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I don't understand healers (OP mains Hanzo)

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"(I have reported the moderator)"

i'm dead

Or getting blamed when the DPS decides to pull mobs before promptly dying.

My biggest pet peeve is when a tank, previously being rather conservative with their pulling, suddenly bolts and takes a massive pull without telling me. I don't mind large pulls, man, just make sure you tell me beforehand that you're going to speed up or do super non-standard pulls. I kinda need to be ready to adjust to keep your ass alive.

Maybe I've been lucky, but most of the toxicity I've found was in PotD. Not at the end-game raids/salt mines yet, though.
 

Venfayth

Member
Yeah weird title edit that only serves to continue to derail the thread, there has been some interesting discussion about healers so far despite it. lol funny joke tho
 

Akuun

Looking for meaning in GAF
Mercy has damage boost and really good mobility if you have team members who are naturally all over the place.

It's pretty fun flying between Reinhardt, Winston, and Pharah.

I think the title change is unfairly mean to the OP. It could have been a discussion about designing healers into a game, and now it's just a shitty dogpile on the OP for suggesting it.
 

Silvawuff

Member
While I don't have much experience with Overwatch healing, I've been playing healers in MMOs for a long time, and I can tell you a good healer does more than just heal. You can fill almost any other party role in pinch.

I like to play WHM in FFXIV and if you know what you're doing, you're dishing damage while keeping your party up and anticipating damage, buffs, etc. It's n-th degree multitasking and split-second decision making that can make, break, or carry a fight. Some people can't handle the pressure or wrap their head around the role, so they best they can do is put it down instead.

If you want to look at this a bit deeper, a lot of the games you're mentioning carry Japanese game philosophy by design; that is, everyone has a role and everyone is important to the success of the team as a whole.
 
Pre-mod title edit: Healers are bad game design (I have reported the moderator.)

The_Real_Story_Behind_Black_Guy_On_The_Phone_Meme-500x500.jpg


lmao, at least you didn't get called a Mei main
 

GraveRobberX

Platinum Trophy: Learned to Shit While Upright Again.
Resistancec 2 Co-Op would suck major ass if there was no Medic

Heal and Freeze enemies for your team...

Plants vs Zombies 1 & 2 change the whole dynamic of battle if not many healers on 1 side
You just see a wave of Plants or Zombie bum-rushing in and massacring everything if a team goes heavy on damage and not heals
Just getting revives save so much time and keeps your team pushing




Can you imagine no heals or revive in Overwatch
It would be stupid
Tanks covering their health packs
DPS covering their flanking packs


Attackers peeling off from mid-fights to get healed up, wasting opportunity or push and break a Defense
Also Road, Mei, Ana, Soldier, Sombra would reign supreme, so roughly 1/4th of the roster will be instapicked due to semi-self-healing abilities
While the rest are almost a burden
 
I don't think there is much of an argument to make here - especially about Overwatch. Every healer in the game has some strength aside from simply healing.

Lucio - Speed boost to get people back to the point, disengage from fights, and increase evasiveness in general.

Zenyatta - Barely a healer, provides single-target debuffs that allow hyper-aggressive team comps to work while also putting out damage.

Both of the reasons I would choose these characters have very little to do with healing. Healing is more of a side-effect. Consider the other two, more healing-oriented supports Ana and Mercy. Although they both focus on healing, Mercy's damage boost and movement abilities allow her to combo with DPS that have strong movement abilities - namely Pharah and once upon a time Genji. Mercy is as close to a traditional healer as you can possibly get and the best case for OP's "argument", but still only one character.

Ana, on the other hand, is both a healer and ranged DPS - she puts out 80 damage per shot - with a grenade that fills a similar role (with utility to counter healing). Not to mention her sleep dart which allows her to be even more offensive or stop enemy ults.

None of these roles - barring Mercy - really seem like they are just "refilling bars".
 

Brannon

Member
The role creeped up on me, I admit. FFXIV was my first MMO that I seriously played and the first class I picked was in healing, since I just wanted a character that could heal up instantly while I was putzing around the world doing all the solo content. Camera is zoomed close up because that's how you play a third person game, don't be silly.

Then I unlocked the four-man missions and mini-quests but was still playing like a solo character but giving out some buffs and healing a couple of times. Camera somehow get zoomed out a bit.

Then those mini-quests got more complex and involved and the enemies hit harder and I started healing others more and the camera is getting zoomed out a bit more so I can keep track and then shit jumped up to eight-man parties and now I think I can just relax and do my thing but somehow I subconsciously pick three people and heal and buff them while throwing out some damage of my own and then THAT gets more complicated and then by the time I realize what the hell I truly got myself into I'm at Garuda and THE WIND IS PUSHING ME and we're all getting feather-fucked and the camera is all the way out because I have to see ALL OF IT and holy shit I have to keep all these people alive in this chaos.

Then I had to stop because my internet kept shitting out on Titan, but yeah.

Healing's awesome.
 

enoki

Member
Kito said:
Pre-mod title edit: Healers are bad game design (I have reported the moderator.)

I'm sorry for repeating my last question, but what makes healing easy for you? I think some elaboration on that point would let people understand your point of view better.

Those of us who really love the thrill of supporting in a challenging skirmish are thrown off when you say it's noob-friendly. Is Overwatch the only game you've played a healing class in, for instance? I don't mean any of this to insult you, but this thread is de-railing and I think a more comprehensive post would help your case.
 

Akuun

Looking for meaning in GAF
Zenyatta technically has that in the form of a discord orb, Mercy doesn't really interest me gameplay wise since she can't heal and do damage at the same time
While Ana and Zen are definitely better at mixing healing with fighting, Mercy has the hidden benefit of automatically reloading her gun whenever she has her staff out for a little while. So you could empty the gun, swap to heal/boost for a bit, then go back to a full gun for more shooting. It's all moot if you can damage boost someone who can shoot well of course, but playing a Mercy who swaps a lot between staff and gun is surprisingly fun to play. She fights like a baby DVa that can fly.
 

Two Words

Member
Overwatch's healers are too important, I would agree with that. They all could stand to have their healing rate decreased. A healer shouldn't be able to turn a non-tank character into a tank.
 

ElyrionX

Member
Hanzo mains are the absolute fucking worst. Already have an idiot on your team who picked Widow on attack? No fucking worries because here comes Hanzo!
 
While Ana and Zen are definitely better at mixing healing with fighting, Mercy has the hidden benefit of automatically reloading her gun whenever she has her staff out for a little while. So you could empty the gun, swap to heal/boost for a bit, then go back to a full gun for more shooting. It's all moot if you can damage boost someone who can shoot well of course, but playing a Mercy who swaps a lot between staff and gun is surprisingly fun to play. She fights like a baby DVa that can fly.

Eh... it's still one or the other, never both.
 
After several hundred hours in OW I would say Mercy is one of the weakest parts of the game IMO. Tiny hit box, insane mobility with that 1 sec cooldown dash that lets you quickly fly to any teammate, ridiculously fast health regen, and a revive with no casting time. It's just not fun to play against. Cool, I just pulled off an awesome 3+ kill on the point aaaaaand there was a Mercy crouched around the corner aaaand now the enemies are all back. Poor design, IMO. And they keep buffing her, because Mercy mains still find stuff to whine about.
 

Plywood

NeoGAF's smiling token!
The role creeped up on me, I admit. FFXIV was my first MMO that I seriously played and the first class I picked was in healing, since I just wanted a character that could heal up instantly while I was putzing around the world doing all the solo content. Camera is zoomed close up because that's how you play a third person game, don't be silly.

Then I unlocked the four-man missions and mini-quests but was still playing like a solo character but giving out some buffs and healing a couple of times. Camera somehow get zoomed out a bit.

Then those mini-quests got more complex and involved and the enemies hit harder and I started healing others more and the camera is getting zoomed out a bit more so I can keep track and then shit jumped up to eight-man parties and now I think I can just relax and do my thing but somehow I subconsciously pick three people and heal and buff them while throwing out some damage of my own and then THAT gets more complicated and then by the time I realize what the hell I truly got myself into I'm at Garuda and THE WIND IS PUSHING ME and we're all getting feather-fucked and the camera is all the way out because I have to see ALL OF IT and holy shit I have to keep all these people alive in this chaos.

Then I had to stop because my internet kept shitting out on Titan, but yeah.

Healing's awesome.
This man gets it.
 

MartyStu

Member
After several hundred hours in OW I would say Mercy is one of the weakest parts of the game IMO. Tiny hit box, insane mobility with that 1 sec cooldown dash that lets you quickly fly to any teammate, ridiculously fast health regen, and a revive with no casting time. It's just not fun to play against. Cool, I just pulled off an awesome 3+ kill on the point aaaaaand there was a Mercy crouched around the corner aaaand now the enemies are all back. Poor design, IMO. And they keep buffing her, because Mercy mains still find stuff to whine about.

Mercy is a worse hero than the other healers.

Also, as with Roadhog and a good Widow, you should ALWAYS be asking yourself: where is the enemy Mercy?
 

HK-47

Oh, bitch bitch bitch.
After several hundred hours in OW I would say Mercy is one of the weakest parts of the game IMO. Tiny hit box, insane mobility with that 1 sec cooldown dash that lets you quickly fly to any teammate, ridiculously fast health regen, and a revive with no casting time. It's just not fun to play against. Cool, I just pulled off an awesome 3+ kill on the point aaaaaand there was a Mercy crouched around the corner aaaand now the enemies are all back. Poor design, IMO. And they keep buffing her, because Mercy mains still find stuff to whine about.

Mercy is a pile of shit right now, what are you talking about.
 
It's your fault for making a clickbait headline OP, rather than making one to welcome discussion.

I mean really, 'Healers are bad game design'?
 

Violet_0

Banned
btw, which mod did you report him to?

just asking because it's commonly accepted that only Cyan is cold-blooded enough to end duckroll's everlasting rule of terror
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
A shadow war is being fought through thread titles and joke polls.
 

Luminaire

Member
Holy crap I haven't seen a thread backfire this hard in a while.

Career healer here.
You're wrong.
Maybe you'll realize that one day.
 

Wagram

Member
I find games without healers to be incredibly annoying to be honest. There's no need to break the triangle to be different. It works. It's fine.

I healed 8 years in Final Fantasy XI and while it's more of a curse than anything. I still loved it.
 

Laiza

Member
This thread just makes me all the more glad that devs are generally moving away from the kind of crazy old-fashioned class interdependency seen in tab-targeting MMOs in newer games.

It also makes me wonder how so many folks are apparently still able to get into tab-targeting MMORPGs. After playing more modern games, the incredibly abstract combat is just a huge turn-off for me. I can no longer buy the idea of a virtual world where combat consists of hitting a bunch of hotkeys in sequence every time, all the time. Tanks make no logical sense, healers are generally overpowered (especially in PvP, seriously, fuck that noise), blah-blah-blah I've said it all before...

It really feels like a blast from the past. No accounting for tastes and all that, but man, I can never go back now. I'm just not interested in that style of gameplay anymore.
 
Nothing pisses me off more in Overwatch when a goddamn Hanzo main looks down on a healer or tells them what to do. More often than not in the general games I've played, it's usually the fucking useless Hanzo not getting picks or contributing that causes us to lose. I've seen some dominant Widowmakers but the useful Hanzo is extremely rare. Anytime a Hanzo player tells me what to do as a support character, I tell them to shut the fuck up abe mute them.

I've NEVER seen anyone switch to a Hanzo to turn the tide of a battle, but I have seen someone go support (specifically a healer) to win the game.

Zeke told me you mained Torbjorn though? Pretty sure I played Hanzo with you a bit early on during the launch days as well, and we won more often than not. Then again maybe you muted me back then too. You always didn't like the sound of my voice on the TF2 Jank.

Anyway the OP is correct in my opinion overall, but the glib general nature of the title set a lot of people off since folks have brought up healer archetypes from every kind of game under the sun. The OP specifically mentioned making the move to Splatoon which is an arcadey class based shooter. For those type of games, I agree wholeheartedly that hard support healer classes are game design in bad faith.

The distinction of a hard support as supposed to a general healer is important. There's a reason why a lot of these healer examples being posted aren't full on healers for their respective games. The much beloved Warhammer Online healer built up healing juice by clobbering people with a big ass hammer. Ana from Overwatch is a character that uses a variety of skill shots to support her team both in healing and being aggressive. She shares the same gameplay loop as a conventional damage dealer--clicking on people. This is also true for many other games. The medic class in the battlefield series is a dude with a gun plus a medpack. This is not a Hacksaw Ridge archetype. Lots of people love playing that class because it has a high amount of self sustain since you can drink your own jar of healing pee as well as share it with others. Someone even posted the Team Fortress Classic medic. This was a class that used conc grenades to fly around the map. A very hard thing to execute and overall made it a high skill floor/ceiling character who used advanced movement...and none of it had to do with healing.

The kinds of healers that many people dread to play more resemble the Team Fortress 2 medic. A far cry from his ancestor, this medic has a health hose meant to attach to the butt of a damage dealer. He has limited ability to defend himself and his whole toolkit is designed to enable his team at his own expense. Mercy and Lucio are the Overwatch equivalents to this kind of healer. Mercy being the one most "inspired" by the TF2 medic (Lucio is sorta like a watered down version of a couple of different buff banners). These characters provide a large amount of unique utility in exchange for damage. On paper this makes sense balance wise; but in practice in an action game, it means that person can't leverage their individual skill in controlling the outcome of a game. This is why I feel like it's bad faith game design. Theses kind of healers are made in mind for "weaker players" so that they can contribute in SOME way while the big boys do all the work.

This extreme stratification between high level utility and combat impact creates a negative feedback loop in the game's culture. Or to put it simply, Healers develop a martyrdom complex and feel embittered towards those playing dps while they are playing the "responsible class." Meanwhile, people playing the high skill cap characters feel like hard supports are made up of the sad girlfriends of their neckbearded beau pockets because they aren't good enough to do anything better. Both sides are filled with misconceptions here.

The title change to this thread is proof positive of that. For those who aren't familar with Overwatch. Hanzo is a high damage mid range marksman built around a finicky projectile weapon. It's something that takes a lot of time and practice to do well, and is probably one of the hardest characters in the game if not the hardest character in the game mechanically when it comes to aiming and shooting because of it. Because the character is hard to play, you will see some support players freak out because they think it limits their potential to be carried by this character. But the problem isn't with the character, itself. Hard to play characters like Hanzo are healthy for the game. The problem is, is this need to be carried that exists because you have characters that are so limited to what they can do on their own. This is the crux of the issue and why healers, specifically the hard support hose medics, are bad design.
 

Kuro Madoushi

Unconfirmed Member
Zeke told me you mained Torbjorn though? Pretty sure I played Hanzo with you a bit early on during the launch days as well, and we won more often than not. Then again maybe you muted me back then too. You always didn't like the sound of my voice on the TF2 Jank.

Anyway the OP is correct in my opinion overall, but the glib general nature of the title set a lot of people off since folks have brought up healer archetypes from every kind of game under the sun. The OP specifically mentioned making the move to Splatoon which is an arcadey class based shooter. For those type of games, I agree wholeheartedly that hard support healer classes are game design in bad faith.

The distinction of a hard support as supposed to a general healer is important. There's a reason why a lot of these healer examples being posted aren't full on healers for their respective games. The much beloved Warhammer Online healer built up healing juice by clobbering people with a big ass hammer. Ana from Overwatch is a character that uses a variety of skill shots to support her team both in healing and being aggressive. She shares the same gameplay loop as a conventional damage dealer--clicking on people. This is also true for many other games. The medic class in the battlefield series is a dude with a gun plus a medpack. This is not a Hacksaw Ridge archetype. Lots of people love playing that class because it has a high amount of self sustain since you can drink your own jar of healing pee as well as share it with others. Someone even posted the Team Fortress Classic medic. This was a class that used conc grenades to fly around the map. A very hard thing to execute and overall made it a high skill floor/ceiling character who used advanced movement...and none of it had to do with healing.

The kinds of healers that many people dread to play more resemble the Team Fortress 2 medic. A far cry from his ancestor, this medic has a health hose meant to attach to the butt of a damage dealer. He has limited ability to defend himself and his whole toolkit is designed to enable his team at his own expense. Mercy and Lucio are the Overwatch equivalents to this kind of healer. Mercy being the one most "inspired" by the TF2 medic (Lucio is sorta like a watered down version of a couple of different buff banners). These characters provide a large amount of unique utility in exchange for damage. On paper this makes sense balance wise; but in practice in an action game, it means that person can't leverage their individual skill in controlling the outcome of a game. This is why I feel like it's bad faith game design. Theses kind of healers are made in mind for "weaker players" so that they can contribute in SOME way while the big boys do all the work.

This extreme stratification between high level utility and combat impact creates a negative feedback loop in the game's culture. Or to put it simply, Healers develop a martyrdom complex and feel embittered towards those playing dps while they are playing the "responsible class." Meanwhile, people playing the high skill cap characters feel like hard supports are made up of the sad girlfriends of their neckbearded beau pockets because they aren't good enough to do anything better. Both sides are filled with misconceptions here.

The title change to this thread is proof positive of that. For those who aren't familar with Overwatch. Hanzo is a high damage mid range marksman built around a finicky projectile weapon. It's something that takes a lot of time and practice to do well, and is probably one of the hardest characters in the game if not the hardest character in the game mechanically when it comes to aiming and shooting because of it. Because the character is hard to play, you will see some support players freak out because they think it limits their potential to be carried by this character. But the problem isn't with the character, itself. Hard to play characters like Hanzo are healthy for the game. The problem is, is this need to be carried that exists because you have characters that are so limited to what they can do on their own. This is the crux of the issue and why healers, specifically the hard support hose medics, are bad design.
Your first problem was listening to Zeke. I don't main Torb, I main Lucio/Zen. We've only played once, I didn't mute though I may not have been on the channel, and I'm sure you were Soldier 76 or another class.

You're right in that Hanzo is a high skill player. That's part of the problem: the majority of the players I've seen use him have been utter garbage and simply aren't good enough. You either get a pick or you're useless. Then, useless as they are, they won't switch off him. Other characters, even without the pick, can do a lot more with a lot less skill required. In a game with limited players on your team, if you're a terrible Hanzo, and odds fucking are that the Hanzo player on your team is bad, you're effectively outnumbered.
 

ghibli99

Member
After several hundred hours in OW I would say Mercy is one of the weakest parts of the game IMO. Tiny hit box, insane mobility with that 1 sec cooldown dash that lets you quickly fly to any teammate, ridiculously fast health regen, and a revive with no casting time. It's just not fun to play against. Cool, I just pulled off an awesome 3+ kill on the point aaaaaand there was a Mercy crouched around the corner aaaand now the enemies are all back. Poor design, IMO. And they keep buffing her, because Mercy mains still find stuff to whine about.
Why isn't anyone on your team focused on taking the healer(s) out?
 
Zeke told me you mained Torbjorn though? Pretty sure I played Hanzo with you a bit early on during the launch days as well, and we won more often than not. Then again maybe you muted me back then too. You always didn't like the sound of my voice on the TF2 Jank.

Anyway the OP is correct in my opinion overall, but the glib general nature of the title set a lot of people off since folks have brought up healer archetypes from every kind of game under the sun. The OP specifically mentioned making the move to Splatoon which is an arcadey class based shooter. For those type of games, I agree wholeheartedly that hard support healer classes are game design in bad faith.

The distinction of a hard support as supposed to a general healer is important. There's a reason why a lot of these healer examples being posted aren't full on healers for their respective games. The much beloved Warhammer Online healer built up healing juice by clobbering people with a big ass hammer. Ana from Overwatch is a character that uses a variety of skill shots to support her team both in healing and being aggressive. She shares the same gameplay loop as a conventional damage dealer--clicking on people. This is also true for many other games. The medic class in the battlefield series is a dude with a gun plus a medpack. This is not a Hacksaw Ridge archetype. Lots of people love playing that class because it has a high amount of self sustain since you can drink your own jar of healing pee as well as share it with others. Someone even posted the Team Fortress Classic medic. This was a class that used conc grenades to fly around the map. A very hard thing to execute and overall made it a high skill floor/ceiling character who used advanced movement...and none of it had to do with healing.

The kinds of healers that many people dread to play more resemble the Team Fortress 2 medic. A far cry from his ancestor, this medic has a health hose meant to attach to the butt of a damage dealer. He has limited ability to defend himself and his whole toolkit is designed to enable his team at his own expense. Mercy and Lucio are the Overwatch equivalents to this kind of healer. Mercy being the one most "inspired" by the TF2 medic (Lucio is sorta like a watered down version of a couple of different buff banners). These characters provide a large amount of unique utility in exchange for damage. On paper this makes sense balance wise; but in practice in an action game, it means that person can't leverage their individual skill in controlling the outcome of a game. This is why I feel like it's bad faith game design. Theses kind of healers are made in mind for "weaker players" so that they can contribute in SOME way while the big boys do all the work.

This extreme stratification between high level utility and combat impact creates a negative feedback loop in the game's culture. Or to put it simply, Healers develop a martyrdom complex and feel embittered towards those playing dps while they are playing the "responsible class." Meanwhile, people playing the high skill cap characters feel like hard supports are made up of the sad girlfriends of their neckbearded beau pockets because they aren't good enough to do anything better. Both sides are filled with misconceptions here.

The title change to this thread is proof positive of that. For those who aren't familar with Overwatch. Hanzo is a high damage mid range marksman built around a finicky projectile weapon. It's something that takes a lot of time and practice to do well, and is probably one of the hardest characters in the game if not the hardest character in the game mechanically when it comes to aiming and shooting because of it. Because the character is hard to play, you will see some support players freak out because they think it limits their potential to be carried by this character. But the problem isn't with the character, itself. Hard to play characters like Hanzo are healthy for the game. The problem is, is this need to be carried that exists because you have characters that are so limited to what they can do on their own. This is the crux of the issue and why healers, specifically the hard support hose medics, are bad design.
Hanzo is almost always a bad pick. What good is his damage output when there's heroes that do that job better, with a lower skill ceiling? (Soldier) If there's a Reinhardt, which there always is in high level play, then Hanzo is useless. His ultimate is easily dodged if not combo'd with Zarya. (No, picking around the sniper isn't smart) Not to mention that sniper players never get on the objective, making it harder to push.

You have it backwards, healers are carrying trash DPS players. Ana and Zen have infinitely more utility than Hanzo. Matter of fact, even Mercy serves more of a purpose. Not to sound rude, but it's really frustrating to play with people who fundamentally don't understand that the point of Overwatch is to take the objective. Staying alive longer is one of the best ways to do that.
 

Kuro Madoushi

Unconfirmed Member
Wait...OP mains Mercy?! Lol you poor sumbitch.
Well, I'd rather have a bad Mercy that heals than a bad Hanzo that can't do much else.

I honestly just need a break from OW myself.
 

Pandy

Member
The role creeped up on me, I admit. FFXIV was my first MMO that I seriously played and the first class I picked was in healing, since I just wanted a character that could heal up instantly while I was putzing around the world doing all the solo content. Camera is zoomed close up because that's how you play a third person game, don't be silly.

Then I unlocked the four-man missions and mini-quests but was still playing like a solo character but giving out some buffs and healing a couple of times. Camera somehow get zoomed out a bit.

Then those mini-quests got more complex and involved and the enemies hit harder and I started healing others more and the camera is getting zoomed out a bit more so I can keep track and then shit jumped up to eight-man parties and now I think I can just relax and do my thing but somehow I subconsciously pick three people and heal and buff them while throwing out some damage of my own and then THAT gets more complicated and then by the time I realize what the hell I truly got myself into I'm at Garuda and THE WIND IS PUSHING ME and we're all getting feather-fucked and the camera is all the way out because I have to see ALL OF IT and holy shit I have to keep all these people alive in this chaos.

Then I had to stop because my internet kept shitting out on Titan, but yeah.

Healing's awesome.

Haven't played FFXIV, but I can relate. Nice post.
 
Lucio is the worst healer, he's just picked so much because speed boost is invaluable.
They mean healer as in healing character, not who is best or worst at healing. Lucio is the best healing character in the game, because he is versatile. Mercy is less versatile, but she's still useful. Just less useful than the other healing characters, generally.
 

DR2K

Banned
Meh, Overwatch's healers have some sort of interesting gameplay to them, Zenyatta's Discord, Lucio's Speed, Ana's utility, and Mercy's...................................................... she's boring

Mercy has a great gun, can revive the entire team, can power power up allies, and dash and float around the arena. High level Mercy is a completely different game.
 
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