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End-to-end encryption on messaging services is unacceptable: UK minister

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Jonnax

Member
British interior minister Amber Rudd said on Sunday end-to-end encryption of messages offered by services like Whatsapp are "completely unacceptable" and there should be no "secret place for terrorists to communicate".

Local media have reported that shortly before launching an attack that killed four people including a policeman near Britain's parliament in central London, Khalid Masood sent an encrypted message via Whatsapp.

"That is my view - it is completely unacceptable, there should be no place for terrorists to hide. We need to make sure organizations like Whatsapp, and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret place for terrorists to communicate with each other," Rudd told the BBC's Andrew Marr show.

"We need to make sure that our intelligence services have the ability to get into situations like encrypted Whatsapp."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-security-rudd-idUSKBN16X0BE

One of the great things about the EU is that idiots like this would get overruled.
So sadly shit like this from people too old to understand computers will pass once we're out.

Encryption is mathematics. Anyone can create an encryption app with some knowledge.
Making that illegal is the height of absolute stupidity.
 

-Plasma Reus-

Service guarantees member status
Khalid Masood sent an encrypted message via Whatsapp
Every message is encrypted in whatsapp.
She's trying to justify peeping into whatsapp messages.
How about getting a warrant if you suspect the person?
 

TheSeks

Blinded by the luminous glory that is David Bowie's physical manifestation.
"That is my view - it is completely unacceptable, there should be no place for terrorists to hide.

Privacy is a good thing. Even if it allows terrorists and undesirables to use it themselves, you moron.

God, the government(s) hate-boner for privacy is telling in the direction the world is going in.
 

Acorn

Member
The dead aren't even in the ground yet and they are using it to advance May's typical authoritarian bullshit.
 
I saw this coming from a mile off after BBC reported he used WhatsApp.

Theresa May can't wait to get hold of everyone's privacy and they'll use this to try their best.

If I sent someone a note with pen and paper telling to commit a heinous act, should we ban pen and paper?
 

Madness

Member
The UK is as big a nanny state as China. The difference is they pretend to do it for different reasons. Pretty soon if terrorists start hiding things in their ass, these people would ask us to bend over at airports so they can check.

Terrorists are always proactive. In the end, the average citizen suffers. Whatsapp being secure isn't what causes terror attacks. Remove the encyrption and they'll find something else while your personal communications are easily taken and monitored.
 

Corpsepyre

Banned
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it mentioned sometime back that the encryption was bullshit, and that the feds have an access to our messages?
 
They announced he was a lone wolf
Well was he or wasn't he?
If he was why are they worried about whatever he sexted or whatever it was.
 
I saw this coming from a mile off after BBC reported he used WhatsApp.

Theresa May can't wait to get hold of everyone's privacy and they'll use this to try their best.

If I sent someone a note with pen and paper telling to commit a heinous act, should we ban pen and paper?
No because they can read that easy enough. It's not about banning things like WhatsApp, they just want to be able to read people's messages at will.
 
No because they can read that easy enough. It's not about banning things like WhatsApp, they just want to be able to read people's messages at will.

I was more getting at the point that it's not the tools (encryption) that inherently evil but in the way those tools are used.
 

Heigic

Member
All that encryption does is prevent bulk collection. If they actually suspect someone they can get onto the phone using one of their dozen 0 day exploits and intercept the messages that way.
 

eizarus

Banned
They announced he was a lone wolf
Well was he or wasn't he?
If he was why are they worried about whatever he sexted or whatever it was.
The cops have announced that he was a lone wolf, but that won't stop the government using this to further their bullshits agenda, especially with that cunt May in charge.
 

Audioboxer

Member
I get why she is saying shit like this, but it's a completely unacceptable solution to a complex problem.

Besides this, the Tories have always been for peeling back all privacy. Proper Big Brother party.
 

Floex

Member
The UK is as big a nanny state as China. The difference is they pretend to do it for different reasons. Pretty soon if terrorists start hiding things in their ass, these people would ask us to bend over at airports so they can check.

Terrorists are always proactive. In the end, the average citizen suffers. Whatsapp being secure isn't what causes terror attacks. Remove the encyrption and they'll find something else while your personal communications are easily taken and monitored.

Well, this is just utter nonscene.
 

Mindwipe

Member
Well, this is just utter nonscene.

It's honestly not that far off. The UK has no legal protection for speech, and two extremely authoritarian major parties. It has the worst laws on encryption and surveillance of the western world.
 

Pinkuss

Member
It's honestly not that far off. The UK has no legal protection for speech, and two extremely authoritarian major parties. It has the worst laws on encryption and surveillance of the western world.

Eh, speech is fairly well protected? We can be arrested for speech such as inciting racial hatred.
 
Here's the biggest bullshit about this:
It wouldn't have stopped the attack if WhatsApp's messages weren't encrypted, or were vulnerable to being de-encrypted by an intercept.

Like firstly, an algorithm would have to be in place that, somehow, indicates 'based on the context of this message, we think the dude is planning an assault'. Or otherwise the police would have to already have made some decision to intercept this dude's messages, which I don't think they were with Masood. The only other possibility would be downloading all WhatsApp messages and decrypting all of them, before subjecting them to an algorithm that highlights potential terror plots.

So there's that first hurdle.

But then, the police would actually have to respond to it, after picking it out and actually going through it. Make the judgement on whether or not the message is actually serious, and then to see if they can somehow track its location or the intended target. In that sort of time - because no, I don't expect an immediate call down the line to officers surrounding Parliament - the attack has happened anyway and we're at where we are now.

Yes, there is an argument to be made around how we address the ability of the internet to facilitate crime and terror through anonymity. Trying to justify the simplest, most useless political approach through an impossible scenario - trying to learn Masood's potential contacts is one thing, implying the ability to do so would outright stop the attack is another - is not the way to do it.
 

ps3ud0

Member
They already got the Snoopers Charter passed quietly - they can fuck off with the whole 'the state requires access to all communication for national security' bollocks - if they want tougher measures why dont they start with allowing the SC to include MPs!

The apathy shown by the average Brit scares me when it comes to things like this...

ps3ud0 8)
 

Memory

Member
"Our* way of life will not change - *those of us with money and influence anyway. The rest of you common serfs can get fucked. Vote Tory."

This. Its been like this since Cameron. Uni fees, EMA, benefits,brexit, pretty much all changes fuck the poor and don't effect the rich and influential.

Those in the middle suffer the worse as they think they will move up but inevitability they move down towards the poor.
 

Breakage

Member
Seems more like an excuse as to why they couldn't prevent Wednesday's attack. He was a "peripheral figure" - they weren't​ even watching him so how would having access to his WhatsApp have helped?
 

Xun

Member
Our home secretaries have unfortunately been Orwellian for a while now.

They already got the Snoopers Charter passed quietly - they can fuck off with the whole 'the state requires access to all communication for national security' bollocks - if they want tougher measures why dont they start with allowing the SC to include MPs!

The apathy shown by the average Brit scares me when it comes to things like this...

ps3ud0 8)
IIRC the Snooper's Charter has hit a brick wall thanks to the European court.

It was unfortunately to be expected.

Our government loves to have an excuse to do this shit.
 

kmax

Member
You don't need privacy anymore, because of, you know, terrorists.

I'll just quote this until the end of time, because these people still spew that kind of nonsense.
Those who would give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin.
 

Easy_D

never left the stone age
I don't have an issue with this. If it helps prevent terrorist attacks then good.

Because fuck privacy. Would you be okay if there were an institution of people who opened your mail and read it before resealing it and sending it your way? That's essentially what this is lol
 

Carcetti

Member
No because they can read that easy enough. It's not about banning things like WhatsApp, they just want to be able to read people's messages at will.

A 12 year old can have unhackable encryption on messages by using pen and paper. It's called cryptography and one time pads. The same thing works exactly the same in any instant messaging.
 

suedester

Banned
Because fuck privacy. Would you be okay if there were an institution of people who opened your mail and read it before resealing it and sending it your way? That's essentially what this is lol

If the government or security services thought i was plotting to kill then they should have a method to read my electronic communications to aid them prevent it. The key for me is it needs an independent judge or someone to sign a warrant.
 

FyreWulff

Member
so people do realize even if you mandated encryption off for messages you can still send an encrypted message over unencrypted messaging, right? This is how PGP encrypted email works.

And even if you banned encrypting a message via PGP or some other method, you could just switch to using codephrasing.

The genie has been out of the bottle for a long time
 
If the government or security services thought i was plotting to kill then they should have a method to read my electronic communications to aid them prevent it. The key for me is it needs an independent judge or someone to sign a warrant.

The problem with that premise is that such still requires there to be a built in weakness - the 'backdoor' that is so often spoken of - to be exploited. Once that is there, no-one can guarantee that only the government, properly sanctioned by a court order, would be able to access it. It is an open invitation to hackers, who once they have it figured out, could easily proliferate it and so an entire service is potentially compromised.
 

Joni

Member
so people do realize even if you mandated encryption off for messages you can still send an encrypted message over unencrypted messaging, right? This is how PGP encrypted email works.

And even if you banned encrypting a message via PGP or some other method, you could just switch to using codephrasing.

The genie has been out of the bottle for a long time

You made the government watch-list. You wouldn't need that if you were honest.
 

Weckum

Member
A 12 year old can have unhackable encryption on messages by using pen and paper. It's called cryptography and one time pads. The same thing works exactly the same in any instant messaging.

To be fair, using OTP's correctly is a lot harder and requires a lot more discipline than using Whatsapp.
 

FyreWulff

Member

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
By this logic, he might as well say that any private conversation is unacceptable.
 
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