Pyroclastic
Banned
I had a bit of sympathy for what you were trying to get across but this is where you lost me. yikes
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Mass Effect Andromeda's poor handling of LGBT
- Thread starter Burbeting
- Start date
I had a bit of sympathy for what you were trying to get across but this is where you lost me. yikes
Ryder is whatever you make them, basically. That applies to their personality/attitude, as well as to their sexual orientation (within the limits the game provides you with, of course).
Most of the lesbians and bi women I've spoken to liked that scene. It's personal taste, obv. But Sara is adorkable, and the scene was so awkward it was cute.
ymmv
You say that, but someone just asked Fernando Melo on twitter if it was intended that gay Scott be the only one who couldn't get the romance achievement, and Melo replied that anyone should be able to get any of the achievements and that it must be a bug and he'll look into it.
A bug.
Not creating 3 m/m romances is a bug.
Not an oversight. Not a deliberate decision. A bug.
I wonder if there will be any recognition of how badly all of this has been handled?
They've stated time and time again that characters and the relationships (romantic and platonic) that you can build with them form a central part of their design process and goals.
This is what BioWare is.
The transgender character is an interesting topic because it's something that I, not having gone through the experience of a transgender person, wouldn't have even blinked at. I probably even would have seen it as progressive, as the designers likely did.
But going through and reading posts (and Laura Dale's article) that explain the nuances of the situation was really helpful and now I understand this issue way better. It's frustrating, however, to know that there's so many things like this that I'd totally miss otherwise.
But going through and reading posts (and Laura Dale's article) that explain the nuances of the situation was really helpful and now I understand this issue way better. It's frustrating, however, to know that there's so many things like this that I'd totally miss otherwise.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Not to nitpick, but for the future, it's just transgender, not transgendered
Musky_Cheese
Banned
Well said and a lot of good points.
But I would suspect it was simple error. They may have not realized the gay male character couldn't get the achievement.
At least we know they are not paying any attention to this specific matter during the character design process at all. It might be a little bit harsh, but the more I look into this problem the more I feel that the gay options are just added at some last moments to balance things out.
And... the fix would soon be changing the required # of romances from 3 to 2 for the matchmaker achievement.
It is an important issue, who the hell says otherwise? I hope you don't think of me that way. That is totally not who I am. My opinion was that this is is an issue that should be fixed like all the other issues. What is the issue? The issue is that important and relevant content is missing and it should be added into the game.
You are wrong about my opinion. My opinion is not that this is a less important problem than all the other issues with Mass Effect. I certainly didn't want to portray it like that. But I also don't think it's way more important than all the other issues.
If what you say is true and there are really people out there trying to label this as a nonissue then yes it deserves it's own thread and way more attention than the other issues. This does change the whole situation and discussion. I really hope we get a statement on this from bioware.
And as I said before I am not defending all of bioware. Management and most likely EA deserves all the shit they get. I already admitted that it is hard to read if people are making this distinction as most people only use the word bioware(myself included). And yes I do see myself attacked for this, called fanboy etc. But I see that a misinterpretation of my words.
Your last sentence really bugged me. I really did not try to do that. I feel like every second sentence of me is repeating that this an issue that needs fixing, but I keep getting the middle finger with "don't make this a nonissue".
@Eumi I didn't say it directly before, I mentioned that it would be an issue to me if there were straight love options missing. I also said that the issue wouldn't be more or less important as the other issues. I am waiting for a patch before I play anyway.
@Eumi, broscientific, Link Ok you got me there. I do have to apologize for this one. I don't want to make this a straight vs LGBT thing. I am sorry for that. It's hard for a straight person talking about stuff like this without offending anyone. To me it feels like a minefield, but I am trying. I saw that post of that guy writing something and quickly editing his post adding that he is not anti-LGBT and he is sorry he offended someone. I did feel a bit cornered.
I did not apologize anywhere, the only time I apologized is this very post. I apologize for the straight vs LGBT thing not for my opinion as it was understood. I tried to clarify that. See above.
Well, you do keep making fun of me for my opinion wherever you can. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding going on. I am repeatedly trying to clarify things, but expressing myself is not easy as this is not my native language. I do feel cornered by some, therefore i overracted a bit.
As I said above, sorry for making this a straight vs LGBT thing.
Yes, I agree. I am usually not a person that leaves a discussion like that. I apologize for the aggressive statement.
Sorry about that straight vs LGBT thing, both people are fine. My opinion is not shitty nor invalid by default. But it is certainly discussable as I feel myself misunderstood.
The "Bug" will probably be that the achievement should trigger on 2 not 3
Now I hate sarcasm but I've been driven to it!
[edit]
Jinx!!
I mean, Krem was hardly a faceless character. He was constantly leading the chargers to take care of loose ends. You just had to talk to him often to actually get those wartable missions. For instance, Krem kills the Envy demon that escapes you if you sided with the Templars.
On top of that, Krem had a lot to talk about that wasn't just trans related things.
chillybright
Banned
Malice or incompetence?
I am thinking inconsideration.
My bet is on convenient ignorance (plus maybe some people being too busy adding more LIs for straight Scott and gay-but-mostly-just-so-straight-guys-can-get-off-to-it Sara).
Thanks! See, helpful... but frustrating. Thankfully, I like being corrected and want to try to do what's right. A lot of people tend to knee-jerk when they're told they shouldn't do something.
I'm trying not to be too disappointed until I actually play the game, but my issues with this are getting worse the more I read.
- The Kaidan romance with mShep in ME3 was the first time I really "felt" that representation in a video game. I still love the pairing. The fact that a lot of lines were shared (but not all) with the femShep/Kaidan romance didn't bother me. Cortez was also well done but it's not the same as romancing a squadmate, particularly one who's been there from the beginning (depending on choices ofc).
- Dorian in Inquisition was by and large (IMO), the best gay male representation in any video game I've ever played, and the romance was also fantastic. I love his story and character from beginning to end, and even how the romance plays out in the Trespasser DLC. Really hoping he's in the next DA game.
- Andromeda has no gay male romance available for Scott within the actual squad as far as we're aware. The two available might be super cool or whatever, but we have a "Cortez" style romance, fade to black scene, not able to interact in the field AFAIK.
It's just a broken trajectory really. Dragon Age has always had that representation to some degree or another, and the choices (and scenes) grew with the series. They finally went there in ME3, with the romance scenes being really well done (finally) in Inquisition, and now we've regressed. But only for gay Scott, for some reason. Everyone else gets the upgrade but him :/
Forgive the dramatics but I'm really, really disappointed by this. Honestly was looking forward to seeing what the next male/male romance was going to be in the new Mass Effect game - I know I shouldn't conflate Dragon Age and Mass Effect - my heart lies with Mass Effect and I suppose I was just really hoping that trajectory would continue. Bizarrely there's never even been a male/male alien romance in Mass Effect - this would have been the perfect opportunity. Even if they added another male squadmate that was romanceable by Scott, it's going to be "added in", it's not the same. The next chance for a good m/m romance in Mass Effect is minimum four years away, and that's assuming they even continue the franchise. What's the chat Bioware?
- The Kaidan romance with mShep in ME3 was the first time I really "felt" that representation in a video game. I still love the pairing. The fact that a lot of lines were shared (but not all) with the femShep/Kaidan romance didn't bother me. Cortez was also well done but it's not the same as romancing a squadmate, particularly one who's been there from the beginning (depending on choices ofc).
- Dorian in Inquisition was by and large (IMO), the best gay male representation in any video game I've ever played, and the romance was also fantastic. I love his story and character from beginning to end, and even how the romance plays out in the Trespasser DLC. Really hoping he's in the next DA game.
- Andromeda has no gay male romance available for Scott within the actual squad as far as we're aware. The two available might be super cool or whatever, but we have a "Cortez" style romance, fade to black scene, not able to interact in the field AFAIK.
It's just a broken trajectory really. Dragon Age has always had that representation to some degree or another, and the choices (and scenes) grew with the series. They finally went there in ME3, with the romance scenes being really well done (finally) in Inquisition, and now we've regressed. But only for gay Scott, for some reason. Everyone else gets the upgrade but him :/
Forgive the dramatics but I'm really, really disappointed by this. Honestly was looking forward to seeing what the next male/male romance was going to be in the new Mass Effect game - I know I shouldn't conflate Dragon Age and Mass Effect - my heart lies with Mass Effect and I suppose I was just really hoping that trajectory would continue. Bizarrely there's never even been a male/male alien romance in Mass Effect - this would have been the perfect opportunity. Even if they added another male squadmate that was romanceable by Scott, it's going to be "added in", it's not the same. The next chance for a good m/m romance in Mass Effect is minimum four years away, and that's assuming they even continue the franchise. What's the chat Bioware?
Good for you Mergesort, no hard feelings
Apologies from myself there as well, as someone who lives and works with people without English as their first language I'm normally pretty sensitive to seeing it and where it can cause disagreement.
I think I understand your position a little more now, you agree its an issue that should be addressed and in your opinion its something which does not require preference over any other issue. You would feel the same were the same issue be prevalent on "your" playthrough.
Man Called Aerodynamics
Member
Eh... This achievement thing just seems like a red herring. It's correct to say that every player can get the achievement if they want to. That doesn't mean that every player will be able to find three separate romances that conform to their real-life preferences.
The real problem is that when you stack up all the romance possibilities, gay male Ryder looks distinctly like a second class citizen.
FlutterPuffs
Member
Oh my god.
I did not mean to apologize. But i am sorry about that stupid comment
Yes. In the animation thread I cross posted a post from 9gag. It was the picture with femRyder and Peebees face compared to an "improved" version. Some artist photoshoped the faces to look more realistic. After that I got called misogynic or something, because of the unrealistic portrayal of women in media. The reason I posted that picture was to show how a more realistic the face could have looked like. Yes, the artist made them prettier, but that wasn't my point. Most understood some did not. We came to the conclusion that the eyes were the main culprit as to why the faces looked less realistic. Someone photoshoped the eyes of the "improved" Ryder on to the ingame model and most people agreed that this fixed alot.
Yep, keep going.
I haven't seen any sex scene videos yet, but I did read somewhere that they improved on the sex scenes for male/female interactions. They even added hip thrusting. The content difference is really disappointing.
As for the reason, I imagine it might be again a decision by management. Could a better portrayal of gay sex have an impact on the rating in different countries? Will andromeda get a release in russia?
I guess it's the Star Trek case all over again: there are all kinds of beings in space, it just happens that all the aliens we meet are straight.
I think Kremisius is more than that, though obviously he's not like a companion. Speaking of which, I wasn't a fan of the Bull's reaction when discussing the matter.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
What does this mean?
Good for you Mergesort, no hard feelings
Apologies from myself there as well, as someone who lives and works with people without English as their first language I'm normally pretty sensitive to seeing it and where it can cause disagreement.
I think I understand your position a little more now, you agree its an issue that should be addressed and in your opinion its something which does not require preference over any other issue. You would feel the same were the same issue be prevalent on "your" playthrough.
Thank you for your understanding. I grew up in a big european city that is well known for it's LGBT community. LGBT people all over the world and country move to this city to live here. I had gay neighbours, LGBT people in school and my driving teacher was gay. All ever saw were totally normal people to me. I know a lesbian that is one of the most awesome persons I ever met and one lesbian that is one of the most annoying one lol
And you are right, the issue is as important to me as if the straight sex options were missing. Something that should be fixed as it doesn't feel right. I am also bummed because of the content differences in amounts of partner/ dialogue/ sex scene length and censorship.
But there seems to be a bigger issue here than just missing content and i start to see that now.
What was wrong with Bull's reaction? He only gets upset if you call Krem a woman.
Cornbread78
Member
My biddy, who has never played MA before is buying the game just because he was interested in the game having planned out gay and lesbian shipping options.
I'm interested in his reactions to the writing..
I'm interested in his reactions to the writing..
Ryder: Space, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the starship Tempest. Its five-year mission: to explore strange new Gaylien worlds, to seek out new Gaylien life and civilizations, to boldly go where no gay dude has gone before.
Surely this must be what they have planned for the sequel if it gets one.
Apart from the asari.
Except it's not really gay because they're not actually women.
-_-
I did not finish Horizon yet, but when I met Janeva I thought him/her were in something like a Disneys Mulan situation. Did the character clarify that somehow?
I kinda thought this meant that someone pretended to be part of a certain gender in order to be able to have gender exclusive job.
The part about Andromeda in Lauras article really shows that they got someone to write that part who didn't know much about LGBT. I grew up in a LGBT city and didn't know about deadnaming. Are many people mad about this?
Frankly, I found it a bit too forced and preachy, especially for a character as usually laid back as the Bull. It felt, to me, almost as if the writer was breaking the fourth wall and directly telling the player "Krem's a trans man, and there's nothing wrong with that!". Yeah, thanks, no need for you to tell me. I know, and agree. Conversely, people who don't will probably just laugh at it all.
I can conceive of no other possible direction for this franchise to go.
It's honestly inevitable.
broscientific
Member
I apologize if I misconstrued your words or if my post came across as attacking. I guess I just see lumping this problem in with the larger issues of the game as a dismissal of the problem. I do think this whole thing stems from the game's development woes but what troubles me especially is why of all things, Bioware decided they could half ass this aspect of the game. I guess we'll see as more people play it how unique of an issue it is or if all of the character related dialogue or gameplay systems suffer. Finally, just to address what may seem like people attacking you or feeling very strongly: consider that in recent memory gay options in video games have been lacking. Anecdotally I do not think video games as a hobby is uncommon or rare amongst gay people. So when a series which had been on the right path in terms of inclusivity takes a step backwards it's upsetting and possibly even a little emotional for some people, self included to a degree, hence the strong response from people in this thread.
10 posts above yours Flutter, they've apologised
I'm not sure we'll ever know the true reason, but I never imagined that for all their faults Bioware would shy away from something because its "more taboo" or that they feared for their ratings.
The only reason which seems to make sense to me is that its simply down to their direction, other things were more important for them and they had neither the skill or resources to "finish the job". Perhaps metrics showed that the gay male play-through was the one they could spend less resources on and subsequently we end up with what is presented. Whatever the reason its saddening that this is the choice they made, especially so given the "extra effort" they have seemingly spent on other playthroughs.
Or you could take it as Bull being protective of his crew. It's pretty clear that they're basically family.
It actually felt perfectly in character for Bull. He loved the Chargers, and even tries to teach you to learn about your soldiers the same way. You insulted one of them, and he called you out on it because his character was never one to put up with any bullshit about his men.
If you knew and agreed, then why did you say that to him?
I did! In fact, when the moment came to make that choice, I didn't even think twice. Just would've preferred a subtler approach, especially for a character like the Iron Bull.
Kain-Nosgoth
Member
Is it really a problem? You always have to go out of character if you want a platinum trophy.... like go good or bad route, being faithfull or dating all characters available...
We can argue that they didn't handle the relationship themselves that well, i don't know, didn't played the game, but there's still two gay relationship available! Games that allow that are pretty rare!
i'm not defending bioware, i still laugh everyday from the gif in the other thread, but here i don't see the problem if it's just to get a platinum
We can argue that they didn't handle the relationship themselves that well, i don't know, didn't played the game, but there's still two gay relationship available! Games that allow that are pretty rare!
i'm not defending bioware, i still laugh everyday from the gif in the other thread, but here i don't see the problem if it's just to get a platinum
You should probably read the rest of the thread then. The achievement itself isn't the whole issue. The gay romance options are with create a character ones, not even unique people. And their sex scenes are fade to black while any non M/M ones have a lot of detail and show a good bit of nudity.
Shut up. I'm straight, I just don't say dumb things
Mergesort came back and apologised, and with some class since they took the time to do so individually...
post 512, just up there ^^^
And like Ketkat says, you should really spend some more time reading the thread.
In an amusing turn of events, Jaal's romance might be bugged for Sara atm.
Might be. Data is scant.
But the Prima Guide says that during the first conversation there should be a flirt option.
There is no flirt option.
Is this why all these people who are trying to romance Jaal as Sara are saying "it's really hard to romance Jaal, still trying lol"?
And because the devs have maintained strict radio silence on anything and everything to do with Jaal, they have no idea this is a problem, because fans don't realise it's not actually meant to be playing out like this?
And it also makes sense of the mysterious anonymous dev reply last night who confirmed Jaal was straight once and for all, who apparently said "Jaal is meant to turn Scott down." Scott doesn't have any flirts with him, so there's nothing to turn down.
So, maybe there is meant to be a flirt there for both of them. One for Jaal to turn down Scott with, and one to initiate the chain of future flirts to start Sara's romance.
Oh god. It's almost beautiful.
Edit: oh, seeing some people saying the romance is working okay for Sara. Idk. That flirt isn't there though.
Might be. Data is scant.
But the Prima Guide says that during the first conversation there should be a flirt option.
There is no flirt option.
Is this why all these people who are trying to romance Jaal as Sara are saying "it's really hard to romance Jaal, still trying lol"?
And because the devs have maintained strict radio silence on anything and everything to do with Jaal, they have no idea this is a problem, because fans don't realise it's not actually meant to be playing out like this?
And it also makes sense of the mysterious anonymous dev reply last night who confirmed Jaal was straight once and for all, who apparently said "Jaal is meant to turn Scott down." Scott doesn't have any flirts with him, so there's nothing to turn down.
So, maybe there is meant to be a flirt there for both of them. One for Jaal to turn down Scott with, and one to initiate the chain of future flirts to start Sara's romance.
Oh god. It's almost beautiful.
Edit: oh, seeing some people saying the romance is working okay for Sara. Idk. That flirt isn't there though.
Kain-Nosgoth
Member
thanks, yeah from what i read, this is pretty bad! the only thing i thought they would do well, and even that, they fucked it up
No worries, and it does seem that way :/
Still really stupid to say that shit my lord...