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[LordRaptor]

People don't like feeling that they're less in any form than anyone else.

Savescumming is a pejorative term for cheating via RNG manipulation? And thats a thing that you do? How fucking dare you call me scum.
Tonal dissonance being a term you have never heard because you have never encountered formal criticism of a medium? God, you're so pretentious with your high faluting words, its just a game bro, fuck off telling me what I can like.

 

[Pagusas]

Probably because the terms and the people saying them sound silly as all hell, taking a silly concept like games and making them into something serious. It's annoying and cringeworthy.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

anti-intellectualism

case in point:

It's an elitist mentality that you'll see in most forms of art studies. People come up with fancy terms to seem smarter than other people. Even though the concepts discussed are fairly straightforward and can be explained to and understood by almost anyone, using fancy terms lets people sound like they're talking about something complicated and intelligent.

 

[Moon_frogger]

If you try to talk to me about 'gamefeel' instead of making a legitimate attempt to discuss a games mechanics I will just roll my eyes and move on.

 

[LordRaptor]

Probably because the terms and the people saying them sound silly as all hell, taking a silly concept like games and making them into something serious. It's annoying and cringeworthy.

The day someone added an extrinsic motivator (oops, my bad, a reason to do a thing that is not a thing built directly into the thing) to a game as a 'story' to be told through playing is the day videogames opened itself up for the potential of analysis as an art form.

 

[RichiRamjag]

I think people bristle at things like "ludonarrative dissonance" and "verisimilitude" and other things like that because it's pretty obvious that most people who use those words only understand/know them in the context of games, and are trotting them out like a badge of intelligence (I know a fancy word!), or simply repeating something they heard someone else say.

Otherwise, I'm with you. People getting mad over terms, especially terms that make a concept clear, makes no sense to me.

Yes, there is a degree to which all these terms are esoteric, but they don't even come up in most conversations unless you're talking with similarly-enthused gamers.

Yep. I hate hearing people regurgitate something they obviously heard elsewhere over and over. Though if someone knows what they're talking about and can elaborate, then great.

 

[Black Knight]

Because they're kappas that don't understand the glory in 2 tapping randos

 

[NinjamicWZ]

Video game people and their hyperbolic, inarticulate, reductionist shit-posting, both casually and professionally... and the perpetual double down that goes with it. Every phrase or word becomes a signifying meme for the elements that make engaging with video game discussion on the internet a needlessly combative, vengeful and deprecating experience.

 

[LordRaptor]

Do you guys actually resent reading articles that don't assume you're a moron and that if you are interested in a subject you have the capacity to look up terms and concepts you are unfamiliar with?

 

[TheJollyCorner]

Man these franchises are out of control!!!


*gets shoes thrown at him by various GAFers*

 

[Deleted member 752119]

Well for save scumming, I find it pretty pathetic when people remotely care how others play single player games. Much less to be derisive about it.

I get it for MP games where player behavior can affect others. For single player, why care? The point of those games is to have fun playing the game. Play games the way they're fun for you and let others do the same.

Personally I'm here for news and killing time at work talking about the industry. Speculating about sales/trends etc. I'm not a frequent participant in game OTs as I just don't really care how others are playing a game or what they think of it nor to share my thoughts on what I'm playing.

To each their own of course. It just comes across as incredibly pathetic to deride someone for save scumming or playing on easy or summoning help for bosses in Soul games. I mean come on. This is a pretty nerdy hobby we all love (well some of us, plenty here just talk a lot of shit and barely play games). Do we need to make our hobby even worse by people having superiority complexes over how they play games compared to others?

So for that example, I don't think it's people have a problem with the terminology like some of the examples in the thread. People have an issue with people being derisive toward how someone else chooses to have fun playing a fucking video game.

 

[DrArchon]

Probably because the terms and the people saying them sound silly as all hell, taking a silly concept like games and making them into something serious. It's annoying and cringeworthy.

Dude, it's not the terms that are trying to make games serious, it's the people making the games. Fucking last year we had Deus Ex Mankind Divided making DIRECT comparisons to the BLM movement and using the word apartheid regularly in marketing material. Doesn't get much more serious than that.

More and more games are trying to say something important, so why shouldn't they be taken seriously?

 

[Par Score]

A while back, I used the term "save-scum," referring to the practice of saving (in a game with a "save anywhere" functionality), reloading the save and repeating as needed to avoid failure in a game. The person I was talking with took offense at the term, perceiving it as elitist, and as if the people who employ that practice were "scum." What the fuck.

What other possible interpretation is there?

In what way is "save scum" not a pejorative phrase? In what context is referring to a person or practice as scum or scummy not intended to be an insult?

"Save scumming" has always had negative connotations, from it's inception in the roguelike community through to its use today. It is not some neutral piece of innocent jargon like "Ludonarrative dissonance", it is a pointed insult intended to denigrate.

 

[NoKisum]

And here I thought this thread was about the use of the word "gamer".

 

[Veal]

Video game people and their hyperbolic, inarticulate, reductionist shit-posting, both casually and professionally... and the perpetual double down that goes with it. Every phrase or word becomes a signifying meme for the elements that make engaging with video game discussion on the internet a needlessly combative, vengeful and deprecating experience.

Full agreement.

 

[Khrno]

Save-scumming is simply using the games mechanics against itself.

I see no problem.

It's there, use it or don't.

Because i don't see a problem with this is why i don't like how it is called "scumming"

 

[hydrophilic attack]

It's funny how people get so angry about the word savescumming. "Scum" has several definitions. In this context, when used as a verb, "to scum" can be a synonym to the verb "to scour". As in save scouring. It's not meant as an insult

 

[Phu]

What other possible interpretation is there?

In what way is "save scum" not a pejorative phrase? In what context is referring to a person or practice as scum or scummy not intended to be an insult?

"Save scumming" has always had negative connotations, from it's inception in the roguelike community through to its use today. It is not some neutral piece of innocent jargon like "Ludonarrative dissonance", it is a pointed insult intended to denigrate.

I'm willing to bet most people who use 'save scum' do not use it in a negative manner nowadays. Like 'bunnyhopping' or 'kiting' it's mostly just a term that describes a behavior/action.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

Dude, it's not the terms that are trying to make games serious, it's the people making the games. Fucking last year we had Deus Ex Mankind Divided making DIRECT comparisons to the BLM movement and using the word apartheid regularly in marketing material. Doesn't get much more serious than that.

More and more games are trying to say something important, so why shouldn't they be taken seriously?

Games can be serious and be taken seriously.

Doesn't mean we have to take gaming seriously to the point of being derisive towards people playing a game differently than we do. As long as it's not an MP game where it's negatively affecting others, there's no reason to care who others play a game. Who cares if they "save scummed" or played on easy or summoned help in a Souls game? That's how they had fun playing the game. You had fun playing it your way. You both win as you had a great time with the game. There's not a right or wrong way to play games, especially single player games.

 

[Clefargle]

Its pretty simple:

New term > enthusiast adoption > mainstream usage > corporate adoption > enthusiast rejection > mainstream derision > old term

Happens in any industry/community that is sufficiently large

 

[zoukka]

It's funny how people get so angry about the word savescumming. "Scum" has several definitions. In this context, when used as a verb, "to scum" can be a synonym to the verb "to scour". As in save scouring. It's not meant as an insult

Of course it is.

 

[Dantrist]

You call someone scum and they perceive it as you calling them scum... That's the weirdest thing!

 

[Toxi]

I've never seen "save scumming" used as an insult. It's surprising for me.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

Video game people and their hyperbolic, inarticulate, reductionist shit-posting, both casually and professionally... and the perpetual double down that goes with it. Every phrase or word becomes a signifying meme for the elements that make engaging with video game discussion on the internet a needlessly combative, vengeful and deprecating experience.

Very well put.

Perhaps the best example of that, much more so than save scumming, is people referring to "casuals" derisively and "real" gamers as "hardcore" or "core" gamers.

So much useless combativeness in the gamer community that I haven't seen in my other hobbies like movies and sports.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Of course it is.

You call someone scum and they perceive it as you calling them scum... That's the weirdest thing!

"Savescumming" is a verb not a noun.

When someone uses the word "savescumming" they are not saying that someone is a "savescum" (noun)

When someone is "Savescumming" they are engaging in "scumming" i.e. "scouring" of saves

I'm increasingly getting the impression from this thread that hate of certain terms is rooted in someone's insecurity at their limited vocabulary

 

[DrArchon]

Games can be serious and be taken seriously.

Doesn't mean we have to take gaming seriously to the point of being derisive towards people playing a game differently than we do. As long as it's not an MP game where it's negatively affecting others, there's no reason to care who others play a game. Who cares if they "save scummed" or played on easy or summoned help in a Souls game? That's how they had fun playing the game. You had fun playing it your way. You both win as you had a great time with the game. There's not a right or wrong way to play games, especially single player games.

Wait, I think you got confused somewhere. I don't care what people do in their single player games. I've savescummed tons of times in my games. There's obviously no wrong way to play a single player game.

I was talking about taking gaming seriously as an artform.

 

[Humdinger]

If you've got a better way to describe gameplay tone not matching the tone of the story, let's hear it.

How about "narrative-gameplay mismatch."

It's an elitist mentality that you'll see in most forms of art studies. People come up with fancy terms to seem smarter than other people. Even though the concepts discussed are fairly straightforward and can be explained to and understood by almost anyone, using fancy terms lets people sound like they're talking about something complicated and intelligent.

It's not just art studies. It's every line of academic endeavor. You can find convoluted, pretentious-sounding terms (often describing simple concepts) in almost every academic department there is. It's just part and parcel of being in academia.

 

[Toxi]

"Savescumming" is a verb not a noun.

The word is not saying that anyone is scum

When someone is "Savescumming" they are engaging in "scumming" i.e. "scouring" of saves

I'm increasingly getting the impression from this thread that hate of certain terms is rooted in someone's insecurity at their limited vocabulary

Savescumming apparently actually did arise from it being seen as "scummy".

I can't see using it as an insult today though when everyone's done it some time or another.

 

[Phu]

Wait, I think you got confused somewhere. I don't care what people do in their single player games. I've savescummed tons of times in my games. There's obviously no wrong way to play a single player game.

I was talking about taking gaming seriously as an artform.

Woah, woah, no need for insults.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Savescumming apparently actually did arise from it being seen as "scummy".

I can't see using it as an insult today though when everyone's done it some time or another.

Interesting. Can you provide a source for the bolded? I'll take back what I said if so

Edit: According to tvtropes the phrase originated with the rouge-like community who supposedly meant it as an insult. But tvtropes didn't provide a source to back this claim up

 

[ArkkAngel007]

"Savescumming" is a verb not a noun.

When someone uses the word "savescumming" they are not saying that someone is a "savescum" (noun)

When someone is "Savescumming" they are engaging in "scumming" i.e. "scouring" of saves

I'm increasingly getting the impression from this thread that hate of certain terms is rooted in someone's insecurity at their limited vocabulary

Someone misunderstanding a term due to limited vocabulary and thus hating it has nothing to do with insecurity of said vocabulary.

 

[Toxi]

It's not just art studies. It's every line of academic endeavor. You can find convoluted, pretentious-sounding terms (often describing simple concepts) in almost every academic department there is. It's just part and parcel of being in academia.

Argh

People use academic terms for "simple concepts" in the sciences because they concisely and specifically communicate concepts better than a generalized description (space is at a premium in scientific literature). And general vocabulary words can have very specific meanings in scientific writing.

Beyond that, academic writing is intended for people with at least surface level knowledge of a topic. The audience is expected to know many these terms.

 

[darklin0]

"Savescumming" is a verb not a noun.

When someone uses the word "savescumming" they are not saying that someone is a "savescum" (noun)

When someone is "Savescumming" they are engaging in "scumming" i.e. "scouring" of saves

I'm increasingly getting the impression from this thread that hate of certain terms is rooted in someone's insecurity at their limited vocabulary

It's like being well read is an attack on another persons intelligence.

 

[televator]

I just hate marketing terms as used by the soulless corporations that try their damnedest to siphon our wallets with bullshit. Everything else is cool in my book. "Ludo narrative dissonance," sure lets use all the words to convey what we mean... that's why we make words. People getting angry at big words or short hand terms is fucking silly.

 

[Molemitts]

I find it weird how people just reject gaming jargon entirely. It's one thing not to understand it, but I see so many people on this website just laugh terms off no matter their relevance.

"Ludo-narrative dissonance" is an important concept that should really be talked about and to an extent I kind of agree that it is a stupidly long word and sometimes even just the word "dissonance" will work for the same meaning, but that isn't an excuse to write off any argument that makes a relevant criticism about a game.

actually what i meant to say was https://youtu.be/4m4X4JURcr4

 

[hydrophilic attack]

So I'm trying to look into the claim that "savescumming" was originally meant as an insult in the rogue-like community. Google trends gave me this:

For people that are familiar with this genre, was any big game released around Fall 2005?

 

[LordRaptor]

How about "narrative-gameplay mismatch."

Dissonance isn't that there is a mismatch, it is the effect caused by the conflict of diametrically opposed aspects; it often results in a sense of discomfort when taking things at face value.
It can - and is - deliberately invoked by artists to make specific points.

e:

For people that are familiar with this genre, was any big game released around Fall 2005?

It is not a specific game, it is the usage of the term.

for example, Yahtzee coined the term "PC Master Race" as a pejorative in a video about an attitude of superiority he perceived amongst Pc users who routinely got the 'best' versions of games.
PC gamers and that perceived attitude existed prior to coining that term, that term just encapsulated a feeling and grew to wider use. (and indeed was then co-opted by certain users exhibitring that attitude as a badge of pride rather than the pejorative it was intended as)

 

[hydrophilic attack]

It is not a specific game, it is the usage of the term.

for example, Yahtzee coined the term "PC Master Race" as a pejorative in a video about an attitude of superiority he perceived amongst Pc users who routinely got the 'best' versions of games.
PC gamers and that perceived attitude existed prior to coining that term, that term just encapsulated a feeling and grew to wider use. (and indeed was then co-opted by certain users exhibitring that attitude as a badge of pride rather than the pejorative it was intended as)

Yeah I know. I guess my question is: was there any event one could look back to, such as Yahtzee coining "pc master race", in the roguelike community around Fall 2005?

edit: I should probably just give up and accept that I was wrong

 

[GravityMan]

Misuse and overuse in general (in marketing, in worn-out jokes, in memes, in forum posts, etc.), elitism, pretentiousness. A lot of people who use those terms in a serious way give off the impression that they're trying too hard, and trying to sound "smart" and "enlightened" when they really aren't.

 

[Weltall Zero]

A while back, I used the term "save-scum," referring to the practice of saving (in a game with a "save anywhere" functionality), reloading the save and repeating as needed to avoid failure in a game. The person I was talking with took offense at the term, perceiving it as elitist, and as if the people who employ that practice were "scum." What the fuck.

But that's not save-scumming, that's simply save reloading. Save-scumming refers to games where the temporary save is meant to be a "suspend" feature, saved on quit and deleted on reload (most common in roguelike games). Save-scumming is copying the save by means that are outside the game (file browser in a PC, for example), then restoring it if things go south. There is a reason why the term has a negative connotation: it's actually a form of cheating (giving yourself advantages outside the game design). Hence, save-scumming.

Savescumming apparently actually did arise from it being seen as "scummy".

I can't see using it as an insult today though when everyone's done it some time or another.

But they're not, see above.

 

[Fury451]

Video-gaming communities have a weird self-hating thing, and seem to try to distance themselves from anything related to the hobby that may be pretentious or a label.

Post a thread about "Do you call yourself a gamer?" to see this in action.

 

[Plum]

A lot of people who use those terms in a serious way give off the impression that they're trying too hard, and trying to sound "smart" and "enlightened" when they really aren't.

Who are you to discern who is "smart" and who isn't? Is anyone who dares critique a video game like one would critique a book or movie neither smart nor enlightened? Are there any examples of video game critiques who use these words who you deem to be smart and/or enlightened? Can you even provide an example of a video game critique who 'gives of the impression that they're trying too hard'?

 

[BigDes]

Lack of respect toward the medium as an artform and insecurity on the part of those who wish game criticism to be no more than is x game good or bad.

SO any attempt to build a critical vocabulary is seen as pretentious or as an attack on games themselves.

 

[Occam]

Never mind, misread the question.

 

[Karkador]

Sometimes terms just get misappropriated, but used a lot anyway, like "quality of life features". I just noticed people on GAF using it and it's becoming a bit of a pet peeve. "Quality of life" typically refers to a broader topic of health and well-being. It doesn't even make much sense in the context it's being used, unless you really feel like a videogame experience counts as "life" in the broad sense. "User experience"/"user interface"/"UX" features would be a lot more fitting.

 

[ghibli99]

Post a thread about "Do you call yourself a gamer?" to see this in action.

LOL Yeah, I'll never understand this one. I've loved games my whole life and identify with them, so being called a gamer is no big deal. I'm proud of it, even. It's how I make a living. If someone says sarcastically that I'm a 'gaming nerd' or something though, then I might take some offense (since it implies inferiority by the speaker). That's kind of how it is with most gaming terms that have built-in negativity, like 'walking simulator'. 'Scum-save' sounds like something made up by those who can't fathom how someone would want to progress/save through a game differently than they would, which again, implies that anyone who plays said game in a different way is inferior (and you see it all the time here). That's pretty ridiculous when you stop and think about why in the world this would make someone angry.

 

[Plum]

Sometimes terms just get misappropriated, but used a lot anyway, like "quality of life features". I just noticed people on GAF using it and it's becoming a bit of a pet peeve. "Quality of life" typically refers to a broader topic of health and well-being. It doesn't even make much sense in the context it's being used, unless you really feel like a videogame experience counts as "life" in the broad sense. "User experience"/"user interface"/"UX" features would be a lot more fitting.

This is being incredibly pedantic. "Quality of Life" in this context doesn't refer to literal health and wellbeing, but your 'life' when playing a video-game. "Franchise", for example, means something entirely different if talked about on NeoGAF than it would be in a Business Magazine, that doesn't mean either definition is wrong.

 

[Acerac]

Some people get upset when video games are analyzed or inspected in depth. I think it has to do with feeling that analysis goes against the nature of the fun you are supposed to have?

Granted, this doesn't apply to the specific example in the OP, but it seems to be a fairly common sentiment.

 

[Autoignition]

It really depends on the word and the person. I, personally, cannot stand to see the word "linear" as a harsh criticism for games because it's lost all meaning by this point. I've come to see "too linear" to mean "I can't actually articulate a reason why I don't like it," especially if it's a story-driven game that would make no sense to be opened up.

 

[supernormal]

The only time this is a problem for me is when someone uses some sort of lingo and then proceeds it with a short explanation of what it is. I feel like I got duped into reading a thing twice. Either use your acronym or the meaning behind it.