Fenderputty
Banned
He's the biggest antagonist the series knows. He's worse than the Guilty Remnant.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The Leftovers S3 |OT| The End Is Near - Premieres Sunday 4/16, 9pm on HBO
- Thread starter bodyofanamerican
- Start date
He's the biggest antagonist the series knows. He's worse than the Guilty Remnant.
John Harker
Definitely doesn't make things up as he goes along.
There were many parallels to Nora and Laurie's journeys, both ended with an offer of closure through suicide - Nora has been chasing it for awhile, Laurie hiding from it - its riveting to see the final choices they both make. I'm unclear yet if I believe Nora would go into the suicide box or if Laurie "turns the valve the wrong way." Both had their "family moment" right before though, Jill with the phone call and Matt with the whole "I'll stay by your side during."
I can't watch "next time on" for the show, id rather be surprised haha
Anyone have a link to a fan theory of what really could be going on? Reason I ask is I have a small daughter and even though I watch every week it's easy to get distracted with her wanting daddy time. I don't have the time to really concentrate like I did on the past like a show like lost where I picked up every little detail lol.
I'd like to go into the last two episodes really primed with a better understanding.
I'd like to go into the last two episodes really primed with a better understanding.
ThLunarian
Member
That's a super vague question. If you're asking about a theory for why the departure happened, that's never getting answered.
If that's not your question, then what are you asking?
Theory might not have been the right word. Recaps maybe? Grantland used too and the Ringer now does weekly recaps on Game of Thrones that really help connect the dots and discuss the story lines in depth. Didn't know if anything like that existed for this that is any good.
An example of my problem is my daughter distracted me during the therapy session in the beginning and i was super confused of the timeline. My wife had to tell me that is was two years after the departure.
This is 1st world problems lol. I love my daughter and she's more important than a dumb show. But I'd have time to read recaps at work
ThLunarian
Member
Alan Sepinwall and AVClub do reviews of each episode. They tend to focus on the deeper below the surface stuff, though, and may not be the best if you're just looking for a summary of events. If that's what you want, maybe Wikipedia?
No that would work. I have a few hours a day during production at work where I can listen to a podcast. Thanks! I'll look it up. I'm assuming it's a podcast
blame space
Banned
Brooklyn_Moods
Neo Member
This needs to be the intro song for next week, and the final one should be Rick Astley's Never gonna give you up, just cause.
Tranqueris
Banned
Just watched it again, I think the
thing is sort of justified or at least explained when she's talking about
Laurie
Judas and Michael interrupts her and tells her that Judas killed himself and he's not really sure why he did it.
Sorry, but I'm not sure how that qualifies as an explanation...
ThLunarian
Member
The world had changed into something that no longer made any sense to Laurie. She didn't know how to function in it. You could see this in the opening scene, soon after the departure. She had no idea what to tell her patient. Her impulse to kill herself has been there since that scene, but she kept trying to do things to recontextualize her world so that it might make sense again. Join the GR. Help people get out of the GR once she realized they were a bunch of looneys. Try and help people grieve. Be a rational mind to defuse all the irrational insanity going on around her.
Ultimately none of it worked. After all that, the world didn't make any more sense to her than it had at the beginning, and in fact had only grown more foreign and incomprehensible (the craziness with the 7 year anniversary).
She reached a point where she couldn't take it anymore, so she just let go and gave up.
You forgot his most important mission....figuring out where the fuck those kids shoes went.
Oh yeah, shit, I knew there was something else. Good luck, Kev!
MugiwaraCole
Member
This may be the saddest bit of television I've ever watched in my life.
There are only two episodes left? They're not doing 10?
There are only two episodes left? They're not doing 10?
That didn't even occur to me! She hijacks the machine, goes through... and nothing happens. Haha, sounds about right.
As MegaSackman said earlier, I think it's more that Laurie feels she isn't in a world that belongs to her anymore. She had the answers as a therapist, then the rapture happened and she didn't, joined the Guilty Remnant for answers, didn't really find any, and then went into a world of exploiting those that want answers. So now she's surrounded by people that want answers, and she believes there never can be an answer. She found her closure, and her speaking with Kevin at the end of the episode was the ultimate closure. They shared their little secrets, and are ready to depart themselves.
hey_monkey
Banned
Also, re Laurie changing... when she tried to commit suicide before, when she joined the GR, those were bold, fuck you moves, letter or no. They leave others questioning - that was so much of Jill, in general - why is my mom doing this? And Laurie didn't care until she came out of it. But she changed from Laurie the shrink and she kept changing, developing, but still pretty nihilistic. After the conversation with Nora, though, and everything mentioned above? Dying while scuba diving gives her family the best closure she could offer. It's an accident. No one has to wonder. It's like the most normal fucking thing happening right now. Just a weird little accidental death you can grieve normally.
Just re-watched this episode and I have to say it was astounding.
Laurie's acting was phenomenal just so Pitch Perfect and on point the whole episode.
the conversation with Kevin was great scene with her and Nora on the hill, very touching.
someone tell me did I miss somewhere along the way when she was looking at the sonogram did her fetus depart from inside of her ?
Laurie's acting was phenomenal just so Pitch Perfect and on point the whole episode.
the conversation with Kevin was great scene with her and Nora on the hill, very touching.
someone tell me did I miss somewhere along the way when she was looking at the sonogram did her fetus depart from inside of her ?
But why now? If the issue is her finding out about John believing in that "book of Kevin" thing (although he said himself he was willing to let go of that if she just asked), why not just leave him?
I'm sure her kids won't have any questions about how she died in a scuba diving accident on the 7th anniversary of the departure, right after they called her, and without even telling them she was in Australia, not even when her daughter asked... No mystery there, clearly.
ThLunarian
Member
Because she was depressed, miserable, and confused for the entire run of the series, and finally ran out of willpower to keep fighting. I'm sure the thing with John was only a small part of that.
It even makes narrative sense. Her depression was triggered by the departure, and things have only ramped up recently rather than getting better, making her depression worse. She received closure with her ex, and had a chance to hear her kids' voices one more time. She said goodbye to Nora. She manages to avoid all the madness that the 7th anniversary has the potential to bring.
Maybe she didn't get closure with John, but overall it was a good note for her to go out on.
Well, that was some great timing, then.
She had plenty of opportunities for doing all that for years though.
I'd say she spectacularly failed on that front, actually. As you just said, "things have only ramped up recently", because, well, she actually waited until the very day of the anniversary! Just one more day, and things would have blown over considerably (or not, and it would have been the end of the world, so suicide or not... but it didn't look like she was a "believer").
ThLunarian
Member
And? This was the point when she ran out of the strength and desire to keep going. Prior to now, she had been fighting and struggling to make sense of everything. This was the turning point where she couldn't (and didn't want to) fight anymore.
Not only is this a thing that happens all the time in real life to real people, it also makes narrative sense. At no other point in the story would it have ever made as much sense for her to end it as it does now.
Is your complaint that it should have happened sooner, or that it shouldn't have happened at all? Because it's pretty easy to argue against either of those complaints.
That's... one hell of a claim. I remember she almost got her own daughter killed, back in season 1.
It's that it only seems to happen because the series is ending.
(well, if it did happen, that is... I wouldn't put it past them to reveal she's fine after all!)
ThLunarian
Member
Yeah, and that was a wake up call for her to reevaluate her life choices and see if maybe there was something else she ought to try that didn't involve joining a cult. But at that point, she was still not done fighting. So, no suicide yet.
In a meta sense and a roundabout way, sure, it is because the series is ending. When a series ends, the writers try to wrap up character arcs. For Laurie, the best way to conclude her character arc was through suicide, and it makes sense based on everything she had been through and done up to now.
And now, she's done fighting. Because... she's done fighting? And there were no indications at all that she was at the end of her rope in the previous episodes, but never mind that?
While I guess "looks like we've reached the end of our journey because, as it turns out, we're out of gas" might work in real life, I'd expect a bit more from a story, and I just don't see much of anything to justify that development, here. Aside from, again, the show nearing its end.
Well, I really don't know about "the best" (and I'm not entirely comfortable talking about "character arcs" when they barely seem to evolve), but killing characters off sure is an easy way to "resolve" plotlines...
She was talking about herself obviously. Someone that goes around and ruins the fun for everyone else. Which is literally the job she chose.
Byakuya769
Member
I enjoy the show, but I'm definitely with Erigu on this Laurie situation.
ThLunarian
Member
She was trying to find meaning in this crazy, foreign world by helping people heal and return to normalcy. The seven year anniversary has led to everyone around her getting worse and acting crazier (in her worldview), rather than getting better. She was not succeeding in her efforts to restore the world back to what it used to be (or at least closer). This realization is what pushed her over the edge and made her decide to give up.
While I'd sympathize with anybody living in a world written by Lindelof and trying to find meaning in it ("they can't heal because they're dealing with an entirely new kind of grief, a magical Super Grief!")... do her children not count, then?
ThLunarian
Member
Jill was far away at college, and Michael is as deluded and messed up as anyone.
Tommy might be okay but we haven't seen much of him so it's hard to say.
Yes, her kids were a bright spot in her world, but that fact wasn't enough for her to stick around. Again, it happens in real life too, and it's also not narratively inconsistent.
People with children are not immune to suicide or suicidal thoughts.
Well, simply going by what the writers had happen in the end, I guess it clearly wasn't, no...
Again, lots of crazy shit happen all the time in real life, but that doesn't mean it all makes for a good story.
I don't know about that one, really.
That episode sure laid it on thick when it came to showing that she didn't care about anything anymore ("oh, you want to kill my ex-husband? okay, then. no, go ahead, John, really! that should be good for you... last week, I was all about helping, but on second thought, fuck that"), but one would have expected something before that, some signs that she was in agonizing pain, that she was likely to relapse into a Guilty Remnant-esque worldview, and I didn't see anything.
Instead, I get the feeling the writers thought they could get away with such a sudden development simply by showing a flashback of her attempting suicide before the show even began, and singing about suicide during the opening credits. "It doesn't really come out of nowhere, now, right?"
Also, assuming she did kill herself, I wonder what the writers' thought process was when they decided to add that phone call in the final scene. "Oh, it'll be such a gut punch when viewers will think "hey, that's right: her kids!", but she ends up killing herself anyway! Boom!"? I know some people do kill themselves and leave confused children behind, but the writers haven't done nearly enough to establish their character's agony to go there, so that phone call? Crass.
As ridiculously manipulative as that scene would end up being in retrospect if she turned out to be alive for yet another slapdash "family is everything!" season finale - and boy, that would be something alright -, it would still make a tiny bit more sense to me to have the character change her mind because of that unexpected phone call. Maybe I'm too old school for Lindelof's style.
I know, but see above: this is a story. I would be a lot more accepting of that development if the writers had done some actual work to get us to this point.
digitalrelic
Banned
So as we all know, you've been very negative on The Leftovers from the beginning. With that said, I'm kind of with you here and I'm not sure I'm sold on Laurie killing herself. There were no signs leading up to this episode that would suggest that Laurie was suicidal. It felt really sudden and uncharacteristic of her character, in my eyes. A flashback showing a failed suicide attempt to start the episode doesn't change that. There needed to be a buildup from past episodes and seasons that would lead to this ending of her character arc.
BUT, honestly, and I've been meaning to ask this... We all know what you don't like about The Leftovers, but as we're nearing the closure of this show, I thought it'd be cool to hear what you DO like. Can you share some positives thoughts you've had on the show?
I don't imagine that will surprise you, but I can't think of much right now, frankly...
Recently, I thought the "God" character from last week was amusing, and that last scene between him and Matt had some good moments, so I guess there's that? As with Lost, I find that there may be some moments, some bits that are "alright", or even "good" on their own, but they tend to fall apart when you start considering the overall context / rest of the show...
hey_monkey
Banned
This idea that her kids, her new marriage, or anything else would just cure Laurie is just kind of ignorant about mental illness. I'm not saying the writers are paragons in presenting images of mental illness, but everything Laurie goes through is a series of attempts to find coping mechanisms (clearly she'd lost faith in medical solutions, considering)... and she didn't. People around her are literally trying to create some Jesus shit. Stop and think for a second how weird that is, how point-of-no-return it might feel when things were already fucked. And how normal it is in the context of this show. The day to day life of Miracle, the way the departure has been embedded in every aspect of life we've seen....
But there's a point at which you can't really argue. Alternate worlds/versions/visions all fall apart at some point if you pick too hard.
But there's a point at which you can't really argue. Alternate worlds/versions/visions all fall apart at some point if you pick too hard.
LiquidSword
Member
I wonder if there will be a heartbreaking moment in the next episode about that or if they won't address it. I think we all know what happened to those kids shoes
digitalrelic
Banned
Can I ask what your favorite shows/movies are?
Fenderputty
Banned
Dat phone call at the end with her Children did not make it a good note to go out on. It was a reminder that she's leaving people behind and that her possible death was wholly selfish.
Like I get she was trying to fill her life with things to make it worthwhile, but she was looking in the wrong places. Her Kids were there the whole time.
That doesn't make me feel sympathy. It makes me feel like she's selfish.
LiquidSword
Member
I don't think that phone call really even happened. The fantastical nature of it I think was intentional. Jill calls her right at that moment and is with Tom and they are super happy and laughing and just calling to find out about a show they watched as a kid. Also the way boat captain was like "Hey! You ready?" And she looked like she was day dreaming. Is fantasizing about someone calling you before you do it something thats reported from suicide survivors?
Fenderputty
Banned
This might be the case, but she still would have experienced the event.
Prior to that, she gave Jill's lighter away so she was clearly trying to separate herself from her kids as she was leaving. The phone call was a reminder just before she was about to go into the water.
LiquidSword
Member
Yeah the message the show is sending right now is making me super uncomfortable (probably is the point), but I'm guessing that the next two episodes are going to recontextulize this one a little bit.
I've seen a couple posters say stuff about her reason is that the world just isn't for her anymore, everyone around her is going crazy, etc. but depressed and suicidal people feel like that in real life without 2 percent of people vanishing so that's not a valid reason for suicide as there is no valid reason.
Those posts also made me think about in International assassin, patti says to Kevin, "On the 14th it became cosmiclly abundantly clear that anyone o can be taken away at any time." Something that is also already true without 2 percent of people vanashing.
Fenderputty
Banned
I think the one thing that separates a normal death from the vanishing is that, there's no closure. It's like a persistent state of grieving for those who lost someone. This is reinforced constantly. So I get why suicide might be a path out of that state for some. I think that if Laurie did kill herself, it would make sense following this logic. Eventually someone breaks. It would just mean she's a horribly selfish person. You could argue her constant state of grief creates an inability for her to contextualize what's important I suppose, but I'm not really sure that makes her position one we should sympathize over.
I didn't quite say that. The problem is that the show did show us that she had kids, that she had recently re-married, that she had a new life in Jarden, and did nothing to show us that she was at the end of her rope until, well, she killed herself this week. That's a bit of a problem. Kind of a hard sell, if you will, storytelling-wise.
Well, she seemed to be doing okay until this week, at least...
Also, as I've already mentioned, I have a problem with this idea the show keeps pushing, that those people are entirely unequipped to deal with the seeming randomness of the Departure or the fact they don't know if their loved ones are still "out there" or not. That lack of closure isn't something exclusive to that fictional world, it really isn't anything new. We've had senseless deaths and missing persons for quite some time, now. Not that everybody manages to get over something like that, naturally, but the show makes it seem absolutely impossible: "we're all gone", "we're all broken", etc.
It's even weirder to see the show try and sell the idea that people would massively gravitate toward nihilism (even the kind that makes you dress all in white, write everything down and play cruel pranks on people) when there is something new about the Departure. We're not talking about a bunch of people getting randomly zapped by cosmic rays. Since only human beings departed (no other living creature, animal or even primate) and they, amazingly enough, did so with their clothes (yet not their baby seat nor anything else they were in contact with, judging from the first episode of the show), one has to assume it was caused by something intelligent that cares about mankind specifically. That's a pretty big fucking deal that should seriously embolden religious people (sure, we don't know why those were picked over others, but gods "work in mysterious ways", don't they?) and wreak havoc among atheists... but nope, nihilism it is, "nothing matters anymore, waaah". What the...?
I never really know what to answer to that, as I like a whole bunch of stuff, actually, believe it or not! Plus, I generally find myself unable to grade these things. Depends on the mood of the moment, really.
Just off the top of my head / my recently viewed threads, and since we recently talked about character arcs and I think the term actually fits in that instance, I'm enjoying Better Call Saul quite a bit.
I even felt bad for that guy on the boat. No, I'm not convinced that's the best suicide method, Nora. That seems about as "good" as jumping in front of a train. Could be an accident, definitely will fuck with the driver.
I guess it comes down to why you watch the show if you aren't a fan of it. Since there's only two left, I can see seeing it through to the end, but at the same time, Lindelof isn't a voice you like, and if it's not for you, that's okay!
It's also a little weird that we're arguing over why someone killed themselves now rather than at a different point in time, haha.
Fenderputty
Banned
The only reason one would want to make suicide look like an accident is that they don't want to be seen as a selfish person too. It's the epitome of "having one's cake and eating it too".