Support NeoGAF

[Drackhorn]

First thing I do in racing games is disable the racing line. Never has been a help to me but more like a distraction instead. I race better without and just learn the tracks which is more fun as well.

I have not played a lot of racing games with a rewind option so basically I have learned to do without.

 

[Twiforce]

I'll never not think it's ridiculous how some "hardcore gamers" get so offended by the idea of somebody having fun with a video game in a way that doesn't involve the dame degree of challenge as fhem. Like, as long these features are totally optional it literally doesn't affect you- so if you get upset at the idea of these features existing, maybe you're investing too much of your self-esteem into being good at a fucking video game.

 

[Mascot]

I am hoping the licensing system, particularly for online racing, is robust enough to weed out not only the terrible wreck causing drivers, but also segregate skill levels well.

That is SMS's intention, certainly.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

There's a racing school in pCARS 2..?!

No, wait! I got that from YOU in the pCARS2 thread!!
And fresquito mentioned a racing school too, I think.

-------------

I think what this thread is missing is

- some insight from the "it's optional, there is no reason to take it away"-crowd as to what they think why Polyphony and Codemasters are going away from the driving line and rewind(GT never had this one, but still, they are against it)
- insight from the "those features should burn in a fire crowd" as to why they can't let the super-casual guy not just let his fun with the game in his own way

I think I only remember the one "don't want to race against online against people relying on the racing line and usually never drive without rewind" but that could easily be solved with matchmaking options.

 

[GHG]

This.

Thank god that devs don't give two fucks for the opinions of forum posters.

If people want it in single player, then let them use it.

Well actually they do. During the development of both PCars 1 and 2 this has been talked about. The community pretty much unanimously said no.

The feature does not promote people to actually learn in most instances since many people will continue to use it instead of pushing through and getting better. I'm a believer that whatever you do in life you should always strive to improve and not just take the easy option out just because it happens to exist. The easy option is rarely the better option in the long term. Clearly there are some people who disagree with me but that's fine, rewind has not infected every single racing game out there and there are still quite a few developers who believe there are better ways to learn than to rely on rewind.

And it's worth noting, the sim racing community by and large are very welcoming to new players and are more than happy to help where possible provided said new player wants to learn. In many cases, if the player is not willing to learn, goes to a discussion forum of a game that doesn't have rewind and just complains about the game not having rewind rather than saying "this is where I'm at, how do I get better?", then yes you will get the cold shoulder.

I think I only remember the one "don't want to race against online against people relying on the racing line and usually never drive without rewind" but that could easily be solved with matchmaking options.

This is pretty much my stance on it. It might come off as "elitist" in some people's minds but I simply don't care, my time is too valuable. If I want to race online then I should be able to have a decent experience, not have to fight through a bunch of people who don't have a clue what they are doing, that's a waste of my time. From experience, it is much more likely you will be able to find a decent race against randoms in a game that doesn't have rewind (assetto corsa, PCars, GT, race room experience) vs games that do have it (Forza Motorsport/horizon, F1 games).

So if that's the case then the games with rewind need to do better and find a way to separate players based on skill level.

 

[Synth]

- some insight from the "it's optional, there is no reason to take it away"-crowd as to what they think why Polyphony and Codemasters are going away from the driving line and rewind(GT never had this one, but still, they are against it)

Honestly, it only really seems to be the Dirt franchise making any notable shift currently. Markers overlaid onto the track that tell you effectively the same information as a braking line, are just a cosmetic difference, the player is going to be "connecting the dots" in their mind when they see them regardless.

Honestly, I struggle to think any real reason to remove the features, other than to force a minimum level of difficulty onto all players. Much like I don't bat an eyelid when a game doesn't offer selectable difficulties, I also don't find it strange when a developer doesn't offer features like driving lines and rewind... but I also don't see how their omission helps to do anything but raise the barrier for entry.

One thing I would be interested to hear about though, seeing as I don't really play the Dirt games is... when contrasted with Dirt 3, how does the experience of playing Dirt 4 differ for a player that opted to leave the racing line and rewind off in the previous game?

 

[ramparter]

Rewind definitely killed a lot of challenge on Forza seiries for me. I didn't abuse it but there were many times I saved a race using it.

 

[Synth]

Well actually they do. During the development of both PCars 1 and 2 this has been talked about. The community pretty much unanimously said no.

The feature does not promote people to actually learn in most instances since many people will continue to use it instead of pushing through and getting better. I'm a believer that whatever you do in life you should always strive to improve and not just take the easy option out just because it happens to exist. The easy option is rarely the better option in the long term. Clearly there are some people who disagree with me but that's fine, rewind has not infected every single racing game out there and there are still quite a few developers who believe there are better ways to learn than to rely on rewind.

And it's worth noting, the sim racing community by and large are very welcoming to new players and are more than happy to help where possible provided said new player wants to learn. In many cases, if the player is not willing to learn, goes to a discussion forum of a game that doesn't have rewind and just complains about the game not having rewind rather than saying "this is where I'm at, how do I get better?", then yes you will get the cold shoulder.

Citing online discussions is a very loaded sample. Sure, when you surround yourself with likeminded people, then they all "unanimously" vote no to something like a racing. It would seem that the developers actually didn't take that opinion on board though, if the final game contained one anyway, despite the apparent unanimous call to not include one. They must realise that the casual racer that would vote "yes" is likely to not be on a community board for a game currently in development... shocking thought, I know.

As for it not promoting people to learn... I find that stance to typically be held by those themselves had learnt without the help of one. I've mentioned before, that I previously hated Gran Turismo, coming from games like Daytona USA and Sega Rally, as I had no idea what I was doing, and why I was failing to make turns successfully. I wasn't until I played F355 Challenge, which happened to be the first racing game I ever encountered with a dynamic racing line, where I finally learned what I needed to in order to play the game successfully. This then transferred onto Gran Turismo 4, and now racing games are one of my favourite genres. Sure, there will be people that never bother to better themselves, and grow beyond their reliance of these features,,, but this holds true even when the assistance isn't given. I've seen people ride the wall in Three Seven Speedway for YEARS, never learning the game's drift mechanics, and god help you if you find yourself anywhere near them as they do so. There are people that have played Street Fighter since Street Fighter 2, and are still flowchart Ken. These people will fuck up your race regardless. They were doing so in the original MotoGP and Project Gotham 2 on Xbox, where doing so to all the AI in Gran Turismo 2, and would still be doing it online in Forza Motorsport 6.

The only thing that prevents this happening, is when a game is rendered so inaccessible at its core, that they stop playing entirely... which...

This is pretty much my stance on it. It might come off as "elitist" in some people's minds but I simply don't care, my time is too valuable. If I want to race online then I should be able to have a decent experience, not have to fight through a bunch of people who don't have a clue what they are doing, that's a waste of my time. From experience, it is much more likely you will be able to find a decent race against randoms in a game that doesn't have rewind (assetto corsa, PCars, GT, race room experience) vs games that do have it (Forza Motorsport/horizon, F1 games).

So if that's the case then the games with rewind need to do better and find a way to separate players based on skill level.

... basically seems to be what you want. To just have these people not play online (or that game at all) instead.

As you mention in your last sentence. If Forza has a problem with stuff like this, then it's a matchmaking problem, not one of the feature existing at all. A poor player is just more likely to have the confidence to play online in Forza, they should just be placed far away from players proven not to crash.

 

[Fox Mulder]

Rewind definitely killed a lot of challenge on Forza seiries for me. I didn't abuse it but there were many times I saved a race using it.

forza is kind of a weird example though. The career is entirely built around short races that force you to storm through the grid to a top 3 finish just to progress. It encourages aggressive driving and rewind use. This leads to all the drivatar AI being shit and causing crashes at turn one. They'll even cut corners at spa and abu dhabi.

I used rewind and drive line in f1 to learn tracks and handling and don't use it anymore.

 

[GHG]

Citing online discussions is a very loaded sample. Sure, when you surround yourself with likeminded people, then they all "unanimously" vote no to something like a racing. It would seem that the developers actually didn't take that opinion on board though, if the final game contained one anyway, despite the apparent unanimous call to not include one. They must realise that the casual racer that would vote "yes" is likely to not be on a community board for a game currently in development... shocking thought, I know.

As for it not promoting people to learn... I find that stance to typically be held by those themselves had learnt without the help of one. I've mentioned before, that I previously hated Gran Turismo, coming from games like Daytona USA and Sega Rally, as I had no idea what I was doing, and why I was failing to make turns successfully. I wasn't until I played F355 Challenge, which happened to be the first racing game I ever encountered with a dynamic racing line, where I finally learned what I needed to in order to play the game successfully. This then transferred onto Gran Turismo 4, and now racing games are one of my favourite genres. Sure, there will be people that never bother to better themselves, and grow beyond their reliance of these features,,, but this holds true even when the assistance isn't given. I've seen people ride the wall in Three Seven Speedway for YEARS, never learning the game's drift mechanics, and god help you if you find yourself anywhere near them as they do so. There are people that have played Street Fighter since Street Fighter 2, and are still flowchart Ken. These people will fuck up your race regardless. They were doing so in the original MotoGP and Project Gotham 2 on Xbox, where doing so to all the AI in Gran Turismo 2, and would still be doing it online in Forza Motorsport 6.

The only thing that prevents this happening, is when a game is rendered so inaccessible at its core, that they stop playing entirely... which...



... basically seems to be what you want. To just have these people not play online (or that game at all) instead.

As you mention in your last sentence. If Forza has a problem with stuff like this, then it's a matchmaking problem, not one of the feature existing at all. A poor player is just more likely to have the confidence to play online in Forza, they should just be placed far away from players proven not to crash.

1. Project cars doesn't have rewind.
2. I have never once said people use use rewind should not have the ability to play online.

 

[Synth]

1. Project cars doesn't have rewind.
2. I have never once said people use use rewind should not have the ability to play online.

I was actually referring to the racing line. Didn't realise you were specifically referring to rewind in this case, because you tend to be similarly dismissive of both.

You're not directly saying these people shouldn't be playing online... but that's pretty much the difference you see between games that do, and don't feature it. Forza has a lower barrier of entry across the board, and that translates to online. It's not that people are naturally inclined to git gud when you take accessibility options away. They're just more likely to play something else entirely. All you need to do in Forza's case is not match up crash-happy racers with clean racers. And in all honesty, in all of the racers I've played online, Forza is hardly among the worst offenders, and the others (MotoGP, Daytona USA, Driveclub) had no rewind in sight.

 

[Mascot]

No, wait! I got that from YOU in the pCARS2 thread!!

What I actually said was

I'm sure I read recently that there might be a 'driving school' in pCARS 2 for learning race craft, but I can't find the quote.

Please remember I drink an awful lot of whisky.

 

[ogbg]

I found the colour coded corner speed flags in driveclub to be a really nice driving aid which still offered moderate challenge . I prefer that to lines or rewind.

 

[Raptomex]

Rewinding can stay but I think there should be an option to turn it off.

 

[Synth]

Rewinding can stay but I think there should be an option to turn it off.

I have some good news!

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

They should both die. There, I said it.

Exactly.

Or include them for practicing but times don't count if they are activated.

Just don't use them?

 

[Bastardo]

First simulation game with racing lines I played was Formula 1 Grand Prix by Microprose in 1992. It had many other different helper functions, which were completely optional.

Without those features I would have been totally unable to play this game. Turning one feature after the other off allowed me to learn how to play sim-racers. So yeah, I think helper features should continue to exist as they teach new players how to play the games.

 

[dLMN8R]

Rewinding can stay but I think there should be an option to turn it off.

I think there are literally zero racing games where rewinding can't be disabled. Same goes for the driving line.

 

[Synth]

I think there are literally zero racing games where rewinding can't be disabled. Same goes for the driving line.

Actually, I don't think you can outright turn it off in FM5. You have to just not use it.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

Actually, I don't think you can outright turn it off in FM5. You have to just not use it.

If it's the same as in previous games and horizon, them you should be able to disable it. Traditionally, disabling it and other aids increases the amount of xp that can be earned after a race.

 

[Upinsmoke]

Rewinding can stay but I think there should be an option to turn it off.

I honestly don't think it should be included, especially in games that call themselves "simulations". Your marketing your game to certain people by doing that aren't you?

Also what happens when I go online and end up playing people that use rewind because they make mistakes but can't rewind online? Surely it's lowering the standard of racing and ruining it?

 

[Synth]

If it's the same as in previous games and horizon, them you should be able to disable it. Traditionally, disabling it and other aids increases the amount of xp that can be earned after a race.

Nah, you can in the majority, as I usually do... but FM5 doesn't appear to have it as a setting. It just deducts a percentage if you use it in a race.

I honestly don't think it should be included, especially in games that call themselves "simulations". Your marketing your game to certain people by doing that aren't you?

Also what happens when I go online and end up playing people that use rewind because they make mistakes but can't rewind online? Surely it's lowering the standard of racing and ruining it?

They don't really market it as a hardcore sim though (certainly less so than Gran Turismo used to), and I don't think hardcore sim racer fans would go into it with the expectation of getting a iRacing out of it. They put the accessibility front-and-center (to the point of annoyingly forcing the assists for the opening race). Forza is marketed as a car culture game first and foremost.

 

[dLMN8R]

The pedantry and elitism in this thread is fucking off the charts.

Look, you can configure all sorts of options in Microsoft Flight Simulator X to make things really easy and accessible. It doesn't mean it's not a flight sim.

Forza 6 is absolutely a hardcore driving sim if you turn off all the assists. Are other games even more crazy in-depth? Sure, I guess? But options you can enable/disable don't take away from what's there when it's possible to configure it exactly as you want.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Honestly, it only really seems to be the Dirt franchise making any notable shift currently. Markers overlaid onto the track that tell you effectively the same information as a braking line, are just a cosmetic difference, the player is going to be "connecting the dots" in their mind when they see them regardless.

I think it will make a significant difference for the learning curve of players, because for example

- knowing where to start braking doesn't tell you when to turn in (thought they said turn-in markers as well, but didn't see one in SolidSnakeX's pic on page1) and
- should you still be braking while turning in,
- should you maximize your radius and use the curbs and most of all:
- seeing the apex of a corner still leaves lts of room for interpretation!
2 examples:

or

Another example from my experience in Forza:
You see quite a few people use the curbs coming out of a corner, probably it's easy too see that there is still room there and that way they could accelerate harder out of the turn, even if the driving line stays on the track and doesn't show them this "trick". But almost nobody uses a curb(or asphalt not marked as track) at corner entry to get a wider radius, because they just follow the racing line blindly! (and back when I drove with the racing line I did exactly the same). People will think more about that stuff with the system in GTS.

Edit:
and well said:

They don't really market it as a hardcore sim though (certainly less so than Gran Turismo used to), and I don't think hardcore sim racer fans would go into it with the expectation of getting a iRacing out of it. They put the accessibility front-and-center (to the point of annoyingly forcing the assists for the opening race). Forza is marketed as a car culture game first and foremost.

same goes for MS Flight Simulator by the way. Both are very subpar on the simulation front.
Forza definitely is still "sim" as it doesn't actively change real world physics to make things easier or more fun (like Driveclub for example), but Turn 10 conveniently overlooks many parts of a simulation or does not investigate certain physics aspects not as close as others.

 

[Synth]

The pedantry and elitism in this thread is fucking off the charts.

Look, you can configure all sorts of options in Microsoft Flight Simulator X to make things really easy and accessible. It doesn't mean it's not a flight sim.

Forza 6 is absolutely a hardcore driving sim if you turn off all the assists. Are other games even more crazy in-depth? Sure, I guess? But options you can enable/disable don't take away from what's there when it's possible to configure it exactly as you want.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that Forza can't function as a hardcore sim. That's actually something I'd consider myself rather unqualified to judge (I don't even drive irl). I'm simply saying that it's not marketed as such, because Turn 10 make sure to portray it as accessible to those that aren't as heavily into the subgenre. This is in contrast of how something like Dirt Rally is portrayed, which would have many gamers apprehensive about picking it up, as they'd expect to be met with constant failure.

I mean, Forza 4 was demoed on stage at E3 being played with the Kinect. If someone runs out buys Forza Motorsport, and then complains that there's a bunch of lesser skilled players on there as a result of the assists it has as options, then it's kinda on them... it's made pretty clear that it's not designed to be exclusive to the deathly serious players only.

I think it will make a significant difference for the learning curve of players, because for example

- knowing where to start braking doesn't tell you when to turn in (thought they said turn-in markers as well, but didn't see one in SolidSnakeX's pic on page1) and
- should you still be braking while turning in,
- should you maximize your radius and use the curbs and most of all:
- seeing the apex of a corner still leaves lts of room for interpretation!
2 examples:

or

Another example from my experience in Forza:
You see quite a few people use the curbs coming out of a corner, probably it's easy too see that there is still room there and that way they could accelerate harder out of the turn, even if the driving line stays on the track and doesn't show them this "trick". But almost nobody uses a curb(or asphalt not marked as track) at corner entry to get a wider radius, because they just follow the racing line blindly! (and back when I drove with the racing line I did exactly the same). People will think more about that stuff with the system in GTS.

To be honest, I'm not too familiar with what GTS actually shows, and so was just going off your description in the OP.

I guess it depends on the frequency of the markers really. In the examples you've given the markers for the entry, apex and exit for each turn wouldn't be in the same places for each of the lines being represented. In the second image detailing the late apex for example, if each of the plot points was used as a marker, there's very little room for interpretation. Pretty much everyone would see the same line with those points. If you delete the second point however, then it's far more open to interpretation. Same with the fast and slow example for the consecutive turn. Start dropping plot points on those lines, and they won't look the same as each other, and each would likely describe the original line they're derived from quite clearly, unless the points are too sparse (at which point they're arguably insufficient for the purpose).

I can agree though, that prior to the first marker, the player will likely act slightly differently. In that way it would be more similar to the "braking only" line in Forza, where the line is only drawn as you approach the turn itself.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

To be honest, I'm not too familiar with what GTS actually shows, and so was just going off your description in the OP.

I guess it depends on the frequency of the markers really. In the examples you've given the markers for the entry, apex and exit for each turn wouldn't be in the same places for each of the lines being represented. In the second image detailing the late apex for example, if each of the plot points was used as a marker, there's very little room for interpretation. Pretty much everyone would see the same line with those points. If you delete the second point however, then it's far more open to interpretation. Same with the fast and slow example for the consecutive turn. Start dropping plot points on those lines, and they won't look the same as each other, and each would likely describe the original line they're derived from quite clearly, unless the points are too sparse (at which point they're arguably insufficient for the purpose).

True, we don't really know how that works. I HOPE they leave room for interpretation, because it all really depends on the car, how it's set up and what your driving style is.
This should also be explained in the license tests. GT always was pretty good at this, but I always had the feeling that below a certain base knowledge (and level of curiosity AND skill with the controller) those license tests and their instructions/explanations/tips are lost on the player.

I can agree though, that prior to the first marker, the player will likely act slightly differently. In that way it would be more similar to the "braking only" line in Forza, where the line is only drawn as you approach the turn itself.

The braking-only line is displayed really early, hardly any turns in the game that it doesn't show up (basically only not displayed in full-throttle sections). So that it not a good "ease in"-tool in my opinion.

 

[JamboGT]

I think it is something that license tests a la GT helps with as well, not the first few maybe but the later ones teaching corner types and the like. Need to make that gold medal haaaaaaaaaaaaard

 

[TylerDurden4321]

I think it is something that license tests a la GT helps with as well, not the first few maybe but the later ones teaching corner types and the like. Need to make that gold medal haaaaaaaaaaaaard

Never played any of them with a wheel up until 5 and felt like many of the golds in 5 were outright trolling. 6 had some not-good ones, but overall they were really good.

Again, the instruction text is really good... for people like me and you, but there should be more stuff a 14-year old, who bought the game because "yo, that Supra is SICK!!!", would get even if he does the license tests out of other reasons than wanting to learn and get better (campaign progression, earn a car, beat a friend, "because it's in the game").

 

[JamboGT]

I miss that days of the PS1 games where golds were properly hard!

There are replays as well of each test as well but maybe they need to be more upfront/played with the text?

Personally the issue is something I have worked at from a design side and it is very hard striking a balance. I think games in the vein of GT and Forza also help just because of the career progression, starting in a low powered car and working your way up so you can learn.

 

[Mohasus]

What do you guys think about auto-braking?

 

[Norwegian_Imposter]

I can only speak for whom I have talked to on the channel as I have done a couple random vids and discussions about this since I review so many racing games.

But most of the folks I talked to expressed that without racing lines they wouldn't have entered into the racing genre at all and then graduated to turning them off in the options.

For me its more important to keep having an influx of new gamers every day who feel like they can at least attempt something and then turn those options off when they get better, than to close them out entirely. It was only like 150 folks but it was pretty unanimous.

Yeah mate, Its the same with the difficulty settings in many games, there should always be an easy mode for that same reason.

 

[Mascot]

What do you guys think about auto-braking?

Useful for disabled people, very young children and anybody who has never driven a car before.

Its very inclusion will inevitably cheapen any claims about your game being a serious simulation, though.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Useful for disabled people, very young children and anybody who has never driven a car before.

Mascot! Nice...

my nephew agrees.

edit:

Yeah mate, Its the same with the difficulty settings in many games, there should always be an easy mode for that same reason.

One of the problems, as I see it, is that there is no "normal" that you can go to if you had enough of "easy" or want to replay the game and challenge yourself some.
It's like going from "I'm too young to die" to "Ultra-Violence" directly. There should be something between racing line ON and OFF (and as I mentioned before "braking LINE"-only as in Forza is not it!).

 

[DoctorEkkoUK]

I kind of hate rewind and def feel like it lowers the stakes . But I use it in single player and there are those times when you've raced perfectly for the whole race then mess up on 1 corner where you need will of iron to resist pressing that y button

 

[Yoday]

I like how Forza handles it by giving you more reward for turning that stuff off. I tend to start a new Forza with different assists on and then gradually turn them off at my own pace. I always leave rewind on though, as I find it infuriating when the smallest mistake can ruin an otherwise flawless race.

 

[Synth]

What do you guys think about auto-braking?

I think it's utterly disgusting, lol. But I won't complain about the option being there.

 

[Bobnob]

Sim steering and normal steering in forza kind of annoy me, sim is faster but only by a fraction but in a race normal steering is safer.Why cant forza just give us all 1 option its almost unfair to sim user especially with tcs off.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Kaz released a note on the GTS Beta Forums, I don't really know, if I'm allowed to post it, but I checked and you could find it with google without being a beta tester, so here we go:

Hi everyone.

Let me explain a little about why we decided to get rid of the Driving Line and change to a Driving Marker.

As you all know, the driving line is a feature that was added for real beginners who do not know were on a track they should be driving.
The line is continually displayed, and the braking point was also adaptively displayed according to the player's vehicle speed and the estimated turning speed in the corner.

This was very effective as a beginner feature, but it also had a side effect.
It was inhibiting players using the Driving Line assist, to advance to a state where they would no longer use the Driving Line feature.

One of the fun aspects of driving on a circuit is in imagining the invisible, fastest line around a corner from the visible corner shape, and driving your car through that line.
However the Driving Line assist feature left too much of an impression because it was so useful; and it was drawing all the attention of the player to just following a displayed line. A player like this only sees the driving line; they don't see the shape of the corner anymore.

Once you are able to control a car to a certain extent, figuring out where to drive on a corner, the strategy behind it, is an important element of the fun in driving.
The better that you become at driving, the peak of enjoyment becomes greater, and I think everyone knows this well.

But the driving line reduces the number of players who will progress to the next level, to enter a realm of enjoyment that arises because of your improved skill.
The Driving Line reduces the number of people proceeding to the next stage.
And it's because unless there is some sort of special reason, a typical player will never think of willingly turning OFF a useful feature.

That means a player will be playing Gran Turismo without ever discovering an important piece in the fun of driving, and seen in the long run, I started to think that it has more demerits than is obvious at first. It increases the number of players who get bored of just tracing lines; getting bored before they really realize the true fun of driving.

That's not to say I'm totally against driving lines, and the driving markers we implemented may not be the only or best idea, but I think it is a point of compromise between two opposing objectives; to take care of beginners who are experiencing everything for the first time, while not interfering with the advancement of a player to the next stage where they can really enjoy driving.

We await all your feedback.
Lastly, a big thank you to all of you who are participating in this test.
I'll post more again if the opportunity presents itself.

Also added it to OP.

 

[supernormal]

I like how they show braking points in Drive Club with flags physically on the track. Seems like something that could be on an actual race track (I have no idea if this is used in real life.)

 

[Alienfan]

Forza figured it out by attaching bonuses to keeping those feature off. It's the perfect solution

 

[Plinko]

Taking out that "press y to rewind" is a solid way to get me to never buy another Forza game again. Stick with reducing the rewards for using it instead.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

I like how they show braking points in Drive Club with flags physically on the track. Seems like something that could be on an actual race track (I have no idea if this is used in real life.)

No, most people who drive on a track, know the track pretty good already from maps or seeing races there (or a simulator), but some track days have beginner hours or courses and they put cones on the side of the track that show (safe and advised) brake point, corner entry/turn-in, apex and out.

Forza figured it out by attaching bonuses to keeping those feature off. It's the perfect solution

Taking out that "press y to rewind" is a solid way to get me to never buy another Forza game again. Stick with reducing the rewards for using it instead.

Have you guys looked at the economy in Forza? The reward for turning that stuff off does jack shit compared to the level up bonuses, all driving-aid bonuses don't mean anything, that's like 1% of your overall winnings.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

I personally like the idea of a subtle braking point marker on the side of the track or tyre marks on the track but I don't like the idea of mainstream games forcing people to race "the right way".

The player should be given incentives to turn off those assists, like Forza does by giving you varying credit/XP bonuses for racing without assists or driving lines. They could tinker with the level of the bonuses but it's a pretty solid system.

You have to cater to the much-derided casual players in order to ensure that big budget driving games stay relevant.

 

[Norns]

Once Forza gets rid of Drivitars I can shut off rewind.

Other than that. No assists in anything.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Forza handles this perfectly with the above-mentioned cash and XP bonuses for disabling various assists.

I've used the rewind feature in Forza all the time to experiment and learn corners without reloading the entire race. It's a useful tool, and I think the kneejerk reaction to "lazy players getting away with being casual" is blinding people to several of the reasons rewind exists.

 

[Mascot]

Maybe only allow driving line and/or rewind for practice sessions, but disable them in actual races?

That way the 'learn a corner' brigade are happy, as are the 'level playing field' racing mob.

 

[Norns]

Maybe only allow driving line and/or rewind for practice sessions, but disable them in actual races?

That way the 'learn a corner' brigade are happy, as are the 'level playing field' racing mob.

I don't understand the level playing field thing.

If I know a corner I'm going to be much faster than anyone using a driving line.

I'd rather have folks using a driving line than rear ending me?

 

[fbutron]

Yeah kill it with fire!!

Takes out a big part of being a simulator, keep practicing that curve to be better and improve your times.

 

[Falchion]

I think they should be put in, maybe even defaulted off, for the same reason I think there should be difficulty options for games like Dark Souls. Not everyone wants the same experience so if someone wants to experience the tracks and cars without having to memorize all 27 brake points on a particular track, the game should be able to provide that. I prefer when games incentivize players turning off the assists for extra experience or money. I know on the Forza games there are some assists I leave on and some, like full racing lines and rewinds, that I turn off. Giving players options and rewarding the developer intended playstyle is the best way to approach it I feel like.

 

[TylerDurden4321]

Maybe only allow driving line and/or rewind for practice sessions, but disable them in actual races?

That way the 'learn a corner' brigade are happy, as are the 'level playing field' racing mob.

It's somewhat helpful to learn a corner at first, but later on, without a delta-timer, how would I know if I'm ACTUALLY faster... even then I'd have to remember the number on the timer from my last replays.

The best would be to drive a track, then hit Y for start-marker, and later Y again for stop-marker, create a practice loop for that section that starts you at your start-marker again after you passed the stop-marker and show a nice big delta-bar and timer on screen. Also let me change the car setup during without having to exit that loop.
That's what I really want for learning and perfecting a track.