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Ok GAF lets battle it out. Which franchise is better F-Zero or Wipeout

Pick yours


Results are only viewable after voting.

Skyzard

Banned
Well, in F-Zero X and GX, if you press left, the craft goes to the left immediately. If you do the same in Wipeout, it rotates to the left, goes a bit to the right and only much later really goes to the left. In a sense, Wipeout is immediate in the sense that there is a visible reaction to your button press, but it is absolutely not direct when it comes to controlling where the vehicle is going. Even if you like this kind of indirectness, it has serious implications towards the track design and the gameplay, because super quick reactions to the track are not possible, which limits the adrenaline rush and the arcade-style twitch-reaction to situations.

By the way, I did not want to downplay the difficulty of Wipeout with my posting regarding F-Zero. I have played maybe 50 hours total of Wipeout games and have not fully beaten a Wipeout game, it would be unfair to comment on its top difficulty. But no matter how difficult it is, I have played to completions hundreds of games and several hundered more games far enough to be sure of their top difficulty and F-Zero GX is the absolute top of all of them (next to Monkey Ball if you disregard time attack, alone if not), so even if Wipeout managed to be more difficult (which could really only be by a tiny bit), to call F-Zero GX anything but super tough is either a sign of not knowing the game or pretense.

That's why it's more difficult though. The speed ramps up and that momentum shifting stays relevant, so you have to be fully aware of how your vehicle is going to move at insane speeds, with tight ass track designs. It's tough as nails. And there is a shit tonne of super fast twitch reactions - you need to be processing in your head how your ship is doing in the space around it at full blast, overclocking your analysis and fine tuning your inputs like nothing else.

F-Zero in comparison is kind of like those old dodgem toys where you move left and right to dodge incoming vehicles. The physics are super simplified by comparison so that you can focus on sliding left and right... sure it gets fast and hard, and you have to focus on a clean line through the track but...wipeout does that while taking into consideration momentum... that's why it feels like a sim. You're constantly planning ahead not just the track but how your momentum is shifting along it. F-Zero is much more chilled. Still fun, and fast, but your brain isn't melting.

It's like you're sitting in the cockpit, fully responsible for the control of the vehicle. It feels a lot less arcade. I get some people like arcade, I like it too, but there's very little like wipeout.

And if you want to reach immortal speeds, there's Zone mode.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
F-Zero has a spectacular single game in GX and a series of middling games.


Half of the Wipeout lineup is great to amazing, though...so Wipeout easily wins this.
 
I would say F-Zero is the Ridge Racer of AG racing and WipEout is the Gran Turismo...

I like them all but do have a genre preference!

I don't understand people who don't think WipEout has direct controls though.

Exactly. In that aspect, they clearly appeal to different people.

Well, in F-Zero X and GX, if you press left, the craft goes to the left immediately. If you do the same in Wipeout, it rotates to the left, goes a bit to the right and only much later really goes to the left. In a sense, Wipeout is immediate in the sense that there is a visible reaction to your button press, but it is absolutely not direct when it comes to controlling where the vehicle is going. Even if you like this kind of indirectness, it has serious implications towards the track design and the gameplay, because super quick reactions to the track are not possible, which limits the adrenaline rush and the arcade-style twitch-reaction to situations.

By the way, I did not want to downplay the difficulty of Wipeout with my posting regarding F-Zero. I have played maybe 50 hours total of Wipeout games and have not fully beaten a Wipeout game, it would be unfair to comment on its top difficulty. But no matter how difficult it is, I have played to completions hundreds of games and several hundered more games far enough to be sure of their top difficulty and F-Zero GX is the absolute top of all of them (next to Monkey Ball if you disregard time attack, alone if not), so even if Wipeout managed to be more difficult (which could really only be by a tiny bit), to call F-Zero GX anything but super tough is either a sign of not knowing the game or pretense.

Thats called the difference between have no realistic physics and having some (though your accounting of the vehicle dynamics in Wipeout is incorrect).
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Just because one is an arcade racer an the other is not doesn't mean one game play is better or worse. Difference!! Why would i want clones when i van have different experiences, even if i enjoy more one over the other?
I also prefer a more direct arcade feeling, but i am sure that driving in the air if that exists, maybe drones?, Wipeout could be considered more real somehow

Well this whole topic is a matter of opinion, right? As soon as games are reasonably different to each other, it is nearly impossible to find an objective argument why one is better than the other and F-Zero & Wipeout are far enough detached from each other that I think an objective comparison is impossible (since both games are technically sound, so obvious comparison points are hard to pin point or come down to opinion again, when comparing framerates).

Personally, I feel that realism is of absolutely no worth whatsoever, so if Wipeout is more realistic (Maybe it is? The extreme directness of F-Zero would probably be very hard to obtain.) it has no bearing on my enjoyment. However, in F-Zero it is absolutely clear, whenever you fail, right from the start, you did so because you are a bad player, no knowledge of anything required, because you can go to the left or right in an instant. For Wipeout, this is not entirely true, because of the time it takes to correct the course properly. Of course, foresight is important here, but learning the tracks is not even theoretically optional, whereas in F-Zero you always have all information present that is required to succeed, even without any prior knowledge of the track. This (mostly) held even for F-Zero X's X Cup.
 
F-Zero has a spectacular single game in GX and a series of middling games.


Half of the Wipeout lineup is great to amazing, though...so Wipeout easily wins this.

Keep seeing this sentiment. Not sure where it came from. F-Zero X is amazingly good. I could see not liking the Mode 6 titles, but IMO those are pretty great too. Have enjoyed the speed runs on AGDQ. GX is the best of the bunch, but I don't really feel like there is a bad title in there.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
That's why it's more difficult though. The speed ramps up and that momentum shifting stays relevant, so you have to be fully aware of how your vehicle is going to move at insane speeds, with tight ass track designs. It's tough as nails. And there is a shit tonne of super fast twitch reactions - you need to be processing in your head how your ship is doing in the space around it at full blast, overclocking your analysis and fine tuning your inputs like nothing else.

F-Zero in comparison is kind of like those old dodgem toys where you move left and right to dodge incoming vehicles. The physics are super simplified by comparison so that you can focus on sliding left and right... sure it gets fast and hard, and you have to focus on a clean line through the track but...wipeout does that while taking into consideration momentum... that's why it feels like a sim. You're constantly planning ahead not just the track but how your momentum is shifting along it.

It's like you're sitting in the cockpit, fully responsible for the control of the vehicle. It feels a lot less arcade. I get some people like arcade, I like it too, but there's very little like wipeout.

And if you want to reach immortal speeds, there's Zone mode.
I mostly agree with your analysis, though I would call Wipeout more complex rather than more difficult in that regard, because yes, you need to plan ahead with it more to be able to control it properly and F-Zero (G)X is much arcadier. Though I do not agree with the assessment in the end, I think the supremely fast, easy-to-learn-hard-to-master arcade sensibilities make F-Zero (G)X the two best racing games ever created, with an incredibly huge lead over everything else.
 

tzare

Member
Well this whole topic is a matter of opinion, right? As soon as games are reasonably different to each other, it is nearly impossible to find an objective argument why one is better than the other and F-Zero & Wipeout are far enough detached from each other that I think an objective comparison is impossible (since both games are technically sound, so obvious comparison points are hard to pin point or come down to opinion again, when comparing framerates).

Personally, I feel that realism is of absolutely no worth whatsoever, so if Wipeout is more realistic (Maybe it is? The extreme directness of F-Zero would probably be very hard to obtain.) it has no bearing on my enjoyment. However, in F-Zero it is absolutely clear, whenever you fail, right from the start, you did so because you are a bad player, no knowledge of anything required, because you can go to the left or right in an instant. For Wipeout, this is not entirely true, because of the time it takes to correct the course properly. Of course, foresight is important here, but learning the tracks is not even theoretically optional, whereas in F-Zero you always have all information present that is required to succeed, even without any prior knowledge of the track. This (mostly) held even for F-Zero X's X Cup.
Of course it is all opinions and subjective. And that is the reason the comments downplaying one or the other, comments like it is not even close, in my humble opinion, feel arrogant, add nothing to the discussion but consolewars fuel.

The games are quite different, handle different, have been designed different and only share in common the setting. Like comparing Mario kart with F1.

But i guess sometimes Gaf isn't that far away from gamefaqs or YouTube comments after all.
 

Fiendcode

Member
F-Zero has a spectacular single game in GX and a series of middling games.


Half of the Wipeout lineup is great to amazing, though...so Wipeout easily wins this.
X and the original F-Zero were pretty spectacular too. Far from middling and I'd say both hold up better today than the PS1 era Wipeouts.
 

JamboGT

Member
Take out the original WipEout and Fusion and every other game in the lineup holds up to me. Both in how they play and their aesthetic.
 

tzare

Member
X and the original F-Zero were pretty spectacular too. Far from middling and I'd say both hold up better today than the PS1 era Wipeouts.
Original fzero not so much. I'd love a remake made with poligonal ships and tracks, very simple, clean.

I'd buy a switch for that
 

Fraeon

Member
Funnily enough, it's the items that bring Wipeout down for me compared to F-Zero. I think Wipeout would be a better series without them.

I really enjoy the Zone mode but F-Zero GX it is not.
 

FinalAres

Member
Take out the original WipEout and Fusion and every other game in the lineup holds up to me. Both in how they play and their aesthetic.
Yeah, whilst WipeoutHD is u uber tier, 2097 and Wip3out (which I still read as whip three out) are just as good today as they were. They hold up better than most games of the N64/ps1 era.
 

Fiendcode

Member
Original fzero not so much. I'd love a remake made with poligonal ships and tracks, very simple, clean.

I'd buy a switch for that
The spritework is partially why it holds up so well. Plus EAD killing it on the SPC700.

Take out the original WipEout and Fusion and every other game in the lineup holds up to me. Both in how they play and their aesthetic.
How about 64? lol
 

Skyzard

Banned
Man... I just loaded it up in dolphin to remind myself...and god there just isn't any competition. F-zero isn't even that fast and it's so damn simple sliding left and right too...it's kind of insulting to even compare it to wipeout.

I'm not joking or trying to piss fans off.

Your minds are gonna be blown when you get redout! I think it strikes the right balance for people who aren't into super physics and involved controls but want a bit more. It's really good fun and a little more arcade than wipeout...but not to a ridiculous degree like f-zero.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
X and the original F-Zero were pretty spectacular too. Far from middling and I'd say both hold up better today than the PS1 era Wipeouts.
Neither of them hold up better than Wip3out which was on the PS1

F-Zero didn't really hold up even on its original hardware, but I've never been a fan of mode7 racing-style games (hate is a closer term for how I feel about them. this even extends to me hating Sonic CD's bonus stages for forcing me through that bullshit).

F-Zero X actually stands up as a party game due to the multiplayer but the arcade racing wasn't even the best on the N64. I'd rank both Extreme G and Wipeout64 over it, when it comes to the racing.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
Man... I just loaded it up in dolphin to remind myself...and god there just isn't any competition. F-zero isn't even that fast and it's so damn simple sliding left and right too...it's kind of insulting to even compare it to wipeout.

I'm not joking or trying to piss fans off.

Your minds are gonna be blown when you get redout! I think it strikes the right balance for people who aren't into super physics and involved controls but want a more. It's really good fun and a little more arcade than wipeout...but not to a ridiculous degree like f-zero.

Racing games cannot be too arcady, so if I wanted more than F-Zero it would have to be more arcady!

Now that you have loaded it up on Dolphin, play Mute City on Time Trial and beat the ghost. Then tell us how easy it was.
 

woopWOOP

Member
Only played a bit of the first WipeOut on that PS1 demo disc, but I never really liked how floaty the controls were

Also F-Zero X is great just because of that one cup that has randomised tracks. Seeing the other 29 racers crash off course because the AI didn't know how to deal with its own generated tracks was hilarious
 
Keep seeing this sentiment. Not sure where it came from. F-Zero X is amazingly good. I could see not liking the Mode 6 titles, but IMO those are pretty great too. Have enjoyed the speed runs on AGDQ. GX is the best of the bunch, but I don't really feel like there is a bad title in there.

Indeed.

The OG F-Zero is amazing considering the time. And F-Zero X is god tier. Incredibly fast, incredibly fun, and awesome music.
 

RooMHM

Member
Man... I just loaded it up in dolphin to remind myself...and god there just isn't any competition. F-zero isn't even that fast and it's so damn simple sliding left and right too...it's kind of insulting to even compare it to wipeout.
Please...
F-Zero is faster than wipeout and it has moves. Drifting or snaking techniques is what makes F-zero rise above. In a sense it's close to a a fighting game.
Yes it's arcady because it's a twitch game which Wipeout isn't.
 
Man... I just loaded it up in dolphin to remind myself...and god there just isn't any competition. F-zero isn't even that fast and it's so damn simple sliding left and right too...it's kind of insulting to even compare it to wipeout.

I'm not joking or trying to piss fans off.

Your minds are gonna be blown when you get redout! I think it strikes the right balance for people who aren't into super physics and involved controls but want a bit more. It's really good fun and a little more arcade than wipeout...but not to a ridiculous degree like f-zero.

Speed only results in you needing faster reactions. Having vehicle dynamics results in the player needed intuition and tactics. Wipeout in its higher zones adds all three, which is why its so rare to see people complete them.

There seems to be several Wipeout spiritual successors lately: Formula Fusion, Redout and there's a fan made one was well.
 

Skyzard

Banned
Racing games cannot be too arcady, so if I wanted more than F-Zero it would have to be more arcady!

Now that you have loaded it up on Dolphin, play Mute City on Time Trial and beat the ghost. Then tell us how easy it was.

Hmm I don't see a ghost... it says nothing available. Do I need to beat the grand prix to unlock it?

Any idea what the time was? For the Ruby cup mute city, right? There's other ones here...

This was my first attempt for the ruby cup one:

Q7ODwsS.jpg


I beat zico (wipeout hd trophy), this is gonna be a cake walk!
 

FinalAres

Member
Please...
F-Zero is faster than wipeout and it has moves. Drifting or snaking techniques is what makes F-zero rise above. In a sense it's close to a a fighting game.
Yes it's arcady because it's a twitch game which Wipeout isn't.
I've gone in to some detail already about how much depth is in Wipeout, which is why people call it technical, or a sim. But that doesn't mean F-Zero is easy or a press X to complete. Being like a fighting is a good analogy. I'd still say Wipeout tops it for gameplay though. There's so much going on, it's a really fulfilling experience. It's like the difference between Devil May Cry and Dark Souls. Which is clearly not an insult to either series!
 

Spman2099

Member
Wipeout is a bit like Crash Bandicoot and CTR in that they're pretty average but because PlayStation only gamers can't play FZero, Mario or Mario Kart they're suddenly amazing and completely over rated.

You are a bad person...

However, F-Zero is CLEARLY the winner. Not because Wipeout isn't a really cool series, but because F-Zero is awesome. The SNES game still has one of the best soundtracks in a game. Great stuff.
 

Fiendcode

Member
Neither of them hold up better than Wip3out which was on the PS1

F-Zero didn't really hold up even on its original hardware, but I've never been a fan of mode7 racing-style games (hate is a closer term for how I feel about them. this even extends to me hating Sonic CD's bonus stages for forcing me through that bullshit).

F-Zero X actually stands up as a party game due to the multiplayer but the arcade racing wasn't even the best on the N64. I'd rank both Extreme G and Wipeout64 over it, when it comes to the racing.
I can understand not enjoying mode 7 or horizon scrolling racers. They're a different beast but all the same F-Zero was like a revelation in 1991.

GX is basically X with a new coat of paint, a story mode and a higher learning curve towards the end. I'm not sure how you love one and not the other. It's also one of the few 60fps racers that gen, making it still incredibly playable today. I definitely think it holds up better than all the 5th gen Wipeouts or most 5th gen console racers.
 

Kneefoil

Member
Hmm I don't see a ghost... it says nothing available. Do I need to beat the grand prix to unlock it?

Any idea what the time was? For the Ruby league mute city right?

This was my first attempt:

Q7ODwsS.jpg


I beat zico (wipeout hd trophy), this is gonna be a cake walk!

You should be able to unlock the staff ghost by getting a time that's 10 seconds or less away from its time. According to GameFAQs the ghost's time in that particular level is 00'59"964.

But yeah, there are like 3 different Mute Cities in the game.
 

icy_eagle

Member
Hmm I don't see a ghost... it says nothing available. Do I need to beat the grand prix to unlock it?

Any idea what the time was? For the Ruby cup mute city, right? There's other ones here...

This was my first attempt for the ruby cup one:

I beat zico (wipeout hd trophy), this is gonna be a cake walk!

So you didn't even do well enough to unlock the ghost lol
 
F-Zero has a spectacular single game in GX and a series of middling games.


Half of the Wipeout lineup is great to amazing, though...so Wipeout easily wins this.

I was just going to post this. F-Zero is like Starfox, where when people say they like Starfox, for the most part they mean they like Starfox 64, and the rest of the series ranges from OK to mediocre.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
You should be able to unlock the staff ghost by getting a time that's 10 seconds or less away from its time. According to GameFAQs the ghost's time in that particular level is 00'59"964.

But yeah, there are like 3 different Mute Cities in the game.

Yes, I meant this Mute City level. Other than that, yes, this is how to unlock ghosts.
 

Fiendcode

Member
I was just going to post this. F-Zero is like Starfox, where when people say they like Starfox, for the most part they mean they like Starfox 64, and the rest of the series ranges from OK to mediocre.
I like SF1 more than 64. It's tougher, no boring free roam stages and has a way better soundtrack.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
I can understand not enjoying mode 7 or horizon scrolling racers. They're a different beast but all the same F-Zero was like a revelation in 1991.

GX is basically X with a new coat of paint, a story mode and a higher learning curve towards the end. I'm not sure how you love one and not the other. It's also one of the few 60fps racers that gen, making it still incredibly playable today. I definitely think it holds up better than all the 5th gen Wipeouts or most 5th gen console racers.
GX has substantially better controls, track design, and gameplay even at the lowest skill levels.
 

Skyzard

Banned
You should be able to unlock the staff ghost by getting a time that's 10 seconds or less away from its time. According to GameFAQs the ghost's time in that particular level is 00'59"964.

But yeah, there are like 3 different Mute Cities in the game.

Thanks.

So you didn't even do well enough to unlock the ghost lol

Pfft, I tried it a few more times and got perfect lines but still about 10.5 seconds off...no way to do this without a special technique... I looked it up and sure enough, there's snaking in f-zero -_-

Yes, I meant this Mute City level. Other than that, yes, this is how to unlock ghosts.

Snaking!
 

nkarafo

Member
F-Zero (especially F-Zero X).

Wipeout loses because it has power ups and weapons. In F-Zero you use your driving skills to knock out other opponents while risking yours. That feels more rewarding and badass.

Also Metal/Rock > Techno/Trance.


Wrong on all 3 counts. X is actually the tighter game.
True.

GX also messed the attack maneuver that you could use in X to "jump" into tight turns very fast.
 

Yoshi

Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt

Well yes, you can use a glitch to make it easier, but is that a good assessment for the difficulty? The ghost does not snake and snaking is not required to beat the ghost, let alone unlock it.

EDIT: To make this clearer: Every ghost in the game can be unlocked and beaten without ever snaking.
 

Shaneus

Member
Fair enough - the company logo was always "Studio Liverpool", so that's what I've stuck with. Didn't realise it went under a different moniker. I miss their F1 games.
Their F1 games, while published by Psygnosis, were actually developed by Bizarre Creations. The team behind Metropolis Street Racer, Project Gotham and Blur :)


They are
. Kind of. They still do regular work for Warp records.
They're actually doing work for the new AG racer by (mostly) ex-Studio Liverpool staffers called Formula Fusion.
10703635_806407289381801_2483366976202229290_n.jpg

1979712_806407252715138_7846242704792282384_n.jpg

10369876_806407249381805_7712345239481897795_n.jpg


Not quite as solid as the OG Wipeout designs, but still quite cool.
 
Hmm I don't see a ghost... it says nothing available. Do I need to beat the grand prix to unlock it?

Any idea what the time was? For the Ruby cup mute city, right? There's other ones here...

This was my first attempt for the ruby cup one:

Q7ODwsS.jpg


I beat zico (wipeout hd trophy), this is gonna be a cake walk!

Probably lol
That trophy is a pain
 

Rajang

Member
I started with F-Zero on SNES but I think Wipeout is far better. WipeoutHD/Fury is better than any F-Zero game. I also think the Wipeout series was far more consistent.
 

Skyzard

Banned
Well yes, you can use a glitch to make it easier, but is that a good assessment for the difficulty? The ghost does not snake and snaking is not required to beat the ghost, let alone unlock it.

EDIT: To make this clearer: Every ghost in the game can be unlocked and beaten without ever snaking.

Ok good, I must be using the wrong ship then...let me have a look.
 

JamboGT

Member
Their F1 games, while published by Psygnosis, were actually developed by Bizarre Creations. The team behind Metropolis Street Racer, Project Gotham and Blur :)


They're actually doing work for the new AG racer by (mostly) ex-Studio Liverpool staffers called Formula Fusion.
7635ba_e4d2144753474a7096f874b417a8eddc~mv2.png_srz_980_407_85_22_0.50_1.20_0.00_png_srz

Only F1 and F1 97 were Bizarre Creations games, published by Psygnosis. Am not sure who worked on the ones in between but from 2001 it was in house Studio Liverpool.
 
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