Astral Dog
Member
No,no hyperbole its very good 💙
town wise alone makes a huge difference over TP im like 😢
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Twilight Princess is definitively better than Wind Waker
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town wise alone makes a huge difference over TP im like 😢
Common Knowledge
Member
The best Zelda games strike a good balance between overworld and dungeons. There are some exceptions in which they focus on different aspects than typical (MM, for instance), but the key aspect of the franchise I would argue is discovery: be that figuring out a puzzle, discovering a secret, finding a new location, figuring out how to defeat a tough enemy, you get the idea.
Recent 3D Zelda games have been too afraid to let the player figure out anything for themselves or branch out from one locked-in path, and that's what I feel BoTW has done well to eliminate and go back to player choice.
Generally, I feel people who argue that Zelda is about just one particular element, or should focus solely on one particular element (i.e. puzzle-solving or something else) are woefully missing the forest for the trees about what makes the best Zelda games so special.
The old school 2D Zeldas have the best balance between overworld and dungeon, and I really don't see how one could get the impression that dungeons were always the main focus based off of those games. Heck, I'd argue that the original Zelda is more focused on the overworld than any other one.
Recent 3D Zelda games have been too afraid to let the player figure out anything for themselves or branch out from one locked-in path, and that's what I feel BoTW has done well to eliminate and go back to player choice.
Generally, I feel people who argue that Zelda is about just one particular element, or should focus solely on one particular element (i.e. puzzle-solving or something else) are woefully missing the forest for the trees about what makes the best Zelda games so special.
The old school 2D Zeldas have the best balance between overworld and dungeon, and I really don't see how one could get the impression that dungeons were always the main focus based off of those games. Heck, I'd argue that the original Zelda is more focused on the overworld than any other one.
RayearthRob
Member
The only zelda game I can't replay is wind waker. I reaally hate this game. The only thing that I like in WW is the artstyle.
Professor Beef
Banned
It's open world though, so I already threw it in the bushes.
I feel towns in that game are heldback by technical limitations and/or intentional desing and setting. I remember in interviews, they said Castle Town was filled with rushing citizens that ain't got no time for a talk, so that was intentional. Though there is a merchant Goron that notices the Castle is trapped. I thought NPC's in TP were ugly-cute? But yeah I understand if not everyone felt compelled to like them.
ilikesleepingmore
Neo Member
Did you people play TP or did you just skim through it? TP is way better than WW and SS. WW and SS may have a bit more charm and better music, but TP destroys both in every other category.
manueldelalas
Time Traveler
Of course it was memorable. The Scavonian Dissonance between the prerendered video showing Ganondorf beating the shit out of Link, and then in gameplay pressing three times the win button to destroy Ganondorf was unbelievable.
TPs final boss was shoved into the game, but at least it felt epic and was a fitting end to the game.
Having replayed most of the Zeldas last year in preparation for BotW so both of these games are super fresh in my mind. I played both at their original launches as well. My top 3 Zeldas before replaying them all last year:
1. A Link to the Past
2. Ocarina of Time
3. Links Awakening
After replaying them all:
1. Twilight Princess
2. Majoras Mask
3. A Link to the Past
Why did TP shoot up my power rankings? The game has such fun, clever, and lengthy dungeons - something most Zelda games seem to not be able to achieve (as in having dungeons be all 3 of those things at once). The game, especially the HD version was incredibly smooth to play and control. Everything felt tight and juuust right. And while Wind Waker has a great soundtrack, so does TP with its somber and melancholy tones. I also loved how OoT/MM's Link is in the game in the form of the Shade. That makes me immediately more invested in the story compared to a quick 30 second introduction talking about an old legend of the Hero of Time.
1. A Link to the Past
2. Ocarina of Time
3. Links Awakening
After replaying them all:
1. Twilight Princess
2. Majoras Mask
3. A Link to the Past
Why did TP shoot up my power rankings? The game has such fun, clever, and lengthy dungeons - something most Zelda games seem to not be able to achieve (as in having dungeons be all 3 of those things at once). The game, especially the HD version was incredibly smooth to play and control. Everything felt tight and juuust right. And while Wind Waker has a great soundtrack, so does TP with its somber and melancholy tones. I also loved how OoT/MM's Link is in the game in the form of the Shade. That makes me immediately more invested in the story compared to a quick 30 second introduction talking about an old legend of the Hero of Time.
Rabbit Clock
Banned
Twilight Princess is a snooze fest. Wind Waker even with its sailing (I like sailing) always stays exciting.
Every other category ?
Even story ? Even characters ? Even artstyle ? Even difficulty-wise ? Even in exploration ?
And not even talking about dungeon since i prefered those from Wind Waker, i don't know why everyone say TP as good dungon when a lot of puzzle seems to come from a previous ZElda, the layout don't really give the player choice ( a problem with WW and SS too of course, but a lot less in the N64 games), i remember being particulary shocked by finding a key in the same room of the locked door in the FOURTH dungeon... Yeah, the location of that dungeon was nice (desert prison, all that) but that's really all for me. It has more dungeon than Wind Waker but at the same time a lot of dungeon were really bad (the first one, the temple of time, the sky one, even the mine i found it boring). So yeah, i don't understand the whole "best 3D ZElda dungeon" point of view... I mean AT LEAST we can all say that Majora's Mask had a lot more interesting dungeon right ? Or maybe i missed something with Twilight Princess ?
I mean, if we talk about last bosses i don't think TP is a good exemple either... Al those fight were easy and anticlimatic which was a huge disappointement to me... Oh yeah,t hey looked nice for sure, but not a single instant i felt threatened... Oh, and the fact Zelda help you was taken from Wind Waker any way. At least Wind Waker invented that...
Why does every game in a series have to be judged almost exclusively on its merits as a part of that series? I know I'm guilty of it - my main thought on TP is that it's on the lower end of the list of best Zeldas. In reality, it's one of my favourite adventure games ever (along with most of the series).
I know there's value in considering how a game pushes its franchise in new directions, but sometimes I wonder how we'd rate a game like TP it was a new IP or a Beyond Good & Evil game or something.
I know there's value in considering how a game pushes its franchise in new directions, but sometimes I wonder how we'd rate a game like TP it was a new IP or a Beyond Good & Evil game or something.
How in the hell is it a surprise twist when they said as much in press for the game and the intro straight up tells you it is?
manueldelalas
Time Traveler
I'm glad you agree how shitty the final boss fight in WW was.
I'm not going to defend TPs final boss, lol, I preferred it to WW not because it was good, but because WWs was bad.
OOT had a good boss fight.
Jawbreaker
Member
Wind Waker has it beat in style, charm, overworld, music, and story. Twilight Princess is clearly better if you look at the meat and potatoes: dungeons. I can't say that one is definitively better than the other, but I can certainly say it's much easier for me to revisit The Wind Waker.
i think botw solves the open world problem pretty well. to be fair - it's something nintendo's struggled with since the move to 3d and something they wanted as far back as ocarina. however in the process of doing so, they lost the sense of urgency a linearly designed game can give you. so there arose a new problem and that problem was solved fairly lazily.
i am looking forward to the future of the franchise. whatever becomes the mm or tp to botw's oot is probably going to be my undisputed favorite in the series. as of now i think i like botw the most, but it's based solely on mechanics and freedom and... actual action and adventure. as a zelda fan, i'm actually invested in the series too - especially when it can be charming or interesting like skyward sword, the wind waker, or majora's mask.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
OP is correct.
Gun Animal
Member
Twilight Princess is the best Zelda game if you were too young to play OoT/MM when they came out. It's the Force Awakens of Zelda.
Flying Toaster
Member
I see nothing wrong with what the OP said. I absolutely love WW but TP is something special. Amazing dungeon design.
LiveFromKyoto
Member
I wish everybody's Wind Waker impressions could be based off Wind Waker HD. The improvements to that game made WW so much better and more enjoyable. I quit the original because it got to be such a drag, but WWHD was my favourite Zelda until BotW.
what Zelda is about changes from game to game. like the variety you mentioned felt in a way like forced mini-games, forcing you away from core zelda elements (exploration, puzzle solving, action). i don't remember much of that in LTTP or OoT, but i may be misremembering.
like it's cool that there's a sumo wrestling, and dragon riding, and goat herding, but on their own, they weren't anything special. i guess the variety and amount of them is impressive, but they're not really what i remember about the game.
Darkspineslayer
Member
Doggo Link was a mistake. Not fun to play at all. Sailing at least had that discovery feeling when you see a new location or outpost.
I agree with the OP, WW is just boriiiiing
boring dungeons. boring overworld
the characters and the music (debatable) are better in WW but guess what, the game is still boooring with not a single memorable dungeon
TP is boring at first with the boring tears shit but once you get to the dungeons theyre so good
also you cant compare botw to WW... yeah in both of them the dungeons are bad but at least in botw the world + exploration + traversal is so fun and varied that it brings the game up. This is absolutely not the case with WW
boring dungeons. boring overworld
the characters and the music (debatable) are better in WW but guess what, the game is still boooring with not a single memorable dungeon
TP is boring at first with the boring tears shit but once you get to the dungeons theyre so good
also you cant compare botw to WW... yeah in both of them the dungeons are bad but at least in botw the world + exploration + traversal is so fun and varied that it brings the game up. This is absolutely not the case with WW
For me the variety of gameplay scenarios is one of the defining features of Zelda. Most games are defined by a central gameplay mechanic or two -- in Mario you jump on platforms, in Doom you shoot, in Witcher 3 you fight and talk -- but in Zelda you adventure. Sometimes that means you fight and solve puzzles, but sometimes you infiltrate an enemy for hiding in barrels or somehow telepathically control a seagull or sumo wrestle a goron or get chased across a field on horseback by a giant robot firing laser beams at you, etc. The mechanics are not the deepest, but they are versatile enough to accommodate a wide variety of experiences.
I'd argue that OoT had a good amount of gameplay variety of this kind, it just wasn't as clearly separated out from the "default" gameplay as it was in TP. You raced on horseback to get Epona, chased the gravedigger through a maze, navigated the Lost Woods and Gerudo Desert, played minigames in Castle Town, snuck through Hyrule Castle gardens, etc.
neoism
Member
yea that ones my second fav behind alttp
D.Lo
Member
I'm playing TP HD and even with the improved textures it's still IMO a fairly ugly game in parts. I have flipped to the Wii/GC version to compare some parts a few times because I though 'it didn't originally look this bad' and instead it looks even worse on the older version. It has just aged poorly, like most games with a more realistic art style from that era. The HD version looks cleaner, but even then still has janky 2005-era animations. There are some nicer looking bits, mostly towns and buildings, but generally anywhere 'natural' (rocks, trees etc) looks really bad.
Wind Waker, on the other hand, on Gamecube, still looks near perfect. Play it on a CRT to run in native resolution, and it still pops with the same magic like the day of release. The HD version damages the art somewhat with the hazy bloom and soft light sources.
Wind Waker is also a beautiful magical whimsical adventure filled with memorable moments and characters. If only they'd let it cook for a few more months to make it more solid, it would have been the greatest game ever made for me. As is it's still one of my favourites.
Wind Waker, on the other hand, on Gamecube, still looks near perfect. Play it on a CRT to run in native resolution, and it still pops with the same magic like the day of release. The HD version damages the art somewhat with the hazy bloom and soft light sources.
Wind Waker is also a beautiful magical whimsical adventure filled with memorable moments and characters. If only they'd let it cook for a few more months to make it more solid, it would have been the greatest game ever made for me. As is it's still one of my favourites.
That's a fucking Twilight vulture lmao
Soul of the Beast
Member
BOTW made my friend buy a Nintendo console, which is saying something.
He absolutely fucking hate Nintendo consoles.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
That is a Skyward Sword Bokoblin. Yeah, they look silly. WW has much better ones, as does BotW.
I haven't played BOTW, but with that in mind, for me TP is the best Zelda period.
I don't care that the graphics haven't aged as well as Wind Waker's. I don't care that the overworld is supposedly barren. I don't care that it's apparently insultingly easy.
The design of the world, the music, the atmosphere, the dungeons... it cast a spell on me like no other Zelda before or since.
I don't care that the graphics haven't aged as well as Wind Waker's. I don't care that the overworld is supposedly barren. I don't care that it's apparently insultingly easy.
The design of the world, the music, the atmosphere, the dungeons... it cast a spell on me like no other Zelda before or since.
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
If you ignore the sailing WindWaker is better
If you then ignore most of the Wolf stuff TP is better again
I like both games but WW felt like it wasted my time a lot more. Sailing itself was fine but constantly having to change wind directions (if you wanted to salvage treasure chests for example) and the Tingle quest put it below TP for me.
If you then ignore most of the Wolf stuff TP is better again
I like both games but WW felt like it wasted my time a lot more. Sailing itself was fine but constantly having to change wind directions (if you wanted to salvage treasure chests for example) and the Tingle quest put it below TP for me.
How can anyone say with a straight face that Wind Waker has better dungeons and bosses than Twilight princess? Is there any difficulty in Wind Waker? Can you even die in that game? In TP you had to think about how to defeat various bosses. In WW the idea of the boss is served on a platter.
Sailing is bad, I would leave my controller and let it auto sail because it was so boring and I played through wind Waker HD. I think the very first dungeon of TP might be better than all of the dungeons in WW.
Only 28 hrs in BoTW and it might be the best game, but it feels very different from traditional 3d entries that followed the LttP/OoT blueprint. Which is why I could see some people disliking the game and the open world format, though I personally thoroughly enjoy it. At times it does seem overwhelming, which is why I'm taking my time with it.
Sailing is bad, I would leave my controller and let it auto sail because it was so boring and I played through wind Waker HD. I think the very first dungeon of TP might be better than all of the dungeons in WW.
Only 28 hrs in BoTW and it might be the best game, but it feels very different from traditional 3d entries that followed the LttP/OoT blueprint. Which is why I could see some people disliking the game and the open world format, though I personally thoroughly enjoy it. At times it does seem overwhelming, which is why I'm taking my time with it.
whiskeysailor
Member
I do love Twilight Princess, but Wind Waker is just such a magical, charming adventure, with a beautiful world, great characters, amazing music etc. Not all games have that.
Can you even die in Twilight Princess? I mean, both are comically easy games.
Benzychenz
Member
Only one of them makes you herd goats in the tutorial.
Twice.
I did a 3 heart no shield run and still couldn't die.
Twice.
I did a 3 heart no shield run and still couldn't die.
I'll say I had more trouble completing WW's Savage Labyrinth than TP's Cave of Ordeals.
FreedomFighter
Member
Wind Waker is easily the least impressive of the console 3D Zeldas. Still a great game though.
I have to agree with the OP too.
Wind Waker is such a charming game and I really enjoyed it at time but just comparing them in retrospect Twilight Princess is easily better.
TP DID have some pacing problems, and there could have been more to the overworld, it was basically Ocarina of Time 2.0 in a lot of ways but the meat of the game is just so much better than Wind Waker. Wind Waker has probably the weakest dungeons of all the 3D Zelda's overall whereas Twilight Princess has a couple that could actually be the best in the series. So TP had better dungeons, better bossfights..
I give the music and artstyle to Wind Waker and I did love exploring random islands but it's probably the weakest 3D Zelda to me overall.
Wind Waker is such a charming game and I really enjoyed it at time but just comparing them in retrospect Twilight Princess is easily better.
TP DID have some pacing problems, and there could have been more to the overworld, it was basically Ocarina of Time 2.0 in a lot of ways but the meat of the game is just so much better than Wind Waker. Wind Waker has probably the weakest dungeons of all the 3D Zelda's overall whereas Twilight Princess has a couple that could actually be the best in the series. So TP had better dungeons, better bossfights..
I give the music and artstyle to Wind Waker and I did love exploring random islands but it's probably the weakest 3D Zelda to me overall.
I mean on my first run I'm pretty sure I died quite a bit in TP. But yeah both of them are easy, I just think Wind Waker is cake walk easy. I actually died numerous times in skyward sword though. Ghirahim is hard
FreedomFighter
Member
They're both easy. TP annoyed me with its Mario bosses (hit 3 times and win). But Wind Waker really dumbed downed the dungeons. They were comically easy. In TP, we had excellent dungeons where you had to actually think (like Lakebed).
razorblade79
Member
I agree, because I really dislike the sneaking parts in WW, the overworld exploring is mostly boring to me and while I like the art, I vastly prefer the style in TP.
WW is a fun 3D Zelda but it's flawed and the remake didn't fix all it's issues. People seem to dislike the slow start to TP but at it's release it didn't bother me at all. It wasn't overstaying it's welcome and introduced the world and characters. Also I didn't mind the 3 bug collecting quests which felt a lot like the dark world gimmick in LttP even though there were 1 or 2 bugs that are annoying as heck to get.
Also based on LttP in my imagination a 3D Zelda always would've looked more like TP than WW or even OoT.
WW is a fun 3D Zelda but it's flawed and the remake didn't fix all it's issues. People seem to dislike the slow start to TP but at it's release it didn't bother me at all. It wasn't overstaying it's welcome and introduced the world and characters. Also I didn't mind the 3 bug collecting quests which felt a lot like the dark world gimmick in LttP even though there were 1 or 2 bugs that are annoying as heck to get.
Also based on LttP in my imagination a 3D Zelda always would've looked more like TP than WW or even OoT.