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Twilight Princess is definitively better than Wind Waker
- Thread starter Regiruler
- Start date
BassForever
Member
I'm with you OP, TP has the vastly better dungeons and more memorable set pieces. WW without the hd upgrade is a fun game held back by boring sailing and an awful late game quest for the tri force pieces. Outside of TP's slow opening that game is ace through its whole run.
In that sense of exploration, though, TP has just as much as WW. It just happens to be by foot or horse rather than ship. The point wasn't to say that there is no exploration, just that it's not as much "free-er" relative to the other 3D Zelda's as some portray.
No poop Sherlock and Watson, Wind Waker and BotW are not identical... Wind Waker was still chained by dogmas of game design dictated by the groundbreaking Ocarina that's why there's a linear progression through the game, are we seriously discussing this?
Also are you seriously denying that the island and treasure charts are just very poor versions of shrines dictated by developing time, production values and some technical limitations? Aren't they put there to reward exploration?
Wind Waker is the first 3d Zelda that let's you explore the entire overworld incredibly early in the game and BotW is clearly based on that concept of freedom that WW offers, then of course there has been 14 years between the two Zeldas and other games outside the franchise served as inspiration.
In one way or the other there some clear Wind Waker DNA in BotW
I see it's too soon for some people to objectively analyze and talk about BotW, too much hype doesn't help the mind.
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ANYWAY... Wind Waker is still better than TP despite the latter having more and better dungeons.
MiamiWesker
Member
I agree with this, BOTW went too far the opposite way. I like the far tighter non stop nature of TP than the just wander around aimlessly for hours and hours and seeing a ton of copy paste all over the world.
OrbitalBeard
Member
Okami is fantastic, and I say that as someone who first played it in late 2015, nearly a decade after its release.
I still think that Link Between Worlds tops any other modern Zelda title, though.
OrbitalBeard
Member
Its intro is far superior to the one in TP. The first five hours of TP are enough to turn off a lot of potential players.
As for BotW's intro, it's so good that it almost single-handedly cancels out every minor complaint I have with the game.
Tadpoles.
zenspider
Member
Exactly! Not to mention the Bokoblin's chase trying to save Colin, rushing past enemies and sneaking in Hyrule Catle to save Midna, Goron Sumo matches, fucking fishing!!!!
I also like that you transform the Kingdom's geography: Unfreezing the Zoras and their river, opening routes to better traverse around, returning the bridges back to their places. Telma is one the best character's in recent Zeldas, I like how forward and sassy she is (she's hylian but looks like a gerudo, now that I think about it). The group of people that gathers at her tavern to save Hyrule... finally someone other than Link tries to do shit.
IF you bother to talk to people, their dialogue changes to better feflect the recent happenings: Zora Prince gains more confidence, Beth and Renados's daugther develop a friendly rivalry over the little Zora, the villagers in Ordon acknowledge tha you have found the children, Malo's sidequest, the Goron elder sidequest, Agitha is so kawaii (and she herself was designed by Miyamoto inspired in Harajuku fashion)... There's so much detail in every room, photographs, drawings in Link's house. Anyway, it has taken The Internet 11 years to finally come around it senses and give Twilight Princess the praise it rightfully deserves.
TP is a game that has everything but ends up somehow being less than the sum of it's parts. WW is pretty much the opposite. There's something about it that elevates it above what the individual parts add up to on paper.
Evil John Locke
Member
Played TP for the first time a month ago. OoT favorite game ever, love WW and MM, did not like SS, and ended up feeling really conflicted about TP. I actually love that it's so similar to OoT, but I hate the wolf, from mechanics to the whole dark world story, did not like Midna, basically didn't like that it felt like an edgelord version of OoT. So, I disagree OP, but more so with your dislike of WW than your enjoyment of TP. WW is awesome and as others have said, successfully unique in my mind. Also sailing is badass, screw the haters.
Astral Dog
Member
Breath of the Wild is the best thing that has happen to Zelda in over 10 years
OrbitalBeard
Member
TP's reputation hasn't changed a bit. Some people love it, some people think it's ok, and some people hate it.
MiamiWesker
Member
It's the exploration factor, and that part is wonderful. I love all zelda games a lot, every single one a GOTY caliber game but I absolutely perfer a more focused varied experience than just open exploring. It's why BOTW isn't really connecting with me like TP or MM or OOT.
To some. To others it just tried something different. Gameplay wise it's a huge improvement, that needs to stay. The games structure I have issues with and of course no real dungeons is crazy.
Professor Beef
Banned
Dat hyperbole
SkywardBeam
Member
Yet nobody in Hyrule Castle Town really gives a shit when suddenly a giant pyramid of light encases the castle. They're basically like "Yeah... Whatever."
At no point in the game does it convey the feeling that the world actually is in danger. Majora's Mask shows how to do it right. The world and characters in TP are just dull. It's also, as far as I remember the only Zelda with NPCs you can't interact with. Those hordes of clones in the city are an absolute farce.
CrazyHorse
Junior Member
People who think WW is a good Zelda game are wrong. Very wrong.
It's a good game but very poor compared to TP.
TP has better everything than WW except agless graphics and a bit more exploration.
It's a good game but very poor compared to TP.
TP has better everything than WW except agless graphics and a bit more exploration.
The HD remake exposed the game to more people that weren't around when it released or some folks gave it a second chance. I'm native in spanish, so I also read other forums in other lenguages, and I have seem more people warming up to it beyong GAF. Even if you browse International Miiverse, the comments, in general, are really possitive, not that I'm saying Miiverse is a reflection of universal opinion, but it does seem to be well-receive by Nintendo fans, certainly more so now than after six months of its release.
CrazyHorse
Junior Member
I think more people hate it now than on release - unfortunately. The Zelda cycle will be longer for TP but eventually it will get a place next to OoT in the minds of younger people. It seems to me that newer Zelda fans like TP more. They tend to be more objective than other fans.
Yeah the terrible towns/NPCs are what really kills me about TP. The world doesn't feel alive at all.
Common Knowledge
Member
What's hyperbole about it? It's an opinion. And one I agree with. BoTW has successfully recaptured the essence and spirit of Zelda that has slowly diminished over time, and it's first game in a long time to make me look forward to what the future of the franchise holds.
Riposte
Member
Twilight Princess's awesome final boss rush feels rather wasted with the game's low difficulty. I remember trying to squeeze everything out of the final sword duel. Otherwise, I did like it more than Wind Waker.
Just throw in a few TP quality dungeons and a couple of new enemies, and I'd settle. Let's see what the DLC does.
Just throw in a few TP quality dungeons and a couple of new enemies, and I'd settle. Let's see what the DLC does.
FunkyDealer
Banned
I think I agree with OP. Twilight Princess has much lower lows, but also much higher highs.
I think it's close, but TP edges it for me.
I think it's close, but TP edges it for me.
Prince of Space
Banned
Not really.
Breath of the Wild breaks free of many of the shackles that have been holding the series back since Ocarina (or A Link to the Past, one could argue) in more significant ways than Skyward Sword. There's obviously room for improvement, but this is a fantastic direction for the franchise.
Better dungeons (Twilight Princess has some of the best dungeons in the entire series), bosses, and items I'll grant you, but exploration? Not a chance.
The exploration in Wind Waker was amazing, and in some ways still beats Breath Of The Wild as far as I'm concerned. You're traveling to your destination and you see an island you've never been to on the horizon and just deciding on a whim to adjust course. No idea what's on it, or what you might find when you get there.
Nothing has ever replicated that feeling of sailing on a vast ocean for me, when you're traveling with the wind and the seagulls join you for a while. It just felt so free.
Skyward Sword should have been an air based version of that with floating islands and no ground sections.
It "broke those shackles" by providing a big, boring overworld only filled by a bunch of dull shrines. It doesn't have the puzzles and dungeons that made previous Zeldas interesting. Breath of the Wild just feels dull, like all open world games. A tightly-focused dungeon-heavy puzzle-based experience is what Zelda needed and Breath of the Wild runs 180 degrees away from that.
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Hey, a quick hirearchy check:
WW > Skyward Sword >>>>>>>>> Metroid :Federation Force >> TP
WW > Skyward Sword >>>>>>>>> Metroid :Federation Force >> TP
Deputy Moonman
Member
Common Knowledge
Member
We had that, it was called Skyward Sword and it received a rather mixed reception from the fanbase.
I'm not one to suggest that every Zelda game needs to be a big, sprawling open world now, but one thing that BotW absolutely nailed was the sense of wonder and discovery that has been near non-existant in the recent 3D Zeldas. Something that makes you feel like you're actually on an adventure and doing things for yourself. Whatever overworld design future Zelda games have, one thing that absolutely must remain is player freedom and choice. And I think Nintendo knows that now.
I was thinking of Link Between Worlds, which is the best Zelda game in years and years (since either Minish Cap or the Oracle games). What I prize in Zelda games is puzzles and dungeon-crawling, and it is completely and totally absent in Breath of the Wild. All there is is this big open world full of monsters to kill and shrines to clear to break up the monotony of going through this huge expanse. I don't want that, I want tightly-focused experiences and I don't like navigating vast tracts of nothingness to find another copy-and-paste miniature dungeon to get another unrewarding reward.
Twilight Princess got it. The dungeons were challenging, rewarding, filled with useful and fun items and compelling boss battles. This game doesn't have anything remotely like that.
EDIT: I also feel that guiding the player along a proper narrative structure is not necessarily key (Link Between Worlds did have quite a bit of choice in direction, obviously), but it can be highly beneficial. I don't like games that are wide open and let you do whatever you want.
Prince of Space
Banned
Sounds like you're talking about a dungeon crawler, and that's never been what Zelda's about. I do agree that Breath of the Wild could've used better dungeons, something more akin to the NES game's labyrinths (tho tbf I've only completed 1 Divine Beast so far, so maybe they get more complicated).
MiamiWesker
Member
Yes the gameplay systems and openess should stay. The lack of actual gameplay variety and dungeons needs to change. It needs more unique items. It needs proper dungeons. It needs somewhat better pacing, exploration for the sake of exploring isn't the best. And the world is too big, a bunch of the outer edges of the map is filled with almost nothing but the same korok seeds or same limited enemy variety you have been fighting for 70 hours. BOTW does a ton right with bring zelda to modern gameplay, but it lost a lot of the design that made zelda unique and special.
Common Knowledge
Member
Interesting you mention ALBW, since I think many would disagree that that's a "puzzle-heavy" game. I enjoyed it quite a bit, though.
ALBW and BoTW are both from the same vein of design that embraces player freedom and choice, so I wouldn't mind more games like either of them.
I too miss standard dungeons in BoTW, but I welcomed the refreshing experience the shrines provided. I absolutely loved the physics based puzzles that can be solved multiple ways depending on how creative a player is. If they can translate that to a full-fledged dungeon experience (rather than the dull, "lock-and-key" design prior 3D Zelda games had in droves), then I think we'd have a real winner.
Check out Link to the Past, or Link's Awakening, or the Oracle Games, or Minish Cap, or Link Between Worlds. Hell, look at Zelda 1. The dungeons are absolutely the key and most important element of the game. Bombing the cracked wall, finding the small key, killing the miniboss, lighting all the torches, etc. THAT is what I want out of a Zelda game. I don't care about the overworld side.
I can agree with this. The first few hours of TP are painful.
Huge Succeeded
Banned
I like Twilight Princess more than Ocarina of Time but I don't like either that much
I had fond memories of Wind Waker, even though I never beat it, and it probably kept me hooked longer than any other 3D Zelda game besides Skyward Sword (the only old 3D Zelda game I've ever enjoyed enough to actually finish, lol).
but I went and picked up WWHD when it came out and uh I don't like Wind Waker either. I'd probably put Twilight Princess over it, from what I've played of them both.
I'm thinking that Skyward Sword and Breath of the Wild are the only two 3D Zelda games that I genuinely enjoy, lol
I had fond memories of Wind Waker, even though I never beat it, and it probably kept me hooked longer than any other 3D Zelda game besides Skyward Sword (the only old 3D Zelda game I've ever enjoyed enough to actually finish, lol).
but I went and picked up WWHD when it came out and uh I don't like Wind Waker either. I'd probably put Twilight Princess over it, from what I've played of them both.
I'm thinking that Skyward Sword and Breath of the Wild are the only two 3D Zelda games that I genuinely enjoy, lol
Poor game design... why risk turning people off?
OrbitalBeard
Member
No, it's really not. I'd go one further and say it's the best thing to happen to the Zelda series in over 16 years (since Majora's Mask).
ZombiePlatypus
Member
Easily GOTY contender so far.
Prince of Space
Banned
Well that's too bad cuz the best Zelda games are the ones that strike a balance between dungeon and overworld exploration -- including games like the original and ALTTP (never really got into any of the handheld games, personally). I mean, Zelda's kinda all about exploring this new, unknown world and uncovering all of its secrets for yourself, rather than going from one puzzle/combat trial to the next.
Absolutely.
Mohonky
Member
Zelda is my favourite series, but even I struggled replaying TP HD. The overworld is really large but its so barren and lifeless. Theres just nothing happening in it, large expanses of nothing. If you havent got Epona its an absolute slog getting around for much if the game until you can warp and even then outside of the main areas theres really not much worth seeing in the open world.
Contrasting to Wind Waker, I enjoyed going back to that game so much in HD. The ocean can be little bit of a pain to get around (fixed greatly with the Swift Sail in HD) but at least every Island was interesting or unique in some respects. It was just a more compelling game to run about in the overworld and explore what each Island had to offer.
It also goes without saying the aesthetics and charm in WW are so much greater than TP.
For me, TP is probably one of the weakest in the series.
Though interestingly, my sister who is a diehard Zelda fan, rates TP as one of her favourites. So I dunno.
Contrasting to Wind Waker, I enjoyed going back to that game so much in HD. The ocean can be little bit of a pain to get around (fixed greatly with the Swift Sail in HD) but at least every Island was interesting or unique in some respects. It was just a more compelling game to run about in the overworld and explore what each Island had to offer.
It also goes without saying the aesthetics and charm in WW are so much greater than TP.
For me, TP is probably one of the weakest in the series.
Though interestingly, my sister who is a diehard Zelda fan, rates TP as one of her favourites. So I dunno.
Twilight Princess has fuck-all in terms of exploration. The game's main path makes sure you see EVERYTHING and that you can get involved with, and maybe there'll be a slight splinter off where you can find a heart piece or a Poe or something. Otherwise, the game is SUPER afraid you won't see all its content.
OrbitalBeard
Member
It's pretty incredible how little BotW cares about you seeing everything. The game is so drastically different in design from both TP and SS, it's unreal.
I stumbled upon the
shield surfing minigame in the Hebra mountain region