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Should MS continue pushing PC or should they focus on console exclusivity?

UWP is a big evolution when comparing to Win32... that's not the problem since it can also be sold at Steam.

Saying that "UWPs could be sold on Steam" is both true and untrue. "UWPs could be sold by Valve" would be technically true. Both are incredibly misleading.

The way Steam works is that it processes program directory of a game to some level - for some games it basically copies most files, for other ones it actually manages data archives by itself. This data is then send out to the client which recreates something functional - again, sometimes the exact files sent by developers, sometimes something similar. For games both making use of Steam APIs for e.g. server browsers and not making use of these but under control of additional Steam features such as screen home overlay, custom controller support and so on, game executable is fused at runtime with code files supplied by the Steam client. An element of account lockout is that files, executable ones in particular, are customized by Valve servers on per-account basis.

The UWP installation, as far as I'm aware, works as follows: you hand Windows a complete installation package that is signed by someone who got their credentials signed by MS and it installs, as of now to an encrypted folder so that no one messes with this previously signed package data. This doesn't allow simple use of currently installed data as a baseline for deriving slightly different files delivered by a patch package, assuming patch packages are even in. You could make a lot of files just regular files laying around somewhere, but this is not allowed for code files, and is somewhat of a subversion of packaging system in the first place. This assumes MS's signature credential signing agreement even allows such things as generating a signature for every user's copy of a package, otherwise the whole authentication system needs to be rebuilt from scratch. An interesting question that I don't know the answer to is whether a regular UWP app can request installation of another UWP app provided by file, or whether the client would have to keep using WinAPI nonetheless.

UWP by design doesn't allow things such as subverting existing executable's code to support input overriding, so for each such feature Valve would probably have to patch every individual game at installation point or build something in right from the get go instead of doing it once for client and then finishing some things at runtime. Just patching every installation point would still require usage of "unpure" UWP API, though. This gets very interesting when you get delisted games into the mix, since it possibly has different legal implications. Additionally a lot of code for server connections and such would have to be rebuilt or heavily redesigned due to UWP's design discouraging communication between different processes. It wouldn't be unimaginable that a game would have to be patched in sync with a patch to the Steam client.

This doesn't cover why would Valve want to support this program format in the first place. There is very little "big evolution" here. You can't JIT code, you can't talk to other processes as easily, you can't use some old APIs which were sometimes outdated and sometimes not. The APIs that are exclusive to UWPs and do something as opposed to dealing with UWP specific problems tend to be either gated off arbitrarily (hello, Xbox One controller trigger rumble... last I heard of you) or connected to MS accounts.
 
At first I thought Play Anywhere meant well what's the point of owning an Xbox. But I thought about it through, and for me, I feel like most individuals that casually game aren't going to go off and build a PC and purchase one that's capable of running these games. They want to play with the rest if their friends and we'll what console are there friends playing on. The 2k, the Madden's the COD attract those to simply pick up a console and play.

The turnaround that Sony did for PS was one thing I was a bit shocked off. I invested in the PS ecosysten, I didn't want an Xbox I felt like a loyalist, it was just Sony offered me what I felt like Xbox didn't. Those games you just don't ever associate Xbox to have. Now I won't deny the impact the Xbox exclusive had had, it spawned generations of gamers with their Halo, Gears and others which is why I went from Xbox dead to, well this is what they have to do now.

Just as a tinkerer I would rather build a PC, for the experience and the fun factor. It would be a plus because most Xbox exclusives will turn to that PC I want to get, but it also turns into a semi expensive investment that wouldn't be my main gaming system. Give and take for me.

While Play Anywhere seemed to be a quick "well what's the point of owning an Xbox" I still feel like MS is in the comfy lane when it comes to those that just want a system and they don't want to do anything extra, just pick up and go. And of course it all varies in the games, and this is where MS needs to step it up in their offering. Play anywhere isn't going to change the fact that they need to do something different that works, give new IP a chance, and stop sticking with the 40th edition of a franchise
 

RedSwirl

Junior Member
I'm gonna try to reiterate my previous point in a more succinct way:

How many potential Xbox buyers does Microsoft actually lose by putting Gears and Forza on PC? Are those two franchises that big that all of those people would buy Xboxes for them? Or are there a lot more people who would buy Gears and Forza if they were on PC, who aren't willing to buy Xboxes for those games? Same for Halo I guess.

You could potentially ask this about any first party exclusive for any console, but that gets us into the whole conversation about what actually separates the consoles from each other. Recently I thought it was moving from being about exclusives to being more about the comparison between services, but now I'm not so sure.
 

KonradLaw

Member
I find hard to relate to this sense of entitlement. I do not wish for pc exclusives, they have no value to me, I just care about getting as many games as possible so its hard for me to relate.

.
Well, since you don't care about quality (that's what's implied here, since something like Age of Empires IV or Flight Simulator XI would suffer greatly as multiplat), then I feel hard to relate to your stance too.
 
As someone who uses his PC to play a lot, I'd rather have MS going back to consoles full time.

At least that way they wouldn't try to fuck up the PC ecosystem, regarding MS on PC no attention is better than any attention at all, every single time they come around it looks like someone used a monkey's paw.
 

120v

Member
every console manufacturer should have a toe in PC waters right now. there's going to be a day you won't need a "game box" anymore
 

Majine

Banned
As someone who uses his PC to play a lot, I'd rather have MS going back to consoles full time.

At least that way they wouldn't try to fuck up the PC ecosystem, regarding MS on PC no attention is better than any attention at all, every single time they come around it looks like someone used a monkey's paw.

How is it better for them to do nothing rather than something?

PC players play Gears 4, Forza Horizon 3 and so on, on a PC. How is that not better than not being able to?
 

dmix90

Member
Of course they should continue. If i can play good games which i otherwise could not on PC then it's a plus. Exclusives are bad for consumers. Only salty fanboys will tell you otherwise.
 

Rathorial

Member
I think there will always be a group of people that want consoles, or at least some simplified version of a computer to play games. To me it makes complete sense for a company like Microsoft to also port their game to PC, since they make the OS for those devices as well. The trend we see in modern tech is about creating a connected ecosystem across different products, cater those products to different audiences, and have those products be more multi-purpose.

The trouble with Microsoft now is they still seem like a company stuck in the process of course correcting away from the Balmer/Mattrick era. Microsoft exclusives on PC should be a good thing, but UWP released unfinished, lacked standard features, some performed poorly on great hardware, and the software exists on a storefront worse than uPlay. Microsoft could grow a nice size audience if they could at least compete on the level of Origin in terms of service, and provide more quantity/quality first-party software you can't get on Sony/Nintendo platforms.

It's far too late for Microsoft to back out of PC gaming or the Play Anywhere thing. If they do, they'll only further damage a brand they're trying to recover.
 

Bluth54

Member
every console manufacturer should have a toe in PC waters right now. there's going to be a day you won't need a "game box" anymore

It still amazes me that Nintendo isn't putting their older games on Steam. Right now if you play games on PC your only option for playing classic Nintendo games is downloading/playing them illegally.
 

Fitts

Member
Continue supporting PC, but do it the right way and put their games on Steam/etc.

Also, diversify releases. Halo-Gears-Forza isn't exactly setting the world on fire.
 

deadman69

Member
It still amazes me that Nintendo isn't putting their older games on Steam. Right now if you play games on PC your only option for playing classic Nintendo games is downloading/playing them illegally.
You could replace Nintendo with Microsoft and this post would still be true.
 
How is it better for them to do nothing rather than something?

PC players play Gears 4, Forza Horizon 3 and so on, on a PC. How is that not better than not being able to?

I was there when GFWL happened, and I won't want that to happen again. Doing nothing would mean no/less UWP - Window Store pushing for games, among other things.

I'd rather have that than a few ports, some of which are not even decent to begin with (the port, not the game).
 

Majine

Banned
Doing nothing would mean no/less UWP - Window Store pushing for games, among other things.

I'd rather have that than a few ports, some of which are not even decent to begin with (the port, not the game).

So regardless of the quality of the port, you want them to give up the games in exchange for never talking about UWP again.

Well, I disagree with you. I'm all about the games.
 
every console manufacturer should have a toe in PC waters right now. there's going to be a day you won't need a "game box" anymore

Bingo.

And in the meantime I would argue it doesn't really dent their console sales potential much at all. Majority of people just want to throw a $400 box under the TV and be done with it. Sony and Nintendo could make a killing putting their games on PC, even if they did it with a one year delay. And as you say it lays some groundwork for the future.

As for XPA, I love I can play my game in two places. I will play campaigns on PC where I can max out the graphics. Then play multi on console where it's all gamepads. All for the price of one!

The Win store needs major improvement though. Plus to me they should be just doing everything through the Xbox App.
 
So regardless of the quality of the port, you want them to give up the games in exchange for never talking about UWP again.

Well, I disagree with you. I'm all about the games.

Everyone disagrees with something, I'd rather have all my games than a few UWP ones.
 

Erevador

Member
Aoe_fuchs.png
 

shandy706

Member
Their console games are exclusives to everyone but those of us that have/buy/build gaming PCs.

I'd like more first party stuff though.
 

Bluth54

Member
You could replace Nintendo with Microsoft and this post would still be true.

No it's no. Microsoft doesn't have all their classic games on Steam but you can buy Microsoft Flight Simulator X, Age of Empires 2/3, Age of Mythology and Rise of Nations on Steam among others. It's not everything but it's better than the absolutely nothing Nintendo has on PC. You have a PC and want to play an NES, SNES, N64, GB or GBA game? Your single option to play a rom on an emulator.
 

Shari

Member
Well, since you don't care about quality (that's what's implied here, since something like Age of Empires IV or Flight Simulator XI would suffer greatly as multiplat), then I feel hard to relate to your stance too.

Yeah. Like diablo did.

Please spare me.

Edit:
Can't believe how many users would rather not have ports only to avoid the ridiculous unlikely situation of UWP taking control of the PC gaming market.

As ridiculous as saying that I would prefer that Nintendo Switch wouldn't exist in the off chance that all next consoles would be hybrids.

Can't deal with that kind of logic, I'm out.
 

OsirisBlack

Banned
Of course they should continue. If i can play good games which i otherwise could not on PC then it's a plus. Exclusives are bad for consumers. Only salty fanboys will tell you otherwise.
No, exclusives are good for shareholders and the ONLY reason you're seeing xbox exclusives on PC is because the Xbox brand is not showing good profit margins. If you think it's a good idea for a CONSOLE MANUFACTURER to put their games on steam giving a different platform an unquestionably better version of their game then you're delusional. There is no fanboy in that it would just be bad business. Having a very powerful PC has already killed most of the interest I had in the scorpio. Unless Microsoft back peddle on their current strategy how do they market a pricey underpowered box when you can just play the same games on a more capable PC?
 

Tecnniqe

Banned
Yeah. Like diablo did.

Please spare me.

Edit:
Can't believe how many users would rather not have ports only to avoid the ridiculous unlikely situation of UWP taking control of the PC gaming market.

As ridiculous as saying that I would prefer that Nintendo Switch wouldn't exist in the off chance that all next consoles would be hybrids.

Can't deal with that kind of logic, I'm out.
Good thing I like their options and am purchasing their games causing the death of PC gaming as we know it.

It started with me everyone!
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
So regardless of the quality of the port, you want them to give up the games in exchange for never talking about UWP again.

Well, I disagree with you. I'm all about the games.

So let's go back in time for a minute.

Microsoft released Gears 1, Viva Pinata, and a couple other games on PC during the last console generation, as part of their Games for Windows Live push.

Then they stopped because it wasn't so successful, but plenty of companies continued to use Games for Windows Live for multiplayer and achievements, etc. Microsoft's PC gaming push actively made other games on PC worse for years. Was that worth it, just so we could have a couple of extra Microsoft games on the platform?
 

Nzyme32

Member
No, exclusives are good for shareholders and the ONLY reason you're seeing xbox exclusives on PC is because the Xbox brand is not showing good profit margins. If you think it's a good idea for a CONSOLE MANUFACTURER to put their games on steam giving a different platform an unquestionably better version of their game then you're delusional. There is no fanboy in that it would just be bad business. Having a very powerful PC has already killed most of the interest I had in the scorpio. Unless Microsoft back peddle on their current strategy how do they market a pricey underpowered box when you can just play the same games on a more capable PC?

This is under the premise that console players will on mass be more interested in PC because of this, and somehow MS are not using any business sense in taking revenue from users that will never buy an xbox / never buy from the win store / want the game on PC and happy to buy on the Win store.

Margins on hardware are not the profit maker, percentage on games sold, royalties and service charges are where most revenue is coming from. Plenty of console gamers will never have an interest in a PC and want their consoles & vice versa. MS get to do the usual console business, get 100% via their own PC store digitally and 70% via Steam / other outlets. That isn't bad business, even when their Xbox brand is poorly received along with the consoles themselves vs competition. I don't believe that exclusives going to PC are going to massively effect the number of people purchasing and playing on console. It will have an effect no doubt, but not massively for many reasons. I think MS will show this over time, even when their own PC store efforts are not accepted over other vendors.
 

BigPapi

Member
No, exclusives are good for shareholders and the ONLY reason you're seeing xbox exclusives on PC is because the Xbox brand is not showing good profit margins. If you think it's a good idea for a CONSOLE MANUFACTURER to put their games on steam giving a different platform an unquestionably better version of their game then you're delusional. There is no fanboy in that it would just be bad business. Having a very powerful PC has already killed most of the interest I had in the scorpio. Unless Microsoft back peddle on their current strategy how do they market a pricey underpowered box when you can just play the same games on a more capable PC?

They're not putting their games on steam the games are exclusive to their platform and storefront. The argument of why you would you buy an underpowered box in exchange for a pc is not revelant because microsoft is providing options and they still profit either way. Whether it's the person that simply wants a beefer console or someone that wants a low entry point to play games regardless of performance. Or even someone such as yourself that can enjoy the benefits of pc and still play microsoft games.
 

Duxxy3

Member
I just wonder if it's even worth it for Microsoft to port these games to PC. The extra cost of development. Also the less tangible cost of loss of interest in Xbox as a result of these ports.

I know that not everybody who says "Oh, I can just get XB1 games on PC" is serious. But there will be a certain percent who are serious. People who sold their XB1's, or people that intended to buy an XB1 that no longer need to.

Edit: To say that Microsoft wants people invested in their ecosystem isn't entirely true. Sure, I run windows 10. But I don't give a shit about the Windows store. I don't even use a windows account as my login. My primary sources of gaming on PC are Steam and Blizzard.
I'm not invested in the world of Windows. I am heavily invested in the world of Xbox.
 

dr_rus

Member
No, exclusives are good for shareholders and the ONLY reason you're seeing xbox exclusives on PC is because the Xbox brand is not showing good profit margins. If you think it's a good idea for a CONSOLE MANUFACTURER to put their games on steam giving a different platform an unquestionably better version of their game then you're delusional. There is no fanboy in that it would just be bad business. Having a very powerful PC has already killed most of the interest I had in the scorpio. Unless Microsoft back peddle on their current strategy how do they market a pricey underpowered box when you can just play the same games on a more capable PC?

"a pricey underpowered box" = $399
"a more capable PC" = $800+ and the knowledge needed to keep it running

I was saying from Xbox 1 launch that the whole exclusive strategy for Xbox was flawed as they essentially tried to pull PC players to Xbox platform, which they were selling at a loss, instead of keeping them on their Windows platform, which was pure profit back then.

The fact that they are now considering Windows platform their second gaming platform in addition to Xbox is one proper thing MS has done in general gaming since DX introduction. This is more profits for them, not less, as Xbox and PC markets do not cross, some people will always prefer a console over PC and some vice versa. Forcing the content to just one group means that you're loosing both direct (game sales) and indirect (platform revenue) profits.
 

dmix90

Member
No, exclusives are good for shareholders and the ONLY reason you're seeing xbox exclusives on PC is because the Xbox brand is not showing good profit margins. If you think it's a good idea for a CONSOLE MANUFACTURER to put their games on steam giving a different platform an unquestionably better version of their game then you're delusional. There is no fanboy in that it would just be bad business. Having a very powerful PC has already killed most of the interest I had in the scorpio. Unless Microsoft back peddle on their current strategy how do they market a pricey underpowered box when you can just play the same games on a more capable PC?
I don't give a shit about their shareholders or how well their business stance is. I don't really care if their games on steam or not. I am a simple man who likes halo/gears/forza and likes to play them in best possible way. If their hardware initiative fails miserably i don't care either... they just can double down on software side of things that way. If they keep releasing interesting games they will get some money from me which is a win situation for them as far as i am aware.
 

BigPapi

Member
I just wonder if it's even worth it for Microsoft to port these games to PC. The extra cost of development. Also the less tangible cost of loss of interest in Xbox as a result of these ports.

I know that not everybody who says "Oh, I can just get XB1 games on PC" is serious. But there will be a certain percent who are serious. People who sold their XB1's, or people that intended to buy an XB1 that no longer need to.

No doubt it's worth it the extra cost to development is not big when hardware mimics pc so much. Cost of loss in interest doesn't matter because there is a net gain from pc only players such as myself that would never buy console hardware but would not have a problem buying their games on pc.

So what if the console is sold less by little bit since to play the xbox exclusives one needs to be part of microsofts platform either way.
 

PG2G

Member
I just wonder if it's even worth it for Microsoft to port these games to PC. The extra cost of development. Also the less tangible cost of loss of interest in Xbox as a result of these ports.

I know that not everybody who says "Oh, I can just get XB1 games on PC" is serious. But there will be a certain percent who are serious. People who sold their XB1's, or people that intended to buy an XB1 that no longer need to.

Edit: To say that Microsoft wants people invested in their ecosystem isn't entirely true. Sure, I run windows 10. But I don't give a shit about the Windows store. I don't even use a windows account as my login. My primary sources of gaming on PC are Steam and Blizzard.
I'm not invested in the world of Windows. I am heavily invested in the world of Xbox.

I think it depends on how much code there is in common between the various platforms. If they are basically getting it for free there is no reason not to do it. If they move towards less defined generations and forward/backward compatibility there is even more reason to do it.
 

Shari

Member
I just wonder if it's even worth it for Microsoft to port these games to PC. The extra cost of development. Also the less tangible cost of loss of interest in Xbox as a result of these ports.

I know that not everybody who says "Oh, I can just get XB1 games on PC" is serious. But there will be a certain percent who are serious. People who sold their XB1's, or people that intended to buy an XB1 that no longer need to.

Edit: To say that Microsoft wants people invested in their ecosystem isn't entirely true. Sure, I run windows 10. But I don't give a shit about the Windows store. I don't even use a windows account as my login. My primary sources of gaming on PC are Steam and Blizzard.
I'm not invested in the world of Windows. I am heavily invested in the world of Xbox.

I can't believe people are doubting PC ports profitability in 2017. Just as Nier surpasses the million copies sold having a few days later port with 0 marketing for the PC version while doing 1/4th of the total copies on it's own.

And in the very same reply, we've got the "its on PC no need for an Xbox" argument out once again. It's the real wombo-combo.

I know I said I was out but I take that back, I'm staying for the jokes.
 
I don't think anyone cares about xbox games being on Xbox and PC but forums like NeoGaf. They should continue to do both, but more importantly, get some hit games.
 

Lister

Banned
I just wonder if it's even worth it for Microsoft to port these games to PC. The extra cost of development. Also the less tangible cost of loss of interest in Xbox as a result of these ports.

The extra cost of development is pretty minor. Certianly somehting that they'd make their money back on pretty quickly, even if hey stick to their shitty windows store.

I also don't think there is much of na impact in terms of people losing interest in Xbox, that has a lot more to do with Sony than PC. PC gamers with powerful PC's aren't foregoing consoles 'cause they can't afford them. Theya re forgoing them because they think they suck compared to their PC gaming experiences. These people were never going to buy into the Xbox ecosystem.

But they might become fans of Microsoft IP if those games make it to PC.

Then again, Sony said the PRo was a response to some fo the core console players moving to PC as a console generation got older. So who knows, maybe they know something we don't.
 
You know that would be suicidal right? Perhaps some separate version of Windows 10 (but even that seems farfetched) but as a whole? No fucking chance.

They wouldn't try so hard and waste that much money even giving away free Windows for nothing. It might not come next year, nor in the next 5-10, but they are not doing that without an endgame plan.
 

OsirisBlack

Banned
I don't give a shit about their shareholders or how well their business stance is. I don't really care if their games on steam or not. I am a simple man who likes halo/gears/forza and likes to play them in best possible way. If their hardware initiative fails miserably i don't care either... they just can double down on software side of things that way. If they keep releasing interesting games they will get some money from me which is a win situation for them as far as i am aware.
Oh no believe me were on the same page I'd just hate for Microsoft to fall out of the console space competition. This move in my opinion takes them one step closer to just exiting the console space altogether. Depending on the success or lack thereof of the scorpio I doubt they commit the resources to make another console.
 

Lister

Banned
Oh no believe me were on the same page I'd just hate for Microsoft to fall out of the console space competition. This move in my opinion takes them one step closer to just exiting the console space altogether. Depending on the success or lack thereof of the scorpio I doubt they commit the resources to make another console.

I do agree that that would probably be bad for console gamers. A Sony without major competition is going to act like any other corporation with no major competition. And that's never good for consumers.
 
The extra cost of development is pretty minor. Certianly somehting that they'd make their money back on pretty quickly, even if hey stick to their shitty windows store.

I also don't think there is much of na impact in terms of people losing interest in Xbox, that has a lot more to do with Sony than PC. PC gamers with powerful PC's aren't foregoing consoles 'cause they can't afford them. Theya re forgoing them because they think they suck compared to their PC gaming experiences. These people were never going to buy into the Xbox ecosystem.

I see your point.

Last gen loads of people had PCs and a 360 (me included).

That seems like a crazy setup to me now though, PS4 and PC makes way more sense.

I guess I don't really get the play anywhere thing as I usually have all my shit hooked up to the same TV.
 

Lister

Banned
I see your point.

Last gen loads of people had PCs and a 360 (me included).

That seems like a crazy setup to me now though, PS4 and PC makes way more sense.

I guess I don't really get the play anywhere thing as I usually have all my shit hooked up to the same TV.

That setup is becoming more common too as PC's continue to shrink and come down in price, same with consoles, everyone's trying to be the all in one box that lives under your TV. Even Steam is starting to sell you movies now (not very well mind you).
 
Eventually Microsoft will come to their senses when they see that these games won't sell on PC(Windows Store) and all they've accomplished is diminishing the value of an Xbox console. Be it the Xbox One or Scorpio.
 

BigPapi

Member
Eventually Microsoft will come to their senses when they see that these games won't sell on PC(Windows Store) and all they've accomplished is diminishing the value of an Xbox console. Be it the Xbox One or Scorpio.

This doesn't make sense it probably cost them next to nothing to put these games on pc and sell full price for pure profit. Again even if they lose value in the console market it's made up by added value to another platform they own.
 
This doesn't make sense it probably cost them next to nothing to put these games on pc and sell full price for pure profit. Again even if they lose value in the console market it's made up by added value to another platform they own.

I definitely think they should sell on both.

But if they fuck up the Xbox business you won't be getting games with these kind of development budgets on pc from Microsoft.
 
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