantics.

 

[Tecnniqe]

Save-scumming is simply using the games mechanics against itself.

I see no problem.

It's there, use it or don't.

 

[PMS341]

I don't buy this in most cases. "Visceral" may have been abused in marketing, but what marketing push is there behind "save-scumming"? And even in the case of terms like visceral, they still have a meaning and a use in discussion.

I suppose I meant marketing in a broader sense, where the terms constantly get applied to various productions. I'm sort of surprised that anyone would be upset by "save-scumming", unless it's the slight negative connotation that bothers them?

 

[Goose_Se7en]

I think people bristle at things like "ludonarrative dissonance" and "verisimilitude" and other things like that because it's pretty obvious that most people who use those words only understand/know them in the context of games, and are trotting them out like a badge of intelligence (I know a fancy word!), or simply repeating something they heard someone else say.

Otherwise, I'm with you. People getting mad over terms, especially terms that make a concept clear, makes no sense to me.

Yes, there is a degree to which all these terms are esoteric, but they don't even come up in most conversations unless you're talking with similarly-enthused gamers.

The bolded part hits the nail on the head. It's all about context and if I sense someone is using these words to "show-off" how smart or wordy they are I may not like it much. Not so much the use of the words themselves but the tone in which it was used.

Otherwise I agree that having a set of "terms" to describe games is a necessity in order for the medium to be discussed analytically.

 

[Net_Wrecker]

Spring-Loaded, my dude, take a seat. I need to tell you something you might not be able to emotionally handle.

*deep breath*


People are dumb.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

The reaction against ludonarrative dissonance primarily came up in the context of Uncharted fans being defensive about a perceived criticism of the series. I love those games but the gap between the tone of the lifelike narrative sections and the player's actions is pretty hard to deny.

 

[J_ToSaveTheDay]

Games have been around a long, long time and I think enthusiasm and appreciation for the medium of games has done nothing but grow over time. The creation of language to better understand and communicate games is an inevitable part of the growth of the culture surrounding games, and I never feel it's completely fair to fault anyone for trying to create a language to more efficiently describe common aspects of playing or designing games, as they relate specifically to games and games alone.

It always irks me to see them dismissed under what appears to be the most common notion that they're making games seem overly intellectual or somehow degrading the positive feedback (the "fun") of games. I think they're furthering the analytical language and allowing people to appreciate them more. I don't fault a single person that just wants to experience the positive feedback, but I don't necessarily feel that it just outright permits them to meet their lack of relativity to the uses of expanded terminology with dismissal or shaming.

 

[Disagree Guy]

Not necessarily solely a gaming term but I am growing to despise the two terms;

Frame-rate
Latency

It seems if they were a tangible commodity they'd be oxygen or some shit. Without it - you die.

 

[Eumi]

People want to feel superior and one way to do that is to shit on other people for using certain words.

If they can make another person seem like an idiot or an asshole through the words they use they can make themselves look better in comparison, by feigning some sort of high road.

 

[redcrayon]

Plenty of different reasons.

-A poster might not understand the term.
-They might think it means something different.
-They might think the use of a more complex term is irritating in a casual conversation (context matters- we often discuss media differently with different groups of people, for example I don't use my office jargon when describing what I do to my parents).
-Perceived over-use (this isn't anyone's fault, but more irritation at seeing the same phrase in every second post)
-The phrase-user perceived as just parroting an argument they heard elsewhere, is then called on to justify that they know what they are saying. The person calling them out then can't back down because it's the Internet.

Not that I particularly agree with any of the above but people can get prickly about almost anything.

I find jargon to be pretty much inevitable and happens in any industry- there's certainly enough of it when discussing mine. It's often just a commonly-understood shorthand to avoid laying out a longer explanation, but sometimes the definition can end up misunderstood by two different spheres of people and then it just causes confusion.

There was a thread on the term 'gameplay loop' yesterday, which I find to be a really useful term. I don't think you could describe a lengthy chain of actions repeated over and over to provide the backbone and main pacing of a game in a more succinct, descriptive and simple way.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

anti-intellectualism

 

[Disagree Guy]

anti-intellectualism

That's stupid

 

[liquidtmd]

Not necessarily solely a gaming term but I am growing to despise the two terms;

Frame-rate
Latency

It seems if they were a tangible commodity they'd be oxygen or some shit. Without it - you die.

See also: 'Lazy Devs'

'The frame rate is not locked 60fps, it drops to 40s, the Devs are fucking lazy. Lazy Devs. Lol. Durp'

 

[Faiz]

I'm not surprised someone would hate a term like save-Scum and call it elitist bullshit. That's exactly how it reads.

 

[Theslammer]

I'm playing Resident Evil and have encountered a few times where I wish I could have "save-scummed." =P

If I'm able to save, I save. In Starcraft, I saved like crazy. Hell, the worst thing to happen was getting far without saving and then encountering a power outage. FFFUUU-

 

[Parakeetman]

Other stuff is more the overall context of how said term might be used or the discussion at hand.

One example is the constant use of "Souls-like"

Then the "Inspired by" term.

For myself its more getting irritated when terms are either used incorrectly or people start making up their own definitions.

 

[Vinnk]

very often I have to look up terms people use on here. Recently I looked up RNG because people kept using it but no one had defined it. I felt kinda dumb because I have been gaming all my life. I also had to look up:

buffs and debuffs
Mobs
BoE
BoP

Lots of others over the years.

But you know in an age of google. It's not really a problem. But I can imagine it would be to say these things to a non-gamer.

 

[The Boat]

People like to complain, it makes them feel superior.

 

[lensoftruth]

New games-journalism bullshit isn't?

 

[Wulfram]

People don't like ludonarrative dissonance because they see it as pushing the idea that the gameplay should serve the story and they dislike that idea. The grandiloquence and gratuitous latin don't help.

(I don't think it does necessarily push that idea, because its equally valid to resolve it by changing the story)

Savescum is a pejorative term, its not really surprising people should take offence at it. I think it makes sense in what I believe is its original context with roguelikes where perma-death was intended to be a fundamental part of the game, but caution should definitely be used when employing it more widely.

Roguelike again I think mostly gets people annoyed because either they're not particularly keen on that type of game, or (like me) because they were a fan of the old school roguelikes before it started being used to mean anything with perma-death and procedural generation.

 

[zoukka]

Jargon is always annoying if you are not fluent in it. Avoid using jargon with people who aren't as deep into the hobby as you.

 

[Humdinger]

Some people will take offense if they feel that the term is being used to slight them. People usually get defensive when they feel they are being criticized.

"Ludonarrative dissonance" is different, though. That's just pretentious. I would expect people to chuckle at that, rather than take offense.

 

[Phu]

Jargon is always annoying if you are not fluent in it. Avoid using jargon with people who aren't as deep into the hobby as you.

But this happens here where you'd think most people are past the threshold.

 

[zoukka]

But this happens here where you'd think most people are past the threshold.

Well people should know the basic stuff that relates to games as popular culture, but I doubt many here know game development jargon.

 

[Mephala]

I suspect it is also partly due to association. They see it used enough negatively or have negative feelings towards the games or practices that it involves, bam. That word is bad because of my X number of bad experiences and there is obviously a correlation.

And to be honest, I am susceptible to this a bit as well. I can't help but have a negative feeling towards certain words or phrases. Konami is an interesting one. They have a lot of bad reputation and are pretty much letting some of my favourite franchises gather dust but I am kind of hopeful they I either forget them entirely or they come out with something great. Then we have all this Konami news and I have come to just hate "#FuckKonami" because this honestly doesn't interest me any longer. I'd rather hear them succeed in something and start looking up than constantly be reminded of their shenanigans.

 

[Nottle]

Jargon is always annoying if you are not fluent in it. Avoid using jargon with people who aren't as deep into the hobby as you.

That and when someone doesn't understand jargon don't be a know it all ass about it. My girlfriend appreciates when I explain some game concept in a way that doesn't feel elitist or like I'm dumbing it down. She'll point out that what I'm saying makes no sense and I then say it in a way that does (hopefully).

 

[jotun?]

as if the people who employ that practice were "scum."

Well, they are...

I despise the term "toon" when referring to a game character

 

[Gestault]

Overexposure and obvious mis-use. If they regularly see it being used as an arbitrary buzzword, they assume it's an arbitrary buzzword.

And sometimes, the terms are legitimately elitist and derogatory. Half the time the people saying it originally (probably) used it sarcastically, and then other people assume it's not and still love it because they're awful. It's like people with huge ethnic hang-ups thinking the race jokes from Family Guy are funny at face value.

 

[TimeEffect]

Maybe this person didn't know you that well and took it the wrong way. Or maybe they are just sensitive

 

[SolidSnakex]

The reaction against ludonarrative dissonance primarily came up in the context of Uncharted fans being defensive about a perceived criticism of the series. I love those games but the gap between the tone of the lifelike narrative sections and the player's actions is pretty hard to deny.

I think the hatred for that term is something near universal, whether you like Uncharted or not. That's why you really don't see it being used much anymore. It was somewhat popular when the initial Bioshock article hit, but died off rather quickly because of the sharp reaction to it.

 

[The_Hitcher89]

Never understood why people have such a problem with 'console-exclusive'

Its pretty obvious what it means and why its a selling point.

 

[AColdDay]

I think a lot of us associate video game terminology with people who take this stuff way too seriously and just hearing it gives a cringe reaction.

 

[UpUpDownDown]

When people think it makes them look smart.

You actually had that conversation in real life? Like, they seriously got offended by you being a game elitist??

 

[Rembrandt]

Ludonarrative dissonance is so dumb and pretentious.

 

[Bane]

I don't understand why people fly into a frothing rage at the usage of metroidvania or roguelike. You know what I'm fucking talking about who cares about the semantics.

I've not noticed roguelike get much hate but I completely agree about Metroidvania. It seems every time someone in the media uses it it's prefaced by "I hate this term." Motherfucker, why? If people know exactly what your talking about when you use it who cares what the name is?

The only issue I have with the term is the vania part shouldn't be there and it should just be Metroidlike, but that's an extremely minor quible and not usually worth bringing up.

 

[DrArchon]

Ludonarrative dissonance is so dumb and pretentious.

If you've got a better way to describe gameplay tone not matching the tone of the story, let's hear it.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Ludonarrative dissonance is so dumb and pretentious.

not really

but i think we should also coin a term for its opposite: ludonarrative harmony or ludonarrative congruence

i'm considering making a thread about this concept and games that do it well

 

[The Albatross]

A while back, I used the term "save-scum," referring to the practice of saving (in a game with a "save anywhere" functionality), reloading the save and repeating as needed to avoid failure in a game. The person I was talking with took offense at the term, perceiving it as elitist, and as if the people who employ that practice were "scum." What the fuck.

That seems like a really reasonable response from that person. That's how I figured it was used to, or that it's a scummy practice. I think "Save spamming" might elicit less of a strong response

If you've got a better way to describe gameplay tone not matching the tone of the story, let's hear it.

Well, there's one.

If you say "Ludonarrative dissonance" to virtually anybody who isn't on NeoGaf or a strong videogame enthusiast, they will have no idea what you're talking about. If you say, "Gameplay tone doesn't match the tone of the story," then everybody will know what you're talking about. It's one thing to throw the phrase around if you're taking an academic approach to videogame criticism, but it's another if you're casually discussing gaming (like the majority of the time) and throw it out.

 

[Rembrandt]

If you've got a better way to describe gameplay tone not matching the tone of the story, let's hear it.

I don't think the need for a word is even necessary most of the time, tbh.

 

[DrArchon]

Well, there's one.

2 words vs 9.

 

[nynt9]

A lot of people are overly emotionally attached to video games and terms like these are generally used to criticize games and call to attention how immature gaming is as an art form sometimes, so people tend to get defensive.

 

[Toxi]

I think people bristle at things like "ludonarrative dissonance" and "verisimilitude" and other things like that because it's pretty obvious that most people who use those words only understand/know them in the context of games, and are trotting them out like a badge of intelligence (I know a fancy word!), or simply repeating something they heard someone else say.

"Ludonarrative dissonance" by definition can only apply to games. "Ludo" comes from the Latin "ludus", or game. "Ludonarrative" means "game narrative." The term was invented for talking about games by a LucasArts employee.

It helps to actually know what a phrase means before assuming the people who use it are pretentious.

 

[rec0ded1]

I find this thread shallow and pedantic

https://youtu.be/yetwdpsiM8Q

Seriously though it's when a word or phrase starts being parroted with no real thought behind it. It's just annoying though not rage inducing.

Spoiler

I hate when people say "not a good look" for everything

 

[emb]

Save-scum is a pretty bad example. It's a term that implies exactly what you describe. I think a better way to describe it is 'save abuse'. It still recognizes that it's probably not what the mechanic is intended for, without sounding as blame-y.

One that I didn't get at first is people's harsh aversion to the term 'gamer'. I mostly still don't mind it, but seeing a lot of marketing stuff, it starts to make sense.

Ludonarrative dissonance is fine I think. I didn't like the Bioshock example that it I first heard it with though, didn't think it was applied well.

 

[Awntawn]

I think people bristle at things like "ludonarrative dissonance" and "verisimilitude" and other things like that because it's pretty obvious that most people who use those words only understand/know them in the context of games, and are trotting them out like a badge of intelligence (I know a fancy word!), or simply repeating something they heard someone else say.

Otherwise, I'm with you. People getting mad over terms, especially terms that make a concept clear, makes no sense to me.

Yes, there is a degree to which all these terms are esoteric, but they don't even come up in most conversations unless you're talking with similarly-enthused gamers.

It's an elitist mentality that you'll see in most forms of art studies. People come up with fancy terms to seem smarter than other people. Even though the concepts discussed are fairly straightforward and can be explained to and understood by almost anyone, using fancy terms lets people sound like they're talking about something complicated and intelligent.