Could have theoretically been an asexual M/M romance but yeah, I don't think it's very likely.
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Mass Effect Andromeda's poor handling of LGBT
- Thread starter Burbeting
- Start date
Could have theoretically been an asexual M/M romance but yeah, I don't think it's very likely.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I'll ask again Mergesoft: have you, in the animation thread, made similar complaints that you are making here, that people are blaming all BioWare employees for the animation issues?
Man Called Aerodynamics
Member
This is a great way to put it. Just because BioWare has a better track record on this issue than most devs, is not a reason not to continue to hold them to the highest standards. And recognizing their mistakes is how we do that.
broscientific
Member
But some people do think it's an important issue. Personally as a gay man I am more offended by this. Especially considering this is a more "fixable problem" namely by including more content, whereas jank animations are likely to be a more systemic issue. It's fine if your personal opinion is that the other problems of this game are more important; I expect most non-LGBT people feel this way and even many LGBT people as well. But most people are attacking you for defending Bioware in part because you're diminishing our ability to criticize them for this. In short, if your personal opinion is that they have bigger problems than this, that's fine, but please dont come into this thread telling people not to see this as an issue.
excelsiorlef
Member
Some trans people never want to hear their old name again, some people it takes years to get comfortable to mention it, some will only tell friends after they've really gotten to know them...
Very few just throw it out there as soon as you meet them...
I mean the fact that there is literally a word for a trans person's old name.. and the fact that that word is deadname maybe should be a hint that in the community our old names are not candy we like to just give out to every Tom, Dick, Harry or Suzie like it's Halloween.
MisterShine
Member
If they're going to do a trans character it should be a squadmate or a major NPC like one of your crew, somebody who is designed to be poked and prodded by the player if they so choose to get to know them. That would actually make proper sense for why this character would tell you. Even Krem in Inquisition was pretty good and you don't talk to him even that many times, it only comes up if you inquire specifically. No one cares in that world.
edit: Also just found out apparently Jaal isn't a M/M option despite there being datamined info and files that he would be? That is just weird. For a series that already took flak (rightfully) in ME1 & 2 about no gay male romances, you'd think that would be the first thing they got right in Andromeda.
OK, I get it. This is a very very big issue for some people. They take it very seriously and very personally.
I did not come into this thread to downplay anything, even if it might sound so to some people. I did not mean to offend anyone. I want this issue fixed as much as most people in this thread. I guess as a straight person I am not welcome here, so i take my leave.
I did not come into this thread to downplay anything, even if it might sound so to some people. I did not mean to offend anyone. I want this issue fixed as much as most people in this thread. I guess as a straight person I am not welcome here, so i take my leave.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Um, I appreciate the insight, but there are a lot of straight people in this thread. People are criticizing what you're saying, not who you are.
broscientific
Member
I mean, it's just a discussion. But if you want to make a fine post and just tack on a sentence like that to play victim, I guess that's your perogative.
Question about deadnaming, it is always bad that a trans person refer to their born name?
Like in this case I could see why it's a problem, the fact that she mentions her deadname at the first time meeting her really feels like something weird to do just to check a box.
But like, could a trans person refer to her/his deadname in the context of telling their past or something like that? because with the examples cited on the op I can't see how she is dead naming since she is telling her past (albeit like I said, is still a weird way to introduce oneself
Like in this case I could see why it's a problem, the fact that she mentions her deadname at the first time meeting her really feels like something weird to do just to check a box.
But like, could a trans person refer to her/his deadname in the context of telling their past or something like that? because with the examples cited on the op I can't see how she is dead naming since she is telling her past (albeit like I said, is still a weird way to introduce oneself
Dunno if you're still reading the thread but no one here knew your sexuality.
Please don't make issues like this a straight vs LGBT thing.
A Link to the Past
Banned
This isn't a trans person, she's a trans character. A trans person who uses their deadname is not wrong to have done so, but reality does not justify it happening in a video game. It's very rare that a trans person would deadname themselves. It can and does happen (I know someone who is fine with her deadname), but it's just like the difference between a person being sexual and a character being sexual. It's usually done very poorly when it's a character, but standards are not universal for media and reality.
And of course you gotta huff and puff with a big insincere apology
I don't have any personal experience on the subject but others have already discussed it in this thread:
sounds like someone's desperate to be oppressed but okay
I've done it occasionally. I've found it difficult to reference certain events before my 24th due to the ties some of them have to my old name (as an example, my landmark legal action for medical malpractice remains in my old name and is referenced as such in legal documents). I don't even really refer to it as a dead name, there's just something I never liked about the phrase.
I am only speaking for myself, though.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Yep.
"Here are my views and opinions"
"Your views and opinions are problematic"
"I guess that's what I get for being straight"
That is a real unpleasant way to end that statement Mergesort
straight people are fine. shitty opinions aren't.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I wanted to replace the third mock-quotation with "So much for the tolerant left," but that carries some pretty heavy implications that I'm not comfortable applying to anyone in this thread lol
No, I don't think so, I think I complained mostly about the bad animation and making suggestions for how to fix them. I was pretty unhappy that some people started blaming one person for the bad animation who in the end wasn't even part of the team irrc. I did not comment on it as everyone else in the thread were ripping them apart by the time I wanted to post something. But there were a few people throwing shit at the animators. I ways mainly talking about how to fix how the faces looked and the bad animation.
How it was? I'll be honest I don't even know what DA:I means.
Ooh dragon age? I guess
I do understand, but it's obviously ignorance rather than being mean spirited.
As someone said above, I do think the only way to have good trans characters is for them to be main characters, for a character that has three lines it just isn't possible.
A Link to the Past
Banned
So I guess you could say that you took more umbrage when it happened in this thread (specifically no one actually blamed anyone outside of the writers for the transphobic scene so it didn't really happen at all) than when it happened in the other thread?
How it was? I'll be honest I don't even know what DA:I means.
Ooh dragon age? I guess
Dragon Age: Inquisition has a trans male character called Krem, who is part of a mercenary group. His being trans comes up pretty naturally in conversation and is dealt with nicely. The only cringey bits are when your character has the opportunity to ask some dumb-ass questions but the other characters put you in your place so it just comes off more as an ignorant person being educated. Krem is an amazing character AND he's voiced by Jennifer Hale so he's just perfection all around tbh <3
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Oh, shit. We can't hang because we're straight? 🤔
The Dark Shape
Neo Member
It's an achievement that spans multiple playthroughs. You can't play one of them as a Ryder with a different sexual orientation from you?
I'm a straight male. My Sara Ryder is romancing a guy. It's a story.
I'm a straight male. My Sara Ryder is romancing a guy. It's a story.
How it was? I'll be honest I don't even know what DA:I means.
Ooh dragon age? I guess
Yeah Dragon Age Inquisition (another Bioware game)
Side character called "Krem". Again Side character, and not one that's shoved down your throat or one with a massive amount of lines if memory serves.
I'd rather not say any more in case you want to play yourself but certainly there is info there if you chose to search it out.
You must've at least sucked another guy off once to enter.
/s
EDIT: Or eaten out another woman if you're a woman, obviously.
Poor GRIMES
Banned
Lol that is the shittiest possible way to end your "apology." "Sorry! Guess yall don't want any straight people around here!"
The problem with your statements isn't your sexual preference.
broscientific
Member
For the sake of introducing something new to this thread discussion I'll bring up something that was briefly mentioned a few pages back but I don't think many discussed it.
Several of the actual romance scenes are now on YouTube. I have to preface this by saying that I really don't care about the quality of the romance scenes in general, especially given the reputation they have in Bioware games, but there have been comments from devs that the scenes are a little more than just the "body laying on top of body" that we've seen in the past. Given that there aren't many depictions of gay romance physically in media and certainly not in video games I was curious how they would handle it in this game, so I watched what people have uploaded.
Without going into detail it was pretty disappointing to see the amount of effort put into a scene between Scott Ryder and a female human vs. Scott Ryder and a man, namely the fact that in the latter, the game fades to black basically as the characters start kissing-
In the former there actual shots of characters faces, asses, etc.
Do you guys think there is a separate reason for this, i.e. seeing gay sex as even more mature/taboo than heterosexual sex? Or maybe more likely, it's just another symptom of the oversight that gave us 2 underdeveloped romance plots?
Several of the actual romance scenes are now on YouTube. I have to preface this by saying that I really don't care about the quality of the romance scenes in general, especially given the reputation they have in Bioware games, but there have been comments from devs that the scenes are a little more than just the "body laying on top of body" that we've seen in the past. Given that there aren't many depictions of gay romance physically in media and certainly not in video games I was curious how they would handle it in this game, so I watched what people have uploaded.
Without going into detail it was pretty disappointing to see the amount of effort put into a scene between Scott Ryder and a female human vs. Scott Ryder and a man, namely the fact that in the latter, the game fades to black basically as the characters start kissing-
In the former there actual shots of characters faces, asses, etc.
Do you guys think there is a separate reason for this, i.e. seeing gay sex as even more mature/taboo than heterosexual sex? Or maybe more likely, it's just another symptom of the oversight that gave us 2 underdeveloped romance plots?
Brushguy Woodthreep
Member
Sure, but you only have to do that if you're a gay male. All the other gender combos, you can stick to whichever you like.
EDIT: Also it's not just about the achievement, but about the quality and depth of the m/m romances compared to the others. Read the discussion.
excelsiorlef
Member
This was close to a good come to an understanding post until you made it about how you as a straight person are being victimized in this thread
clem84
Gold Member
I'm joining the discussion late so sorry if this has been said already.
Unless of course if as soon as you pursue a gay romance, the game locks you as a gay character and you cannot pursue a straight romance? It would be short sighted of the devs to have done that.
Then do 2 gay romances and 1 straight? Will that be such a big problem for gay male players? I'm a straight male and I wouldn't mind playing as a gay character just to get a trophy... If I cared about that sort of thing.
Unless of course if as soon as you pursue a gay romance, the game locks you as a gay character and you cannot pursue a straight romance? It would be short sighted of the devs to have done that.
John Kowalski
Banned
How many % you are willing to love a man is how many % you are allowed to hang over Δ time
broscientific
Member
The issue is that gay men are the only orientation represented that are required to play as a straight man or a woman to get the achievement.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Because that means the character isn't gay
The achievement is just one small issue of a larger problem.
excelsiorlef
Member
If it was true for all sexualities it wouldn't be that big a deal but every other orientation can get the trophy in one sitting except gay men. That's the problem
The Dark Shape
Neo Member
If BioWare's intention was to make the characters echo real life - some people are straight, some people are gay, some people are bi - someone was always going to have less love interests than the other orientations.
I guess my question is, are you mad because there are less gay options than straight/bi options, or mad that you can't get an achievement by exclusively playing gay characters?
Because if it's the former option, the answer would be to make every character bisexual so people can romance whoever they'd like, but BioWare already basically did that with Dragon Age II and people freaked. And it's the latter... I'm sorry, but again, based on BioWare's idea that characters should echo life and not "float" orientations, someone was always going to end up with less options.
That being said, I wish it was straight male Ryder with the least amount of options. I like the idea of a progressive galaxy.
Well firstly, doing both gay and straight romances would indicate the character is no longer gay. He's bi. Which is different to gay. There's bi representation in the games already (bad representation, but it's there) but so far the representation of gay men is not only barely there, what is there is poorly done. Also I'm guessing that you as a straight man don't lack for representation.
Man Called Aerodynamics
Member
The achievement thing is not the problem itself; more just an unfortunate symptom of gay male role-players not having as many choices. That's my take anyway.
Laura Dale just wrote a great article on this subject, might be worthy of its own thread even:
http://www.polygon.com/2017/3/21/15004956/zelda-mass-effect-horizon-zero-dawn-trans-characters
She also points out that MEA is particularly frustrating given that the DAI team documented the process of creating their trans character.
http://www.polygon.com/2017/3/21/15004956/zelda-mass-effect-horizon-zero-dawn-trans-characters
She also points out that MEA is particularly frustrating given that the DAI team documented the process of creating their trans character.
It's about a lot of small things (most of which are mentioned in the OP), all of which make it seem like M/M romances were very much treated like an afterthought for this game. There are fewer of them, neither of the M/M characters is a squadmate - meaning they've got less overall dialogue, no loyalty missions, less relevance to the main story, etc., both of the characters have character creator faces rather than unique ones, their romance arcs are shorter and their "sex" scenes fade to black before anything explicit happens, unlike with many of the non-M/M romances. And the achievement thing is just the icing on the top, really.
TBH Clem it may behoove you to have a deeper scan of the thread, the achievement in and of itself is almost a "non-issue" (though thats not to say it isn't ridiculous) the main issue is the disparity in quality between the romance options for the different sexualities. Gay men do not have the option to romance a squad member at all and (loathe them or not) the "sex scenes" are nowhere near the same quality.
Brushguy Woodthreep
Member
Mostly I'm bothered that the only gay male romance options aren't as detailed as the best options available for all three other options. It seems that by comparison, they come across as an afterthought: no squadmate romances, no unique character designs, fade-to-black instead of detailed love scenes. In short, they put much less effort into the gay male options than all three other possibilities.
I expect fewer gay options, but I don't expect them to be lacking in attention to detail compared to the other options.
Secondarily, I'm bothered about the achievement thing... but personally it's not that big a deal to me, so someone else will have to answer that if they see fit.
Yeah, I'm agreeing with you. Even criticism of honest effort drives progress. Just that there's a lot they should be applauded for doing too.
excelsiorlef
Member
There is no by default for the pc...