Support NeoGAF

[TylerDurden4321]

I just watched this interview with Paul Coleman from Codemasters, makers of the DiRT and GRiD games.He mentions the challenge of getting players to experience the full complexity of vehicle dynamics and the fun of mastering them. This got me thinking about this topic.


At some point the driving line became a thing in racing games, because the average player is not particularly great at judging braking points and how much speed can be carried through a corner, but playing with the AI dumbed down and never having close races so spinning out can be caught up again isn't fun either.

Not long after, the Rewind feature became a prominent feature in racing games:

Lately sim and sim-cade racing games seem to be going away from this trend again (corrected version*):

[yes, I excluded open world and bike games, games that are a little too arcade, all the F1 games, lots of smaller Rally games and some important PC sims, feel free to correct my list, if I missed some very important games or remembered the feature-set of some games wrong (and no, nut sure about Forza 7, but highly likely that I got it right)]


Are too many players happy to be bottom-feeding and miss out on the fun of challenging themselves and mastering game mechanics and that's why it's best if these features are taken away?
Or is this just patronizing, elitist bullshit? They were always purely optional features after all...


+++ UPDATE +++

Hi everyone.

Let me explain a little about why we decided to get rid of the Driving Line and change to a Driving Marker.

As you all know, the driving line is a feature that was added for real beginners who do not know were on a track they should be driving.
The line is continually displayed, and the braking point was also adaptively displayed according to the player's vehicle speed and the estimated turning speed in the corner.

This was very effective as a beginner feature, but it also had a side effect.
It was inhibiting players using the Driving Line assist, to advance to a state where they would no longer use the Driving Line feature.

One of the fun aspects of driving on a circuit is in imagining the invisible, fastest line around a corner from the visible corner shape, and driving your car through that line.
However the Driving Line assist feature left too much of an impression because it was so useful; and it was drawing all the attention of the player to just following a displayed line. A player like this only sees the driving line; they don't see the shape of the corner anymore.

Once you are able to control a car to a certain extent, figuring out where to drive on a corner, the strategy behind it, is an important element of the fun in driving.
The better that you become at driving, the peak of enjoyment becomes greater, and I think everyone knows this well.

But the driving line reduces the number of players who will progress to the next level, to enter a realm of enjoyment that arises because of your improved skill.
The Driving Line reduces the number of people proceeding to the next stage.
And it's because unless there is some sort of special reason, a typical player will never think of willingly turning OFF a useful feature.

That means a player will be playing Gran Turismo without ever discovering an important piece in the fun of driving, and seen in the long run, I started to think that it has more demerits than is obvious at first. It increases the number of players who get bored of just tracing lines; getting bored before they really realize the true fun of driving.

That's not to say I'm totally against driving lines, and the driving markers we implemented may not be the only or best idea, but I think it is a point of compromise between two opposing objectives; to take care of beginners who are experiencing everything for the first time, while not interfering with the advancement of a player to the next stage where they can really enjoy driving.

We await all your feedback.
Lastly, a big thank you to all of you who are participating in this test.
I'll post more again if the opportunity presents itself.

 

[StarEye]

Racing lines aren't a new ting. There were Amiga games that had racing lines, if you wanted them.

Rewind is a thing of evil.

 

[GHG]

They should both die. There, I said it.

 

[Mohasus]

Rewinding is fine as long as it is limited per race.

 

[The Jackdog]

i go back and fourth with it.

i like horizon 3's approach. if i want them on its on if i want them off i get a bonus

 

[2blackcats]

They should both die. There, I said it.

Exactly.

Or include them for practicing but times don't count if they are activated.

 

[xxracerxx]

Rewind is the weirdest thing to have in a racing game.

 

[Trace]

They should both die. There, I said it.

Yep.

 

[EatinOlives]

I'm a dirty casual who enjoys and heavily uses rewind. Games like Dirt 3 that had limited rewinds at least kept me in check, but games like Forza that don't have me go nuts with the feature.

I don't find the idea of spending an hour+ on one race because I spin out unexpectedly in one random turn to be fun. Especially if I screw up because a dumb AI decided to ram into me for no reason.

 

[Karak]

I can only speak for whom I have talked to on the channel as I have done a couple random vids and discussions about this since I review so many racing games.

But most of the folks I talked to expressed that without racing lines they wouldn't have entered into the racing genre at all and then graduated to turning them off in the options.

For me its more important to keep having an influx of new gamers every day who feel like they can at least attempt something and then turn those options off when they get better, than to close them out entirely. It was only like 150 folks but it was pretty unanimous.

 

[DOBERMAN INC]

Didn't GT4 have a racing line? I was sure it did.

You had to press L3 or R3 if I remember correctly.

 

[ethomaz]

Thanks God rewind is gone.

Racing lines helps at beginning... so it can be something optional.

 

[jon bones]

even as a casual gamer i hate the rewind button.

it feels so unnatural and totally breaks up the flow of racing - which is like the only reason i play the game.

 

[SolidSnakex]

This is the new system in GT Sport

Markers are set at ideal spots for the entry, apex and exit for a corner. That way its up to the driver to figure out what's the appropriate speed is for hitting those instead of just driving over a line.

 

[5taquitos]

Rewind is the dumbest feature ever added to a racing game.

I'm fine with optional lines, but rewinds are just ridiculous.

 

[ethomaz]

This is the new system in GT Sport

Markers are set at ideal spots for the entry, apex and exit for a corner. That way its up to the driver to figure out what's the appropriate speed is for hitting those instead of just driving over a line.

Yeap... GT looks to be removing more and more the racing lines each interaction.

 

[KRaZyAmmo]

Driveclub uses flags to determine how you corner with red for heavy, yellow for moderate, and green for light turn. I thought it was a good use of having a racing line without actually having a racing line and there's no rewinds.

 

[djplaeskool]

I was a fan of Driveclub's passive flag color system for marking turns. Check your speed, learn the optimal entries and exits via practice.

Also, Mark me up as another anti-rewind advocate.

 

[jacobeid]

They should both die. There, I said it.

Developers should let people turn them on or off depending on preference. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean that others wouldn't.

 

[ethomaz]

Also, Mark me up as another anti-rewind advocate.

The only game I loved the feature was Braid but that was because it was part of the gameplay

PS. The Life is Strange has the feature inside the gameplay too.

 

[Trace]

Developers should let people turn them on or off depending on preference. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean that others wouldn't.

Only if they're banned from any sort of online/scored thing. Practice is fine but they shouldn't be in actual races.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Not understanding the hate for rewind. It's a completely optional single player feature, you don't have to use it. If a game has long load times its preferable to restarting a race.

 

[NoPiece]

Rewind is the weirdest thing to have in a racing game.

They are basically the equivalent of saves or checkpoints in other kinds of games. Not weird, IMO. They can become a crutch, but it can be an incredible convenience when you are playing and your kid jumps in your lap on lap 20 of an endurance race and you spin off the track. Please let us semi-casuals keep it!!

 

[bloodforge]

Both are optional, if you don't like them turn them off.

 

[ethomaz]

Not understanding the hate for rewind. It's a completely optional single player feature, you don't have to use it. If a game has long load times its preferable to restarting a race.

You can restart a race without any load time... the track is already load in the memory.

They are basically the equivalent of saves or checkpoints in other kinds of games.

To be fair is more like save states in emulators.

You can't save during a boss battle but with save state you can... that the difference... it is like a cheat.

Save in the middle of a race going to pit I'm fully ok... there are 8, 10, 20, 24 hours endurances that needs saves in the middle of the race.

 

[TheMan]

I'm ok with both. no game makes you use them if you don't want to, and if having them there makes the games more accessible to a wider audience, then so be it.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

I use both in Horizon 3. And yes I am a filthy noob.

 

[lightchris]

I never use either feature, so I'm fine either way.
Just because I don't need them doesn't mean I'm glad they're taken away though. For some people they may have improved the experience.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

I can only speak for whom I have talked to on the channel as I have done a couple random vids and discussions about this since I review so many racing games.

But most of the folks I talked to expressed that without racing lines they wouldn't have entered into the racing genre at all and then graduated to turning them off in the options.

For me its more important to keep having an influx of new gamers every day who feel like they can at least attempt something and then turn those options off when they get better, than to close them out entirely. It was only like 150 folks but it was pretty unanimous.

This is super important in my opinion.

a) having only car-assists is not enough for newcomers to the sim and sim-cade genres, unless those include brake and steering assists, but at that point you usually feel like you are no longer really in control. The racing line isn't really different from that, but it feels like you are controlling the car.

b) it implies that people want to turn that aid off... I'm not really sure they do. There is not enough incentive in games like Forza Motorsport 6 and GT6 to turn the driving line off.
There is a fear to turn it off, that some extra credits are not enough to overcome it. There should be a system in between ON and OFF ("braking only" is still ON imo).

The new GTS system could be a middle step. You see more of the track, remember the track better and might sooner be willing to turn that aid off as well.




edit:

Driveclub uses flags to determine how you corner with red for heavy, yellow for moderate, and green for light turn. I thought it was a good use of having a racing line without actually having a racing line and there's no rewinds.

I forgot about that. maybe I should add it to the table in OP.
Real world racing tracks have distance markers for mist straights, indicating how far you are away from a corner, but I agree that Driveclub's idea is something more special and should be taken note of.

 

[GHG]

They are basically the equivalent of saves or checkpoints in other kinds of games.

You can save or checkpoint before and after you start the race. Or if it's a long endurance race, when you pit.

There is no logical explaination for your driver suddenly having matrix style time manipulation capabilities.

Concentrate, practice, have patience and respect your opponents. These are all things that you should be learning/doing in racing games but you aren't because you're spending too much time impersonating Neo.

Hence online in games that do have them is a guaranteed clusterfuck.

 

[Danny Dudekisser]

They should both die. There, I said it.

Co-signed. It takes away from the excitement and the skill required. I don't even want these things available as an option.

 

[rrs]

DiRT 1 doesn't have rewinds whatsoever, it was first added in GRID then backported to DiRT2.

Honestly, I do use braking lines in FH3 as it's really hard to memorize every turn in an open world game vs a set track one. Although, I do use rewinds in SP so one crash doesn't ruin an entire race and lead to not fun. As for the flags, I think that's a way better system for handling such things than a line that can be hidden or otherwise out of sight.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

You can restart a race without any load time... the track is already load in the memory.

Load time varies by game and system, thats not a universal rule.

 

[ElNino]

Not understanding the hate for rewind. It's a completely optional single player feature, you don't have to use it. If a game has long load times its preferable to restarting a race.

Loading time notwithstanding, if it helps get people into the game then why not? It has no impact on multiplayer or leader boards so it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

 

[Crankshaft]

I like using the racing line option for breaks only. Sometimes when I am in an off road race, I don't always see where I should be driving.

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

Racing lines are OK because they only give an idea of how to approach corners and, rarely, give the ideal line, just the common, safe line. It's a starting point to developing your skills.

Rewind is nonsense.

 

[Qwyjibo]

I never use driving lines but I'm fine with it being an option. Especially for people learning driving sims.

I do like have rewind in more arcade racers like Forza Horizon 3. It just makes it far more convenient when you have to reset yourself up for certain challenges after failing them. Or if I get stuck on a piece of the map. I don't see why anyone would ever want to use it in a sim racer or during races, though. That just defeats the purpose, IMO. I'd prefer something like they had in the Skate games where you can drop a "save point" and re-spawn there.

 

[mrklaw]

I don't think it is 'people aren't good at judging braking points' - more that racing games have so many tracks and cars, that you don't spend long enough on a single car/track combination to learn the braking points.

In some ways I miss the simplicity of earlier items when you had fewer tracks so you learned each one.


I quite like GT's new marker approach (although couldn't they use cones instead of floating green triangles?). I'd quite like an option of 'dynamic braking markers' that would be like the usual 150/100/50 meter board as you approach a corner, but adding a suggested braking point (cone) based on that corner and the car you're driving. Don't vary it based on your speed, position it based on the speed you should be hitting it at if you've driven well to that point and let you adapt accordingly

 

[TylerDurden4321]

DiRT 1 doesn't have rewinds whatsoever, it was first added in GRID then backported to DiRT2.

That's how I remembered it too. That GRID was the first, but I only rented DiRT 1 and didn't remember it well and the Giant Bomb page said DiRT 1 had the Flashback feature.

 

[ethomaz]

Load time varies by game and system, thats not a universal rule.

Well I never played a racing game that do load times when you choose RESTART... hell since PS1.

 

[Mandoric]

I don't mind static lines existing in practice mode; to the extent that these are supposed to be simulations it is technically possible to paint up a replica track. It's hard to justify anything more than radio chatter in ranked or campaign modes though.

Rewind is absolute garbo, racing is a sport of endurance and precision.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

Loading time notwithstanding, if it helps get people into the game then why not? It has no impact on multiplayer or leader boards so it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Right that's the bottom line for me. If someone wants to repeat a tricky turn until they get it right i don't see the harm. They can then take that knowledge into multiplayer and become a better racer. Beats all the people in multi that never learn and just use your bumper as a brake.

 

[filly]

Racing lines is like having a that switch branded T in the new Zelda game that can be found in a chest with season pass.

It's very inclusion serves to devalue the entire experience.

 

[Tortahegeszto]

GT4 has racing line, but it's not always available, and Shift has racing line as well.
I don't mind them, until they can be turned off. Especially when you earn more points for disabling them, so I could just skip some of the shitty gymkhana and drift events in Dirt 3.

 

[2+2=5]

They should be an option in training modes imo, noobs should be able to choose to use them if they want to.

 

[GHG]

Loading time notwithstanding, if it helps get people into the game then why not? It has no impact on multiplayer or leader boards so it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

It does though, in both. Leaderboard times more often than not include the times of those who use rewind.

And you see the pile ups that occur in racing online? That's because people haven't actually learnt the track before hopping online, hence they are all fighting for the exact same space as they mindlessly follow the line around the track.

I'm all for introducing new players to games, but this is not the way to do it. There was a reason Gran Turismo games had the compulsory licence tests, it was a more organic way of teaching people the basic principles of how to get a car around the track in the most efficient way.

Having easy modes that are arguably cheats is not the way to go about it. Nobody is getting taught anything. Nobody is understanding why they should be braking when they are braking, nobody is understanding why they hit the apex on one corner but deliberately miss it on the next to get the fastest time, nobody is understanding why their car is over/under steering and how to rectify it, nobody is understanding how and when they should and shouldn't be overtaking an opponent. Nobody is getting the rush and adrenaline that nailing all of these aspects in a single race can provide.

It's a problem.

 

[EvB]

Racing lines is like having a that switch branded T in the new Zelda game that can be found in a chest with season pass.

It's very inclusion serves to devalue the entire experience.

I disagree, I really don't simulationenjoy racing games, I'm really bad at them.
However If I follow the driving /braking line in a Forza game, I'm not so bad and the game becomes considerably more enjoyable

 

[Deleted member 752119]

i go back and fourth with it.

i like horizon 3's approach. if i want them on its on if i want them off i get a bonus

Exactly.

Or include them for practicing but times don't count if they are activated.

These for me. They should be optional, and it's nice if there are incentives for turning them off. Also agree they shouldn't be allowable when setting times for leaderboards etc.

I like them for arcade games like FH3, and for practice laps in any game. I just don't have the time and patience to blindly practice. Damn racing wheel and stand is probably my dumbest gaming/hobby purchase, and such a hassle to sell.

 

[fresquito]

I don't think it is 'people aren't good at judging braking points' - more that racing games have so many tracks and cars, that you don't spend long enough on a single car/track combination to learn the braking points.

Not really. Once you learn a track, you know what kind of turn it is next, so you just need to adjust the car at hand to that certain turn. People think you need to learn the gear and braking points for every car, when you "just" need to learn how to drive.

Which leads me to the OP: both methods are useful for people that don't care about driving. They are useless (and counterproductive, even) to people that care about driving.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Not really. Once you learn a track, you know what kind of turn it is next, so you just need to adjust the car at hand to that certain turn. People think you need to learn the gear and braking points for every car, when you "just" need to learn how to drive.

Which leads me to the OP: both methods are useful for people that don't care about driving. They are useless (and counterproductive, even) to people that care about driving.

Many people who post top leaderboard times (that can't be achieved by following the racing line to the point) always race with the racing line turned on, they know their braking points as a mix of points in the environment and grading on the racing line.

Having easy modes that are arguably cheats is not the way to go about it. Nobody is getting taught anything. Nobody is understanding why they should be braking when they are braking, nobody is understanding why they hit the apex on one corner but deliberately miss it on the next to get the fastest time, nobody is understanding why their car is over/under steering and how to rectify it, nobody is understanding how and when they should and shouldn't be overtaking an opponent. Nobody is getting the rush and adrenaline that nailing all of these aspects in a single race can provide.

It's a problem.

But if the real world hard way is too hard for newcomers and the racing line is a bad learning tool for most average gamers, there needs to be another solution to ease the learning curve (and also to encourage going on that learning curve instead of just relying on the ease-in mechanic)

Just fuck those casuals is no answer. Then rather give people the option and not let them race online with others who have it turned off.