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Mass Effect Andromeda's poor handling of LGBT

You're being a little unfair. I specifically said it was okay for people to raise their concerns, even though I personally would probably disagree with some of the complaints. It's bad writing (again, this is Bioware), but I think it came from a decent place, and that's my argument. We aren't talking about another character trying to shame or remove this trans character's actual identity -- traditional deadnaming -- it's just that character talking about their own history in a clumsy way. You might find it extremely unlikely, and that's fine, but that doesn't inherently make it wrong or transphobic.

As it's been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, trans identity has meant different things in different cultures and at other points in history. And (as I mentioned) some trans people today are more okay with this sort of thing than others. I mean no insult, but your feelings aren't as universal as you seem to think, even outside of some crazy sci-fi fantasy setting. (This is true of all our feelings, we all do this.) I'm only bringing up 'history' as a counter-point to the idea that your feelings represent some universality. I think the important aspect here comes down to the admittedly murky area of intent, and I don't see any malice or cruelty in what Bioware was attempting.

Honestly the most unlikely thing here is that the character would have an old name to begin with, or that the Mass Effect universe would even possess binary gender definitions. (Even having bodies period is kind of unlikely.) But Bioware has always been shitty at world building, and in their defense the market might not be particularly receptive to them going all posthuman.

(Just talking about the trans stuff here.)

(PS: There was textual stuff to suggest Dumbledore was gay, there was always a hint, though I'd agree it was very subtle.)

There have been a lot of trans people in this thread who completely disagree with your assessment (either directly or indirectly), especially the notion that it's a fairer assumption that the setting invited the use of the deadname as opposed to ignorance among the writers. I've also seen people cite the fact that there exist trans people who trick cis people into having sex with them as a defense for the character in Catherine, and that was no less transphobic for that fact.
 

Sai-kun

Banned
Mergesort, you have literally zero evidence that more m/m romances just 'didn't make it in time'. I think your fanboyism is blinding you. You seem to be taking this criticism very personally.
 
Please stop policing actual gay men's reactions.

This, so much.

Once again, it's not that it's a malicious attack. What we're saying is that it was a purposeful decision at some point, probably made partially based on the thought that including m/m romance options is not a priority, which is a huge slap in the face given Bioware's history and also given the lack of representation in gaming in general. It's a step in the wrong direction, that's why people are upset.

This, so much.
 

TLS Lex

Member
I'm pissed about the no squadmate thing if true. That's a massive step down from Kaidan/ Cortez in ME3 and Dorian/ Bull in Inquisition. Half the fun is going out to battle/explore and hearing the romance banter, it's what makes it really feel like part of the experience. The fact that this won't be present at all for me kinda sucks.

Small consolation is that Gil is voiced by Gethin Anthony (aka Renly Baratheon) so I can at least imagine this face:

tumblr_mu8n8rRW9U1se3o87o1_500.gif
 
Haha you can't see my face right now, but I am not angry at all^^
The criticism is valid, as this is a bug that needs to be fixed. You say nobody is talking about them being anti-LBGT and at the same time say they were lazy and ignorant. Them being lazy about it would mean being anti-LBGT. In my option that probably isn't true. I imagine the devs as hardworking people that worked their ass off for 5 years to make this game. They probably need one or two more, but that wasn't their decision. The people who worked at the love-partner-system probably wanted to include all possible options, they just didn't make it in time. That's true for many things in this game. And yes I feel like it should be patched into the game.

And as to where this is coming from, I don't know for sure, but I would bet it's because of deadlines and mismanagement and most likely not the dev working on it.

No it wouldn't. Like, I can actually say, unequivocally, that ignorance is not at all indicative of a person or entity being anti-LGBT. That doesn't even make sense. It can be a root cause of why someone is anti-LGBT, but ignorance means that they don't even understand that what they're doing is (in the case of the trans character) transphobic. You keep framing the criticism as being only valid if BioWare's goals were hate, when simple ignorance and poor priorities can suffice.

This, so much.



This, so much.

And yes, people are being really cavalier about speaking for LGBT people or talking down to LGBT people for the reactions that they have, especially about the deadnaming shit.
 

Mergesort

Member
What post made you think this was something anyone believed?

Posts like these -->

you're right, it's crazy that lgbt people, and gay men/trans people in particular, might take ignorant/shoddy representations of themselves personally

totally wack. cmon queers, lets get back to our den of iniquity.

Yes, it is crazy to me as it should be normal that they are represented correctly. So, if they are not represented correctly that must be a bug! A bug that should be fixed. If the game missed any straight options it would be nothing more than a bug to me. I would contact bioware, tell them about the bug and wait for the fix. At this point we really need input from bioware! If this was on purpose it would be utterly unacceptable and should be called out.

Please stop policing actual gay men's reactions. Once again, it's not that it's a malicious attack. What we're saying is that it was a purposeful decision at some point, probably made partially based on the thought that including m/m romance options is not a priority, which is a huge slap in the face given Bioware's history and also given the lack of representation in gaming in general. It's a step in the wrong direction, that's why people are upset.

Saying m/m interactions were not a priority would be unacceptable. And I really don't mean to shut anybody up, but I feel much of the hate is flowing towards the devs and not management/EA. That isn't really fair in my eyes.
 
Posts like these -->



Yes, it is crazy to me as it should be normal that they are represented correctly. So, if they are not represented correctly that must be a bug! A bug that should be fixed. If the game missed any straight options it would be nothing more than a bug to me. I would contact bioware, tell them about the bug and wait for the fix. At this point we really need input from bioware! If this was on purpose it would be utterly unacceptable and should be called out.



Saying m/m interactions were not a priority would be unacceptable. And I really don't mean to shut anybody up, but I feel much of the hate is flowing towards the devs and not management/EA. That isn't really fair in my eyes.

Sai-kun was making fun of you, not BioWare, for your reactionary approach to the criticisms BW has been receiving.
 

DemWalls

Member
And so, today I learn what deadnaming is. Interesting. May prove useful in the future.

EDIT: Reading that again, it doesn't sound too well :lol:
Just to be clear, I mean nothing harmful.
 

TLS Lex

Member
Anyone think it's possible that the seventh male squadmate that ended up being cut in development was the one meant for Scott?
 

Harlequin

Member
Anyone think it's possible that the seventh male squadmate that ended up being cut in development was the one meant for Scott?

Possible though data miners found a lot of Scott/Jaal romance lines in the game's files, too, (which apparently aren't actually used in the game) which would suggest that, at least at some point during development, Jaal was probably bi. But who knows, maybe there's another reason for that stuff being in there.
 
Saying m/m interactions were not a priority would be unacceptable. And I really don't mean to shut anybody up, but I feel much of the hate is flowing towards the devs and not management/EA. That isn't really fair in my eyes.

Respectfully, I don't see where people are making distinction between the devs and EA or management. If anything people ARE talking about management because we're specifically talking about the decision to deprioritize options for gay Ryders.
 

Septimius

Junior Member
Edit: Withdrawn as I gather more info. I thought the achievement was unaccessible due to no male Asaris but I think I've misunderstood.
 

Platy

Member
I've also seen people cite the fact that there exist trans people who trick cis people into having sex with them as a defense for the character in Catherine, and that was no less transphobic for that fact.

I have no problem with that fact from Catherine .. what I have the problem is the literal word of god saying that she is a man
 

Mergesort

Member
Mergesort, you have literally zero evidence that more m/m romances just 'didn't make it in time'. I think your fanboyism is blinding you. You seem to be taking this criticism very personally.

You are right, I don't have any evidence at all about how this part of the game was planned/made and who made the decisions. "didn't make it in time" was just a theory by me, I am no a dev, I don't know how development really works. I am not a fanboy either lol
Bioware really deserves a lot of the criticism it gets. I am not trying to defend them, they did fuck up, but I also think that most people at bioware are not at fault.

BTW, do we have any statement by bioware on this matter?

Sai-kun was making fun of you, not BioWare, for your reactionary approach to the criticisms BW has been receiving.

Yeah, I get it, all I am is a dumb bioware fanboy defending them.
 
You are right, I don't have any evidence at all about how this part of the game was planned/made and who made the decisions. "didn't make it in time" was just a theory by me, I am no a dev, I don't know how development really works. I am not a fanboy either lol
Bioware really deserves a lot of the criticism it gets. I am not trying to defend them, they did fuck up, but I also think that most people at bioware are not at fault.

BTW, do we have any statement by bioware on this matter?



Yeah, I get it, all I am is a dumb bioware fanboy defending them.

That's the easiest conclusion given that your reaction to "look at this bad thing that happened with BioWare's game" is to get really frustrated and annoyed that the criticism exists, and with you explaining what constitutes being anti-LGBT to LGBT people.
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Even if the thing itself is clumsy, or reductive, or inaccurate, there is a lot to be said for the effort - maybe this time the subject is handled imperfectly, but even that builds a foundation for the next attempt, and the ones to follow.

Movies at the beginning of that industry handled a lot of things clumsily. But as better and better filmmakers created solutions, and techniques and even tropes, the handling of all subjects, from romance to car chases, became better and better. We're at the point now in movies, where a poorly handled subject, like the one this thread is about, have fewer excuses. It still happens, but filmmakers have a wealth of approaches to emulate or be inspired by. And critics have a vast trove of better examples to point to and compare.

Video games have been around for forty years, but their abnility to even remotely represent realistic people, is fairly nascent. But it's evolving, and this is not a step backwards, it's a well-intenioned effort that will directly affect better representations in the future.
 
Even if the thing itself is clumsy, or reductive, or inaccurate, there is a lot to be said for the effort - maybe this time the subject is handled imperfectly, but even that builds a foundation for the next attempt, and the ones to follow.

Movies at the beginning of that industry handled a lot of things clumsily. But as better and better filmmakers created solutions, and techniques and even tropes, the handling of all subjects, from romance to car chases, became better and better. We're at the point now in movies, where a poorly handled subject, like the one this thread is about, have fewer excuses. It still happens, but filmmakers have a wealth of approaches to emulate or be inspired by. And critics have a vast trove of better examples to point to and compare.

Video games have been around for forty years, but their abnility to even remotely represent realistic people, is fairly nascent. But it's evolving, and this is not a step backwards, it's a well-intenioned effort that will directly affect better representations in the future.

Very few people disagree with you in this thread. But the change comes through criticism - if criticism is not made, they will never know that they did a bad job. Not sure if you're making that argument, but figured I'd make this post for good measure.

I have no problem with that fact from Catherine .. what I have the problem is the literal word of god saying that she is a man

That's definitely a problem, though I personally feel that the character doing what she did and bragging about it is a negative stereotype that is all too commonly perpetuated. It can happen in real life, but in fiction, it happens way more often than it actually does.
 

Mergesort

Member
Respectfully, I don't see where people are making distinction between the devs and EA or management. If anything people ARE talking about management because we're specifically talking about the decision to deprioritize options for gay Ryders.

Most did not make a distinction between Bioware management and Bioware devs, I might have read to much into it. Most people write "Bioware" and only mean like 10% of the people at Bioware. Just wanted to make sure that the right people get criticized.
 

Ketkat

Member
I have no problem with that fact from Catherine .. what I have the problem is the literal word of god saying that she is a man

Did they really say that? I remember getting that vibe from the game after she slept with a literal virgin who then commented about "something felt off."
 

Sai-kun

Banned
You are right, I don't have any evidence at all about how this part of the game was planned/made and who made the decisions. "didn't make it in time" was just a theory by me, I am no a dev, I don't know how development really works. I am not a fanboy either lol
Bioware really deserves a lot of the criticism it gets. I am not trying to defend them, they did fuck up, but I also think that most people at bioware are not at fault.

BTW, do we have any statement by bioware on this matter?

bruh

wut
 
Did they really say that? I remember getting that vibe from the game after she slept with a literal virgin who then commented about "something felt off."

Oh wow, I hadn't even thought about that. Yeah, that's some pretty gross shit lol. It directly suggests an inherent un-womanly nature to the character.
 
I'll never understand peoples obsessions with sex in Bioware games.

They're the most relevant developer including many choices of romantic relationship arcs in their games, so they are held to a high standard in that regard. It's really simple. In wanting to have a say in what representation lgbt has in Bioware games, there's the hope of them becoming a barometer to steer the rest of the industry for better representation too.

I think it's fair to say that having gay relationships in Bioware games has done wonders for many lgbt people and pushed representation in other games too.
 

Peltz

Member
No but if you play a character as gay male you cannot get the trophy for 3 different romances as that scenario only gives you 2 options

The game awards having multiple romances in the first place?

No one else thinks that's... oh I don't know... fucking stupid? That's some objectification right there.
 

Platy

Member
Did they really say that? I remember getting that vibe from the game after she slept with a literal virgin who then commented about "something felt off."

I was talking about the fact that
she had the nightmares
and how everything was handled, but yeah that part you said totally didn't helped
 

Mergesort

Member
That's the easiest conclusion given that your reaction to "look at this bad thing that happened with BioWare's game" is to get really frustrated and annoyed that the criticism exists, and with you explaining what constitutes being anti-LGBT to LGBT people.

What a certain group of people consider offensive is sometimes not obvious to others. My point was that it is indeed deserved criticism, but is not more or less important as any other bug and issue in the game. It definitely needs fixing. It ist just my opinion.
 
What a certain group of people consider offensive is sometimes not obvious to others. My point was that it is indeed deserved criticism, but is not more or less important as any other bug and issue in the game. It definitely needs fixing. It ist just my opinion.

...Okay? No one is getting upset about the animations thread because they did a poor job with LGBT content. Why are you coming into this thread and downplaying the complaints against BioWare? Why aren't you pointing out that people are generally criticizing all of BioWare for the poor animations? I'm pretty sure that most people aren't responsible for that issue as well. Have you made a similar post in that thread that you're making here?
 

Lamptramp

Member
Yes, it is crazy to me as it should be normal that they are represented correctly. So, if they are not represented correctly that must be a bug! A bug that should be fixed. If the game missed any straight options it would be nothing more than a bug to me. I would contact bioware, tell them about the bug and wait for the fix. At this point we really need input from bioware! If this was on purpose it would be utterly unacceptable and should be called out.

Saying m/m interactions were not a priority would be unacceptable. And I really don't mean to shut anybody up, but I feel much of the hate is flowing towards the devs and not management/EA. That isn't really fair in my eyes.

I don't think you're doing yourself any favours here Meresort by constantly referring to the issues as a "Bug", as most would understand it a "bug" would be something like a door not opening to progress story or a character holding a gun backwards. Something within the code of the game that for one reason or another does not work as planned or an unforeseen error, some simple work within the code would return things to normal.

Clearly not having a gay partner as a squadmate or not putting the animation effort into romance cutscenes isn't a bug it's a design decision, no amount of fixes to code would magically make these things appear. (NotaDev) :)
I agree that the design decision was not a decision made out of malice (seemingly as do the majority of the rest of the thread) but it was a decision that was made by "Bioware" and in making that decision they have made it clear that it was not important enough to them to spend resources to create. Clearly aspects were less important to them than the well animated scenes for
Cora & Peebee
.

Again I don't think people would seriously argue that was a decision made as a big "Up yours" to the community as a whole but its a decision which has marginalised a segment of that community and Bioware totally deserve criticism about it, and those most affected have every right to be disappointed and even angry at that decision.

As to your other point, who knows ultimately where the decision was made but the team worked together and its never helpful to single anyone out, as recent years have proven. Its Bioware's Name on the box it was a Bioware choice, not a bug or oversight a choice.
 

Eumi

Member
What a certain group of people consider offensive is sometimes not obvious to others. My point was that it is indeed deserved criticism, but is not more or less important as any other bug and issue in the game. It definitely needs fixing. It ist just my opinion.
Were you expecting people to be talking about things other than the issues with LGBT representation in the issues with LGBT representation thread?

The other issues have been discussed for weeks, and are still being discussed right now. Hell, I go on twitter and it's just full of gifs of poor animations.

This thread is actually the only place I've seen it being discussed. What exactly is your reason for coming in here and disrupting discussion with this?

We know the game has other issues. This thread was not created to discuss them, and so that's not what it's being used for.
 

mantidor

Member
Every trans person I know (ok one acquaintance) deadnames occasionally about themselves, but yeah it's weird if you tell some stranger.

But it's just weird, I don't see it as problematic. What would be a good way to let people know a minor character is trans? Because it seems the only way is to not tell at all.
 

Mergesort

Member
Not yet. That typically happens after widespread criticism, not before.

Isn't there a shitstorm raging since the release of the trial? I really expected them to say at least something by now. Fuck, whenever something like this happens I hope that sales are shit, they fix things and sale go back up. Wishful thinking I guess, they probably got enough money from preorders and first day sales.
 

Harlequin

Member
What a certain group of people consider offensive is sometimes not obvious to others. My point was that it is indeed deserved criticism, but is not more or less important as any other bug and issue in the game. It definitely needs fixing. It ist just my opinion.

But not only do we not know whether this was the result of time constraints/development issues and whether they actually would've included more M/M romances if they'd had more time (while you act as if that was a fact by constantly calling it a "bug" without acknowledging that, for all we know, they may not have intended to include more than what we've got with regards to M/M romances), they apparently had the time to give straight Scott five romances, some of which are ridiculously long and detailed compared to either of the M/M romances, and gay Sara four romances. If this whole thing truly is about time constraints, then that will at the very least tell you sth about their priorities if they took the time to give Scott five straight romances but couldn't find the time to bring even just one of his gay romances up-to-par. Again, this whole thing makes it feel like M/M content was little more than an afterthought to them and it shows in the quality and quantity of the content.
 
Every trans person I know (ok one acquaintance) deadnames occasionally about themselves, but yeah it's weird if you tell some stranger.

But it's just weird, I don't see it as problematic. What would be a good way to let people know a minor character is trans? Because it seems the only way is to not tell at all.

Deadnaming is never a good way to introduce a trans character, because that's not how trans people introduce themselves - "deadname" is named the way it is for a reason.
 

frontovik

Banned
Hasn't the Mass Effect series shifted into more of an 'FPS' game than a sci-fi adventure? Romance is likely a sideline as far as the developers are concerned.
 

mantidor

Member
Deadnaming is never a good way to introduce a trans character, because that's not how trans people introduce themselves - "deadname" is named the way it is for a reason.

That's why I asked about what alternatives there are, it's obvious for me this was the way for Bioware to introduce a minor trans character.

Of course you have much more organic and well, logical ways to introduce main trans characters, which would be rad, but until someone does such awesome game, what are other ways to introduce a minor trans character? As I said, it seems there is no way at all.
 

Burbeting

Banned
That's why I asked about what alternatives there are, it's obvious for me this was the way for Bioware to introduce a minor trans character.

Of course you have much more organic and well, logical ways to introduce main trans characters, which would be rad, but until someone does such awesome game, what are other ways to introduce a minor trans character? As I said, it seems there is no way at all.

They could have managed at least as much as DA:I did in terms of trans representation.
 
That's why I asked about what alternatives there are, it's obvious for me this was the way for Bioware to introduce a minor trans character.

Of course you have much more organic and well, logical ways to introduce main trans characters, which would be rad, but until someone does such awesome game, what are other ways to introduce a minor trans character? As I said, it seems there is no way at all.

Someone pointed out that the character could have alluded to being trans. It's really not that hard. There's also something to be said about a character designed to be trans and not have that define their character, or hell, even mention it. That's not the only way to go about it - otherwise trans characters would go unnoticed - but there are much, much better ways than someone abruptly bringing up their deadname.
 

Maledict

Member
What a certain group of people consider offensive is sometimes not obvious to others. My point was that it is indeed deserved criticism, but is not more or less important as any other bug and issue in the game. It definitely needs fixing. It ist just my opinion.

Sop fucking calling it a bug.

A bug is a piece of coding that goes wrong. It's a dumb face that doesn't work, or a cutscene where the lighting is off, or where people zoom across the screen at 10000 miles an hour.

this is not a bug. It's a decision that was baked into the game very early on (literally, months and months and months ago) when voice acting lines were done. It's not something that was scrimped on because of "cost" or "time", it was a *choice* by Bioware. and it's a poor choice that marks a significant step backwards from their previous games and what they have said on the topic.

You would get a lot more respect from people if you tried to understand this isn't the same as someones face going wonky, it isn't a bug, it was a design decision for the game that was made ages ago.
 
I mean it's obvious part of the backtrack was the shift to another studio who apparently cut corners in many aspects. It's just a shame that they couldn't bother to voice a few more lines of dialogue. Dragon Age handled it pretty well (one of the few things I commend it on). There were characters you could not romance because they were not gay, but they didn't relegate it to sone non cast mate
 

Lamptramp

Member
That's why I asked about what alternatives there are, it's obvious for me this was the way for Bioware to introduce a minor trans character.

Of course you have much more organic and well, logical ways to introduce main trans characters, which would be rad, but until someone does such awesome game, what are other ways to introduce a minor trans character? As I said, it seems there is no way at all.

They managed pretty well in DA:I
 
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