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[Zen Aku]

you have a point. the facial animations were one of the lowpoints of Mass Effect 2 I remember when I was playing that, but, the rest of the game was SO good that even that was not a detriment to my overall experience.

Mass Effect 2 is one of my favorite games of all time. I did notice some pretty bad facial animation but like you it didn't turn me off the game quite as much because the story and characters were so good.

So I hope Andromeda will be the same. Cause those faces are look pretty rough, so unless the other parts of the game pick up that slack (gameplay, dialogue, story, characters). It's really going to be apparent to me.

 

[Wishmaster92]

I made a quick change to CarbonFire's version just to see what it would look like with less red in the eyes.

Reveal

Latest

CarbonFire's superimposition

Drugs-B-Gone

Skin texture is much nicer in the final version, but those dead eyes man....

Thank you! I will add to the op, now the comparison is perfect.

 

[jim2point0]

Screencaps of the female presets if anyone is interested:

If you told me you just hit the "randomly generate" button 8 times and these faces were the results, I'd believe you.

 

[cripterion]

Using Battlefront as a point of comparison is arguably worse than the other games quoted.

DICE digitally scanned in ships, weapons and actors. And they also happen to be one of those developers well known for pushing visual boundaries.

ME:A looks better than any Bioware game before it.

Spoiler

inb4 cherry-picked DA:I / ME3 screenshot.

But see, I've heard that before, you and many people seem to be saying that because it was mediocre before in certain aspects, it's no surprise it is the same here, like a tradition or something. Can't we strive for something better, especially as we are on another gen and the tech gets better and better?
A big studio like bioware with EA backing cannot do face scans? FIFA does it for hundreds of player and the results looks good, on the same very engine Andromeda runs.

Guerrila studios weren't know for their great action rpg games ( hell i don't even like their fps) so how could they have knocked it out of the park with Horizon?

It's like we should give a pass because we are fan of the series but it doesn't work like that imo. And what about the people who come fresh into the game? My wife looking at the footage when they're talking literally said they look like robots. As someone else said, considering you spend huge amounts of time talking to various npc's that should be something they ought to nail in order to get yourself immersed.

The eye work done by the gaffer up above is something that would definitely alleviate some of the robotic look. Shinobi also said they fixed the duck speaking lips so it's not like it's all negative.

 

[mxgt]

Screencaps of the female presets if anyone is interested:

Bioware pls, these are fucking awful.

I'm glad that semi-decent faces can be made though - is there a face import code like in previous games?

 

[i-Lo]

Bioware pls, these are fucking awful.

I'm glad that semi-decent faces can be made though - is there a face import code like in previous games?

Well, presumably they'd look a lot better with better hair shaders and less dead eyes. The last one is proof of that (save the eyes). Lighting in this specific setting is contributing to the weirdness. I'll definitely have to go with custom options w/o any significant hair.

Anyone know whether you can put scars and other imperfections during customization?

 

[Trickster]

Bioware pls, these are fucking awful.

I'm glad that semi-decent faces can be made though - is there a face import code like in previous games?

There's an image on last page somewhere that implies you can import, yes. Hopefully all the characters that will be created by people with EA Access will be importable come release. I'm just fine with letting someone else spend hours creating characters that's don't look horrible, and then letting me import them in 10 seconds.

 

[RDreamer]

Guerrila studios weren't know for their great action rpg games ( hell i don't even like their fps) so how could they have knocked it out of the park with Horizon?

Horizon has some janky ass facial animation and odd looking, too. Like, really REALLY janky sometimes.

 

[Agent_4Seven]

Screencaps of the female presets if anyone is interested:

GAH! My eyes! Make it stop!

Spoiler

Simply and unbelievably awful. Shame on you BioWare.

But you know what's the worst of it all? DICE does not allow modders to mess around with their engine, so we can't fix this atrocious pile of poop with mods. Uh... I'll take dad Ryder over anything that can be created with the shitty character creator.

 

[Zen Aku]

Horizon has some janky ass facial animation and odd looking, too. Like, really REALLY janky sometimes.

Yes it does. But it's still better than the standards​ at Bioware apparently.

 

[RDreamer]

Yes it does. But it's still better than the standards​ at Bioware apparently.

You've played all of Andromeda? Tell me more about the facial animations when you were about 30 hours in.

(I say this to be fair. The vast majority of the really fucking bad Horizon facial animations are at the beginning of the game)

 

[cripterion]

Horizon has some janky ass facial animation and odd looking, too. Like, really REALLY janky sometimes.

Yes I know.
My point was they are a studio who make run of the mill fps (imo) and they've made a great action open world rpg. They've stepped out of their comfort zone and did really well in something that wasn't expected of them, can't we have that for Bioware and character faces/animations?

 

[Heckler456]

But see, I've heard that before, you and many people seem to be saying that because it was mediocre before in certain aspects, it's no surprise it is the same here, like a tradition or something. Can't we strive for something better, especially as we are on another gen and the tech gets better and better?
A big studio like bioware with EA backing cannot do face scans? FIFA does it for hundreds of player and the results looks good, on the same very engine Andromeda runs.

Guerrila studios weren't know for their great action rpg games ( hell i don't even like their fps) so how could they have knocked it out of the park with Horizon?

It's like we should give a pass because we are fan of the series but it doesn't work like that imo. And what about the people who come fresh into the game? My wife looking at the footage when they're talking literally said they look like robots. As someone else said, considering you spend huge amounts of time talking to various npc's that should be something they ought to nail in order to get yourself immersed.

My sister looked at Horizon and immediately laughed at the facial animations. She was coming from Uncharted 4, so I had to explain to her the difference between an RPG and a more linear experience, and what the difference between the two meant for detailed things like animation.

I'm sure you understand that you can't compare Uncharted 4 to Horizon. Why is it that you and other people completely fail to draw that out further, and apply that to the difference between modeling and animating for Battlefront/ Fifa/ MGSV/ Horizon and Andromeda? It's only a little bit more nuanced.

The only meaningful comparison is between this game and its predecessor. Game development is incredibly complex, and there are many factors that could contribute to having the game be in the state that it is. Effectively, what you're asking is that they should have put more money into the animation systems than in the entire rest of the game.

Yes I know.
My point was they are a studio who make run of the mill fps (imo) and they've made a great action open world rpg. They've stepped out of their comfort zone and did really well in something that wasn't expected of them, can't we have that for Bioware and character faces/animations?

These are two different problems.

Bioware could probably do The Order 1886 level of animations if they really actually wanted to, but it would take a whole lot of resources to get there, and they might have to cut actual meaningful gameplay elements out just to accommodate for the processing to get those animations on screen. Plus, you'd have a far smaller game too, with a smaller cast of characters. Maybe they thought that the vast majority of players would rather spend 60 dollars on a ~70 hour game with a cast of 1200 characters and some huge open world zones than a 20-30 hour long game with the lion share of the budget spent on animating their characters.

 

[RDreamer]

Yes I know.
My point was they are a studio who make run of the mill fps (imo) and they've made a great action open world rpg. They've stepped out of their comfort zone and did really well in something that wasn't expected of them, can't we have that for Bioware and character faces/animations?

They're a studio known for insane graphics, though. They make their own engine. How in any way is that comparable to fucking Bioware. When have they been known for graphics?

 

[Camel Master]

I, for one, welcome these faces. At least its not the usual supermodel look, now we get more diversity in our video game women and thats good.

 

[JeffG]

Screencaps of the female presets if anyone is interested:

So basically. Pick the preset with the Eyebrows/Nose/eyes you want and modify from there.

Thats the annoying thing. They clearly have different types but took out (broke???) the ability to change them via the UI.

 

[Zen Aku]

You've played all of Andromeda? Tell me more about the facial animations when you were about 30 hours in.

(I say this to be fair. The vast majority of the really fucking bad Horizon facial animations are at the beginning of the game)

I don't really have to play all of Andromeda or even 30 hours to get a good impression of what the facial animation is like. It's not we're talking about story or dialogue here.

 

[firelogic]

You've played all of Andromeda? Tell me more about the facial animations when you were about 30 hours in.

(I say this to be fair. The vast majority of the really fucking bad Horizon facial animations are at the beginning of the game)

I don't think it's going to vastly improve 30 hours in. The tech is the tech.

 

[Starfield]

Eeww look at those ugly Frostbite Engine graphics...worse than Gamebryo!!!

 

[The Artisan]

Mass Effect 2 is one of my favorite games of all time. I did notice some pretty bad facial animation but like you it didn't turn me off the game quite as much because the story and characters were so good.

So I hope Andromeda will be the same. Cause those faces are look pretty rough, so unless the other parts of the game pick up that slack (gameplay, dialogue, story, characters). It's really going to be apparent to me.

yah I think this will be the case for 90% of the people having doubts just because of the faces.

 

[Basketball]

I made a quick change to CarbonFire's version just to see what it would look like with less red in the eyes.

Reveal

Latest

CarbonFire's superimposition

Drugs-B-Gone

Skin texture is much nicer in the final version, but those dead eyes man....

 

[RDreamer]

I don't really have to play all of Andromeda or even 30 hours to get a good impression of what the facial animation is like. It's not we're talking about story or dialogue here.

So then no one can use Horizon as an example. Facial animations were wonky as shit in the previews and they were janky as hell in the actual game.

I don't think it's going to vastly improve 30 hours in. The tech is the tech.

So why did Horizon's get better?

There were some animations in Horizon that we could all have a chuckle at, too. Worse than some of the stuff posted. And it's a game with way LESS dialogue than Mass Effect to tune.

 

[Insane Metal]

I mean that's because UE4 is a powerhouse and is insanely flexible with different game types.


It's a completely different one actually.


Yea I just watched the romance video and surprisingly they're reusing a shit ton of animations from the original trilogy:


that's pretty surprising to see actually.

Her hand there... something is not... right

 

[Aroll]

Feels weird calling it a "downgrade" - like the visuals got "worse". They actually appear to be much better, with highly improved textures. You just don't like certain changes they made, but they aren't graphical downgrades, but more design oriented stuff. Any of the other very minor "downgrades" are the fact we're comparing bullshots to real game stuff. Even then, the final product stuff looks MUCH better.

So I don't get the complaints.

 

[Inferno313]

Look at first footage of Horizon and look at the game now and tell me this again please.

It's almost like different games are made by different people using different approaches!

 

[cripterion]

My sister looked at Horizon and immediately laughed at the facial animations. She was coming from Uncharted 4, so I had to explain to her the difference between an RPG and a more linear experience, and what the difference between the two meant for detailed things like animation.

I'm sure you understand that you can't compare Uncharted 4 to Horizon. Why is it that you and other people completely fail to draw that out further, and apply that to the difference between modeling and animating for Battlefront/ Fifa/ MGSV/ Horizon and Andromeda? It's only a little bit more nuanced.

The only meaningful comparison is between this game and its predecessor. Game development is incredibly complex, and there are many factors that could contribute to having the game be in the state that it is. Effectively, what you're asking is that they should have put more money into the animation systems than in the entire rest of the game.

Well yes ok for Fifa & Battlefront, I merely use them as an example since they use the same engine. I think the character creation that is displayed here is on par with Fifa 14 though that was available on 360.
Of course Uncharted 4 is superior to those and you're right that's it's not comparable.

Horizon Zero Dawn, The Witcher 3, are open world rpg games so why can't I compare them to Andromeda? Horizon is sometimes janky in the facial animation department yes but I'll point you to this here and here to see much superior face models.

They're a studio known for insane graphics, though. They make their own engine. How in any way is that comparable to fucking Bioware. When have they been known for graphics?

Once again, if they're known for their graphics and make an excellent game (it's not just me who's saying it mind you) in other departments, can't Bioware do the same? lol

It's almost like different games are made by different people using different approaches!

It's almost like you didn't imply that all games get downgraded in your previous post!

 

[Zen Aku]

So then no one can use Horizon as an example. Facial animations were wonky as shit in the previews and they were janky as hell in the actual game.

Because as jank as some faces in Horizon actually are.

It's still better than what we have seen so far from clips and images. Coupling with the blandness from the faces in Andromeda, it amplify how bad it is.


If Uncharted 4 is here

The Witcher 3 is here

Horizon Zero Dawn is here






Then Andromeda seems to be all the way down here for me.

 

[kromeo]

That blue thing looks like something out of Overwatch..

The only face that really bothered me so far in the series was Miranda, there's something creepy about it

 

[RDreamer]

Because as jank as some faces in Horizon actually are.

It's still better than what we have seen so far from clips and images. Coupling with the blandness from the faces in Andromeda, it amplify how bad it is.


If Uncharted 4 is here

The Witcher 3 is here

Horizon Zero Dawn is here





Then Andromeda seems to be all the way down here for me.

Gee, it's almost like the more dialogue and facial animations you put into your game the harder it is to make them all look good. I haven't played Andromeda, but if it's anything like any other Mass Effect or Dragon Age, it'll have way more dialogue than Horizon. Yes Witcher is a bit of an outlier, but there were still janky times there and they reused A LOT of animations.

 

[OmniOne]

I spit out my coffee. Thx!

Is it an artist issue or engine issue, that seemingly female faces are crazy weird in this game. ME1-3 was worlds better.

 

[Filthy Casual]

I can't believe something like this has happened, I've never witnessed such a thing :O

 

[Zen Aku]

Gee, it's almost like the more dialogue and facial animations you put into your game the harder it is to make them all look good. I haven't played Andromeda, but if it's anything like any other Mass Effect or Dragon Age, it'll have way more dialogue than Horizon. Yes Witcher is a bit of an outlier, but there were still janky times there and they reused A LOT of animations.

Yeah let's me get back to you once I count up how much dialogue are there for all the games I listed.

From what I've seen so far, most the human animation has a 🦆 face going on when speaking. That's pretty bad. As I said, the bland faces from quite a few of the human main cast and NPC coupled with the poor animation makes it stuck out more than normal.

 

[cripterion]

I spit out my coffee. Thx!

Is it an artist issue or engine issue, that seemingly female faces are crazy weird in this game. ME1-3 was worlds better.

Not just females though. The dead eyes stare is present in males too.
Also I don't mind Sara Ryder. She has a goofy look due to the facial animations she was having when they took the screens but she doesn't look like she appears to have been created with the same character creator like the other models we've seen.

Gee, it's almost like the more dialogue and facial animations you put into your game the harder it is to make them all look good. I haven't played Andromeda, but if it's anything like any other Mass Effect or Dragon Age, it'll have way more dialogue than Horizon. Yes Witcher is a bit of an outlier, but there were still janky times there and they reused A LOT of animations.

In my opionion they can and should re-use animations all they like as long as they're good.

 

[Heckler456]

Well yes ok for Fifa & Battlefront, I merely use them as an example since they use the same engine. I think the character creation that is displayed here is on par with Fifa 14 though that was available on 360.
Of course Uncharted 4 is superior to those and you're right that's it's not comparable.

Horizon Zero Dawn, The Witcher 3, are open world rpg games so why can't I compare them to Andromeda? Horizon is sometimes janky in the facial animation department yes but I'll point you to this here and here to see much superior face models.

Well, here's probably why: Let's take The Witcher 3 as an example. And follow along here, for effect.

Mass Effect Andromeda is obviously a bigger game than Mass Effect 3, right? Mass Effect 3 is stated as being about 40 hours on HLTB, against the purported DA:I length of Mass Effect Andromeda, so that's a pretty significant difference. The Witcher 3 is about the same length as Andromeda I'd guess.

The Witcher 3 had a script size of 450.000 words.

Mass Effect 3 had a script size of 430.000 words.

Now can you imagine how many more lines they had to animate for Andromeda than they did for The Witcher 3? I'm sure it won't have increased linearly, but given that the cast size has doubled when compared to Mass Effect 3, I'm sure it'll be significantly bigger. My guess would be around Dragon Age Origins size, which has a script size of 740.000 words.

And that's only one of the factors that can impact why things are the way that they are. Even elementary things like how animations are implemented, or can be implemented given the requirements have huge repercussions.

 

[arts&crafts]

Why did they randomly change the color of the girl in Picture 1?

 

[JJH]

All I see.

 

[butman]

Is Mass Effect no longer an AAA game?

 

[tuxfool]

Well, here's probably why: Let's take The Witcher 3 as an example. And follow along here, for effect.

Mass Effect Andromeda is obviously a bigger game than Mass Effect 3, right? Mass Effect 3 is stated as being about 40 hours on HLTB, against the purported DA:I length of Mass Effect Andromeda, so that's a pretty significant difference. The Witcher 3 is about the same length as Andromeda I'd guess.

The Witcher 3 had a script size of 450.000 words.

Mass Effect 3 had a script size of 430.000 words.

Now can you imagine how many more lines they had to animate for Andromeda than they did for The Witcher 3? I'm sure it won't have increased linearly, but given that the cast size has doubled when compared to Mass Effect 3, I'm sure it'll be significantly bigger.

And that's only one of the factors that can impact why things are the way that they are. Even elementary things like how animations are implemented, or can be implemented given the requirements have huge repercussions.

That's a bit of a fallacious argument. You don't know if Andromeda actually has a longer script than ME3. It is an open world game, thus its running length is liable to be more padded out. You also don't know what percentage of the dialogue is part of conversations which are specifically animated. I also doubt dialogue that is happening during combat is given that much attention.

 

[martino]

Guerrila studios weren't know for their great action rpg games ( hell i don't even like their fps) so how could they have knocked it out of the park with Horizon?

If you like to them be also good at the rpg part of it, they still don't and odds Mass effect don't it better on this part is near null.
Also, if character model is better in Horizon, animation is not above by much (to not say it's as mediocre,15h in)...

In the end the two are uncanny as hell to me. witcher 3 and even dragon age inquisition didn't didn't gave me this uneasy feeling during dialogs cutscenes.

 

[RDreamer]

In my opionion they can and should re-use animations all they like as long as they're good.

I'm not saying they shouldn't, though usually I don't notice it. i noticed it a TON in Witcher 3. I'm not shitting on Witcher 3 either because it's one of my all time favorite games. Top like two or three.

Comparing it to Witcher is at least a bit more fair than comparing it to Horizon or Uncharted, though.

 

[Heckler456]

That's a bit of a fallacious argument. You don't know if Andromeda actually has a longer script than ME3. It is an open world game, thus its running length is liable to be more padded out.

When we're talking going from 600 voiced characters to 1200 voiced characters, I feel kind of alright in making the assumption that the script size will be bigger than Mass Effect 3's.

 

[Ivory Samoan]

Horizon has some janky ass facial animation and odd looking, too. Like, really REALLY janky sometimes.

I agree, as much as I love Aloy and the merry band of post-post apocalyptic adventurers in Horizon, there is some serious jank going on sometimes (well, a lot: everyone outside of Aloy pretty much).

Spoiler

Nil and the King

were OK, the rest.....not so much: Horizon is far from good in the sync/jank department (still love it though).

 

[Zen Aku]

Is Mass Effect no longer an AAA game?

It's more like an AAA- series to me nowadays.

 

[tuxfool]

When we're talking going from 600 voiced characters to 1200 voiced characters, I feel kind of alright in making the assumption that the script size will be bigger than Mass Effect 3's.

I very much suspect it will end up in roughly the same ballpark. Nothing orders of magnitude larger, such that it justifies the trash animation. I mean, we're witnessing crappy animation not in bumbling NPC #123 in the middle of nowhere, but in main story cutscenes that everyone sees.

 

[cripterion]

If you like to them be also good at the rpg part of it, they still don't and odds Mass effect don't it better on this part is near null.
Also, if character model is better in Horizon, animation is not above by much (to not say it's as mediocre)...

In the end the two are uncanny as hell to me. witcher 3 and even dragon age inquisition didn't didn't gave me this uneasy feeling during dialogs cutscenes.

Ok, I'm not saying the facial animation is stellar in Horizon (though I think the robots animate nicely) but something like this

Maybe it's the different camera work but I don't see the dead of a robot, it feels decent to me. And yes to reply to Heckler 456 since they game is much bigger, with a bigger cast I don't expect the same variety of unique faces or even V.A for that matter.

 

[Heckler456]

I very much suspect it will end up in roughly the same ballpark. Nothing orders of magnitude larger, such that it justifies the trash animation.

"The lines of dialogue we have in Andromeda is like Mass Effect 2 and 3 combined," said Gamble. "So the number of characters is vaster, but the amount of stuff you and that character can talk about is also larger—especially the squad, we definitely focused in on the squad. We made sure the squad was beefy, and developed, and that you could do different things with them and then that information would basically carry through the conversations. That was a large focus. Yeah, in terms of the amount of writing, that was increased, and the number of characters was also increased."

http://www.pcgamer.com/mass-effect-andromeda-has-over-1200-speaking-characters/

 

[George Oscar Bluth II]

Maybe DICE can lend a hand for the next time around.

 

[tuxfool]

http://www.pcgamer.com/mass-effect-andromeda-has-over-1200-speaking-characters/

As I noted we don't know what percentage of that is specifically animated for cutscenes and conversation trees that focus in on the faces. There is a great deal of in-world conversation that happens in bioware games, which they do not animate with care, nor would they need to, on account of the player being focused on other things.

However, I don't think it is much to ask for them to take more care in the parts where they focus in on the heads.

 

[cripterion]

Maybe DICE can lend a hand for the next time around.

Well that would be great. Share the tech I say.

 

[Kneecap]

This thread is so fucking dumb, like Witcher 3 graphical 'downgrade' levels of dumb.

Any actual Mass Effect fans in here? Or is everyone just jumping on the shit-flinging bandwagon?

Yeah, imma fan, but if i have to look at these characters for 2400 hours (my ME3 playtime) i want them to look appealing or at least interesting. Yeesh.