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Video Games Are Better Without Stories

Gone Home is also a game that has no replayablity
And? What does that have to do with anything in that post?

Already went wrong when I read:

"Film, television, and literature all tell them better. So why are games still obsessed with narrative?"
"Better" already starts the argument with a pretty abrasive tone. What defines better? While "obsessed" already colors the endeavor as misguided and mistaken

If I was going to cover this topic, it would be from the angle of how film/books/music/etc explore and present narrative in medium-distinct ways, how games both succeed and fail in their own unique ways, and the overlap across mediums and what lessons that games can learn from the growing pains of older mediums

Games are unique in that it is the medium that encompasses all other mediums. The elements of film, theater, music, literature, art are all present in games
 
It's funny, my initial instinct is to shout "NOPE", but when I think my favourite games/games I would consider to be the best in the biz', they're all games with either little or no story.
.

The thing is what you're are saying is strictly personal, unless you think that your idea of a good game is all that should matter to the world.
 

Riposte

Member

I would say AA5 is an example of having less "game" (to use his term) and it's one of the worst in the series. The Investigations/Kenji series stumbled a little with the first one, but the second one is probably the best in the series in part because it takes the mechanics the furthest.

EDIT: Also compare the complexity and depth of two very similar concepts: AA5's mood matrix vs. AA6's seances.
 
Gone Home is also a game that has no replayablity. After you are done in 1 hour or so..well what is there to do? I think that is also why it has a bad gameplay. One and done games will not be superior to games like Gone Home. There is a reason why the greatest games people are either gameplay centric or have stories that don't overtake the games.
It has the same "replayability" that any good novel or film has, which is to experience the narrative again.
 

Tomeru

Member
Everything is better with a story. If its a goid story, then even more. This article is factually wrong.
 
Uh, excuse me? Facade was the "one serious effort" to let the player exert agency on the plot?

Really?
Video games is the only medium whose storytelling can be undermined. Playing a drinking game or browsing the net on your phone while watching a movie only enhances the storytelling.
 
Whenever I'm reminded of Facade, I turn back to that old "Kha" let's play for some laughs.
It was funny seeing him bring up Facade, because that was the game that introduced me to indie games and that games can tell stories in ways I had never considered

Of course I was 13 at the time and I did exactly what he said, just typed in words to get funny reactions. It wasn't till I was older that I really appreciated Facade
 
Frankly, I couldn't care less about story, but it's not like I deduct points if the game has one*

*Unless the game takes control away from me in order to shove the story down my throat,
or makes something shitty on purpose to make a "point." (e.g. unskippable cutscenes, forced walking, Raiden in MGS2, etc.)
 

eXistor

Member
Both are perfectly fine, but it's more often than not that videogames just don't know how to tell a story and still take advantage of the unique nature of videogames.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
This seems like such narrow minded thinking when we have incredible examples of both story heavy games and those based entirely around their story and those that lack any real story or the story is one you make up yourself as you play. I love both styles of games and would not sacrifice one for the other. Diversity is the spice of life.
 
I think the article, while obviously only talking about video games in particular and not games broadly, is remiss by not even attempting to address role playing games (not video games) like D&D. Those games are all about crafting a narrative through an interactive experience, and that style of game provides the foundation for many of the most popular video games. That's not even considering the role playing that goes on inside of video games, in which players take the world of the game and use it to make their own stories.
 

Kart94

Banned
It has the same "replayability" that any good novel or film has, which is to experience the narrative again.

Are you comparing Gone Home, which's quality is only to a film or novel? Please. Gone Home's story is so so shallow compared to the average novel or film. I mean sure you can experience it the 2nd or try to, but without gameplay, well what is there for me to come back the the 2nd time?

That is why i don't like stories being put first. As soon as the story and game is done, well i don't feel like replaying it again. Story first gameplays are shallow and have a limited appeal. See also That Dragon Cancer, which you can get just as much out of watching a Markiplier vid and once it's done...nothing really to hook you back in.
 

Drackhorn

Member
7Z0bLZ6.png

He is on point.

Done.
 

Bakkus

Member
The lack of a strong story in Breath of the Wild made it far less motivating for me to explore around the world, so my anecdote is that this is wrong.
 

Marcel

Member

pablito

Member
I'm glad I'm not one of the people where it's one or the other. Throw me Devil May Cry, Persona 5, Until Dawn, Bloodborne, Witcher 3, and I'll enjoy all of it.

It's okay if you want to play gameplay only type games. But stop speaking as if games with other priorities shouldn't exist.
 
I feel it's worth mentioning that game directors of more mechanically interactive games, including Kamiya, Mikami, and Miyamoto, have gone on record suggesting that game mechanics have been influenced by the story that they wanted to tell.

It's hard to take the claim that "Gameplay should come first" seriously when even action game directors, ones who would even revolutionize the genre, don't even take it in mind when creating games.
 

Krev

Unconfirmed Member
Elizabeth Sampat's take was interesting in how this article can be used as ammo to deligitimise smaller narrative games, many of which aren't made by white males.
So what's the logical conclusion of this? No one should make a controversial argument since the people who disagree might get hurt?
Sounds like pretty shallow thinking. A critical piece leading to a back and forth discussion over the essence of gaming helps clarify or shift stances. It's a sign the medium is in a good place.
 
Are you comparing Gone Home, which's quality is only to a film or novel? Please. Gone Home is so so shallow compared to the average novel or film. I mean sure you can experience it the 2nd or try to, but without gameplay, well what is there for it the 2nd time?

That is why i don't like stories being put first. As soon as the story and game is done, well i don't feel like replaying it again.
No, I'm not comparing them, only explaining what the replayability of Gone Home is, which is the same that most games have, which is simply to experience the game a second time if you enjoyed it.

But since you mention comparisons of Gone Home to other mediums, the author of the article does so. He says that Gone Home is equivalent to 'young adult fiction', as a means of discrediting it, making it seem inferior. Yet that's just a judgement the author of this article is making yet again. Young adult literature is simply literature written for young people. The audience a work is written for does not determine the quality of a work. The fact that he is willing to make dismissive judgements about literature makes it no surprise that he is equally dismissive about games.
 
It has the same "replayability" that any good novel or film has, which is to experience the narrative again.
It all goes back to what I said about context.

What makes gameplay good is what works for the game in question. It's a game-by-game basis; saying that the gameplay in Gone Home is bad because there's no "replayability" and "nothing else to do" is appying an arbitrary bar all games must meet regardless of anything else

I'd actually argue that another factor is the moniker of the medium. Calling it "video games" emphasizes the game part, while the medium has already expanded and experimented beyond that
 

Dio

Banned
I played Nier: Automata this year, so even with just that game alone I can say he's wrong, as well.

It contains narrative beats and subversions of storytelling impossible in any other medium.
 
This always feels like such an odd example to use, but whenever I see a discussion of video games and stories, I always remember Portal 2.

The story was completely linear—no multiple paths, no way to affect the outcome. And yet the way that the story was presented and played through was so compelling... my single favorite example of a story and a game married perfectly.

Unfortunately, no other game I've played has really been able to replicate that storytelling method.
 

Nev

Banned
Ayy Druckmann trigger.

Anyways, the best stories in videogames for me came from games that fully, proudly embraced the videogame as a medium and weren't wannabe movies ashamed of what they are. I.e: Souls, Bloodborne, SotC, Portal/Half-Life.

They're far beyond what any gameplay-cutscene-gameplay-cutscene game could ever achieve. It doesn't matter how much Hollywood or "cinematic" they make the cutscenes and press-forward gameplay at Naughty Dog or how many more cutscenes can Kojima cram into his new game, I'll still be more interested and impacted by the world of SotC and BB than I ever will from any of these.

Don't even make me mention the walking simulators.
 
every generation rediscovers the ludology vs narrative argument

seek the balance you desire

quit fucking with other peoples happiness
 

Van Bur3n

Member
Most video games have terribly written stories to tell, but they hardly take away from the game unless its a heavily narrative focused experience or if the gameplay is good enough.

However, games that end up with good stories make the gameplay (if its good in the first place that is) all the more engaging to take part in because I feel it helps keep you more invested.

I wouldn't say games have suffered from telling stories to the point they'd be better off without them. But if your game is focused on telling a narrative, it better be a good enough one to excuse the less delivering gameplay. And most games that do this are terrible at doing it.
 

Kent

Member
Define "great gameplay." Would you say Life Is Strange has great gameplay? Until Dawn? Journey? These are all titles I greatly enjoy. I even love Deadly Premonition, and that game has really subpar ... well, everything — aside from characters, atmosphere, and its general quirkiness.
Gameplay is the user interaction with the rules of the game within the context of the game. Which I realize is broad, but it is necessarily-so due to the breadth of different types of gameplay that games have.

I should note that Life Is Strange, Until Dawn and Journey are not games I've played - the latter two aren't ones I have access to, and the former isn't one that interested me enough to pick it up. Deadly Premonition remains one of my favorites though.

I'm not so sure I agree with that definitive statement. Lots of games that have bad gameplay and great stories (like Deadly Premonition) are beloved.
The reason for Deadly Premonition remaining one of my favorites, seemingly in spite of my statements prior, is a key word in my definition of gameplay: Context.

Context being the overall wholeness of the game itself. For the purposes of Deadly Premonition, its gameplay was very intentionally crafted to serve the context in which it appears (or, I suppose, it's possible they simply got lucky - but I've met SWERY myself, and don't believe this is the case). A lot of people will go around saying it's a "bad game" with "bad gameplay" but is "so bad it's good" or "great in spite of its gameplay," but I posit that the gameplay being exactly how it is, is integral to the experience of the game itself.

If Deadly Premonition had perfectly-replicated 1:1 Resident Evil 4 gameplay, it wouldn't be the same experience. Likewise, it wouldn't be the same if it were simply a series of text choices, akin to a visual novel.

Yes, you could absolutely state that many games that would generally be described as having great gameplay are ones whose gameplay could stand on their own in a vacuum. I would not describe Deadly Premonition as having gameplay that could stand in a vacuum, but not every game needs gameplay that specifically does, they just need gameplay that serves the game itself in a manner that's well-implemented in all appropriate ways, leading to an artistically-whole experience of playing the game.

That's not to say that "all games are exactly as they should be" or that games couldn't see improvements or somesuch nonsense (there are plenty of games that I think have straight-awful gameplay that doesn't serve the experience they're trying to convey at all), and it's certainly not to exist as a justification for bad (or more accurately, flawed) gameplay existing in a significant number of games; it's just that not every game needs Platinum/Treasure-tier S++ rank amazing action gameplay to have great gameplay that serves the game as it needs to be served.
I wouldn't consider visual novels or graphic adventures to have great gameplay, yet many of them are still great games.
The thing about visual novels and adventure games is that their gameplay directly involves what are normally ancillary elements. Though I'll admit that I don't generally play these kinds of games, I've yet to experience a game as such that makes good enough use of this to justify its gameplay (unless you're including Deadly Premonition into this). I remain convinced that it's entirely possible, but not so much that it involves clicking every item in your inventory on every part of the environment.
 
It's an interesting topic.

Of course there's no right way and wrong way. Stories in games can be great. Of course.

However, I believe it requires so much more effort and resources to create a story driven game, that it might be to the detriment of gaming as a whole. Games naturally convey atmosphere- there's no real overhead for that. The effort required for cutscenes, mocap, dialogue, etc. can be a big part of a game's budget. Game control, music and art, which are more at the core of the experience, end up competing with other disciplines that are solely focused on storytelling.

Back when it was just text dialog and sprites, RPGs and adventure games weren't so much different from action and twitch based games which conveyed atmosphere and context through it's art and music. Modern games are like hollywood blockbusters, incorporating all sorts of expensive tech on the same level as movies, or even more bleeding edge than even that. Now we expect facial animations to take us past the uncanny valley and be absolutely lifelike. Is that really what we are looking for to elevate the experience of a video game? Not exactly, but we expect it. And developers not only have to craft a great playing game, they have to match these insanely high expectations of visual presentation on top of storytelling that matches what we expect from TV/movies. Game developers are amazing.
 

Sotha_Sil

Member
No.

Gaming as an interactive medium provides one of the best and most interesting platforms for storytelling in the modern world.

This. The ability to shape a narrative separates gaming from literature, cinema, and other arts. And better yet, there's many ways to do it in video gaming (direct, emergent, environmental, etc).

It's hard for me to enjoy games that don't do these things. To not do so is to miss out on a lot of what the medium has to offer.
 

Murtrod

Member
The lack of a strong story in Breath of the Wild made it far less motivating for me to explore around the world, so my anecdote is that this is wrong.

This is my dilemma too. I actually find myself far less motivated to finish a game without a strong narrative. I absolutely require something to progress as purpose for having played the game. This is a personal experience, but for me, narrative is indispensable in single player games.

However, it need not be a necessarily good storyline so long as its gameplay is worthwhile. I just need something to follow. I can't aimlessly play games. Even in multiplayer, I can only ever rely on friends to give it any meaning.
 

Ahasverus

Member
The Witcher proves this wrong. Without the story, it would be kinda bland. With it, it's a masterpiece for the ages.

There are good storyless games, but they're nowhere the trascendence of the complete narrative artistic works, few as they are.
 
This same guy wrote an article two years ago titles "Video Games are Better Without Characters". https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/03/video-games-are-better-without-characters/387556/

I think he kinda just doesn't like video games.

This was Ian Bogost's take on representation and identity in videogames was to restate the status quo, where he says people who aren't straight white males shouldn't care about that (he as a white dude who doesn't have to worry about identification and representation in this medium), it's selfish and self-indulgent and might have actually played a part in increasing anti-diversity gamers, and why aren't you more worried about "commercialism run amok; climate change; wealth inequality; extortionate healthcare; unfunded schools; decaying infrastructure; automation and servitude"?!

At this year’s Game Developers Conference, the educator Rosalind Wiseman and the game voice artist Ashly Burch presented results from a survey of students between the ages of 11 and 18, suggesting a marketplace exists for diverse characters that the industry is ignoring. Among their findings, less than 40 percent of high-school boys preferred to play as male characters, while 60 percent of girls preferred female ones. Wiseman and Burch encouraged developers to offer more diverse characters, noting that women and girls are more valuable customers than the industry believes. For years now, others have made similar appeals for better representation of minorities of all stripes, both in games and in game development. If we must have characters in games, let’s do make them represent the diversity of their players and of our society. And if we must make games at all, let’s see them created by developers who represent the diversity of their playership.


But, an unpopular question lingers, one that Maxis’s closure calls to mind. Why must we have characters in games at all? Or, more gently put, why have we assumed that the only or primary path to video-game diversity and sophistication lies in its representation of individuals as opposed to systems and circumstances? In truth, we’ve all but abandoned the work of systems and behaviors in favor of the work of individuals and feelings. And perhaps this is a grievous mistake.

Maybe the obsession with personal identification and representation in games is why identity politics has risen so forcefully and naively in their service online, while essentially failing to build upon prior theories and practices of social justice. And perhaps it is why some gamers have become so attached to their identity that they've been willing to burn down anything to defend it. Surely a better understanding and appreciation of these underlying systems (not the least of which involves the corporatized Internet that has offered such an effective accelerant for grotesquerie) would have raised the question of how and why the gamer identity became cherished to the point its advocates would be willing to sabotage its progress in the public imagination. Surely it would have stymied the sense of entitlement among gamers who have sought to exclude anyone—particularly women—who challenge their ideas about what games and gamers look like. The very idea of the gamer assumes that identity is predominant, even before that identity seeks either protection or expansion. And then, for everyone, games primarily become an apparatus for exercising self-identity rather than just a kind of media, like the books and magazines that filled the B. Dalton.

The assumption that games are a medium of individual identification that would provide self expression and personal validation, as Wiseman, Burch, and others hope, is an unexamined ideology. Why not ask, at least, why we should bother? Other narrative media succeed more often and more profoundly at producing identification and empathy with individuals of our own creed, color, gender, and sexual identification—or with those of other identifications. Sure, film and literature and television also have problems with representation, but their character-driven narratives match well to their forms. Yet, alas, at their best, game characters and game stories are still mostly like bad books and films and television, but with button pressing. Perhaps the only reason not to let these other media do the work they do best is if we fancy games a world unto itself, a private media ecosystem.

There’s another way to think about games. What if games’ role in representation and identity lies not in offering familiar characters for us to embody, but in helping wrest us from the temptation of personal identification entirely? What if the real fight against monocultural bias and blinkeredness does not involve the accelerated indulgence of identification, but the abdication of our own selfish, individual desires in the interest of participating in systems larger than ourselves? What if the thing games most have to show us is the higher-order domains to which we might belong, including families, neighborhoods, cities, nations, social systems, and even formal structures and patterns? What if replacing militarized male brutes with everyone’s favorite alternative identity just results in Balkanization rather than inclusion?
...
Perhaps there is warning there, within a bigger system, among a different cabal of people playing at being gods. Amidst arguments on Twitter and Reddit about whose favorite games are more valid, while we worry about the perfect distribution of bodies in our sci-fi fantasy, the big machines of global systems hulk down the roads and the waterways, indifferent. It is an extravagance to worry only about representation of our individual selves while more obvious forces threaten them with oblivion—commercialism run amok; climate change; wealth inequality; extortionate healthcare; unfunded schools; decaying infrastructure; automation and servitude. And yet, we persist, whether out of moralism or foolishness or youth, lining up for our proverbial enslavement. We’ll sign away anything, it would seem, so long as we’re still able to “express ourselves” with the makeshift tools we are rationed by the billionaires savvy enough to play the game of systems rather than the game of identities.​
 
They definitely are.

When more focus it put toward the actual game part of software, they tend to be a lot better. Neil's stance is really funny.
 
"There’s another way to think about games. What if games’ role in representation and identity lies not in offering familiar characters for us to embody, but in helping wrest us from the temptation of personal identification entirely? What if the real fight against monocultural bias and blinkeredness does not involve the accelerated indulgence of identification, but the abdication of our own selfish, individual desires in the interest of participating in systems larger than ourselves? What if the thing games most have to show us is the higher-order domains to which we might belong, including families, neighborhoods, cities, nations, social systems, and even formal structures and patterns? What if replacing militarized male brutes with everyone’s favorite alternative identity just results in Balkanization rather than inclusion?"
Damn...that sums this guy's whole outlook pretty well
 

brawly

Member
I don't know about "without stories", that's a bit extreme, but gameplay is king, yeah.

I'll take great gameplay and bad story over great story and bad gameplay any day.
 

Plum

Member
7Z0bLZ6.png

He is on point.

Whilst I definitely agree with Druckmann, putting video games into these tiny "one-size-fits-all" boxes is always terrible, it's funny to me that the image underneath comes from Everybody's Gone to the Rapture.

That game, to me, felt like the embodiment of a game that did not care for me as a player and valued itself and its rather mediocre story above all else. Something like Deadly Premonition has crap gameplay, sure, but unlike Rapture its gameplay is serviceable enough that it facilitates the player's continuation of the great story. In Rapture the snails-pace you move at (even with the most liberal example of a "run" button ever put in a game) and the terrible player guidance the game gives you made finishing less something I wanted to do and more something I felt I should do. Despite not having played the former, Gone Home and Firewatch are much better examples of so-called "walking simulators" than Dear Esther or Rapture.

That game's the worst well-known example I can think off, but there are other examples. I felt that the pacing in Uncharted 4 due its higher frequency of lengthy climbing sections made the game worse in some respects to its predecessors. The lengthy walk-and-talk sections of Metal Gear Rising are blemishes on an otherwise amazing game.

Though, we can go for days as to what constitutes "bad gameplay", but I find that, personally, when the developer's desire to tell a set story overrides respect for the player's agency to such an extent where playing your game feels like a score, it's bad storytelling and should simply be a cutscene instead.

EDIT: Image is from Edith Finch but my point still stands :)
 
should i trudge through your game just for the story when i can go on Youtube?
since everyone else focused on the rest of your post, I'm going to focus on this.

Short Answer: Because the effect is lost.

Long Answer: Video Games have become my favorite medium for telling a story by a large margin. This is not only because of games ability to tell unique stories that are only possible due to the interactive nature (non linear storytelling, mechanical storytelling etc), but because of the interactive nature itself. By being an active participant in the story, I can actually be drawn in and truly care about the events in a way that just doesn't happen when I read a book or watch a movie. Sure I could watch a youtube lets play of the game and know the story, but the enjoyment of it would be greatly diminished. The effect is lost.

Struggling to crawl through the microwave corridor in MGS4 just isnt the same if you arent holding the controller.
 
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