It also took TV like 6 decades before the Wire was created. Games are still pretty young and the advances in stories, characters, presentation they have made in such a short time are tremendous. There are tons of incredible stories in gaming whether its something as simple and magical as Journey to the huge and epic Like Planescape Torment.
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Video Games Are Better Without Stories
- Thread starter RedlineRonin
- Start date
It also took TV like 6 decades before the Wire was created. Games are still pretty young and the advances in stories, characters, presentation they have made in such a short time are tremendous. There are tons of incredible stories in gaming whether its something as simple and magical as Journey to the huge and epic Like Planescape Torment.
Messofanego
Banned
Here's a couple of related games.
1979 Revolution is about the Iraq-Iran conflict, it's Telltale style and really well told.
This War Of Mine is about civilians surviving in wartime conflict, inspired by Bosnia.
I'm looking forward to RIOT Civil Unrest where you can play as police or protesters, and it's inspired by real events.
Lord of Ostia
Member
Read the article, he says they are bad. A large portion of his argument for why games shouldn't try to tell narratives is that 'novels and films tell narratives better', which is 1. Subjective and 2. Reductive.
The image is from Edith Finch. Although the sun-bleached aesthetic might have fooled ya
Which I found way more interactive and immersive than Dear Esther or Everybody's Gone To The Rapture.
Ah, thanks for correcting me. I'm gonna be getting EF for sure, I love "walking simulators" when they do more than simply ask the player to press W and have a story shown/told to then. Glad to hear that the game isn't like that.
freethoughtbubble
Member
It's taken for granted that games are worse than movies and literature at telling a good story. I'm starting to really question the underlying basis of that assumption.
Are we even experiencing a "story" when we are enthralled by a game's "narrative?" I think the experiences of reading a good novel and watching a good film are closer to each other than either is to playing a good game.
I think we have to rethink the way we discuss "story" in games because the elements of story serve different functions in games than they do in linear mediums. Story bits add context to your gameplay experience, and its this combination of context and experience that makes games powerful, and explains why even a simple plot ("defeat the villain") seems to punch above its weight in a game when compared to a book with the same basic plot.
In short, I don't think even the most linear, cinematic, story-driven game is actually about telling a story. It's about adding a compelling, emotionally satisfying context to the player's actions. Samus being saved by the baby metroid she spared would be a trite plot point in any other medium--but actually experiencing that moment in-game is a defining touchstone of this medium. Why is that? Is it because the game is telling a good story, or is something else happening here?
Are we even experiencing a "story" when we are enthralled by a game's "narrative?" I think the experiences of reading a good novel and watching a good film are closer to each other than either is to playing a good game.
I think we have to rethink the way we discuss "story" in games because the elements of story serve different functions in games than they do in linear mediums. Story bits add context to your gameplay experience, and its this combination of context and experience that makes games powerful, and explains why even a simple plot ("defeat the villain") seems to punch above its weight in a game when compared to a book with the same basic plot.
In short, I don't think even the most linear, cinematic, story-driven game is actually about telling a story. It's about adding a compelling, emotionally satisfying context to the player's actions. Samus being saved by the baby metroid she spared would be a trite plot point in any other medium--but actually experiencing that moment in-game is a defining touchstone of this medium. Why is that? Is it because the game is telling a good story, or is something else happening here?
Lord of Ostia
Member
He did, he doesn't even discuss 2D games at all, nor does he discuss role playing games that predate video games, like D&D, despite talking about board games. Textbook case of ignoring things that clearly invalidate your argument in service of making a bad argument, rather than evaluating the merits of the argument you are making in the first place.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
These are terrible defenses for video games. For one, The Wire wasn't the first fantastically written TV show. Narrative in games has also been around for what, 35 years now? Video game writers also have the benefit of decades in great writing in other media that narratively functions a lot like video games. It's just that most of the people who write video games just aren't very good writers.
Messofanego
Banned
Yeah, it's not a walking audiobook heh.
Shake Appeal
Member
Yes. I have also read a couple of Bogost's books. I agree with him in just about every word. I can count videogames stories that are comparable in quality to good not great novels or films on both hands.
I'd argue the same of most entertainment medium out there. Most TV shows I watch never ever come close to the Wire to this day. Much the same most games never come close to something like Planescape a Torment.
Double Donut
Member
Same. Love story in my video games.
No matter how much people claim "video game stories will never touch novels/TV/movies", I still love them just as much if not more than those mediums' stories.
keltickennedy
Member
More_Badass
Member
Neither does television, outside of the big four or five like Breaking Bad, The Wire, The Americans, Fargo, etc.
But SOMA and Stasis versus the vast majority of sci-fi movies? Bloodborne compared to movies that are considered "Lovecraftian"? The Walking Dead versus The Walking Dead? Planescape? The Swapper? And so on
I'd argue you're vastly overestimating the gulf between the utter masterpieces in those mediums and the everything else in those mediums. And of course, consider that TV, film, and books have had many many decades to be refined, many eras of change and evolutions, influences within and without, to reach the likes of Breaking Bad and The Wire, of 2001, of various literary classics
Although I'd argue my dynasty's epic multi-generational struggle in Crusader Kings 2 is as engaging and thrilling as the best movies or shows
Zen_Arcade
Banned
That might be true, but would you really say that any video game story would live up to the cream of the crop in other mediums?
Like, are your favorite video game stories even close to being as well written as your favorite movies/tv shows/books? Because I would find that hard to believe.
Melchiah
Member
Games like Soul Reaver, Silent Hill 2, The Last of Us, and Horizon: Zero Dawn wouldn't be better without a story to build their characters.
Why should we look purely on play time, and overlook sales figures which paint a different picture? Story-driven games are constantly appearing in the NPD charts.
Shake Appeal
Member
Bogost would agree with you. It's the exact kind of storytelling he likes in games stories that arise organically and uniquely through the player's participation in the game's structure and rules.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
TV has a shitload of amazing shows. You're just counting things from the past couple years.
Soma is actually a really good example. I think Soma is one of the best written games I've ever played, and it still doesn't hold a candle to any sci-fi greats.
Video games have also had decades to refine themselves. There have been video games with stories since the 80s. In fact, literally everything you said about TV growing can be applied to games.
More_Badass
Member
They certainly got me as emotionally invested, if not more. Writing is only one factor in what makes a game's story good/effectively told.
Personally I love a lot of videogame stories more than movie/tv/book/etc. stories. I played through the Last of Us like 6 times because of how much I loved the story which I would rank over most other stories in other mediums.
Edit: Its also not just the story that pushes it over but the presentation, the acting, etc. It all comes together for something very special to me.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Which is exactly my point. Games stories are best when consciously designed with game play in mind, because the strength in the medium comes with interactivity. Unfortunately, many games don't take this approach very well and focus on them separately, instead of making them interact with each other as often as they can.
Maintenance
Member
Disagree completely.
And also wrong.
And also wrong.
stuminus3
Member
Well somebody's nerves are a little raw!
He is on point.
More_Badass
Member
What do you count as the "sci-fi greats"? And if you're talking Clarke, Asimov, Bradbury, PKD, etc., like you got realize how crazy it is to try and compare Soma to that, and it has nothing to do with Soma being a video game.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
I was thinking more of things like Alien, but even so, it shouldn't be crazy to compare something like a video game story to Bradbury.
The game medium is much wider then music and movies. A game can not only have a different narrative genre or artstyle, one game can play complety different then another and focus on different things. This also mean that some people might care more about one aspect of a game then other people.
Every game doesn't need a story, I saw someone mention tetris and I agree that adding a story to it probably doesn't make it better. But every game doesn't need to have complex gamemechanics or endless replay value, some games work perfectly well being a short experience you play one time, you may not like it, but others do.
Also what is gameplay? I often see things like "games should focus on gameplay and not story" but gameplay in one game can mean something completly different than gameplay in another game. Some people seem to think that gameplay only means combat or different movement systems. Choices in games like Until dawn and puzzels in pnc adventure games is also different examples of gameplay. Not liking the gameplay is not the same as there being no gameplay.
Games shouldn't need to be defined as one thing because different people like different things and different games are made for different people. It's okay to not like something, but there is enough room for games you like and games other people like.
Every game doesn't need a story, I saw someone mention tetris and I agree that adding a story to it probably doesn't make it better. But every game doesn't need to have complex gamemechanics or endless replay value, some games work perfectly well being a short experience you play one time, you may not like it, but others do.
Also what is gameplay? I often see things like "games should focus on gameplay and not story" but gameplay in one game can mean something completly different than gameplay in another game. Some people seem to think that gameplay only means combat or different movement systems. Choices in games like Until dawn and puzzels in pnc adventure games is also different examples of gameplay. Not liking the gameplay is not the same as there being no gameplay.
Games shouldn't need to be defined as one thing because different people like different things and different games are made for different people. It's okay to not like something, but there is enough room for games you like and games other people like.
Remember that little game Nier 1? Its very well-regarded among fans and is probably one of the most popular "cult following" games, easily one of the best sleeper hits of gen 7.
It's absolute garbage outside of its story. Take away that story and you're left with a low-tier ARPG with no hook
It's absolute garbage outside of its story. Take away that story and you're left with a low-tier ARPG with no hook
MegaSackman
Member
When was the last time TV or Movies produced a "GREAT" that's better than SOMA? (haven't played SOMA
)Lord of Ostia
Member
That's a really stupid argument, no offense. That's basically like saying "No one else should write dystopia fiction because 1984 is better". Just because the best stories in video games aren't 'better' than the best stories in films and literature doesn't mean games shouldn't attempt to tell narratives, even in more traditional ways.
Edit: Let me put it this way. No accomplished writer is going to tell a young, inexperienced writer not to try writing because it won't be as good as their own work. Saying that video games shouldn't tell narrative because older mediums with a lot more experienced creators, in a medium with a better foundation for narrative construction, do a better job at it on average is needlessly limiting what the medium can do.
I'd even argue that some of the scifi greats weren't always the best writers or story tellers despite the incredibly creativity, heady ideas and their very interesting views on the past, present and future.
More_Badass
Member
As a sci-fi story: ArrivalWhen was the last time TV or Movies produced a "GREAT" that's better than SOMA? (haven't played SOMA
As sci-fi horror: Black Mirror
IMO
Melchiah
Member
Yes. Silent Hill 2 is one of the best horror stories I've experienced in any medium. Soul Reaver has some of the most memorable settings and characters in any medium. The Last of Us made me care about its characters more than most movies/series. Horizon: Zero Dawn managed to impress me more than most modern sci-fi stories on the silver screen. The level of ingenuity of What Remains of Edith Finch is rare in any medium.
DAREALGUMMY
Member
Sadly, people don't think this way. A lot of people are easily hooked on to subpar stories because sad things and claim they're the best thing ever.
archreaper93
Member
I don't really care all that much about stories in games, but this is just wrong. I don't think a bad story can hurt a game that plays well, but a good story can definitely make it better.
MegaSackman
Member
Arrival is pretty good but I wouldn't say gaming is far from it from a writting perspective, haven't played SOMA but there are some things off in Arrival to me, specially the "trigger" at the end
(I don't know why I'm telling you this but here's my phone number)
But yeah, Arrival is a good example of great sci fi, again, The Swapper or Talos (games I know) have fantastic sci fi too, I wouldn't count them as drastically inferior.
Tyraniboah
Member
We're done here, really. There are stories that can only be told by games. They aren't a requirement for gaming, but when executed well they are just fine. People need to stop expecting the same kind of story that you'd get in a book or movie while ignoring the unique elements to a story that only interactive media could provide.
That's a terrible counter argument.
The Wire wasn't the first fantastically written TV show, however the reason it stood out and stands out still is that there were very, very few that were. Mostly because the medium didn't benefit from strong narrative arcs and needed quick resolutions to simplified conflicts that didn't challenge the audience at the time because that's what they thought people wanted. It's taken time, different distribution types and people willing to take risks with money to get it to that.
Not all video game writers have background in other mediums and having that background isn't going to help much due to the differences between mediums. The audience engagement factor is certainly different between a TV show and the interaction a game provides. TV doesn't require input to move the narrative along, while video games do, and how that input is done and how they make that a part of the story is also very different than telling a story in a book, movie or tv show. Much like how a movie adaptation of a book can lose something in the translation the differences between those and video games is even larger and a more difficult struggle.
Not to mention that with Television there isn't a complete generational technology change. We're still dealing with the uncanny valley of humans in games and visual story telling requires unspoken moments of expression that don't feel like awkward digital puppetry. TV, book and movie writers aren't beholden to make narrative sense out of different game mechanics and don't need to awkwardly throw in a tutorial for new viewers.
I mean I'm with you that video game writing in general sucks. I say that as someone who loves storytelling in all forms. But it doesn't all suck and I can think of several games that have managed to do it well in their specific medium that would be nearly impossible to do otherwise. Brothers for example. As someone who reads a lot of Sci Fi I consider Horizon Zero Dawn to blow out most other recent Sci-Fi stories I've read or watched recently, and those I think are better just means I put it on par with those. Chrono Trigger, FFVI, and so on. While it's rare to get a game that's written well it's also because like TV the major investors want something that doesn't challenge their audiences, that is easily digestible and generic enough to appeal to multiple demographics on top of the technical limitations of the medium.
Video Games don't need a version of The Wire, they need The Sopranos, something that was so successful due to it's storytelling and high production values made the market try and chase its success.
That doesn't mean that we should give up on storytelling in video games because a lot of the writing is bad instead of having higher expectation for the writing of video games as a whole.
No. While technically the quality of the actual story is better in many novels, the mere fact its interactive and pits the player as the actual protagonist can serve to make a story greater than the sum of it's parts.
I've read many books that have far better stories than any video game from a literary perspective, but I still enjoy video games for the interactivity aspect of the storytelling, even if being a gameplay first kind of guy.
I've read many books that have far better stories than any video game from a literary perspective, but I still enjoy video games for the interactivity aspect of the storytelling, even if being a gameplay first kind of guy.
Messofanego
Banned
To add to the Swapper, I loved Lifeless Planet for sci-fi storytelling in videogames.
Deus Ex, Metro 2033/Last Light, STALKER too.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
1) I didn't say all video game stories are bad. I said that it's highest highs aren't even close to the higest highs of other mediums, while still having comparable lows.
2) Even when video games are doing things that are easily comparable to other mediums they usually don't do very well. Simple things like dialogue and charaterization don't change THAT much from medium to medium. We are still in an era of video games where I don't trust a lot of developers to do things like portray a minority because far more times than not they end up as stereotypes. These arent things that happen because video games are hard to write for, they happen because the person writing can't write a convincing character.
3) I also didn't say that we should give up on telling stories in games. I just think we need better writers who know how to play to the strengths of the medium instead of approaching them the way they do.
Lord of Ostia
Member
Just building off of this, there was a great article recently on the story of Final Fantasy Tactics and it's relevance today: https://medium.com/@NEwertKrocker/final-fantasy-tactics-entitlement-and-recognizing-privilege-a3460462e14f While using an aristocratic, fantasy society to talk about privilege certainly isn't an original idea, and wasn't in the 90's when FFT released, it's still a well told story with depth and a message that is relevant to the human experience.
I feel like all these points could be leveled at other story telling mediums except books perhaps where writers have much more flexibility in things by the very nature of the medium.