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[Mineshaft_Gap]

You know, when you're able to predict story elements before they happen because of the way levels are set up. I don't want to pile on to Naughty Dog and The Last of Us in particular (it's by far their best game) but the Uncharted series and TLoU are the first games where I felt where these transgressions were agregious enough to notice. It got to a point where I was predicting every encounter and type of encounter in game. This section in particular stands out.

TLoU spoilers.

The dam.

Spoiler

You KNOW there's going to be an invasion of non infected enemy types because they conspicuously litter the area with defensive cover.

Generally speaking I don't play a ton of games where I care enough about the story for this to matter to me, but these games are nothing without their narratives and I can't help but get on them a bit for showing their hand with predictable setups and predictable arenas. There's something very distinctive about the layout and atmosphere of a location that's about to be crawling with either soldiers or infected. And even if it were too subtle for you to pick up on through the haze of other positive aspects of the game, surely the tick tock pacing of the encounters is such to where you pretty much always feel like you know what's about to come next?

I felt a lot of things when playing TLoU but surprise was almost never one of them.

Am I weird for noticing this? Am I being too picky?

Uncharted is just a joke. If you just found a clue that will lead you to the next part of your journey you can GUARANTEE that you were followed and the whole place you were just at is gonna become a bad guy filled shooting gallery.

 

[arturo2666]

Mass Effect series has the same issue you pointed out in tLoU

 

[Neoleo2143]

I mean waist high cover, in general, is an issue with 3rd person shooters that rely on cover.

 

[Affeinvasion]

Mass Effect series has the same issue you pointed out in tLoU

Honestly it's worse in Mass effect to boot.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Are there any cool examples of this?

 

[ponpo]

Generally speaking I don't play a ton of games where I care enough about the story for this to matter to me, but these games are nothing without their narratives and I can't help but get on them a bit for showing their hand with predictable setups and predictable arenas. There's something very distinctive about the layout and atmosphere of a location that's about to be crawling with either soldiers or infected. And even if it were too subtle for you to pick up on through the haze of other positive aspects of the game, surely the tick tock pacing of the encounters is such to where you pretty much always feel like you know what's about to come next?

I didn't play The Last of Us, but I'm confused as to how this effectives the narrative that much. You know the game is going to have combat instances, so is the overall narrative really impacted if you can figure out that area x is going to contain one of those?

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

I mean waist high cover, in general, is an issue with 3rd person shooters that rely on cover.

There has to be a more elegant way of not showing your hand ahead of time. Especially for important plot points. I don't know, maybe there isn't. But making it worse is the predictable pacing and atmosphere. You just know when it's time for zombies (or infected, as this game calls them.) It's hard to find fault with the atmosphere of TLoU, for what it is it's excellently crafted. I don't know that these are necessarily "Naughty Dog" problems or whether they're problems with narrative focused video games in general.

I think it's an interesting aspect of where games should evolve to be more engaging from a story and character perspective. Predictability might wrap you up like a warm and comfortable blanket but some of the best and most evocative art in other mediums reaches peak effectiveness when you can't see farther than your reach.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

I know exactly what you're referring to but...ehhh, I'm ok with it. The level design needs to exist to support both the narrative and gameplay elements equally, especially in a title like TLOU.

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

I didn't play The Last of Us, but I'm confused as to how this effectives the narrative that much. You know the game is going to have combat instances, so is the overall narrative really impacted if you can figure out that area x is going to contain one of those?

Did you read my spoiler? Yes, obviously there are going to be instances of combat with a variety of enemy times. How and when these instances take place often has a significant impact on story in games like these where the narrative is in the front seat.

 

[ponpo]

Did you read my spoiler? Yes, obviously there are going to be instances of combat with a variety of enemy times. How and when these instances take place often has a significant impact on story in games like these where the narrative is in the front seat.

I was under the impression combat in that game wasn't a rare enough occurrence for the narrative to be that affected by you being able to tell you were going to fight things soon.

 

[How About No]

More through mechanics than level design, but Nier Automata late game spoilers

Spoiler

Why are there high-level dead player bodies everywhere in Pascal's Village...?

And generally speaking whenever you finish an area and leave but there were places you never entered making it clear you come back at some point

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

I was under the impression combat in that game wasn't a rare enough occurrence for the narrative to be that affected by you being able to tell you were going to fight things soon.

Being able to see that the all important safe place you just made it to is all going to go to pot the instant you set eyes on it does not subvert your expectations. It plays in to exactly the kind of expectations people have of this type of fiction. In a case like this, having the safe space actually be a safe space is more interesting to me on a storytelling level because it runs counter to what I predict would happen in this type of post apocalyptic survival setting.

I binged the first two seasons of Fargo and one of my favorite things about that series is how it plays with your expectations and subverts them.

Spoiler

Season 2. Ted Danson not dying from his injuries in the final episode. The overwhelming strength of character showed by the lawyer guy in spite of him coming off like an ass at first. Just to name a couple. There are lots.

If Fargo fit perfectly into the cop drama mold you'd have familiar beats like the tragic loss that strengthens the protagonist's resolve. Fargo isn't a cop drama though, it's people drama. It tells a story that based on characters, not your conditioned expectations of what a cop drama is. You understand the events insofar as they can be understood because you understand the motivations of the characters. And what motivates the characters is a deeper layer of subtext that goes beyond clichéd things like revenge or a desire to prove themself.

But hey what do I know. I'm just a working class dog.

 

[jett]

TLOU was pretty egregious about it, and that's far from being the only section either. It's so obvious even casual gamers can immediately tell, like the people playing on the React YouTube channel. It was kinda funny.

I hope ND is more subtle about their waist-high cover in TLOU2. Or better, finally does away with this crap.

 

[lumzi23]

The whole "waist high cover" complaint has never been one of mine.

 

[lvl99 Pixel]

TLOU made sense since it was exactly that, a barricaded fort
are there games with a cover system that dont have waist high blockades?

 

[Goldboy]

This bugs me in TLOU too. It's not game-breaking, but it does take me out of it a bit.

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

It's an issue in every game. "Oh I bet there's gonna be a fight here because of all the cover." "Oh I bet this is gonna be a boss fight cause it's a big room."

 

[Luminaire]

It's an issue in every game. "Oh I bet there's gonna be a fight here because of all the cover." "Oh I bet this is gonna be a boss fight cause it's a big room."

This, as well as an abundance of ammo or a save point just before a large area.

 

[Dremorak]

Mass effect, Uncharted series and TLOU were all terrible with this stuff. I think uncharted annoyed me the most because nothing about the combat in those games was fun.

 

[MaximumSpider]

More through mechanics than level design, but Nier Automata late game spoilers

Spoiler

Why are there high-level dead player bodies everywhere in Pascal's Village...?

And generally speaking whenever you finish an area and leave but there were places you never entered making it clear you come back at some point

Ah, yeah this. I remember thinking the exact thing once I hit that part.

 

[Sheroking]

This, as well as an abundance of ammo or a save point just before a large area.

This one is a Resident Evil standby.

A shelf with a ton of bullets? Welp, the next room is a boss fight.

 

[Luminaire]

This one is a Resident Evil standby.

A shelf with a ton of bullets? Welp, the next room is a boss fight.

Absolutely.

In other games, the autosave going off gives things away as well if it's a fairly infrequent autosave.

 

[Stencil]

Happens in Dark Souls a lot. It happens in most games, I think. As you play through any game you start to get used to what is part of a level, judging by obstacles, enemy placement, etc. and what is obviously a room dedicated to a story exposé or boss battle.
When you encounter a big empty arena-looking room after fighting through cramped corridors, it's kind of a given something is supposed to happen there.

 

[Acinixys]

It's an issue in every game. "Oh I bet there's gonna be a fight here because of all the cover." "Oh I bet this is gonna be a boss fight cause it's a big room."

Lots of ammo and armour?

Boss fight ahead.

Im looking at you, Doom

 

[PixelatedBookake]

I honestly didn't mind it. It didn't ruin specific emotional beats of the story and I enjoy the combat of TLoU enough for it to not bother me. I understand if someone who didn't enjoy the combat that much might not enjoy it though.

 

[Dr.Acula]

When they removed the holstering animation in Mass Effect 3 due to "memory issues" it meant that any time I was put into a new area I would know if there would be combat or not. Previously in ME games battles breaking out during ostensibly safe periods could be random and thrilling.

 

[sangreal]

I knew this thread would be about tlou and mass effect. Really, it's an issue with all environment-based shooters but it stands out more in games that aren't meant to be pure action. I don't like it, but it isn't a big deal and I can't think of a better solution

I think the actual problem you have is that "fight waves of enemies" is the gameplay around every story beat

 

[SuperStiltzkin]

I honestly didn't mind it. It didn't ruin specific emotional beats of the story and I enjoy the combat of TLoU enough for it to not bother me. I understand if someone who didn't enjoy the combat that much might not enjoy it though.

I wouldn't say it ruins any specific story beats, but it's definitely used as a copout story device twice during that Fall section. Joel and his brother argue at the dam with a tense confrontation and it seems like they're gonna throw down. But then "we've got company!" and they fight bandits and Joel and his brother are buddy buddy again. Then right after that, Ellie and Joel get into a heated argument and things get personal. But then "we've got company!" They fight bandits and Joel and Ellie make up. It felt really lazy in an otherwise really well written and told narrative.

 

[ivanthebearable]

I remember when I was playing Dead Space I rather enjoyed it until I started noticing that enemies would pop out of vents most every time you passed one in a hallway.

I tested it and waited near one, then passed by and BAM, enemy encounter. Took me out of the game so hard I lost interest because I started noticing lots of other tells that made it not-scary for me.

Edit: er I misunderstood the point of this thread.

On topic: JRPG's all do this.

Empty giant room ahead?(Mini) Boss battle. I guarantee it.

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

I knew this thread would be about tlou and mass effect. Really, it's an issue with all environment-based shooters but it stands out more in games that aren't meant to be pure action. I don't like it, but it isn't a big deal and I can't think of a better solution

I think the actual problem you have is that "fight waves of enemies" is the end of every story beat

I think the solution is better writing. What if the bandits overrun the area and instead of fighting them at the location you've been striving towards, you get chased off the land into an unfamiliar area?

Like the forest... Where you can take cover behind natural objects like trees and rocks.

Spoiler

Say Tommy and his people lose the dam and when you part ways it's anyone's guess as to whether or not they'll ever take it back.

It reenforces the idea that these side characters have their own stories even when you aren't there to witness them. They've got their own perils and you part ways worrying about what will happen to them on their journey. Instead of you know, just leaving a place in more or less the same state as when you found it.

 

[NightShift]

Waist high cover takes me out of it too and it's such a simple fix. Just don't make your game so cover focused. It would make the game more fun too!

To me, the very first combat encounter in TLoU was the worst.

Spoiler

You go into a cutscene where they give you an over head shot of the deal that's taking place. The cover set up for Joel and the enemies couldn't be more obvious.

 

[TheCongressman1]

Happens in Dark Souls a lot. It happens in most games, I think. As you play through any game you start to get used to what is part of a level, judging by obstacles, enemy placement, etc. and what is obviously a room dedicated to a story exposé or boss battle.
When you encounter a big empty arena-looking room after fighting through cramped corridors, it's kind of a given something is supposed to happen there.

While it does happen, DS does make moves early on to mess with your expectations. There are several fog walls that lead to nothing. As well as bosses like the Taurus demon

Spoiler

which isn't triggered until the player has a chance to assume the fog wall must have been a trick.

 

[MegaSackman]

I don't know what people are talking about here but that's a pretty iconic moment in TLOU and I 100% sure that everyone saw it coming and it was intended by the devs. ok, 99%.

Nothing wrong with it, it's pretty much intentional. The surprise is how everything is going to be played out, not that something is going to happen. I'm really glad they did it, fantastic design.

The Chateu in Uncharted 3, pretty impressive set piece and you can see that they're building something pretty early on.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

It's mainly a problem with cover-based shooters. It's just another reason cover-based shooters suck.

I do think there's a discussion to be had about whether linear shooters are a particularly good fit for most story-driven games, or whether various design conventions end up undercutting the story.

 

[Tetsujin_MK]

This one is a Resident Evil standby.

A shelf with a ton of bullets? Welp, the next room is a boss fight.

And for the PS1 games:
Real-time rendered door on pre-rendered background? Something's gonna bust through that.

 

[ActWan]

Yeah that Dam bit was the worst in that regard, all in all I dislike it when games do this .

 

[Cfer]

I don't know if this is in the same vein but I always found going back to the starting point of open world games is weird. In GTA:SA CJ's cul de sac is so jarring because it is literally the only thing that resembles a tiny little Street or cul de sac in the entire game.

Revisiting starting points in WoW was always a trippy experience too, like to meet a friend who just started a new toon.

 

[sinkfla87]

Makes me think of Horizon. Whenever I see those tall patches of grass I know something that wants to fuck me up is near haha.

Spoiler

it's an open world game and these are all over the place though, just like the machines.

 

[Shevat]

Not really due to level design, just game design in general, but I had problems fully getting into Resident Evil 7 because I'd notice the game auto-save all the time and know something was coming up. Totally breaks the tension in a lot of situations.

 

[Colocho]

I was just playing Horizon, and I was told to go somewhere and I saw tons of healing flowers just before I got there, "Welp, looks like a big fight is gonna happen".

 

[herod]

This is to be expected when you try to marry something entirely predictable (a specific genre of gameplay) with something unpredictable, i.e. wanting a story to surprise you. Most of the time, one has to compromise the other.

This is why I personally don't care about videogame stories. Uncompromised gameplay is far more important.

 

[disappeared]

This is another reason Silent Hill 2's narrative played out so well.

The player is practically never made aware of anything that is coming in the form of story beats and the areas wherein those beats take place. Sure, there are instances where you might be expecting some plot development (meeting a certain someone on the docks of the waterfront as James sort of mentions beforehand) but the level design - or rather the town itself - never tips its hand as to when or where you're going to get a hint of something. Obviously toward the end of the game the destination is made quite clear so it's acceptable to expect exposition and character dialogue, but it is almost never telegraphed. The player is meant to be kept in the dark as much as James is until you walk into room 312.

 

[Freeman76]

NVM

 

[Jangowuzhere]

The first time you fight enemies in TLOU really stands out to me. The entire experience up to that point felt very organic and natural, and then you stumble into this obvious video game area.

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

The first time you fight enemies in TLOU really stands out to me. The entire experience up to that point felt very organic and natural, and then you stumble into this obvious video game area.

Gross.

Really, not to undercut the game where it succeeds but it really could be so much better. I can think of several things that could help mitigate stuff like this. I played the game on hard with super human hearing turned off and I still found enough ammo to comfortably get through most situations. I feel like maybe a greater emphasis on melee or better stealth and enemy AI might make sections like this less necessary.

For a game so many people find transcendent The Last of Us really is mired in some very gamey design.

 

[The3DGameArtist]

In my opinion, I feel like Metal Gear Solid V Phantom Pain did a great job with theirs. They have covers, they have a cover-system but they give the player enough of an option to just use the whole environment to your advantage. A lot of it comes by being able to crouch & prone, even the slightest hill in the terrain becomes your friend then.

A lot of games that use hard-covers or even soft-covers almost always end up creating a skill for the player to create "cover". Looking at The Division and Mass Effect they both do this.

If they instead make sure the player have the toolbox and freedom to fully utilize the environment and player movement this wouldn't be such a big issue that they have to create a skill for it.

 

[Fezan]

Yeah, it was really obvious in TLOU QB and most TPS. Gears 4 developers didn't even tried to hide it or layout the cover in different way to hide it.

UC4, on the other hand, is much better in this regards.

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

This is to be expected when you try to marry something entirely predictable (a specific genre of gameplay) with something unpredictable, i.e. wanting a story to surprise you. Most of the time, one has to compromise the other.

This is why I personally don't care about videogame stories. Uncompromised gameplay is far more important.

Generally I'm right there with you, but I chose to accept The Last of Us as narrative driven game first and foremost, which is what I think the developers were going for. And that's not to say they didn't craft a game with solid gameplay. But I think there's some dissonance that's particularly accute in this game as it's focus is obviously split in two directions to the detriment of the final product. Gameplay and story.

The thing is, TLoU is ambitious but that alone isn't worthy of unfettered praise. Just because the game tries to do something doesn't mean we should ignore where it stumbles. And it stumbles pretty hard in some key areas.

 

[Mineshaft_Gap]

This is another reason Silent Hill 2's narrative played out so well.

The player is practically never made aware of anything that is coming in the form of story beats and the areas wherein those beats take place. Sure, there are instances where you might be expecting some plot development (meeting a certain someone on the docks of the waterfront as James sort of mentions beforehand) but the level design - or rather the town itself - never tips its hand as to when or where you're going to get a hint of something. Obviously toward the end of the game the destination is made quite clear so it's acceptable to expect exposition and character dialogue, but it is almost never telegraphed. The player is meant to be kept in the dark as much as James is until you walk into room 312.

Silent Hill 2 is a master class. Metal Gear Solid 5 is too for some things. That one guy was right. You can mitigate the TPS chest high cover trope by increasing number of movements your player character can make.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

The first time you fight enemies in TLOU really stands out to me. The entire experience up to that point felt very organic and natural, and then you stumble into this obvious video game area.

I'm not a fan nor am I a subscriber to the "cover shooter eeewwwww" newsletter, but this area is shitty level design.