JetBlackPanda
Member
Do you think Rey is having a vision of Luke in a cave? when he says "its time for the jedi to end" ??
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Star Wars: The Last Jedi Official Teaser
- Thread starter FelipeMGM
- Start date
- Status
molnizzle
Member
You understand that the entire point of astroturfing is to get normal people to believe it and repeat it, right?
Killer Queen
Banned
No because it's on ACH to and Luke didn't end his academy of Jedi. Kylo Ren and Snoke did.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Nah, I think he's just saying that.
He probably honestly believes the attempted resurrection of the Jedi Order is a bad idea. doesn't mean he won't train her in the ways of the Force still. But the ultimate end goal will likely not be "Jedi" as he/we understand it.
1) Sapiens is being facetious as shit.
2) You're pretty much embodying the jaded cynicism I was referencing earlier in your embrace of this notion with a straight face.
Nah I think Luke really is at that point. I don't think it means Luke has gone dark side. More that he realized the faults in the Jedi mindset. 'It's so much more' is an essential part of that 'time for the jedi to end' statement.
Edit: Damnit always too slow.
Chuckie
Member
Because I think the term Jedi is too 'valuable' in the SW universe. It is even a pseudo-religion in some countries.
If I had to bet whether they keep Jedi's in the SW future or not, I'd bet they would. However I wouldn't bet a lot of money on it because like I said I could be wrong.
I think including Jedi in SW Rebels for instance is a big indicator. Up until that point, the Jedi were supposed to be dead, Luke being the first one since the Empire killed all but Yoda and Obi wan. Yet here we are with 1 1/2 Jedi walking around in a cartoon.
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
What is the "corporate reality"?
This WHOLE thing started because one person said ending the Jedi/Sith was a ploy by Disney to give everyone Force powers and lightsabers as a toy selling scheme and another one bringing up some mythical Disney commitee making all of the creative decisions, followed myself and others countering those posts and elaborating on Lucasfilm's autonomy.
Then we have you and others coming in and saying "Well Lucasfilm IS Disney so technically Disney IS in control, and Bob's actually all controlling it anyway, except he's controlling it all by choosing NOT to control it, but he would control it if one of the most prolific producers in history decided to green light Space Care Bears for $250 million. Denialist, astroturfing fanboys!"
Which, ok. Sure. Whatever.
Moving on.
But you don't think it's disingenuous to refer to all movies under the umbrella of Disney as simply Disney movies? The creative process/corporate involvement isn't the same across the board.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Trying to determine whether the term "jedi" will survive from a marketing standpoint instead of a storytelling one doesn't seem all that great a route to take, to me.
Movie's called "The Last Jedi"
Luke seems to not want the old order to continue anymore.
Whatever happens next, will the word disappear from the lexicon, or even the fictional universe being shown to us? Doubtful. Will the definition of it change? Probably. As it is, we can't really pin down what "jedi" means with any real specificity, it seems. The discussion goes as long as it does because a) we're nitpicky as shit and b) there's just enough vagueness and 40 years of details to indulge that nitpicky inclination.
Rey is going to be a Force user. Maybe Finn will, too (who knows!) Will the term Jedi be applied to her? Will she claim it for herself? Maybe.
I think it's definite that Johnson is going to use this chapter to raise more than a few interesting questions for Trevorrow to try answering.
Movie's called "The Last Jedi"
Luke seems to not want the old order to continue anymore.
Whatever happens next, will the word disappear from the lexicon, or even the fictional universe being shown to us? Doubtful. Will the definition of it change? Probably. As it is, we can't really pin down what "jedi" means with any real specificity, it seems. The discussion goes as long as it does because a) we're nitpicky as shit and b) there's just enough vagueness and 40 years of details to indulge that nitpicky inclination.
Rey is going to be a Force user. Maybe Finn will, too (who knows!) Will the term Jedi be applied to her? Will she claim it for herself? Maybe.
I think it's definite that Johnson is going to use this chapter to raise more than a few interesting questions for Trevorrow to try answering.
molnizzle
Member
I'm a realist. So both jaded and cynical when it comes to capitalism, yes. Guilty as charged.
Honestly, I'm just sick of all the "no Lucasfilm" correction posts (usually with a pic of your own face) every time somebody correctly attributes a Star Wars related decision to Disney. It's pretentious as fuck and comes across as either astroturfing or fanboy denial.
I'm sorry, felllow nerds, but Disney owns Lucasfilm now. They're the same goddamn thing.
The only thing I really do believe in this whole astroturf business is that it's a tragedy we never had David Bowie as a lone galactic being on some planet somewhere in these movies.
Although a standalone, exceptionally well written/produced Doctor Who episode might have been more fitting for that. Opposite Capaldi, ideally.
Although a standalone, exceptionally well written/produced Doctor Who episode might have been more fitting for that. Opposite Capaldi, ideally.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Come the fuck on
It's an incorrect attribution in most cases, and if you're annoyed by my presence just put me on ignore. That it took you like 15 posts to just own the very simple (and very obvious) fact I personally bug you is weak as shit.
Further, your posts in the last two pages display a level of open pretension on a level I've never actually attained, so if you're seeking to become the annoying man you behold, congratulations. The circle is now complete. You are the master.
Finn is gonna be force sensitive. Just not in the same exact way as Rey, IMO. It's happening
Thus coma shit is to throw everybody off
Chuckie
Member
Why not though? I do think it has an influence
I agree with this. I never claimed the definition would be the exact same.
Edit: What is astroturfing?
Sapiens
Member
David Bowie playing Nikola Tesla in a movie about dealing magicians directed by Chris Nolan was enough of a statistical improbability for me in one lifetime.
bonesmccoy
Banned
hot take
Luke says that stuff about the Jedi early on the film. Rey wants him to train her, and he doesn't want to because the last time he took keen interest in that kind of thing, he unleashed a patricidal maniac upon the galaxy. Rey marysues him so hard that he ends up relenting et viola! we get a training montage.
Luke says that stuff about the Jedi early on the film. Rey wants him to train her, and he doesn't want to because the last time he took keen interest in that kind of thing, he unleashed a patricidal maniac upon the galaxy. Rey marysues him so hard that he ends up relenting et viola! we get a training montage.
AntraxSuicide
Banned
Pretty sure accusations like this are bannable, certainly with nothing but conspiracy rants as evidence.
Killer Queen
Banned
See, the problem I have with this line of thinking is that it operates under the idea that "Things always will be because that's how they always have been" without understanding the need for change.
The term itself is only valuable, because of Star Wars status as a pop culture icon and it didn't get to where it is over night, the term Jedi is only in the common lexicon because again, it was marketed and hammered into the minds of everyone from products, TV, etc over many many years, four whole decades now. Nearly half a century.
But when you do the same thing for nearly half a century, things get old and stale, and that's why things need to evolve. Comic book characters now are often different from their original iterations in fundamental ways, superheroes change over time and no one has any issue with it, some of these new characters become pop culture icons over time, because they're marketed across many forms of media, and arguably today with the way we access information this happens a lot faster than it used to.
Before Nightwing was Nightwing, he was Robin, Harlequin didn't always exist and the latter was featured in a movie that brought in 800mil and is getting their own spin off movie. Nightwing is fairly popular in his own right because of how he's pushed across different mediums, he's even become Batman multiple times and no ones stopped and said "Well, we can't do that, because Bruce Wayne is Batman and he always has to be Batman" and no one knew the Gaurdians of the Galaxy or Suicide Squad outside of a select few, and now both of those are pop culture icons regardless of anyones opinion on their quality.
People will accept it as long as its pushed and marketed to them, because at the end of the day its fiction, there's nothing stopping them from changing anything or doing new things and only a small minority is going to be opposed to it. Comic books haven't lasted as long as they have by telling the same stories over and over again verbatim. Yes, sometimes they do, but they also change things a lot, add new things to the mix, change characters, have one character adopt the superhero persona of another, have events, etc and that's how they stay relevant and popular, because things move forward and there ends up being something for everybody. Someone might not like one particular imagining of a character or a story, but for every one they don't there's probably two or three that are different. Star Wars needs this kind of change and variety, right now it's lacking.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This doesn't seem like such a hot ta—
—Oh THERE it is!
I'm really hoping for this. The two big things I was hoping for in Episode 8 were "Luke decides abandoning the Jedi is the right move" and "Finn discovers he can tap into the Force"
It's when companies pay people to spread their message without disclosing that they are spreading the companies' message, which seems an awful big leap to make in this thread, or just completely inaccurate. Unless people are actually suggesting some of us here are being secretly paid by Disney to say that Disney isn't exerting complete and total control over every creative decision that Lucasfilm makes on this message board.
So you're saying you wanted her faster and more intense?
Because that's definitely what we're getting.
Sapiens
Member
It will take a lot to convince me that Disney did not in fact buy Lucasfilm, but if want to message the mods to get me banned for it, so be it, I'm on my last warning and you'll be rid of me forever.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I also like the semi-Bride of Frankenstein hair they gave her.
Killer Queen
Banned
I'd also really like for Finn to be force sensitive, but I kind of have my doubts if he's going to be away from all the force stuff for the whole film.
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
Enough of this Jedi/Sith bickering.
I'm super excited and hopeful that Episode 8 will finally put The Gray at the forefront of Star Wars lore and canon.
I'm super excited and hopeful that Episode 8 will finally put The Gray at the forefront of Star Wars lore and canon.
peppermints
Member
All this talk about Luke's academy.. refresh my memory - is it actually mentioned in TFA that Luke led a jedi academy that failed? Or is that speculation on why he's a loner now.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
True, his being separated from Rey/Chewie/Luke/Artoo for most of the movie (if that is how it plays out, and I can't imagine it won't) could make that harder, but then again, it could end up prompting a situation where he makes this discovery on his own in a very specific (to him) set of circumstances.
I do get the sense the storylines are going to be split as such (no spoils, just pure spec)
Rey/Luke/Chewie/Artoo - on the island
Finn/Rose - some adventure somwhere (probably with Benicio Del Toro)
Poe/Leia/Laura Dern - The Resistance
Kylo/Snoke/Knights of Ren will be concerned with the first set. Phasma/Hux will be concerned with the second two sets.
How they all meet up by the end (if they do) should be interesting.
Yeah, it's mentioned that Luke had a temple/school, and Kylo got sent to it, and then Kylo wrecked it, so Luke left. I don't think it's mentioned all in the same scene, but the information is present.
Killer Queen
Banned
I know you're kidding but, while there's a chance that his force powers awaken while he's out doing stuff. From a storytelling perspective you'd want his journey to be related to what he's doing and if you have one section of the story focused on the force and the other focused on the resistance and the first order, you'd want the force people in one section and the non force people in the other. Because it makes sense, at least that's my opinion,
Yeah these are pretty much my exact thoughts too.
It's also mentioned in the books that Snoke told Kylo Ren to fuck them up, and that he slaughtered everyone at the academy but Luke.
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
Literally no one has argued against this but you do you.
molnizzle
Member
It's not an incorrect attribution. Ever.
Disney own the damn company. Anything that can be attributed to Lucasfilm can be attributed to Disney. Lucasfilm is Disney. Factually. They're one and the same.
Whether or not Disney should be attributed over Lucasfilm is irrelevant. It's just not "incorrect" if they are.
You don't personally bug me. The constant Lucasfilm correctionism bugs me, and you just happen to be the ringleader.
The exact quote from the movie is Han saying "He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible He walked away from everything."
This discussion has run its course (annoyingly so, again and again, in multiple threads), so I have do desire to extend it, but I have to say that I'm with you here. The pushback on this (complete non) issue is faaaar more prevalent and annoying than people who refer to the subsidiary as the parent company in the first place. And you're right - no matter how much autonomy Disney gives Lucasfilm/Marvel/Pixar, and by all accounts its a lot, that can all change in a heartbeat if Disney becomes unhappy with one of their IP's financial performance or creative direction. Of fucking course they are letting Lucasfilm/Marvel/Pixar do their own thing, have you seen the box office returns for their movies? I have no business management background whatsoever, and even I could tell you that the best way to manage those companies at present is to let them do what they are doing. Which is what is happening. But that can also change at any time, because Disney owns Lucasfilm/Marvel/Pixar, and because Lucasfilm/Marvel/Pixar are Disney. So unless you work for Lucasfilm and are personally offended by the gross, libelous misuse of corporate names on the Neo Gaming Age Forums, in the words on one Han Solo, "who gives a shit?"
Bobby Roberts
Banned
They are two distinct filmmaking studios, Mol. Disney is not Lucasfilm. They are not one and the same. Lucasfilm is not Pixar. Pixar is not Walt Disney Studios. Walt Disney Studios is not Marvel. Marvel is not Lucasfilm. None of these companies are interchangeable as filmmaking entities.
Is this the single distinction that keeps fucking you up? Really?
The Walt Disney Company and Lucasfilm are not interchangeable entities. Walt Disney Studios and Lucasfilm are also not interchangeable. Your simplistic view on this, while understandable, is not correct. That people keep correcting this in the thread especially as it pertains to smaller creative decisions being made in the storytelling (and not larger corporate ones) shouldn't be annoying you as much as it does, and probably would cease to annoy you that much if you simply chose to acknowledge the possibility your viewpoint on this is incorrect. You've already admitted to the jaded/cynical nature of it, but that seems to be as far as it will go, and is only being done under the guise that owning said cynicism is evidence of a well-informed and enlightened viewpoint. You could also acknowledge that your dismissal of any other evidence contrary to that viewpoint as "PR" is probably (definitely) mistaken and maybe then the annoyance would lessen a little.
But you won't, and you don't, and so the presence of other people making this distinction is going to continue annoying you, to the point where you're willing to subscribe to the ridiculous (and I had assumed satirically presented) notion that people at the Walt Disney Company are setting aside marketing budget dollars to pay messageboard/reddit posters to pursue these corrections.
Dunno how else to help you here.
The corrections are happening simply because they tend to get at the core cynicism and oversimplistic "analysis" that tends to derail conversation, as I mentioned at the top of the thread.
Deflating bad narratives helps conversation. It doesn't hinder it. It only becomes annoying when you recognize your clinging to the shit narrative isn't helping you but you'd rather not have to let go of it.
Like, I always use Lucasfilm, because I know who made the movies, but I am not about to get bent out of shape if someone says Disney. If someone referred to Sony or MGM instead of EON as being the creative force behind James Bond, well that wouldn't ruffle my feathers either. Life is filled with swords worthy to die upon, but that is not one of them.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
The corrections are, at this point, more in-joke than anything else. Like Bronson being an elf, and blame space being a person, or you being the "bond expert" though.
Most people know/understand what's what. It's typically only in really persistent, earnest misunderstandings being applied to an argument that it goes any farther than the ha-ha.
Hence, this discussion you just extended despite not wanting to do that.
Most people know/understand what's what. It's typically only in really persistent, earnest misunderstandings being applied to an argument that it goes any farther than the ha-ha.
Hence, this discussion you just extended despite not wanting to do that.
Who is dying on swords besides the people who REALLY want to make sure everyone agrees that Disney are making these films and not LucasFilm? At this point in Star Wars threads, it's a meme to point out whenever someone says Disney, it's just a joke.
Usually, though, no one makes it a point to disagree with the people making the joke, there's usually no hills and no one dying. Usually.
To be clear and I'm not sure if it's related to the above post but whilst I admire the emphasis of Lucasfilm as it's own "entity", which it is, the heads of Lucasfilm answer to the mandate set by Disney. A simple view is Disney have tasked Lucasfilm (Kennedy?) to deliver x number of 2 hour commercials, sorry films, to drive merchandise sales to make good on that 4 billion dollar investment. Kennedy & Co have done a superb job on delivering results thus far and the overall marketing strategy has been exemplary.
Shame about the committee led commercials however.
YES! It's sad to consider how much of the mysticism surrounding the Jedi was just smashed by the prequels. Even to someone like me who doesn't really classify the films as my own personal Star Wars cannon, the fact I've seen those films has tainted what my view of the Jedi are. The damage has been done but there's hope these films can help get us back to something interesting and magical again.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Not a fan of Force Awakens & Rogue One?
I thought they were both the best entries into this series since 1980.
Discotheque
Banned
Rogue One suuucked. for a little while I even mulled over whether or not I found Attack of the Clones better.
peppermints
Member
Thanks. I remember that now.
Killer Queen
Banned
Rogue One slander will not be tolerated.
But anyway I'm sure that Episode 8 is going to get deep into force based Mysticism. At least it's been described as such.
Luke and Rey are at the first Jedi Temple, Snoke is a shady force user.
There's also this, which I'm fairly sure came from a rumor rather than a leak but, spoiler tagging it anyway. Apparently there's a bit where
or something like that. So this movie is going to do some cool stuff and like I said, likely redefine a lot of Star Wars.
But anyway I'm sure that Episode 8 is going to get deep into force based Mysticism. At least it's been described as such.
Luke and Rey are at the first Jedi Temple, Snoke is a shady force user.
There's also this, which I'm fairly sure came from a rumor rather than a leak but, spoiler tagging it anyway. Apparently there's a bit where
Luke and Rey walk through the force
molnizzle
Member
I'm sure I'm not the only one who finds it annoying. Most people would just rather not pester the NeoGAF hive into battle. I guess I just l lack that gene.
You're correct that the different Disney studios are not interchangeable.
You're incorrect in that they can't all be attributed to Disney.
They're all subsidiaries. They're all Disney. Lucasfilm isn't Marvel and Marvel isn't Lucasfilm—but both Lucasfilm and Marvel are Disney. That's how subsidiaries work.
You may find it distasteful for people to attribute Lucasfilm's successes (or failures) to Disney, but such attributions are not incorrect. Period.
As someone who just saw the movie again the other day, I can confirm that this is in fact not correct. I got the documentation to prove it.
Don't think I forgot about you 
I thought what you were saying is that the Jedi stuff that happened in the PT is irrelevant, moving forward with TLJ and EP9. Ok.
The point I am trying to make is that Luke is far different from Jedi in the PT and that he paves his own path by defying his masters to do what he feels is right. You originally said that Luke's version of being a Jedi wasn't really any different from the Jedi found in the PT. That's wildly incorrect. He created his own version of what it means to be a Jedi, knowingly or not. He largely paves his own path.
There's a few things happening here (judging by the quotes you pulled):
In the TFA novelization, are you thinking "Leia was aware of the influence Snoke could have on her son" means she discovered Snoke through the force? Because all I'm reading that as is: she is force sensitive, so she has an obligation to protect her son from dark forces (Snoke); that doesn't mean she DISCOVERED WHO HE IS via the force. I'm sure she didn't LEARN OF HIS EXISTENCE through the force itself. I bet she discovered this from other information.
In addition, that is a really interesting quote you included from Aftermath. Notice how not once Snoke is mentioned in that excerpt though? Sure, she is SENSING that someone is "watching" them, but she even outright asks "who is watching us?" So she may be sensing someone using dark powers on her but she has no idea who it is.
Presumably, even Yoda knew who Leia and Luke were before sensing them through the force; I'm sure he discovered this via Obi-Wan. I could be wrong on that though.
Either way: both YODA and the EMPEROR (the midichlorian shit is a slippery slope), who are arguably the most knowledgeable and powerful force users in canon content (considering we know almost nothing about Snoke), could only sense that there was OFFSPRING, not specifically who it was (again, I'm assuming Yoda knew specifically who Luke/Leia were from communing with Obi-Wan). A disturbance through the force notified the emperor; only then could he even see that there was offspring of Anakin Skywalker. The destruction of the death star set this discovery in motion.
Unless there's more information out there, we have no idea how Snoke discovered that Leia was pregnant with Ben. He may have learned it through the force, he may have discovered it via more conventional means. Authors often utilize their own creative decisions that might not completely line up with the main films. I wanna wait until the next film hits for more clarification on how Snoke discovered and influenced Ben.
If we look at the OT, Vader couldn't even sense that he had a son, even when he came in contact with Luke (in ANH). The emperor literally had to tell him that there were offspring of Skywalker that were in existence, ONLY after the event that pushed those force visions forward (the destruction of the death star).
In the shows or main films, I don't believe we have ever seen a force user "discover" someone's identity via ONLY using the force.
Anyway.. I don't believe Luke would simply know when Rey was born. Remember -- the film is called THE FORCE AWAKENS. This happens when Rey starts fucking shit up in EP7. Why would we assume that he's able to create a super strong connection through the force and not only be aware of Rey's birth but know where she's at? When the force has been dormant (in terms of large, force driven events) for years?
I thought what you were saying is that the Jedi stuff that happened in the PT is irrelevant, moving forward with TLJ and EP9. Ok.
The point I am trying to make is that Luke is far different from Jedi in the PT and that he paves his own path by defying his masters to do what he feels is right. You originally said that Luke's version of being a Jedi wasn't really any different from the Jedi found in the PT. That's wildly incorrect. He created his own version of what it means to be a Jedi, knowingly or not. He largely paves his own path.
There's a few things happening here (judging by the quotes you pulled):
In the TFA novelization, are you thinking "Leia was aware of the influence Snoke could have on her son" means she discovered Snoke through the force? Because all I'm reading that as is: she is force sensitive, so she has an obligation to protect her son from dark forces (Snoke); that doesn't mean she DISCOVERED WHO HE IS via the force. I'm sure she didn't LEARN OF HIS EXISTENCE through the force itself. I bet she discovered this from other information.
In addition, that is a really interesting quote you included from Aftermath. Notice how not once Snoke is mentioned in that excerpt though? Sure, she is SENSING that someone is "watching" them, but she even outright asks "who is watching us?" So she may be sensing someone using dark powers on her but she has no idea who it is.
Presumably, even Yoda knew who Leia and Luke were before sensing them through the force; I'm sure he discovered this via Obi-Wan. I could be wrong on that though.
Either way: both YODA and the EMPEROR (the midichlorian shit is a slippery slope), who are arguably the most knowledgeable and powerful force users in canon content (considering we know almost nothing about Snoke), could only sense that there was OFFSPRING, not specifically who it was (again, I'm assuming Yoda knew specifically who Luke/Leia were from communing with Obi-Wan). A disturbance through the force notified the emperor; only then could he even see that there was offspring of Anakin Skywalker. The destruction of the death star set this discovery in motion.
Unless there's more information out there, we have no idea how Snoke discovered that Leia was pregnant with Ben. He may have learned it through the force, he may have discovered it via more conventional means. Authors often utilize their own creative decisions that might not completely line up with the main films. I wanna wait until the next film hits for more clarification on how Snoke discovered and influenced Ben.
If we look at the OT, Vader couldn't even sense that he had a son, even when he came in contact with Luke (in ANH). The emperor literally had to tell him that there were offspring of Skywalker that were in existence, ONLY after the event that pushed those force visions forward (the destruction of the death star).
In the shows or main films, I don't believe we have ever seen a force user "discover" someone's identity via ONLY using the force.
Anyway.. I don't believe Luke would simply know when Rey was born. Remember -- the film is called THE FORCE AWAKENS. This happens when Rey starts fucking shit up in EP7. Why would we assume that he's able to create a super strong connection through the force and not only be aware of Rey's birth but know where she's at? When the force has been dormant (in terms of large, force driven events) for years?
brandonh83
Banned
- Status