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[blakep267]

Having all their games on PC doesn't remove the need for a box. There will always be people that will prefer to buy a premade box that plays the games you want

Time and time again I have zero idea why people here find this so hard to believe. The vat majority of console users have no desire to build a PC. They are content with their $200+ dollar box to play games

 

[Tecnniqe]

I align with everything you say but this case is an exception.

I appreciate MS efforts to integrate the PC in their ecosystem, that didn't exist before.

Is the store bad? Yes. Is UWP bad? Yes. But also Uplay was bad and Origin was bad, heck even Steam was really bad a some point and they all improved.

And your average gamer also shouted Uplay is shit and Origin is shit and they came around and they're better than they were.

People have accepted that videogame publishers have their own storefront with their own restrictions but somehow that's not OK for microsoft, somehow.

And you're OK with jap devs you love throwing denuvo left and right which it doesn't stray that far from UWP.

I also find asking microsoft for PC-centric titles or offering services that go beyond (again, what publisher with a storefront does this?), why should Microsoft be ask for more when it has only promised so far to publish their typically console exclusive games on PC.

I for one played FH3 and Gears4 last year on pc without an issue from the windows store or its UWP. I'm aware of the problems but after the anniversary update I think GAF blows again things out of proportion.

I understand the complains to the Store and UWP and I find them fair, but saying "they only want a app store money printing model and they can fuck off" feels very childish since the company wants money, offers product but they dont offer it how you want it so your response is "to do that better not do anything". Strongly disagree.

I agree. I'm glad they exist on the platform regardless and they have given me many hours of enjoyment and experiences I otherwise wouldn't have had. Maybe I've been mostly lucky, and while there are some issues, to me, it's better than nothing at all.

 

[Solrac]

exclusive games sell console, and Microsoft needs that so... if you can play that " exclusive game " on pc that's not exclusive anymore... sorry.

 

[ezodagrom]

Is the store bad? Yes. Is UWP bad? Yes. But also Uplay was bad and Origin was bad, heck even Steam was really bad a some point and they all improved.

Origin when it launched was better than the Windows Store currently to say the least.

Origin and Uplay games don't use a file format that severely restricts modding.

Also Origin and Uplay games are sold on other digital stores, unlike Windows Store games, this brings competition and so better prices/discounts for the customers, meanwhile MS charges a premium for games tied to what's arguably the worst digital platform (70€ games, no thanks).
Uplay games are even sold on Steam.

 

[Tecnniqe]

Origin when it launched was better than the Windows Store currently to say the least.

Also Origin and Uplay games are sold on other digital stores, unlike Windows Store games, this brings competition and so better prices/discounts for the customers, meanwhile MS charges a premium for games tied to what's arguably the worst digital platform (70€ games, no thanks).

But then again you can buy digital codes and redeem them for much cheaper.

 

[Okada]

Also Origin and Uplay games are sold on other digital stores, unlike Windows Store games

There are still tons of games that are only on Origin.

 

[ezodagrom]

There are still tons of games that are only on Origin.

Like which?

EA's own high profile games are sold on other digital stores except for Steam, like...
https://www.greenmangaming.com/games/mass-effect-andromeda/
https://uk.gamesplanet.com/game/mass-effect-andromeda-origin-key--3161-1

I don't see this happening with Windows Store games at all.

 

[Okada]

Like which?

EA's own high profile games are sold on other digital stores except for Steam, like...
https://www.greenmangaming.com/games/mass-effect-andromeda/
https://uk.gamesplanet.com/game/mass-effect-andromeda-origin-key--3161-1

I don't see this happening with Windows Store games at all.

But these just register to Origin?

You can get Windows Store games this way too.

https://www.greenmangaming.com/games/halo-wars-2/

 

[Shari]

Origin when it launched was better than the Windows Store currently to say the least.

Origin and Uplay games don't use a file format that severely restricts modding.

Also Origin and Uplay games are sold on other digital stores, unlike Windows Store games, this brings competition and so better prices/discounts for the customers, meanwhile MS charges a premium for games tied to what's arguably the worst digital platform (70€ games, no thanks).
Uplay games are even sold on Steam.

Your first points are arguable, I had more problems with Uplay than I've had with the WStore, YMMV.

Concerning the file format, latest titles from either EA or Ubisoft are denuvo protected so what content is accessible and what isn't isn't much of a point. I agree that dll hooks are out in WStore and I agree that that's clearly worse. Yet nothing close to be a deal breaker for me.

The point about competition is disingenuous and you perfectly know about it. EA developed games are Origin exclusive AFAIK and Ubisoft publishes on steam but prices are the same if not more expensive, and they also make you through Uplay. This is a very weak point when you see the real meaning of this "open to competition" spirit.

All in all those are fair points but really moot in comparison to have Microsoft's AAA titles in my platform of choice.

In fact, if could choose I would rather have ports on the level of Gears4 (looking at you FH3 and QB) rather than bothering about how bad is UWP when it has little to no impact to my experience.

Edit: I see that by competition you meant having the games sold in third party sites. Thats a good point and I'd like microsoft to introduce something like that. The thing is I use those to have better prices, if I want the same with microsoft I only have to change the region.

Edit2: I didnt see the point on Halo Wars 2, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand done!

 

[Reckheim]

As a PC gamer that doesn't plan to buy an xbox anytime soon. I like they are doing it and I hope they continue doing it.

I haven't bought any of exclusive their games yet tho, don't really interest me much.

 

[Clear]

I wouldn't fancy the chances of any gaming device without strong exclusives to drive uptake and interest.

 

[Corine]

Continue pushing PC of course. Wouldn't make any sense not too. Just do it a whole lot better than they are doing now. Like 10000000% better.

 

[nekkid]

Time and time again I have zero idea why people here find this so hard to believe. The vat majority of console users have no desire to build a PC. They are content with their $200+ dollar box to play games

These people are tend to be ignorant of gaming outside their PC bubble, or arrogant enough to presume everyone should be capable of building a gaming PC or have the outlay to buy one.

Assholes, basically.

 

[Abilidebob]

.

You know why people are angry at Microsoft and more... lenient with other companies like EA and Ubisoft?

Because Microsoft aren't newcomers at this. They've been at "it" since way before all those companies. They're one of the oldest and biggest "PC" companies in the world. Their OS is synonymous with PC and PC gaming, and it has been for a long time. They've published some beloved PC classics. Going by experience and "know-how" alone they're pretty much THE company to expect to do it right.

But no. Every single one of their (SUPER LATE) tries at a PC gaming store/platform has been terrible. GFWL, W8 store, W10. You say that people, rightfully, used to talk shit about Origin and uPlay and they got better, so why not give Microsoft more time?

Because it's not their first time doing this. We saw how they half-assedly did something that no one liked, never really fixed the problems the users had with it and just abandoned it, for the harm of its users and developers. Treating Microsoft like this brave little company that is daring to contest the clutches that Steam has on PC gaming is just damaging to the platform.

Microsoft has the money, personnel and skills to quickly fix the most egregious problems of the Windows Store and UWP faster than all other companies. But they keep treating it like a mobile store, still has infinitely less features than all other stores, while UWP keeps locking features that PC gamers expect.

From a company the size of Microsoft, the history of Microsoft, it's honestly infuriating how utterly bad this "try" at going back to PC gaming is.

Also, this "argument" that Steam was bad at the beginning and so on is even sadder for Microsoft. Being compared to Steam 14 years ago isn't exactly a good thing.

 

[Shari]

You know why people are angry at Microsoft and more... lenient with other companies like EA and Ubisoft?

Because Microsoft aren't newcomers at this. They've been at "it" since way before all those companies. They're one of the oldest and biggest "PC" companies in the world. Their OS is synonymous with PC and PC gaming, and it has been for a long time. They've published some beloved PC classics. Going by experience and "know-how" alone they're pretty much THE company to expect to do it right.

But no. Every single one of their (SUPER LATE) tries at a PC gaming store/platform has been terrible. GFWL, W8 store, W10. You say that people, rightfully, used to talk shit about Origin and uPlay and they got better, so why not give Microsoft more time?

Because it's not their first time doing this. We saw how they half-assedly did something that no one liked, never really fixed the problems the users had with it and just abandoned it, for the harm of its users and developers. Treating Microsoft like this brave little company that is daring to contest the clutches that Steam has on PC gaming is just damaging to the platform.

Microsoft has the money, personnel and skills to quickly fix the most egregious problems of the Windows Store and UWP faster than all other companies. But they keep treating it like a mobile store, still has infinitely less features than all other stores, while UWP keeps locking features that PC gamers expect.

From a company the size of Microsoft, the history of Microsoft, it's honestly infuriating how utterly bad this "try" at going back to PC gaming is.

This is all fine an dandy but its not because the company was something that it can do something or because it has a lot of money.

And OK, they have their problems and they fix them slowly if they fix them. Still, what they bring to the table is better than having nothing at all and no matter the degree of experience I think they should be given time like everyone to fix their shit.

I won't be saying "Oh, customer support on steam is utter crap, I'd rather have them close the store altogether", that would be stupid and so is to say that Microsoft should drop their efforts on PC altogether because their efforts are not focused on what you would like.

But everyone is entitled to their opinion, is not like we haven't seen this outcry before with previous storefronts. I only hope microsoft doesn't give up because bringing games to as many platforms as possible is the correct way of doing business in this industry and I hope more companies join this instead of locking games behind marketing deals (which all console manufactures are doing).

We might not like some of the means Microsoft is using to bring their games to PC but the main idea behind the implementation still benefits everyone in the community (except forum console warriors).

 

[gypsygib]

They should stop doing both half assed.

 

[marciocdb]

I really don't mind the Xbox <> PC game sharing...

I bought Astroneer on Windows 10 and I can enjoy it either on my Xbox or my PC and it's great...

That actually made me start thinking about not buying games on Steam in favor of Windows 10 Store (for games that are also available there and supports "Play Anywhere")

 

[RedFury]

Only console warriors want exclusivity. Proper fans want the widest audience to enjoy the game with them... plus it is good for investors.

 

[ezodagrom]

But these just register to Origin?

So? The point is that there's better prices thanks to discounts from the third party stores.

You can get Windows Store games this way too.

https://www.greenmangaming.com/games/halo-wars-2/

Yay, one game from their store is sold on one third party store, searched for Forza Horizon, nothing, searched for either Gears of War, nothing. Other stores don't have Halo Wars 2 either.

Plus:

Source:
Authorised Distributor

This means they didn't get the keys from Microsoft themselves.

Concerning the file format, latest titles from either EA or Ubisoft are denuvo protected so what content is accessible and what isn't isn't much of a point. I agree that dll hooks are out in WStore and I agree that that's clearly worse. Yet nothing close to be a deal breaker for me.

I'll take Denuvo over UWP any time, Denuvo didn't stop modders from improving NieR Automata or Tales of Berseria.

In fact, if could choose I would rather have ports on the level of Gears4 (looking at you FH3 and QB) rather than bothering about how bad is UWP when it has little to no impact to my experience.

Meanwhile the issues with FH3 could have possibly been fixed by modders if it wasn't an UWP game.

 

[Quazar]

So is MS planning to make XBL free, thus the game pass idea to keep the revenue coming in by making XBL free?

 

[blakep267]

So is MS planning to make XBL free, thus the game pass idea to keep the revenue coming in by making XBL free?

That's a terrible idea as gamepass is not going to have nearly as many subscribers as live gold. There's no incentive to making live free.

 

[Chris1]

That's a terrible idea as gamepass is not going to have nearly as many subscribers as live gold. There's no incentive to making live free.

To be fair it also costs 2x as much, they don't need as many subscribers

But yeah, I doubt XBLG goes free especially now Sony charges for it. I wish journalists would ask them why it's paid on Xbox and free on PC and actually put pressure on them. We all know why but MS can't exactly say that

 

[Tecnniqe]

So? The point is that there's better prices thanks to discounts from the third party stores.


Yay, one game from their store is sold on one third party store, searched for Forza Horizon, nothing, searched for either Gears of War, nothing. Other stores don't have Halo Wars 2 either.

Plus:

This means they didn't get the keys from Microsoft themselves.

There are other sites that sell Xbox and WS games, like cdkeys and those as well. Region swapping still works on the platform as well if you feel like it. You can find them at great prices just like every other game on the planet.

Oh as for your nitpicky about authorized seller.

ME:A
Source: Authorized Distributor

This means they didn't get the keys from EA themselves either. Point being what?

 

[Lister]

Time and time again I have zero idea why people here find this so hard to believe. The vat majority of console users have no desire to build a PC. They are content with their $200+ dollar box to play games

exclusive games sell console, and Microsoft needs that so... if you can play that " exclusive game " on pc that's not exclusive anymore... sorry.

So which is it? We always get these two diametricially opposed opinions when discussing stuf flike this.

On the one hand, there will ALWAYS be people who just want a console over a PC, and yet, somehow, the moment a console "exclusive" jumps to PC, no one is going to want to buy that console, everyone will become a PC gamer.

So, which is it?

 

[Lister]

Time and time again I have zero idea why people here find this so hard to believe. The vat majority of console users have no desire to build a PC. They are content with their $200+ dollar box to play games

Although I will happilly point out that this is actually wrong.

It's been shown numerous times with wide ranging data analysis that a lot of people who play games on consoles, also play games on PC.

Here's a study from 2016: http://www.polygon.com/2016/4/29/11539102/gaming-stats-2016-esa-essential-facts

Now, ar ethe majority playing console-like games on PC? I doubt it, but there you go - there certainly isn't this huge distate for the possibility of gaming on a PC even from console gamers.

 

[Bananajama]

It's symbiotic if a little parasitical.

Windows store on PC needs Xbox to thrive and grow
Xbox benefits from the system but in no way needs it like the Windows Store needs it

 

[LukasTaves]

That would be a hard thing to underestimate.

20% of play anywhere sales are being made on PC according to them.

MS are the authors of Windows and to have credibility that windows can continue to be a gaming platform it is important that MS write games for it

However for Windows 10 I dont like that there are xbox icons on the desktop by default (particularly when I dont even own an xbox)

I can see that also being a potential concern for some commercial companies for the general roll out of w10 for office staff using windows primarily of MS office, email and web browser

They use Xbox as a gaming brand, you don't have to own a Xbox to use the features they are pushing.

This is a bit of a double edged sword as he also brought Kinect and Kinect is what caused the massive sales boosts to 360. But that should have been dropped for XO.

I think had he made a strong console and Kinect being optional it would have been an easier sell, as people would look at Kinect as to what it added to the console, not what it took away from being forced.

I couldn't care less. There's so little that makes any exclusivity worth taking into consideration.

MS is so flaky with their "efforts", it's always just the means to make progress on some other objective. They see a pie, want a piece, throw money at the problem, fail, abandon pie for a different pie. GFWL, Zune Marketplace, Win phones, Win10 app store, etc ... always chasing, never leading.

And yet for all those initiatives they did innovate in many ways.

Zune for instance was the first subscription all you can eat service, winphone changed the UI design philosophy for mobile, Win 10 store pushing play anywhere and so on...

Between UWP, which blocks modders from fixing/improving their games (I haven't followed it so dunno if it was ever fixed, but it wouldn't have been surprising if modders would have been able to fix Forza Horizon 3's stuttering issues if it was Win32), overpriced 70€ games, and the Windows 10 store exclusivity (not selling games in other digital stores, such as gamesplanet, greenmangaming and such), Microsoft can give up from PC gaming again for all I care (either that or swallow their pride and go Win32 + Steam).

There are mods available for many uwp games already.

They aren't pushing PC, they are pushing their Store.

Not entirely true. They are adding features to windows that also work with win32 games like:

- Improved non exclusive full screen support so there's no performance loss
- Xbox services available for everyone (friendlist, party chat, game invites, clubs, looking for groups etc), that work even with many win32 games (and they add support for more regularly).
- Game mode that also works with win32 (right now it doesn't do much other than allocate a portion of system resources exclusively to the game, but they said they will keep improving it)

 

[BigEmil]

They should make PC gaming their first priority full on and make UWP an actual decent Steam competitor and maybe leave a console box but should be there second priority

 

[Lister]

- Improved non exclusive full screen support so there's no performance loss
- Xbox services available for everyone (friendlist, party chat, game invites, clubs, looking for groups etc), that work even with many win32 games (and they add support for more regularly).
- Game mode that also works with win32 (right now it doesn't do much other than allocate a portion of system resources exclusively to the game, but they said they will keep improving it)

Are these planne,d or are any of them actually a thing yet? I like the first and last ones.

 

[ezodagrom]

There are other sites that sell Xbox and WS games, like cdkeys and those as well. Region swapping still works on the platform as well if you feel like it. You can find them at great prices just like every other game on the planet.

Oh as for your nitpicky about authorized seller.

ME:A
Source: Authorized Distributor

This means they didn't get the keys from EA themselves either. Point being what?

My bad, I should have checked that about Mass Effect on Greenmangaming, but Gamesplanet page at least says that it uses officially licensed keys, though I'm having trouble finding Origin games in other stores.

I haven't been interested in EA games in years, so I wasn't aware that there were less stores having EA games (officially that is), so I guess for me that makes EA almost as bad as MS.

Also I can't find digital stores that officially sell Windows Store games.

 

[blakep267]

So which is it? We always get these two diametricially opposed opinions when discussing stuf flike this.

On the one hand, there will ALWAYS be people who just want a console over a PC, and yet, somehow, the moment a console "exclusive" jumps to PC, no one is going to want to buy that console, everyone will become a PC gamer.

So, which is it?

Sony could not release another exclusive for the next 2 years Nd they wouldn't slow down sales wise. Way too much emphasis is put on exclusives. They're important, but third party games matter much more. Which is why MS still is making good money off of royalties and Xbox live even when not releasing games during this period.

Although I will happilly point out that this is actually wrong.

It's been shown numerous times with wide ranging data analysis that a lot of people who play games on consoles, also play games on PC.

Here's a study from 2016: http://www.polygon.com/2016/4/29/11539102/gaming-stats-2016-esa-essential-facts

Now, ar ethe majority playing console-like games on PC? I doubt it, but there you go - there certainly isn't this huge distate for the possibility of gaming on a PC even from console gamers.

As you said yourself there's a dofference between playing solitaire and FarmVille vs a console game on a PC. My mom plays farmville. She's not building a PC to play graphics heavy games

 

[jroc74]

If they stopped making consoles it wouldn't be a big deal, like if Sony or Nintendo did.

Exactly.

As big a Sony fan I am, it wouldnt be any different just like I was a big fan of Sega. Either I would migrate to the other platforms or if someone took MS place and did a good job, (like Sony replacing Sega) I would go with them.

 

[LukasTaves]

Are these planne,d or are any of them actually a thing yet? I like the first and last ones.

The first was there right of the bat from win10.

The last is delivered now with the Creators Update, with mixed results, but it does seem to improve average frametimes specially with you have some programs opened or some services installed (which is common for people who work and play on the same Pc)

 

[KageMaru]

Continue to support both with Xbox anywhere. Mostly console warriors care about whether a game is a console exclusive or full exclusive.

There are still plenty of people who have no interest in PC gaming and the Xbox is a perfect alternative for playing MS games.

 

[D4Danger]

why would you ever want to prevent someone from playing a game? the only people who think like that are pathetic console warrior types.

 

[Matt]

20% of play anywhere sales are being made on PC according to them.

This is another good example of MS using very specific wording to make a situation look better than it is.

 

[FireRises]

it's one of the best decisions they've ever made, so continue it.

 

[Shari]

Meanwhile the issues with FH3 could have possibly been fixed by modders if it wasn't an UWP game.

A very clear case of tales from your ass, no offence.

Considering we can't look into the rendering thanks to UWP, hinting we could fix the streaming or frametime issues without even having a peak at the rendering is a lot of fud.

 

[Coxy100]

If they stopped making consoles it wouldn't be a big deal, like if Sony or Nintendo did.

Of course it would be a big deal.

The Xbox One might not have sold as much as the PS4 but there's still millions of people out there locked to the Xbox platform / ecosystem - they aren't interested in gaming on a PC.

 

[Deleted member 752119]

I hope they keep with PC as I sold my X1 and got a gaming pc finally once they started the play anywhere thing. In any case, I doubt I'd by another X1 in any case as their exclusives haven't done much for me this gen. Doubt I'd get another Xbox period unless Sony or Nintendo really screw up in a future gen.

For them, I think they should keep it as the real money is in selling software, not hardware. Being on pc just expands their potential audience for all their games.

It is also good to diversify as gaming and media in general will all be app and cloud based (long time away, but coming) rather than physical and tied to hardware. Sony is arguably preparing the best for that with PS Now already a thing. For MS play anywhere and their coming download service is their first step.

 

[marciocdb]

This is another good example of MS using very specific wording to make a situation look better than it is.

So you think not a lot of people are using that? Or maybe they are not aware that their Xbox One game also works in their W10 PCs ?

 

[Tecnniqe]

Of course it would be a big deal.

The Xbox One might not have sold as much as the PS4 but there's still millions of people out there locked to the Xbox platform / ecosystem - they aren't interested in gaming on a PC.

And there is the meat of the point right?

I'm not interested in playing on an Xbox but I will buy the games they offer on PC that peaks my interests. Same would go for PS.

Options. It's there.

 

[Matt]

So you think not a lot of people are using that? Or maybe they are not aware that their Xbox One game also works in their W10 PCs ?

I'm saying that MS stating that 20% of Play Anywhere titles are bought on PC is not the same as saying 20% of Play Anywhere titles are played on PC.

 

[Darkroronoa]

Microsoft, with windows,could really push PC gaming beyond what it is now in terms of accessibility and ease of usage. PC gaming is easy today but if microsoft focused on PC they could really do many great things and i think we are starting to see a few of them.

They dont really need a console (well atm they make money on it), they can make people put a pc in their living room and i think thats their plan with the new store. They just needed a way to make more money from PC and now thay have it.

Hopefully scorpio will be a bit more than a traditinal console, even a windows store restricted "windows box" will be a good step forward.

They should push PC, although i really hope they dont start anti-consumer tactics like charging subscriptions or locking windows.

 

[Durante]

And your average gamer also shouted Uplay is shit and Origin is shit and they came around and they're better than they were.

Those are distribution mechanisms for PC games. That's perfectly fine. Microsoft is trying to change (and is in a position to succeed, if we are really unlucky) what the PC platform is.
Also, I'm not your average gamer. Generally, my objections are based on very specific long-term concerns.

And you're OK with jap devs you love throwing denuvo left and right which it doesn't stray that far from UWP.

It's a huge difference. Look at Nier:Automata: thriving injection-based modding scene. No need to work around Denovu, it's not a hindrance to this at all. (Don't get me wrong -- it is a concern for long-term preservation, but by the time that becomes acute it's usually cracked)

I understand the complains to the Store and UWP and I find them fair

If you do, then you should understand why, from my perspective, it really is worse than nothing.
I had far fewer problems with MS in the decade they didn't care about PC gaming at all than now when they ostensibly do.

 

[marciocdb]

I'm saying that MS stating that 20% of Play Anywhere titles are bought on PC is not the same as saying 20% of Play Anywhere titles are played on PC.

Ok, fair enough.

But I'd guess that if people are buying those games in Win10 Store, they are probably also playing them on a PC... at least the vast majority...

 

[Complicated]

I have a decent PC and still play 99% of games on consoles. Planning to upgrade my console and let my PC stagnate for that reason. I'm all for Microsoft continuing to do consumer-friendly things like this rather than lock their games down to specific hardware.

 

[Matt]

Ok, fair enough.

But I'd guess that if people are buying those games in Win10 Store, they are probably also playing them on a PC... at least the vast majority...

Well, through the Win10 Store isn't the only way to buy the game on a PC...

What you have to ask yourself when you hear a company make a statement like this is, why did they say it that way? Why would they say 20% of the sales are on PC, and I think they also said that 20% of the play time was on PC, but not just say 20% of the players were on PC?

Because they aren't, but hearing those other two numbers might make you think that.

 

[LukasTaves]

This is another good example of MS using very specific wording to make a situation look better than it is.

It was said on a developer conference for developers who can check how well their games are doing on each platform.

The fact that they only gave this info for them and not in a PR piece makes me think there is little to no spin. But who knows.

And yeah, I know that 20% of the sales being on pc doesn't mean sales were 20% higher.

They also said that 20-25% of the total time played are on pcs as well for what's worth. (and to be more specific the exact number they gave is that from play anywhere games, purchase on the windows store ranged from 15-20%).

 

[Matt]

It was said on a developer conference for developers who can check how well their games are doing on each platform.

The fact that they only gave this info for them and not in a PR piece makes me think there is little to no spin. But who knows.

And yeah, I know that 20% of the sales being on pc doesn't mean sales were 20% higher.

They also said that 20-25% of the total time played are on pcs as well for what's worth. (and to be more specific the exact number they gave is that from play anywhere games, purchase on the windows store ranged from 15-20%).

Look above. And of course they would want to spin for developers, they need to sell those people on the Windows Store too.