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[Chmpocalypse]

I would put it this way: There may very well have been a dude, even by the same name, who was acting in ways similar to the descriptions in the bible. Meaning, he was kind of a revolutionary? A troublemaker for his time maybe.

We have to seperate the possible real person of "Jesus" from 2000 years ago and the fictional son of god described in the bible though.

Sure, there may have been someone that inspired the mythology. But all the people claiming "he's got the most evidence of anyone ever" fail to produce any actual evidence, except for known forgeries, after-the-alleged-fact hearsay about what other people stated about his purported existence (which is not corroborating evidence), or the mythology itself (which is the equivalent of saying Grimm's fairy tales prove Hansel and Gretel existed).

His existence is, in fact, debatable and debated.

 

[Izuna]

That's quite an interesting anecdote, I can somewhat understand Jesus being more famous than Mohammed in Japan. Also the idea that Islam may be more famous than Mohammed himself in countries with a small amount of muslims.

A lot of Japanese after WW2 were taught to be protestant; culturally, while Christmas is not an official holiday, it's understood and practised on a surface level in the society.

My anecdote comes from when I was sort of surprised that there are people who know about the Easter Bunny and Jesus but don't know why easter is celebrated in a religious sense.

If we really want to talk about Japan (which would be off-topic), there's an influence of Christianity going back hundreds of years, with a rumoured descendant of Toyotomi on the verge of the Edo period practically qualifying to be a saint among Japanese Christians.

Buddist, Shinto religion is everywhere in Japan, but the idea of a Japanese citizen not knowing who Jesus is would be just as bizarre as in some western countries.

This may be a coincidence but I think every South Korean person I spoke to believed in the Abrahamic God. But that's a sample size of like a dozen, lol.

~~

 

[capitalCORN]

Sure, there may have been someone that inspired the mythology. But all the people claiming "he's got the most evidence of anyone ever" fail to produce any actual evidence, except for known forgeries, after-the-alleged-fact hearsay about what other people stated about his purported existence (which is not corroborating evidence), or the mythology itself (which is the equivalent of saying Grimm's fairy tales prove Hansel and Gretel existed).

His existence is, in fact, debatable and debated.

Shame about the immaculate conception, and the resurrection. Seems like no trace at all!

 

[Heartfyre]

I think the bolded qualify as american and british history first and foremost. Pretty sure most of Africa / South America / Asia have no idea who they were, and even some parts of Europe as well.

I would argue that the prevailing anglocentricism of the past century goes a long way to casting a spotlight on them; particularly Lincoln, whose influence is tied into most emancipation narratives. Churchill has WW2-cred, which gives him a resounding legacy worldwide, being at least as famous as other leaders of the period, like Emperor Hirohito.

 

[capitalCORN]

A lot of Japanese after WW2 were taught to be protestant; culturally, while Christmas is not an official holiday, it's understood and practised on a surface level in the society.

My anecdote comes from when I was sort of surprised that there are people who know about the Easter Bunny and Jesus but don't know why easter is celebrated in a religious sense.

If we really want to talk about Japan (which would be off-topic), there's an influence of Christianity going back hundreds of years, with a rumoured descendant of Toyotomi on the verge of the Edo period practically qualifying to be a saint among Japanese Christians.

Buddist, Shinto religion is everywhere in Japan, but the idea of a Japanese citizen not knowing who Jesus is would be just as bizarre as in some western countries.

This may be a coincidence but I think every South Korean person I spoke to believed in the Abrahamic God. But that's a sample size of like a dozen, lol.

~~

The Japanese have been westaboos since at least Datsu-A-Ron. And if you spoke to any Koreans in the west, the majority of immigrants are Christian.

 

[Metroxed]

Religious figure : Jesus
Historical figure : Hitler
Entertainer : Michael Jackson
Sportstar : Mohamed Ali
Scientist : Einstein

I can back this list.

I can't, it is ridiculously Western-centric.

 

[capitalCORN]

I can't, it is ridiculously Western-centric.

You don't get it. Western hegemony is so complete, the rest of the world is joined at the hip!

 

[Chipotle]

I think probably Jesus but Gandhi must be in the top 10

 

[Izuna]

The Japanese have been westaboos since at least Datsu-A-Ron. And if you spoke to any Koreans in the west, the majority of immigrants are Christian.

Not Korean immigrants, natives from Seoul. Like, devout, cross wearing.

I worked with a Korean girl in London (working holiday) who hit me with the "pray to God" in a text all of a sudden like it's super normal. I went on OkCupid and started asking random Korean girls if they were religious that night. haha

I know barely anything about Korean culture but I imagine that because of US Army bases there is a lot of Christianity leaking into the country.

 

[Charles Brandon]

In vaguely related news I was once in Singapore with a few hours to kill. My chums and I were wondering around a mall when we came across the most enormous queue stretching all over the ground floor, up to the next level, all round that, up to the top level and into one of the shops there. We followed it up to the top floor. Anticipation mounted. Was it someone famous? Royalty? No. It was a fucking church.

 

[4Tran]

Tsar literally translates to Caesar lol.

So does Kaiser. Still, the point stands that Alexander is pretty well known of in Central Asia and India, while Julius Caesar is more obscure.

I imagine that Jesus is far more known than Mohammed.

I think the fact that Islam exists is more famous than Mohammed.

At least, that's my experience of talking to Japanese people.

To my knowledge, Muslims learn about Jesus as well, so he's going to be more famous than Mohammed. However, see the problem below:

I would put it this way: There may very well have been a dude, even by the same name, who was acting in ways similar to the descriptions in the bible. Meaning, he was kind of a revolutionary? A troublemaker for his time maybe.

We have to seperate the possible real person of "Jesus" from 2000 years ago and the fictional son of god described in the bible though.

Pretty much. What we know about Jesus is the mythological and religious figure, but almost nothing about the real person, or even if there was a real person. It's hard to be thought of as a famous person if nobody knows what you did or even what your name was. I'd say that Jesus would be the second most famous figure (the first being the Abrahamic god), but he's extremely obscure as an actual person.

 

[capitalCORN]

Not Korean immigrants, natives from Seoul. Like, devout, cross wearing.

I worked with a Korean girl in London (working holiday) who hit me with the "pray to God" in a text all of a sudden like it's super normal. I went on OkCupid and started asking random Korean girls if they were religious that night. haha

I know barely anything about Korean culture but I imagine that because of US Army bases there is a lot of Christianity leaking into the country.

Well, unlike China, we didn't murder the missionaries wholesale. The religious are divided between Christianity and Buddhism. There is, like Japan, a significant irreligious portion, enough to become an equal player in the pie chart. Much of the tradition and society is still rooted in Confusian roots. I'd be much happier if they weren't. But that's a scar that's going to wear for a long time still.

 

[JaseMath]

Jesus or Einstein.

 

[kswiston]

Wanna ask any bumpkin from Guangzhou about Jesus? Maybe do a street survey in Pune?

Have you been to those areas are are you just making assumptions? Both have Christians, and would have been visited by Christian missionaries in recent years. Both have Muslim populations too (Pune is over 10% Muslim). The two newer Abrahamic religions are good at spreading themselves.

 

[hollomat]

Not really, but it doesn't stop people from claiming there's "tons of evidence" (there isn't). Mohammed has far more actual evidence to support his existence.

There is tons of evidence. Not sure why you're so convinced there isn't.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

 

[Adam_Vania]

I'd say that Jesus would be the second most famous figure (the first being the Abrahamic god), but he's extremely obscure as an actual person.

but the Abrahamic God is not a person. and if he is he is personified as Jesus.

"God" is a fuzzy term anyways, thanks to Western hegemony many translations of spiritual literature from all over the world translate various concepts as "God". this does not necessarily mean they are 1:1 with the Abrahamic God but that they possibly identify with the (by nature incoherent and abstract) qualities they are describing.

some Buddhist/Hindu sects even include Jesus as an avatar of Vishnu, the supreme being. the idea that God is a root cause that can emanate into an infinity of forms and names, is something no "person" can really claim to do.

 

[kramer]

Jesus has to be number one in terms of 'famous' i.e. known - he is a prophet of Islam too, of course.

However it's amazing The Queen has not appeared more in this thread.

She's Head of the Commonwealth and therefore 2.3 billion people. She has the longevity of 60+ years on her side and, well everyone knows Queen Elizabeth II even if she is not Head of their state.

The US-centric sports and music stars in this thread are hilarious - over Jesus, Hitler and The Queen.

 

[What did he mean by this?]

Isnt Mohammad the most used name on the planet? That guy

 

[Frost_Ace]

Hitler, Jesus and Buddha are the first ones that I thought about.

 

[capitalCORN]

Have you been to those areas are are you just making assumptions? Both have Christians, and would have been visited by Christian missionaries in recent years. Both have Muslim populations too (Pune is over 10% Muslim). The two newer Abrahamic religions are good at spreading themselves.

Like you aren't pulling shit out of the internet as well. At least I argue the majority:

http://www.censusindia.co.in/district/pune-district-maharashtra-521
]http://alonsoflores-noel.weebly.com/religion.html

You might as well be selling time shares.

 

[Lovely Salsa]

Hitler, Jesus and Buddha are the first ones that I thought about.

Add robin hood to the list

 

[bonesmccoy]

I'd say Jesus? At least a third of the world has heard of him.

If we're talking more recent figures, it's Cristiano Ronaldo. THE Ronaldo.

 

[digdug2k]

Jesus has to be number one in terms of 'famous', however it's amazing The Queen has not appeared more in this thread.

She's Head of the Commonwealth and therefore 2.3 billion people. She has the longevity of 60+ years on her side and, well everyone knows Queen Elizabeth II even if she is not Head of their state.

The US-centric sports and music stars in this thread are hilarious, over Jesus, Hitler and The Queen.

I dunno. I bet there are large parts of the world where huge numbers of people have no idea who Jesus is, but know Buddha or Confucius intimately, while I think you'd have a harder time finding people who know who Jesus is, but don't know the other two.

 

[What did he mean by this?]

Add robin hood to the list

Dont forget Superman

 

[Berto]

Jesus of Nazareth, Muhammad and Julius Caesar. These are guys that lived thousands of years ago and shaped humanity.

People like Hitler are central figures in modern history, but 2000 years in the future they will be more or less just a footnote in history.

 

[Izuna]

.

I don't understand the argument tho. Even Christians debate the role Jesus actually had and what he could do.

Like, there are people who believe Drake writes his lyrics. It still count as them knowing about him.

 

[4Tran]

but the Abrahamic God is not a person. and if he is he is personified as Jesus.

"God" is a fuzzy term anyways, thanks to Western hegemony many translations of spiritual literature from all over the world translate various concepts as "God". this does not necessarily mean they are 1:1 with the Abrahamic God but that they possibly identify with the (by nature incoherent and abstract) qualities they are describing.

some Buddhist/Hindu sects even include Jesus as an avatar of Vishnu, the supreme being. the idea that God is a root cause that can emanate into an infinity of forms and names, is something no "person" can really claim to do.

I didn't write person; I wrote "figure" for a reason. And realistically, the mythological Jesus isn't a person either. The historical Jesus would be a person, but nobody knows anything about him beyond the fact that he probably existed.

 

[dan2026]

Dont forget Superman

For fictional characters I doubt there are many more ubiquitously known than Superman.
Mickey Mouse maybe.

 

[DogDude]

Trump is probably nearing top 10 status.

 

[MetalGearZed]

Aiden Pierce

 

[The Scrivener]

Hitler.

 

[Thelonelykoopa]

Aiden Pierce

He not really famous only his hat.

 

[perfectchaos007]

Only because he is the the Quran. Otherwise it's be Muhammad by a landslide.

You do realize Christianity has more followers than Islam

 

[4Tran]

For fictional characters I doubt there are many more ubiquitously known than Superman.
Mickey Mouse maybe.

The most famous fictional character is probably Sherlock Holmes.

 

[ZOONAMI]

I suppose Hitler and Trump are infamous, not famous.

 

[True Savior]

Yuzo Koshiro

 

[entremet]

I can't, it is ridiculously Western-centric.

Of course. We're Westerners.

 

[capitalCORN]

You do realize Christianity has more followers than Islam

You're all arguing the endemic instead of the pandemic. Middle Eastern history is not the totality of the world, if you didn't notice. There's vast swaths of world, who's experiences are shared and mutual, well beyond the current order of the world.

Of course. We're Westerners.

And you're willing to live with your preconceptions because you don't know, or accept better. There's words for each of those.

Edit: And if people are willing to say Jesus, I'lll say Bodhi Dharma

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

Shakespeare. Chinese know Shakespeare just by his English name. Not so with Jesus, actually.

 

[Cocaloch]

This is why the science naturalists aren't as smart as they think they are, and in many ways are hypocritical. They purport they value "evidence" and "science" until it goes against their worldview. But mention climate change and all bets are off.

Hahahahaha

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with "science naturalism", but yes there are a lot of problems with people basically turning science into a religion. It's hypocritical because they often don't apply critical thought to their understanding of science and tend to ignore the history of science, the philosophy of science, and the sociology of scientific knowledge while decrying religion for the same issues.

or that the actual first or second hand accounts of Caesar are limited to a tiny handful of orators whose words were transcribed by anonymous people lost to history.

Uhh what about the Commentarii de Bello Gallico...

The bible proves the existence of Jesus the same way Star Wars proves Darth Vader is real. In other words, it's not evidence.

Do you know how history works as a discipline?

Sure, there may have been someone that inspired the mythology. But all the people claiming "he's got the most evidence of anyone ever" fail to produce any actual evidence, except for known forgeries, after-the-alleged-fact hearsay about what other people stated about his purported existence (which is not corroborating evidence), or the mythology itself (which is the equivalent of saying Grimm's fairy tales prove Hansel and Gretel existed).

His existence is, in fact, debatable and debated.

No it's not. A major part of historical methodology involves examining the source itself and making arguments about what the fact that it is a source means.




I have never seen a thread with as many drive by shit posts as this one though. So that's fun.

 

[kswiston]

Like you aren't pulling shit out of the internet as well. At least I argue the majority:

http://www.censusindia.co.in/district/pune-district-maharashtra-521
]http://alonsoflores-noel.weebly.com/religion.html

You might as well be selling time shares.

I don't have to argue a majority since some awareness is all that is required to meet what we are talking about in this thread. You don't have to be Christian or Muslim to know of Jesus or Muhammad. Do you think that a significant number of adults have never heard of Christianity and Jesus in Pune?

 

[HarryDemeanor]

John Cena.

 

[capitalCORN]

I don't have to argue a majority since some awareness is all that is required to meet what we are talking about in this thread. You don't have to be Christian or Muslim to know of Jesus or Muhammad. Do you think that a significant number of adults have never heard of Christianity and Jesus in Pune?

And how much more significant the number would it be than those who know Siddhartha Gautama (Aka, Buddha)? A man who shares history with the vast majority of Asia, and a name who the West shamelessly cop for their contortions.

 

[legend166]

This is why the science naturalists aren't as smart as they think they are, and in many ways are hypocritical. They purport they value "evidence" and "science" until it goes against their worldview. But mention climate change and all bets are off.

Hahahahaha

Ain't that the truth.

 

[Apzu]

A lot of Japanese after WW2 were taught to be protestant; culturally, while Christmas is not an official holiday, it's understood and practised on a surface level in the society.

My anecdote comes from when I was sort of surprised that there are people who know about the Easter Bunny and Jesus but don't know why easter is celebrated in a religious sense.

If we really want to talk about Japan (which would be off-topic), there's an influence of Christianity going back hundreds of years, with a rumoured descendant of Toyotomi on the verge of the Edo period practically qualifying to be a saint among Japanese Christians.

Buddist, Shinto religion is everywhere in Japan, but the idea of a Japanese citizen not knowing who Jesus is would be just as bizarre as in some western countries.

This may be a coincidence but I think every South Korean person I spoke to believed in the Abrahamic God. But that's a sample size of like a dozen, lol.

Very interesting stuff, thank you. I did know that christianity could be traced back to a few hundred years in Japan, because of the portuguese who got there before the country closed its border. I didn't know so many of them would know the meaning of christmas, I'd think it would be more like what you described about easter.

Isnt Mohammad the most used name on the planet? That guy

In a way I think it's the most used name because people don't really name their children jesus in most european languages. I think most people named jesus nowadays would be found in spanish or portuguese speaking countries.

 

[Chocolate & Vanilla]

Ronald McDonald

 

[n00bsauce87]

Jesus Christ by a landslide

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Do you require as much contemporary evidence of other ancient historical figures as you require of Jesus? If you do, it might be so that you should stop believing in the existence of several of them too.

Such as?

Also, for the 235436th time, I don't make the claim that there was no historical Jesus, only that it is disputable.

But cue all the shitposters going "lol the edge" and "m'lady fedora" and so on, because it wouldn't be GAF without all the drive-by I guess.

Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

It's not even close, guys. People all over the world have no idea who Beyonce and Ronaldo are. Everywhere from Africa to Europe to the Americas and most parts of Asia have heard of Jesus.

I have no fucking idea who "Ronaldo" is, that's for sure.

Isn't it hilarious how atheists and their science value "evidence" and "rational discourse" but try to convince themselves, against all evidence of pretty much every historian, that Jesus wasn't real? Amazing look at the human mind.

What's more hilarious is people making up strawman and then acting smug and superior when they take them down. It sure shows them to be petty, small-minded individuals, anyway.

 

[Airola]

The bible proves the existence of Jesus the same way Star Wars proves Darth Vader is real. In other words, it's not evidence.

Wow, did you even read what I had written?

There are 66 different letters and writings in the Bible. They were all separated from each other. They were all individual writings written by lots of different people. Some of them are stories. Some of them are regular letters written by regular persons in a same way you would write a letter to someone.

They were later collected in one collection which became to be the Bible.

Just because you think the context of that collection resembles a work of fiction doesn't mean the individual parts of that collection were written as such. Now, you can argue the metaphysical things the writers believed in were bullshit but that doesn't mean the people they are writing about never existed.



You are in the minority in your opinion here. The consensus among the scholars, both religious and atheists, is that Jesus existed. Even Richard Dawkins has accepted that a long time ago. You are fighting the losing battle there.



Really, apply your standards on what counts as evidence of ancient persons to everything and you can quite as well throw lots of other historical figures in that same trash bin of "nonexistent ancient people."

 

[FZZ]

Me