-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Twilight Princess is definitively better than Wind Waker
- Thread starter Regiruler
- Start date
SweetJohnnyCage
Member
Well, Wind Waker was 2002, so I guess you're right.
MiamiWesker
Member
Or people actually like good level design and interesting gameplay and don't go by pretty graphics and charm.
TP has far far far superior gameplay than WW, WW doesn't even have half the variety or interesting things that happen in TP. Not to mention the far superior dungeons and items.
Spieler Eins
Member
TP is the most varied game in the series. Best dungeon- and boss designs. It looks much better than people give it credit for, since it's jam packed with details and features great ideas like metalic death mountain. Wolf time guarantees that amazing atmosphere is coming up, straight from the get-go (i.e. the first hour is already great from being a wolf on). Not using certain items after each dungeon doesn't really matter, since they are basically dungeon mechanics, which provide completely unique gameplay for each one.
Wind Waker, despite popular belief, has a much worse intro than TP. Not only does it have the standard village junk, but starts with a confusing dungeon that has nothing to do with Zelda gameplay. And even after that you don't get the boat straight away. The other dungeons are either unremarkable or only remarkable because they are among the most annoying in the series (particularly partner dungeons). Both games don't exactly have lively overworlds, but WW is way too big and doesn't even have visual variety. It's just blue and has nothing that would make a fun pirate adventure.
Wind Waker, despite popular belief, has a much worse intro than TP. Not only does it have the standard village junk, but starts with a confusing dungeon that has nothing to do with Zelda gameplay. And even after that you don't get the boat straight away. The other dungeons are either unremarkable or only remarkable because they are among the most annoying in the series (particularly partner dungeons). Both games don't exactly have lively overworlds, but WW is way too big and doesn't even have visual variety. It's just blue and has nothing that would make a fun pirate adventure.
MiamiWesker
Member
Again WW is one of the worst designed zelda games. While TP is amazingly designed, with constant gameplay variety. So no.
Astral Dog
Member
I find the Twilight Princess dungeons a bit overrated honestly,but mostly because they all look hideous and the combat is so weak they kinda lose the charm they are supposed to have.
I find them mostly annoying despite their good puzzle design,much better prefer the Ocarina dungeons and least WW didn't let you stay too long in them
However Yeti Mansion is god tier,the city in the sky has the boss and double clawshot and Arbiters Grounds the spinner.
I just found the city in the sky concept done better in a Game Boy Advance game of all things.
Edit: i forgot to mention the music,its no good in Twilight Princess :/
I find them mostly annoying despite their good puzzle design,much better prefer the Ocarina dungeons and least WW didn't let you stay too long in them
However Yeti Mansion is god tier,the city in the sky has the boss and double clawshot and Arbiters Grounds the spinner.
I just found the city in the sky concept done better in a Game Boy Advance game of all things.
Edit: i forgot to mention the music,its no good in Twilight Princess :/
Honestly it's great to see a thread where TP not gets shit on like it's the worst Zelda game ever. Kudos.
Btw i like both Wind Waker and TP i love TP more but Wind Waker is also special was my first 3D Zelda game (my first Zelda game was Minish Cap) i love both Toon and realistic Link to be honest.
Toon Link deserves another full 3D game imo.
Btw i like both Wind Waker and TP i love TP more but Wind Waker is also special was my first 3D Zelda game (my first Zelda game was Minish Cap) i love both Toon and realistic Link to be honest.
Toon Link deserves another full 3D game imo.
Nazgul_Hunter
Member
I find the Twilight Princess dungeons a bit overrated honestly,but mostly because they all look hideous and the combat is so weak they kinda lose the charm they are supposed to have.
I find them mostly annoying despite their good puzzle design,much better prefer the Ocarina dungeons and least WW didn't let you stay too long in them
However Yeti Mansion is god tier,the city in the sky has the boss and double clawshot and Arbiters Grounds the spinner.
I just found the city in the sky concept done better in a Game Boy Advance game of all things.
I thought TP dungeons were similarly easy to the ones in WW tbh; there were just more of them. I don't know if it's because I was a lot younger when I played OoT and MM, but both those games had better dungeon IMO. The visual design for TP's dungeons is the best in any Zelda though.
On that note, having played WWHD and TPHD recently and comparing those to the shrines in BotW, I can saw that on average shrine puzzles are harder to solve than TP or WW dungeon puzzles.
Sabercrusader
Member
As someone who really enjoyed Twilight Princess, I think you're wrong. Wind Waker is just so much more interesting and stylized. But to each their own I guess.
Dangansona
Member
Since they are the two sections most criticized, I'd rather play the beginning of TP than the triforce hunt in WW any day of the week.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Zelda: The Phantom Princess?
Thunder Monkey
Banned
TP has the best dungeons, and some of the best bosses I've seen in the series.
WW is just beautiful, everything gives a cartoony feel. It's a masterclass in artistic design. But the game portion of it is severely lacking.
TP years later just looks aged. But it has the game portion down to a science.
To look at? Wind Waker. Love those high res GCN emulator shots. WiiU version loses something with its "advancements".
To play? Twilight Princess all the way. TP HD on WiiU improves the look... kind of... it's still pretty ugly... yeah... ellipses...
WW is just beautiful, everything gives a cartoony feel. It's a masterclass in artistic design. But the game portion of it is severely lacking.
TP years later just looks aged. But it has the game portion down to a science.
To look at? Wind Waker. Love those high res GCN emulator shots. WiiU version loses something with its "advancements".
To play? Twilight Princess all the way. TP HD on WiiU improves the look... kind of... it's still pretty ugly... yeah... ellipses...
SkywardBeam
Member
Skyward Sword would like to have a word with you...
Visually, the cel-shaded art style in Wind Waker has aged much better than the quasi-realistic character designs in Twilight Princess. Textures look murky, the geometry is too angular, and draw distances are rather poor.
In terms of dungeon design, Twilight Princess is leagues above Wind Waker in my opinion. There are some truly horrific and painful dungeons in Wind Waker that are a chore to get through (Wind Temple is the most egregious). Bosses were also far more interesting and dynamic in TP.
Combat also felt a lot more satisfying in Twilight Princess. I couldn't say why exactly, it just felt more fluid and responsive.
The story is meh in both games, although Wind Waker is automatically docked 1000 points for making Tingle a central character.
In case you can't tell, overall I believe Twilight Princess to be a much better game.
In terms of dungeon design, Twilight Princess is leagues above Wind Waker in my opinion. There are some truly horrific and painful dungeons in Wind Waker that are a chore to get through (Wind Temple is the most egregious). Bosses were also far more interesting and dynamic in TP.
Combat also felt a lot more satisfying in Twilight Princess. I couldn't say why exactly, it just felt more fluid and responsive.
The story is meh in both games, although Wind Waker is automatically docked 1000 points for making Tingle a central character.
In case you can't tell, overall I believe Twilight Princess to be a much better game.
cryptosporidium
Member
Im playing through MM alongside BOTW right now. After I might borrow TP HD and play through it. I played WW HD when it came out so Ill see how it stacks up. WW HD had a average later half and I recall TP being really good after the horrid beginning.
MiamiWesker
Member
Everything, nearly every moment in TP had something new happening. I already commented on this but you want it again. Jousting on a huge bridge, sumo wresting a giant Goron, having an epic chase across the entire hyrule field, flying on a dragon down a river, snowboarding down a snow capped mountain, having a shootout in an old west town, being able to actually go underwater with the Zora, riding giant boars across a huge desert and infiltrating a moblin enemy stronghold, manipulating statues in the lost woods, of course fishing and that's not including the far far far better dungeons than WW.
When people say that Wind Waker was so different and Twilight Princess is derivative, I sometimes wonder if the art style makes people think it's more different from the others than it really is. The only thing that sets it apart is the sailing, and that's the most tedious part of the game. The style of play on land and the way in which you progress are still very much like the OoT and TP.
I think Wind Waker does manage to create the "illusion" of having more freedom of exploration than it really does. When you really get down to it, you are still pushed down a relatively linear path. You can travel to all these different islands, but you'll realize you have nothing to do when you get there if you haven't done the right things yet. This where BotW really made the change that the series desperately needed.
This isn't meant to say WW is bad. I enjoyed both it and TP, but I definitely think WW is given far more of benefit of the doubt and TP gets unfairly trashed these days. They both have their strengths and weaknesses.
Wind Waker certainly gets going faster than either OoT or TP. Twilight has a painfully slow first few hours. I'd go so far as to say it took a good 5-7 hours before I really got hooked. That being said, Wind Waker's fetch quest really grinds the game to a halt later in the game, which is quite jarring.
Wind Waker felt far easier, particularly in combat. The cue that the player is given during combat makes it way too easy. Twilight had more balanced combat.
As far as art styles, I like what WW did and glad they did it. However, I wouldn't want all Zelda games to continue looking like that. Twilight may not have re-imagined the art style, but given that Ocarina was on hardware that was still not quite up to the task of a game of that scale, it was nice to see that art style on more capable hardware. Both games look especially nice in the Wii U HD remakes.
I love both, but if I have to choose, I'd probably give the edge to Twilight Princess (GC or Wii U version)
I think Wind Waker does manage to create the "illusion" of having more freedom of exploration than it really does. When you really get down to it, you are still pushed down a relatively linear path. You can travel to all these different islands, but you'll realize you have nothing to do when you get there if you haven't done the right things yet. This where BotW really made the change that the series desperately needed.
This isn't meant to say WW is bad. I enjoyed both it and TP, but I definitely think WW is given far more of benefit of the doubt and TP gets unfairly trashed these days. They both have their strengths and weaknesses.
Wind Waker certainly gets going faster than either OoT or TP. Twilight has a painfully slow first few hours. I'd go so far as to say it took a good 5-7 hours before I really got hooked. That being said, Wind Waker's fetch quest really grinds the game to a halt later in the game, which is quite jarring.
Wind Waker felt far easier, particularly in combat. The cue that the player is given during combat makes it way too easy. Twilight had more balanced combat.
As far as art styles, I like what WW did and glad they did it. However, I wouldn't want all Zelda games to continue looking like that. Twilight may not have re-imagined the art style, but given that Ocarina was on hardware that was still not quite up to the task of a game of that scale, it was nice to see that art style on more capable hardware. Both games look especially nice in the Wii U HD remakes.
I love both, but if I have to choose, I'd probably give the edge to Twilight Princess (GC or Wii U version)
Deputy Moonman
Member
In my own subjective opinion, I agree with the OP 100%. I hated traversing Wind Waker's world and felt like the little island hubs were way too tiny to be enjoyable. Another thing. People are split on whether they like the look of toon link or not, but what about the abomination of enemies in the game?
wtf is this?
What's crazy to me are the people who dismiss TP by saying they can't remember anything from the game. Twilight Princess has arguably the best dungeons as a whole out of any of the zelda games, but I guess people choose to forget that part. And you can't complain about TP's overworld being bland and boring, yet praise Wind Waker for having a vast ocean of nothing... I mean c'mon. That doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy Wind Waker, either. I can understand that people appreciate Wind Waker's visuals and unique world more than Twilight Princess, but TP was much grander in scope, more varied in game play with the addition of wolf link, and has the far better dungeons.
wtf is this?
What's crazy to me are the people who dismiss TP by saying they can't remember anything from the game. Twilight Princess has arguably the best dungeons as a whole out of any of the zelda games, but I guess people choose to forget that part. And you can't complain about TP's overworld being bland and boring, yet praise Wind Waker for having a vast ocean of nothing... I mean c'mon. That doesn't mean that I didn't enjoy Wind Waker, either. I can understand that people appreciate Wind Waker's visuals and unique world more than Twilight Princess, but TP was much grander in scope, more varied in game play with the addition of wolf link, and has the far better dungeons.
DieNgamers
Member
^ That guy is from Skyward Sword.
Well, Zelda fans like Zelda for different reasons, I guess I like the dungeons in WW better. I never really enjoyed dungeons (even in the N64 games) that much, though Majora's Mask probably has the best of all of them.
Well, Zelda fans like Zelda for different reasons, I guess
I like the dungeons in WW better. I never really enjoyed dungeons (even in the N64 games) that much, though Majora's Mask probably has the best of all of them.Is a Metroidvania game basically linear because you need to get the right upgrades to progress in certain areas? Exploration is still exploration, 'true' freedom or not.
ienjoyrawfish
Member
You can say the same about the word "objectively".
It pisses me off a lot more than it should to see those words misused on this forum.
LordKasual
Banned
something you don't, obviously.
Real question is, what on earth do you expect to gain from this thread
other than half of the posters agreeing with you, the other half not agreeing with you
and a ton of silly posts listing subjective experiences as objective facts to support their claims
ReubyJuice
Member
Just reading you list all of these things gave me a serious bout of nostalgia and made me want to go back and play the game again. I forgot about a lot of these moments.
How did you expect the conversation to go. How do you expect a conversation about comparing two video games of the same series to go, if not people listing why they think one was worse/better than the other.
I think the sense of adventure and exploration is one of the key parts of Zelda and difficult to quantify but yeah I agree WW captures it better.
Well duh... who the hell plays zelda games with a guide?
Unique isn't synonymous with good. I've always disliked that TP followed so closely to OoT, but Wind Waker was an absolute mess of a game, and is just packed to the brim with problems. TP was a play it safe entry, but it does everything it does very well at least. I can't say the same about Wind Waker. It's the only console Zelda I refuse to replay because the main draws of a Zelda - overworld exploration and dungeon gameplay - are such a huge drag.
The HD version was a bit better, even though the visuals took a small hit to their unique, cartoony look. But it doesn't fix many of the huge problems that game has, just a few of them (though the Tri-Force quest and the annoyances of sailing were two of the big ones).
EDIT: I still say Skyward Sword gets the worst rep of them all, and for undue reasons. It was a Zelda game that oozed more personality than anything before it (even WW, had actual story and characters moreso than any one before it, had very god dungeon design that well utilised the Wii's capabilities, was gorgeous, and the overworld segments were fun (but too linear). Until BotW it was easily my favourite 3D Zelda, and outside of disdain for motion controls and the more pronounced linear design of the game (which, imo, was really just throwing out the pretense of freedom that most Zeldas pretended to have before that) I've never understood why that game gets so much hate.
TP's overworld is locked out by mandatory minigames: goat herding, fishing, tears of light, that dragon canyon rail shooter, snowboarding to enter the mansion, that chase with the horse carriage.
WW's overworld is locked out by not being able to change the direction of the wind.
Big difference.
QisTopTier
XisBannedTier
I say they both have their faults, wind waker does a better job at tapping into the wanderlust of the old games while twilight did combat and dungeons better
That guy isn't even from Windwaker.
I'd argue Twilight Princess doesn't even have the best dungeons in the 3D games (MM imo), much less the 2D ones. I also don't think they are "far better" than Wind Waker's, and that's kind of a problem I have with all the 3D games as a whole: outside of a few instances, the dungeons are typically so streamlined and simple that none of them really stick out to me or provide a ton of enjoyment. I can tell WW's are more linear and easier, but I can't say I wasn't really having any less or more fun with them, for better or worse. That's why seeing Mark Brown's Boss Keys videos were really enlightening to me, because it always feels like I'm just blasting through them and going through the motions so it's hard to take a critical eye to them.
As far as the overworld goes, Wind Waker is the only 3D game where I felt like I was actually exploring, even if some of that feeling is emulated. I also thought combat and control are both better than TP. Then there's the art direction, atmosphere, characters, etc.. I like Zelda games because they are greater than the sum of their parts, and that's ultimately where WW surpasses the other games for me. Obviously I didn't get too analytical here, but personally and judging from other posts in this thread it's pretty clear that no, TP is not definitely better.
Also if it wasn't obvious enough from that last paragraph, I haven't played BotW yet.
Uhhhhh, that's definitely not what the Bokoblins in Wind Waker look like...
This is almost definitely the truth, as much as I love the last boss of Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess. That final fight with Ganondorf... man, that battle is just so good.
SpiceMelange
Member
TP is the Zelda game that disappointed me so much I pretty much stopped being a Zelda fan (and it was by far my favorite series since LTTP). I finished it, but SS and the DS games were the nail to the coffin and I couldn't stomach them at all (never finished any of those). Fortunately ALBW made me believe in the Zelda team again, I loved that one. Loving BotW too.
Screamapillar
Member
Mostly disagree on all points. I prefer Wind Waker in most respects to TP, minus a couple of the bosses. Not to mention, using the word 'better' is a horrible way to form or share an opinion.
MiamiWesker
Member
I do not understand how fans of zelda could be turned off to the whole series because of TP. TP is Zeldas greatest hits, it has elements of all of them. Just shows how this series means different things to different people. TP to me a near perfect zelda game, not my favorite but a 10 for sure.
JaseMath
Member
Skyward Sword is incredible though. It distills the best parts of Zelda's core mechanics into a tight package.
TP was boring and derivative, and WW was painfully unfinished but at least it actually had a unique idea it tried to see through. TP was just going through the motions most of the time and anything that sparked a moment of creativity or ingenuity like the spinner was woefully underutilized.
Playing through the game at the moment and roll my eyes every time one of these "interesting things" happen. I just want to get back to the regular game.