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The underlying reason Trump won: a large number of voters are living in fantasy land
- Thread starter boiled goose
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StrategyFan
Member
numerically speaking, US Christianity is the biggest group of people responsible for Trump
nobody expected them to vote against the GOP so they aren't "swing" voters, but if you break down the numbers they are still the ones providing Trump with the most votes
nobody expected them to vote against the GOP so they aren't "swing" voters, but if you break down the numbers they are still the ones providing Trump with the most votes
Count Dookkake
Member
This is why all the recent focus on fake news is so hilariously worthless.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
I still think the biggest mistake of all was nominating someone so disliked that it made Trump look okay by comparison. I thought Clinton would be stronger against Trump than Sanders but that was probably wrong.
Goldenroad
Member
Living in a fantasy land is kind of another way of saying "too stupid to know they are being lied to"...and yeah, we all figured that out a while ago.
She did come across as someone paying lip service to everything except the free college part.
She was distrusted by Sander's voters like myself because she definetly represented the corporate class more than the labor class. When Sanders lost it was illogical to vote for Trump for many reasons but Clinton didn't do anything abnormal to prove she was really any more interested in doing better than serve up lip service. She was trusted to keep the status quo and nothing more.
That was undesirable but Trump advocating chaos and Trumpism was way worse.
What would you suggest doing to earn their vote? Abortion is just too strong a wedge issue. A candidate could come out as the Antichrist himself and Evangelicals would say "well he's probably just joking, and he's anti-abortion, so I gotta vote for him."
The only way to get these people to not vote for Republicans, I think, is to attack Biblical literalism.
AstroNut325
Member
One thing I would add are the people who think they're somehow above it all. They keep saying things like "None of the candidates are good" or "both sides are the same". When I press these people on these statements, they never provide anything beyond "they're all dirty politicians" or something of that sort.
I've met people that think we can have universal healthcare just by taxing the super rich. I've met people that believe that votes should be dependent on income, as in... someone with a 100K income should have more votes than someone making 10K! I've met people that think welfare strictly goes to blacks and hispanics (while this person's mother was on medicaid!).
Where are they getting all this BS?
I've met people that think we can have universal healthcare just by taxing the super rich. I've met people that believe that votes should be dependent on income, as in... someone with a 100K income should have more votes than someone making 10K! I've met people that think welfare strictly goes to blacks and hispanics (while this person's mother was on medicaid!).
Where are they getting all this BS?
thehypocrite
Member
Wow. I'm shocked by your semi-admision of error. There's still hope.
embrace King James as your Lord and saviour
deadscreensky
Member
While I basically agree with you, the sad truth is that absolutely everybody makes decisions based on emotions, not reason. I'm not pulling both sides garbage, this is just how human brains works, it's basic neuroscience. Our decisions are driven almost entirely by emotions, and at best reason is used to justify those decisions later. (Decisions are formed before the reasoning parts of our brain are even notified.)
This Plato ideal of philosopher-kings making rational decisions is a fantasy -- human brains can't do that.
But that's not really taking away from your main point. If humans make all of their decisions based on emotions (and they do), it's incredibly important the stuff they feed their brains isn't overly paranoid or delusional. You need to feel emotions (and hence make decisions) about something approaching actual reality, not doomsday fairy tales about illegal Mexican invaders and transgender bathroom perverts. We worry about the security of our borders, our homes and property, our loved ones, our own physical selves -- but when it comes to our brains the gates tend to be wide open and we willingly let all sorts of crazy, dangerous shit in there.
(I have no solutions.)
And yeah, this is one of the main reasons Clinton was such a poor choice of candidate. It's not fair or rational, but huge numbers of people hate her, they have an enormously negative emotional reaction to her.
LegendofJoe
Member
There's no other option, they're too brainwashed to be brought over. And they aren't needed to get back into power at the federal, state, and local level - Millenials, Gen Z, and Latinos are more than enough.
thehypocrite
Member
I think we should do that and also make them face the bullshit they enabled with their actions. Shame them into not voting again is a positive for progressive causes.
Goldenroad
Member
Define "religious society". If you're talking about a theocracy, where there is no separation between church and state, like many Evangelical Americans want, there really aren't that many of those countries in the world, and most of them do do this shit.
thehypocrite
Member
I think he's referring to the ones in the USA though. At least that's my impression by how he bounded his statement.
LegendofJoe
Member
I'd like to see this as well, evangelicals deserve to be shamed for their perversion of Christianity. Some Democratic, fire-breathing Catholic Latinos in Congress would do the job just fine. A Latino Kennedy in other words, we need to find that person asap.
We've had this kind of thread before btw, and the issue isn't the white evangelical, because we already know they vote republican. That's a known factor. The biggest issue were basically almost every other white demographic (like more white women voted for Trump than Hillary), and higher upticks than thought of minority demographics.
boiled goose
good with gravy
They are misinformed about "Mexicans" and "Muslims" being "bad" and "dangerous".
They are misinformed about whether either of those two policies is actually logical or effective.
Bigotry is a product of ignorance.
Saint Gregory
Member
That's definitely where my ire is directed. I've traveled all over the world and never experienced the kind of hypocrisy that you typically see from most American "Christians". If Jesus came back today they'd most likely crucify him again for being a socialist liberal hippy.
They are not misinformed. The data debunking that is all out there and easily accessible. They chose to not look or outright did not care.
The danger I feel, is thinking any of you are above it. Humans are not rational, like we just biologically aren't. We pick inane and pointless shit to lose out cool over, to cheer over. Only an idiot starts with the assumption that humans are rational agents. This to me is why our systems are so messed up, they need to understand things like voter identity are absolutely real to the people it matters to, you can't just say "just pick a side" if the person you are talking to aren't onboard with either. Because that person will call your bluff and now it's everyone's problem. Instead of trying to stack everyone into two groups against their will a smart person would realize that they should allow people to diversify as much as possible so that you can't have an us versus them narrative and you have to use commonality to win support, not just double down on a niche the system gave a little bit too much power to.
Vehenently disagree, and you acknowledge in the first dozen words why this is such an ignorant position.
Polioliolio
Member
The discussion about Fake News and being able to have discussions with polarized people, is pointless, as long as one side starts with a belief, and makes the facts up as they go, just like they do with their religions.
thehypocrite
Member
If you care you can find about that yourself and create a thread for the discussion of that.
thehypocrite
Member
He would be a fake Jesus?/alternative Jesus?/alt-left Jesus?
Saint Gregory
Member
Considering how many state Republican parties were openly bragging about minority suppression I'm not even sure if that's a fair question to pose.
A Fish Aficionado
I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
See R, vote R.
Some people just don't think.
Some people just don't think.
thehypocrite
Member
It's not. Minorities, the less empowered, apparently have the responsibility to save us all.
What? Have they not studied the history of western Christainity? I can't believe this. How the hell are sermons actually going to help them? They aren't learning anything, it seems like the US churches are just a place to go and feel good for a couple of hours. You don't learn history, you don't learn real personal responsibility?
Considering what we know about Trump would you argue he's any better informed than his core constituents?
Catholics and *cough* Mormons *cough* don't feel this way in significant numbers.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
People voted Trump because they hated Clinton for some reason.
fabricated backlash
Member
Echo chambers that dismiss any opposing view also qualify for the label fantasy land.
Of course. The problem now in America is Puritan roots combined with a terrible universal education system and the systemic white supremacy and patriarchy tied to widespread religious political movements.
More_Badass
Member
They have to assume it's wrong or inaccurate first. It doesn't matter how accessible data is if you think you already are informed
The fury on the Democratic side is palpable now. All of those years of taking Obama for granted made Democrats soft, and now I'm seeing a more energized Democratic party than I've ever seen.
If the Dems can keep it up and field even just a moderately appealing candidate in 2020, they are going to have a real shot to pop Trump and his supporters in the mouth.
If the Dems can keep it up and field even just a moderately appealing candidate in 2020, they are going to have a real shot to pop Trump and his supporters in the mouth.
Enosh
Member
what possible interest do those people have in voting for a party that constantly mocks and clearly despises them?
therealist
Member
Every single voter is oblivious to most issues in the world. Oblivious republicans people go out and vote, oblivious democrats don't.
Wasn't most of Hillary's campaign ads not about her or her policy but "Trump is bad."?
toddhunter
Member
Or flip it around. If these people stop voting for the republicans no matter what other evil shit they do, then the republicans will stop doing evil shit.
I would love to see religious fundamentalists explaining this at the gates of heaven:
"But we voted to restrict womens rights! That is most important right?"
"You fucked over huge groups of people all over america and the world, destroyed the environment, caused transgender people to suffer, started wars and overall led to hate being spread across the world. Did you even think this through?"
"Well... no. Am I going to hell?"
"Hell? Have you paid any attention to what religion is supposed to be about?"
....
The good news is it probably doesn't matter too much. The states run by these people will get worse, but they are already lost causes.
LegendofJoe
Member
Minorities together with non-shitty white people, yeah they have that responsibility. Who do you think makes up the Democratic party?
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